Session 4 April 2015

[Ðekel]

If this sounds like mumbo-jumbo, it's maybe because they've sort of led us in that direction. Into Alice in Wonderland territory. It confuses me often.

It's not clear though who the "they" is that you referred to in the above quote box ?

Perhaps this is more clear:

If this sounds like mumbo-jumbo, it's maybe because the C's have sort of led us in that direction. Into Alice in Wonderland territory. It enlightens AND confuses me often.

FWIW.

Yes, thanks. :)
I was almost but not completely sure that that's what you meant.

Indeed Alice in wonderland territory.
At a certain point when discussing the "level" of reality we often do, words can start to fail us, even if only for the fact that our language hasn't been constructed to deal with the content of Wonderland. It seems to work fine for discussing dresses and cars and sports etc'. (Not that there's anything wrong with dresses and cars and sports).

Yet, even when there's confusion, I prefer "reflecting upon all that is in the reflection".

 

[sitting]

I think Nienna, is using the word "candidate" for which all of us would be an end, and the attribute would come once one has taken the decision to be STO,

Yes. The meaning is much clearer to me as I re-read it this morning.

And I was a bit surprised & disappointed with my own manner in that particular response. My only defense is that I'm presently going through what Ynna had gone through a while back. Selling my home of 17 years and resettling.

It brings up lots of mixed emotions. Clouding one's judgment. Plus I'm getting a real lesson in attachment vs detachment. And it ain't easy.

 

[goyacobol]

I think Nienna, is using the word "candidate" for which all of us would be an end, and the attribute would come once one has taken the decision to be STO,

Yes. The meaning is much clearer to me as I re-read it this morning.

And I was a bit surprised & disappointed with my own manner in that particular response. My only defense is that I'm presently going through what Ynna had gone through a while back. Selling my home of 17 years and resettling.

It bring up lots of mixed emotions. Clouding one's judgment. Plus I'm getting a real lesson in attachment vs detachment. And it ain't easy.

sitting,

I know that moving or resettling was stressful for us several years ago. I wish you as smooth a transition possible, if there is such a thing. I don't know how you have kept up with the posts as well as you have.

Hoping the best for you

 

[goyacobol]

It has come to my attention that when I depend on my memory or paraphrasing instead of referring specifically to the sessions or other reading material directly, I am not totally accurate. If anyone sees errors in my personal remarks I hope you will help me by pointing out the discrepancies. In this post I think I need to make some corrections and also make my personal paraphrases clearer and more precise by adding some quotes from the original sources.

....

Yes I think sitting is pointing out an important detail:

To begin with, STO is not an end but an attribute. One stemming from a particular state of being.

Until we choose what I think of as the direction towards STO it never has a chance to become a significant part of our "being".

And the the "thousand years" adjustment period mentioned by the Cs kind of supports the idea of choosing to grow towards an STO "state of being".

Somewhere they indicate you are free to go from STS to STO or STO to STS as you choose.

The above highlighted STS to STO statement is true only to a degree as T.C. has pointed out by posting the following:

Here's the relevant transcript:

Q: (L) Okay, let's take a short break...
[break] Now, guys, I guess you have been
listening to our discussion and you listened to
JR read the paragraph from the article about
4th density experience being the highest level
of wishful thinking, that wishful thinking
becomes reality... (J) Or did I take it out of
context?
A: Close. STS.
Q: (L) So, STO wishful thinking...
A: STO does not wishfully think.
Q: (L) Well, how does STO think? (T)
Responsibly... (L)[experiencing acute
pinching feeling at nape of neck] God! You
guys are doing strange things to my body...
A: Helpful and balanced. Wishes are strictly
STS.
Q: (L) So, acceptance of experience in the
sense of just allowing things to happen and
responding in a balanced and helpful way is
an STO response or experience in 4th
density, is that correct?
A: Close.
Q: (L) And therefore, seeing things moving
past such as what I saw by my window, and
responding to them basically in an open,
curious, and allowing way would have been
an STO response, is that correct?
A: Maybe.
Q: (T) It depends on how you respond
curiously. (T) The Lizzies are hanging out in
4th density too, and they are not STO, are
they?
A: Correct.
Q: (T) So, they are not having STO helpful,
responsible..
A: True.
Q: (T) So, in 4th density, both types can still
happen?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) The desired type is the STO type
thinking...?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) But STS thinking is also available if
that is the way you decide to go when you get
there?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) This of course limits you in your
ability to move up to 6th density?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) Once you are in 4th density, if you
choose STS, can you change it to STO?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) So you can move back and forth as
you so desire and it is all still free will?
A: If you move from STS to STO in 4th
level, you don't move back.
Q: (T) Once you are STS in 4th density you
have to stay there? (L) No. (J) If you move
from STS to STO in 4th density you don't go
back to STS, you stay at STO, is that correct?
(T) That's what I mean, once you have
decided to do STO, that's where you stay
because you don't have any desire to go back
to STS?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) So, it is not so much that you don't
have a choice; it is just that you don't want to
go back to STS?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) So if you move up and do what the
Lizards are doing, then you continue to do
that until you get tired of it or see different,
or become enlightened and then move to STO
and then that's where you will want to stay?
A: Open.
Q: (T) Can you move from STO back to
STS? I know you said you can't, but that's
because you choose not to?
A: Natural factors prohibit this.
Q: (L) So, I guess that once you get to STO
natural factors, the nature of that position is
that you just simply don't... it just doesn't
happen.

