Sending a dead dog's spirit to 5D

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
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FOTCM Member
Richard S said:
Are you really certain that I should have betrayed what I firmly believe to be just and true simply to 'keep peace' in the family and not 'disturb' them in any way? Is it really 'externally considerate' to keep silent and participate in things which one knows are actually evil? Where does this stop?

This is how 'most people' incrementally 'slide downhill'! At least, this is how I see it.

But Richard, you would not have betrayed what you firmly believe to be just and true by going to the baptism. As a member of PC you believe that it is wrong for you, not for others. Do you understand that one of the major aspects of PC is a live and let live approach that is missing from major monotheistic religions? The approach you are taking is the intolerant approach of major mainstream religions.
 

Laura

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Richard, I would have attended a baptism, but not anything celebrating circumcision. As a member of FOTCM you can freely participate in other religious ceremonies where people refer to DCM by other names as long as it doesn't violate some REAL principle! Geeze, we didn't set it up to be adversarial!
 

Gandalf

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Richard S said:
There is quite a bit of difference between external consideration and sticking up for one's religious principles. How is this any different than someone saying "No I can't have meat today because of my religion"? There is no "attack" forthcoming and I still have good relationship with my family, it is just that I will not be a part of something which I am opposed to.

There is a big difference in saying no i will not go to the ceremony and no i can't have meat.

In the first one, it was not you who were baptized, it was your grandson. And in the second one, it is you who are going to eat the meat.

It is not at all the same thing. In the first one who are just an observer while in the second one you are an actor, so you have the right to decide if you want to eat or not that meat.

Edited: I am not talking about a ceremony celebrating circumcision.
 

truth seeker

The Living Force
Hi Richard,

While on the face of it, there's nothing wrong with not attending a baptism or any ceremony in general, I sense some defensiveness and perhaps even anger in your reply to Hemdallr's post and it makes me wonder if this same attitude was reflected in how you responded to your family's request.

Perhaps your family is resistant to your beliefs because of the way they are presented. If it is done with an air of self importance, people will be resistant to hearing what you have to say much the same way many of us here are put off by many religions.

A question you may want to ask yourself is did you not attend the ceremony strictly because the ideas surrounding it are genuinely offensive to you or was it that you didn't want to attend the ceremony in general and used your religion as an excuse not to go?

From your post, it sounds as if there may now be a rift in your family because of this. Was doing this really worth the trouble it may have caused when it would have just been better for you to use the principles of strategic enclosure and just explained your reasons for not wanting to go without adding religion to the mix? This now may make it easier for them to shun both you and PC.

Just some thoughts.
 

Richs

Dagobah Resident
Hi all,
Thanks for all the comments on this and all of them were duly noted and thought over.

This has been a very sore subject to me for most of my life and is not just something recent and specifically due to the FOTCM.

I think my adversarial attitude and 'hint of anger' in my post are due to the fact that I was raised with and forced myself to be a Catholic, including being sent to a Catholic grade school where no effort was made to 'spare the rod' while doing their best to force their beliefs onto me. I suppose this has all made me overreact a bit to the situation. Any 'anger' that came through in the post is just some 'letting off steam' in remembering all this.

It was also that unbeknown to me at the time that my grandson Kevin was circumcised while in the hospital the day before I went to visit. The harmful things they do to kids and now to my grandson who is totally defenseless was and is still hurtful to me.

I was actually initially contemplating going to the party until I had a phone conversation with my older brother. The call was about who was going to pick up my mother from the nursing home and bring her to both the ceremony and the party afterwards. When I mentioned I was not going to the church he questioned me about it and then after I stated I disapproved of the idea of pushing anyone into believing any particular faith he began trying to manipulate me into going. It should be noted here that he has used manipulative tactics on me for many years. When I called him on it he got really mad and hung up the phone! At that point is when I decided not to go the the party afterward either. So, the only real problem this resulted in was denying my brother his effort to manipulate me again and was not really related as to whether or not I was attending the ceremony, but whether he could continue to manipulate me.

I will have some conversations with my family regarding my feelings on this and it is likely they will understand. We all do have good relationships and they are not really angry at me or anything like that. I think the main thing right now is they don't really understand what I think about this.

I appreciate all the responses and it has helped me quite a bit to come to terms with how I feel and what might be most appropriate if this situation or something similar ever comes up again.

