Serving Self by Serving Others

[Shared Joy]

How to do it?
I have been struggling this dilemma for quite a while; part of me wanted "perfection in service" the other part wanted "retreat and cultivation of my being". Both parts were bewildered about survival, and I felt stuck and numb.
Muddied thoughts and emotional upheaval was all that I got.
So, please, excuse me if I go a bit slow about what I wish to say

I even resorted to the I Ching (_http://deoxy.org/iching) to find an answer and here's what I got:

1. Ch'ien / The Creative - with line 4 and 6 changing:

Nine in the fourth place means: Wavering flight over the depths. No blame.

A place of transition has been reached, and free choice can enter in. A twofold possibility is presented to the great man: he can soar to the heights and play an important part in the world, or he can withdraw into solitude and develop himself. He can go the way of the hero or that of the holy sage who seeks seclusion. There is no general law of his being. If the individual acts consistently and is true to himself, he will find the way that is appropriate for him. This way is right for him and without blame.

Nine at the top means: Arrogant dragon will have cause to repent.

When a man seeks to climb so high that he loses touch with the rest of mankind, he becomes isolated, and this necessarily leads to failure. This line warns against titanic aspirations that exceed one's power. A precipitous fall would follow.

Just the same dilemma with a warning.

After the EE, I got this vision of the Mobius band curled up in the sign of Infinity - always cycling, simultaneously having its sides up and down, light and darkness, low and high.

Perceval's Holy Grail quest flashed in my mind: only when he gave up all his mighty thoughts and expectations, did he find the Grail. He chose by not choosing!

Maybe this was the answer, as I felt calmed somehow. Maybe I am not in the position of choosing as I am not there yet in my evolution.

As far as I can see now, I'll continue to work on myself , to preserve myself as a "functional unit" ( diet, EE, physical exercises, learning) and share and serve when asked, remaining mindful of where are at, those who ask, with their lives.

Any thoughts that could be added? Must welcome!

And, when it comes to sharing, allow me to indicate some easy and helpful exercises called Shibashi, described at:
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c60u6WfChmM
They offer even a downloadable Manual and their accept to be shared with those one cares about, so, use it as you please.

I thank you all for sharing so much and for so long.

Joy

[Mod note: disabled link to _deoxy.org]

 

[whitecoast]

I have been struggling this dilemma for quite a while; part of me wanted "perfection in service" the other part wanted "retreat and cultivation of my being". Both parts were bewildered about survival, and I felt stuck and numb.
Muddied thoughts and emotional upheaval was all that I got.
So, please, excuse me if I go a bit slow about what I wish to say

Maybe it would be helpful if you described as clearly as possible why you see a distinction between genuine service and self-cultivation? I say genuine because a lot of perceived altruism can simply be internal considering and conditioned subjugation.

I feel like I've been where you have been before. I think in the end I came to the same conclusions your own inspirations led you. On the other hand, it could just mean we're both wrong. :P

 

[Skyalmian]

I don't know if it helps, but I read this earlier from The First Initiation by Madame de Salzmann:

I don't know exactly how significant this experience by comparison with the description of 'Initiation' in the Wave, but it's significant from the point of view of my own experience so far. It doesn't even feel esoterically magical, mysterious or anything special like that. Maybe it was just a clearing of a major emotional block that was preventing me from experiencing my Real self - or experiencing myself from the point of view of a real self-observer. I'm not quite sure how to phrase this.

It doesn't seem to mean that I am any better at understanding or expressing certain things, but I can see my own workings with some detachment no matter what seems to be going on. In fact, yesterday I had an entire day when I didn't care about, want or need anything for myself. Everything exists for the use and benefit of someone else. There was the fact of it and the feel of it to be true. Other than my basic needs, which also includes job hunting, all my attention is on doing whatever I can to make easier, the lives of the people in the realm of my immediate responsibility, which includes my wife, mom and Dad - as if that is the most important thing right now. I actually feel how important this is, no matter the cost to me in terms of time, effort, or whatever. I came away with a new and unexpected understanding of the concept 'serve yourself by serving others'. It seems when you can get a moment and see through or see around the false self, you see that there is nothing of you requiring so much attention anyway. That leaves "the you in others" who require help and support to get through this life.

I guess this is the process of maturing. I can see what was meant by "terrifying and exciting at the same time." When I found myself at that place for the first time, there was no way to know how it was going to turn out for me, but I'm pleased to say that things seem to be looking up and that I see only improvement from here, no matter any appearances to the contrary.

 

[Sol Logos]

How to do it?
I have been struggling this dilemma for quite a while; part of me wanted "perfection in service" the other part wanted "retreat and cultivation of my being". Both parts were bewildered about survival, and I felt stuck and numb.
Perceval's Holy Grail quest flashed in my mind: only when he gave up all his mighty thoughts and expectations, did he find the Grail.

Hi Joy, I'd say all those feelings are vital to knowing what's going on. For example what would being perfect in service or having a fully cultivated being do to those feelings? How would it change things for you? Would you still feel stuck and numb? If not, it's possible you're caught on these lofty goals to cover up something that feels bad. I know you're describing a dilemma of choice but might be worth considering that you're just looking at two sides of the same coin.

He chose by not choosing!

I'd be kind of careful with this conclusion. Sometimes the idea of "going with the flow" is a justification for giving away one's responsibility. The fact is being responsible is an active state, it can't be otherwise. Often what we end up doing is when when we feel overwhelmed, we employ a strategy of throwing in the towel and we wrap that up with all manner of intellectual notions to make it seem like we have progressed beyond the problem. But break that all down and it's basically a way to not dealing with what's in front of us, what's we believe is too hard or too scary. In the end the problem at hand won't magically dissolve (if we are doing that), it's more likely going to get bigger.

There's definitely merit in letting go of having to control everything, but it's worth investigating whether that's the issue or if it's more about avoiding responsibility.

 

[edgitarra]

One possibility may be that when you start enjoying serving others, it is somehow serving the self, because you enjoy it. But I don't know for sure, I might be wrong.

 

[Shared Joy]

I hope to be able to explain

Whitecoast
Thank you for your post. I came to understand that there is no separation between genuine service and self-cultivation after seeing that Mobius Band. I was desynchronised by my perfectionism. Perfectionism is sickness, to put it midly. It comes out of fear. All kind of fear - rejection, criticism,loss,etc. It makes you feel like a victim. That's why I was so numb and lifeless. I was living everywhere but present. I know, it won't go away that easy. I hope to be able to face other shadowy parts of myself, as they come up.

Skysira,
thank you for reminding me of that thread, it was really helpful to learn about the struggle and beauty that results after doing the Work. Buddy, I hope you keep up to your achivements!

It is hard to find a spot of reference in a world where even the role-models are fake, false, illusory... sages or heros of the old can't really stay as role models now. Maybe the hero is the one who still find a way to embrace life, who feels the happiness of hard work, and can remain serene during loss or gain.

Alkhemst,
when I cited Perceval's choice, I wanted to emphasize that not choosing between the two alternatives was the result of me understanding that neither of those choices were appropriate for me at this time. More modest goals will have to do. Maybe there will be times when I can choose naturally to do something what I wouldn't dare to think of now.
We all have been through moments of grace when things just happened with ease - I have to remind myself that these are bonuses and avoid anticipating them.
You are right about responsibility and the interpretations we tend to attach to being or not responsible. I tried to recall several instances to take a hard look at my attitude: it's not the responsability that bothers me but the fear of not being good enough, or to live up to certain situations. I know that in order to get out of these limitations I have to do what is fearful, unpleasant, hard... I did this several times, but , so far, I couldn't liberate myself completely.

Edgitarra,
I think that joy is a major sign that you are on the right track when doing whatever you are doing. I enjoy serving others and all work done with joy is eliberating. Sometimes I feel I should do more service and I chide myself for allotting more time for study than effective work. I think my mind is like a hungry donkey which keeps going from one subject to a related one, and I just end up searching for an answer for hours and feeling tired afterwards. I should get used to refine a search and shorten the theoretical work.