Thanks,
Richard
 

truth seeker

The Living Force
Hi Richard,

I may stick my foot in it, but here goes. You said:

Richard S said:
This has been a very sore subject to me for most of my life and is not just something recent and specifically due to the FOTCM.

But then you say,

Richard S said:
Any 'anger' that came through in the post is just some 'letting off steam' in remembering all this.

I believe you were correct in labeling these feelings as old stuff. From the initial post, it sounds as though there's something deeper going on that you may want to look at. I think the second sentence was attempt at deflecting attention away from yourself when the mask fell.

Richard S said:
It was also that unbeknown to me at the time that my grandson Kevin was circumcised while in the hospital the day before I went to visit. The harmful things they do to kids and now to my grandson who is totally defenseless was and is still hurtful to me.

While I completely understand your feelings concerning circumcision, I'm wondering if you realize the important role you can play (should you choose to take this up) in your grandson's life. Perhaps you can be for him the person you would have liked your parents to be if that makes sense. If you can get past your own hurt feelings and practice external consideration for the sake of your grandson, a wonderful relationship with him may result from this.

Richard S said:
So, the only real problem this resulted in was denying my brother his effort to manipulate me again and was not really related as to whether or not I was attending the ceremony, but whether he could continue to manipulate me.

I have to disagree here. I believe you ended up being manipulated after all. The reason I believe this is because the decision you made was in anger. In other words, a defensive position. What ended up happening was that you came to a decision not out of external consideration for your grandson or even from personal beliefs, but rather you made a decision in order to get your brother to leave you alone. The manipulation from your brother occurred when you allowed his behavior to influence your actions. The PaleoChristianity may just have been a convenient excuse in this case. I'm not saying that the principles aren't important to you. I'm just saying that it may have been easier to tell your family what you did rather than having to tell them that you are sick of your brother's manipulations.

Richard S said:
I will have some conversations with my family regarding my feelings on this and it is likely they will understand. We all do have good relationships and they are not really angry at me or anything like that. I think the main thing right now is they don't really understand what I think about this.

Try not to worry so much about how you appear to us. No one thinks any less of you. The majority of us here have some family issue. We're all in the same boat! It's far more important for you to figure out how you feel and perhaps come up with some strategies concerning how to deal with your brother in the future so that you don't estrange yourself from your family.

If I'm off on anything or out of lien, don't hesitate to tell me.
 

Mona

Jedi Master
I just would like to comment on Richard S' situation with the baptism ceremony. I think that I would have done the same, however I would have shown up for the party afterwards. Fortunately in my family, we don't have a big one as we are immigrants in this country, none of us are religious, but there are instance where I feel uncomfortable going to my sister's family functions because she makes me uncomfortable. Just being around her is very uncomfortable for me so I do choose to not associate with her that much. I think that it is OK to finally say no to some family members who do nothing else but criticize, or who try to hurt some other way. I used to be selfish towards myself by always saying 'yes' just so that I would not look like I was being rude.

I understand what you are saying, that it is perfectly OK to socialize with those who are on a different pathway, but what if the situation does not make you comfortable and you are doing that something to please others. The child who was baptised is too young to understand what was done to him, so basically he does not care if Richard S attended the ceremony or not. The only people who got hurt emotionally are the grown-up family members who were probably upset that Richard decided to do something different for a change.
 

anart

A Disturbance in the Force
Mona said:
I just would like to comment on Richard S' situation with the baptism ceremony. I think that I would have done the same, however I would have shown up for the party afterwards. Fortunately in my family, we don't have a big one as we are immigrants in this country, none of us are religious, but there are instance where I feel uncomfortable going to my sister's family functions because she makes me uncomfortable. Just being around her is very uncomfortable for me so I do choose to not associate with her that much. I think that it is OK to finally say no to some family members who do nothing else but criticize, or who try to hurt some other way. I used to be selfish towards myself by always saying 'yes' just so that I would not look like I was being rude.

I understand what you are saying, that it is perfectly OK to socialize with those who are on a different pathway, but what if the situation does not make you comfortable and you are doing that something to please others. The child who was baptised is too young to understand what was done to him, so basically he does not care if Richard S attended the ceremony or not. The only people who got hurt emotionally are the grown-up family members who were probably upset that Richard decided to do something different for a change.

Yes, I understand what you are saying. However, as a human being who is supposed to be moving past his mechanical reactions into the realm of the Real, RichardS has acted mechanically. He has put his own mechanical reactions ahead of external consideration, for no objective good.

You see, as people who are awakening, it is up to us to act in ways that make life easier for ourselves and others. It is not up to others to conform to our needs. It is not our place to act in ways that make others feel condemned, isolated or looked down upon. All of this is discussed, at length, in discussions regarding Strategic Enclosure, External Consideration and the basic tenets of FOTCM.

This isn't a game - and each and every choice we make matters. fwiw.
 

Richs

Dagobah Resident
truth seeker said:
Hi Richard,

I believe you were correct in labeling these feelings as old stuff. From the initial post, it sounds as though there's something deeper going on that you may want to look at. I think the second sentence was attempt at deflecting attention away from yourself when the mask fell.

In a certain way you are correct in that there is something deeper going on.

In the last months I have been remembering thing that I have not even thought about for many, many years. Along with the remembrance of events is the emotions that go along with them. This is obviously due to the EE program which I have been doing pretty much constantly since Laura first introduced it to us all. I now have much more 'feeling' than I ever had before, and it seems to influence me in a much more profound way than I could have previously imagined, and this goes for both my own life and the world's events in general.

Previously to the changes in me in the last few months I was well aware on an intellectual level of the political, economic and social situation we are all in, but now I 'feel' it in a way which is even hard to describe, but which makes it so much more 'real'.

Probably it is so that we all have family issues of some sort and are definitely in the same boat! My relationship with my brother will no doubt be OK. I'm giving him some time to mull things over and then will get together with him. He is really not that bad of a guy but is good at manipulating people when he can get away with it. And all of my daughters have commented that its about time you quit letting him do that!

I don't think you are out of line and thanks for your concern.
 

truth seeker

The Living Force
No problem, Richard. I also just wanted to let you know that when you feel comfortable with it, you can post any issues that are coming up for you and not worry about feeling judged. We've all experienced in some form or another family and self issues.
 

Mona

Jedi Master
anart said:
Yes, I understand what you are saying. However, as a human being who is supposed to be moving past his mechanical reactions into the realm of the Real, RichardS has acted mechanically. He has put his own mechanical reactions ahead of external consideration, for no objective good.

You see, as people who are awakening, it is up to us to act in ways that make life easier for ourselves and others. It is not up to others to conform to our needs. It is not our place to act in ways that make others feel condemned, isolated or looked down upon. All of this is discussed, at length, in discussions regarding Strategic Enclosure, External Consideration and the basic tenets of FOTCM.

This isn't a game - and each and every choice we make matters. fwiw.

Anart, I do agree that making decisions based on mechanical reactions is not a wise choice. But let's say that one has chosen consciously, not based on anger, not to put oneself in an uncomfortable situation which would only benefit those who are good at manipulating others. I have learn to accept such individuals (well that is the way they are and there is no point to do anything to change them by going against their free will) by not associating with them. They probably have plenty of other people of the same mind that they can associate with, but I choose not to waste my time that way.

My point is, at least that is how I understand it, is that as long as one makes a coscious decision (is fully aware of the pros/cons of the choise being made) to stay away from uncomfortable situations with certains individuals, then that choice is not made based on mechanical reactions.
 

anart

A Disturbance in the Force
Mona said:
Anart, I do agree that making decisions based on mechanical reactions is not a wise choice. But let's say that one has chosen consciously, not based on anger, not to put oneself in an uncomfortable situation which would only benefit those who are good at manipulating others. I have learn to accept such individuals (well that is the way they are and there is no point to do anything to change them by going against their free will) by not associating with them. They probably have plenty of other people of the same mind that they can associate with, but I choose not to waste my time that way.

My point is, at least that is how I understand it, is that as long as one makes a coscious decision (is fully aware of the pros/cons of the choise being made) to stay away from uncomfortable situations with certains individuals, then that choice is not made based on mechanical reactions.

Sure, but do you realize that in this specific situation, you're projecting onto RichardS what you 'would do' in the situation?
 

Mona

Jedi Master
Anart said:
Sure, but do you realize that in this specific situation, you're projecting onto RichardS what you 'would do' in the situation?

Anart, I am sorry but I am not sure what you mean. I think I have a brain fog today. :headbash:


Mod's note:Edited to fix the quotation boxes
 
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