Thank you all for your input.
Joy

 

[Keit]

It doesn't seem to mean that I am any better at understanding or expressing certain things, but I can see my own workings with some detachment no matter what seems to be going on. In fact, yesterday I had an entire day when I didn't care about, want or need anything for myself. Everything exists for the use and benefit of someone else. There was the fact of it and the feel of it to be true. Other than my basic needs, which also includes job hunting, all my attention is on doing whatever I can to make easier, the lives of the people in the realm of my immediate responsibility, which includes my wife, mom and Dad - as if that is the most important thing right now. I actually feel how important this is, no matter the cost to me in terms of time, effort, or whatever. I came away with a new and unexpected understanding of the concept 'serve yourself by serving others'. It seems when you can get a moment and see through or see around the false self, you see that there is nothing of you requiring so much attention anyway. That leaves "the you in others" who require help and support to get through this life.

How to serve yourself by serving others? How to do it? Don't know if I have a correct and clear understanding of it, but will try to explain by giving a practical example, since this is also an issue my mind is currently occupied with. Maybe it will be helpful.

I am a student that studies a profession that requires a lot of knowledge and skill. And I do have good results and progress, but there is also this tendency to wanting always compare myself to other more advanced/knowledgeable students (particularly in surgery) and feeling inadequate or feeling loss if I don't get the same results or practice opportunities as they are. On the other hand, it's pretty clear that they are where they are because of the choices they made. And that I can have the same opportunities if I were to make the same choices (specifically, to spend all my free time at the surgery clinic), but then my choice is to spend most of my free time on other things that I find more important, and go to the clinic when ever there is more free time than usual, or when there are no tests or exams.

And whenever I try to analyze the source of the feelings, it always comes down to ego, and being afraid that I'll be compared and seen in a lesser light than I would like to. It's all has to do with my selfish wants and fears, and perception management. After all, surgery accounts for maybe only 30% of practice, even if considered to be so much cooler. And judging from my own personal experience, diagnosing diseases is much more trickier. But this could be a narrative I tell myself in order to cover the feelings of inadequacy and the realization that they are better in this than me.

So how to approach it correctly and what it has to do with serving self by serving others? And I've came up with a following: Ok, so perhaps I am not exactly the top of the top (and that's not a pleasant realization, at least to some ambitious and competitive parts of self), but I can still do something, and most importantly, I am willing to learn if there is something I don't know and it is something that is needed for others. If so, it's the perfect solution. Instead of wasting energy on trying to satisfy my ego, I will cultivate humility and do my best with what is in front of me and with what is most needed for the network at the moment, and by that will serve my true self and not the false personality. fwiw.

 

[Skyalmian]

One possibility may be that when you start enjoying serving others, it is somehow serving the self, because you enjoy it. But I don't know for sure, I might be wrong.

Maybe the solution is to call it 'fun', the term of which the Cs don't seem to have any issue with? E.g., "Learning is fun."

 

[Buddy]

Buddy, I hope you keep up to your achivements!

...and FWIW, I agree with your Möbius Band comparison.

 

[Sol Logos]

...it's not the responsability that bothers me but the fear of not being good enough, or to live up to certain situations. I know that in order to get out of these limitations I have to do what is fearful, unpleasant, hard... I did this several times, but , so far, I couldn't liberate myself completely.

Makes sense, it's usually not that we don't want to take personal responsibility its that when we do we're scared we will just fail and prove to ourselves exactly what we always believed about ourselves - that we are not good enough and that we never will be good enough.

That's what I meant by those feelings, certainly they are heavy and deep and who would really want to feel that way?

I'd say though that every step you (and me) are taking, just even small steps is actually proving just the opposite - that we can be so much more than someone else's "good enough" as we can face those fears and see them as false - one of most vital lessons to learn about ourselves. So every step in that direction, even if we slip and get back up, we are so much better for it. So much more than another's idea of "good enough" we absorbed as children.

 

[whitecoast]

I tried to recall several instances to take a hard look at my attitude: it's not the responsability that bothers me but the fear of not being good enough, or to live up to certain situations. I know that in order to get out of these limitations I have to do what is fearful, unpleasant, hard... I did this several times, but , so far, I couldn't liberate myself completely.

Fear of the Abyss, by Aleta Edwards, is a really good book that deals with a cluster of traits relating to perfectionism, control, and shame (PCS for short). I see some of those traits manifesting in what you wrote above. Even if suffering only mild forms of that type of personality, I found the book to be a good overview of how to put the breaks on a Freudian super-ego gone (even situationally) haywire. Have a look if you think it may help you.

 

[Shared Joy]

Again, thank you all for your input.

It seems that bringing this issue into the open, made it to morph and twist and change shape, and NOW it revealed to me a lot of other aspects. i succeeded in opening my personal "can of worms"!!

Excuse me to resort to some past history in order to make myself understood: almost all of my life I had been working as an employee. This was a matter-of-fact to me, I am not a leader type. No wonder that I formed a self-image (plus unconscious believes) of not being able to give my best unless somebody pushes me somehow. And I had petty tyrants as bosses who squeezed me (with my tacit consent) to the point that I became so exhausted that I lost timidity, and, understanding that I have nothing to loose, I was able to do acts of courage - to stand up for myself, to pay hard and in advance, walking away from well established position in the market and move on without regrets into the unknown, to learn new professions, etc. I think this was the best I could get out of it, and I am now grateful.

Well, for the past two years I have been working as self-employed, with variable results. Big change in my illusion of continuity!!
Inside of a company, responsibility is diluted. Now, it is all mine. More task to be attended, but in a different manner.

And, to make it even fancier - it seems to me that my worry and confusion about serving self by serving others is due to the fact that the external tyrant became an inner tyrant. Not that I was ever free of my predator mind, shadow self, you name it. I know it was always there, but was not so evident, as long as I had somebody outside myself, to play this role in a more obvious manner.

Now, I understand better this fear of mine - I don't want to serve this predator mind, by serving self.

And is soooo easy to slip when you are alone! Yes, I know, companies fail also, but here I'm referring to this struggle which is now out in the open. The C's said repeatedly to network, as there is no possibility to resist alone. Now, I understand why.
I just feel uneasy that instead of giving you hope by coming up with a success story, I came up with this.

I think that I have to find some limits to how far I can go to be sure I can handle safely my activities to be of real service and why not, to feel the fun and joy of doing it.

Thank you Whitecoast for recommending this book. I will listen to the SOTT talk show again with the interview.

Alkhemst, you are right - fear of failure can indeed stop you from doing whatever could prove us we are unfitted. Maybe nonanticipation of "good" results and openness would help. Certainly not being petrified and stagnant.

Keith, thank you for reminding me of self importance. We are conditioned to look for approval and confirmation. It doesn't mean that they have their role, however confirmation coming from inside cannot be heard this way.
Thank you all.

Joy

 

[Oxajil]

Hi Joy Shared,

If I understand you correctly, you moved from working in a company to being self-employed. When you worked in the company there were petty tyrants making your life difficult, and now that you're self-employed you primarily are dealing with your predator or negative introject. But I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding your struggles while being self-employed; i.e. what kind of slip-ups you're referring to, and what you exactly mean by serving the self in this context. Perhaps, if you want and need more specific feedback, you could share some examples?

 

[Shared Joy]

Hi Oxajil,
well, in my country being self-employed as psychologist is not exactly easy: this profession had been banned for several years and people even today consider a shame to turn to a psychologist (meaning one is mad). Furthermore, should they have any complaints, their MD would send them right to a psychiatrist

Psychologists aren't profit makers neither to the healthcare system , nor to big pharma. No healthcare insurance would cover for psychotherapy costs. If somebody needs them, they have to pay it entirely to the provider. And many people are too poor to afford it. They suffer a lot, as all they receive are pills, mostly the same, regardless of the complaint

Furthermore, getting people to know that my intentions are to teach them to become free of some of their problems, self sufficient in various ways, and more aware of what's going on in their lives, are rarely valued. People don't want to be free. Maybe not in major ways.
That's why sometimes I have to conceive strategies to persuade them that there's more to life than a quick fix of some problems. There are times when I feel as if I am serving my own ideals of knowledge, awareness, freedom. Maybe I want to make up for to many years of missing information. Here is my own shadow self.

But these above mentioned petty tyrants are of different type, they are not in my proximity, I know of no workable strategies, they are not teaching me detachment ("Nothing can temper the spirit of a warrior as much as the challenge of dealing with impossible people in positions of power" Carlos Castaneda - The Fire from Within), but these are not people.