The part of my statement that is not correct is that I did not specify in which density the choice is made. In the above session the Cs say that in 4th density you can go from STS to STO but if you are STO when to are in 4th density you will not go back from STO to STS because "Natural factors prohibit this". However, the Cs also say this:

Q: (T) So if you move up and do what the
Lizards are doing, then you continue to do
that until you get tired of it or see different,
or become enlightened and then move to STO
and then that's where you will want to stay?
A: Open.

So if you go to 4D and the Lizards say "see you could have this" you might want to think about it first.

....

The following comments are confusing and inaccurate. I am wrong in placing the STS and STO "blending" with the Consortium. It should go with the Quorum. I am also incorrect as far as I know about assistance for Orion STS group. Only the Quorum was mentioned getting assistance or advice from the Cs that I know but I could be wrong so verify this for yourself.

The Cs have indicated that STS and STO blends at the consortium level. They have also mentioned that they have sometimes given assistance to the Orion STS group when "asked" and when it didn't go against their own principles.
.....

That leaves me with 3 different groups which are the Quorum, Consortium and the Orion STS group.

The Quorum and the "blend" is already well explained in the Glossary Quorum

Here is a reference to the Cassiopaeans assisting/communicating with the Quorum:

Session 16 October 1994

Q: (L) What is the relationship between this quorum and the Cassiopaeans?
A: They communicate with us regularly.
Q: (L) Do they do this knowing you are Cassiopaeans or do they do it thinking...
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Has there been an ongoing relationship between the Cassiopaeans and this quorum for these
thousands of years?
A: For some time as you measure it.

The Consortium which is STS in nature is also in the Glossary Consortium

The Orion STS group is also described in the Glossary Orion STS

I am sorry for any confusion on my part and hope you let know if you find any more mistakes.

 

[zak]

Citation de: T.C. le Hier à 10:52:43 pm
Here's the relevant transcript:

Citation de: session: 14/01/95
Q: (L) Okay, let's take a short break...
[break] Now, guys, I guess you have been
listening to our discussion and you listened to
JR read the paragraph from the article about
4th density experience being the highest level
of wishful thinking, that wishful thinking
becomes reality... (J) Or did I take it out of
context?
A: Close. STS.
Q: (L) So, STO wishful thinking...
A: STO does not wishfully think.
Q: (L) Well, how does STO think? (T)
Responsibly... (L)[experiencing acute
pinching feeling at nape of neck] God! You
guys are doing strange things to my body...
A: Helpful and balanced. Wishes are strictly
STS.
Q: (L) So, acceptance of experience in the
sense of just allowing things to happen and
responding in a balanced and helpful way is
an STO response or experience in 4th
density, is that correct?
A: Close.
Q: (L) And therefore, seeing things moving
past such as what I saw by my window, and
responding to them basically in an open,
curious, and allowing way would have been
an STO response, is that correct?
A: Maybe.
Q: (T) It depends on how you respond
curiously. (T) The Lizzies are hanging out in
4th density too, and they are not STO, are
they?
A: Correct.
Q: (T) So, they are not having STO helpful,
responsible..
A: True.
Q: (T) So, in 4th density, both types can still
happen?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) The desired type is the STO type
thinking...?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) But STS thinking is also available if
that is the way you decide to go when you get
there?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) This of course limits you in your
ability to move up to 6th density?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) Once you are in 4th density, if you
choose STS, can you change it to STO?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) So you can move back and forth as
you so desire and it is all still free will?
A: If you move from STS to STO in 4th
level, you don't move back.
Q: (T) Once you are STS in 4th density you
have to stay there? (L) No. (J) If you move
from STS to STO in 4th density you don't go
back to STS, you stay at STO, is that correct?
(T) That's what I mean, once you have
decided to do STO, that's where you stay
because you don't have any desire to go back
to STS?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) So, it is not so much that you don't
have a choice; it is just that you don't want to
go back to STS?
A: Yes.
Q: (T) So if you move up and do what the
Lizards are doing, then you continue to do
that until you get tired of it or see different,
or become enlightened and then move to STO
and then that's where you will want to stay?
A: Open.
Q: (T) Can you move from STO back to
STS? I know you said you can't, but that's
because you choose not to?
A: Natural factors prohibit this.
Q: (L) So, I guess that once you get to STO
natural factors, the nature of that position is
that you just simply don't... it just doesn't
happen.

Thanks goyacobol to bring back this transcript.
I found in the Cassiopaea Glossary the notion of Intrinsic Nature:
"This term comes from Sufi tradition and refers to one's built-in tendency towards either 'felicity' vs. 'wretchedness' or 'grace' vs. 'sin.'

This corresponds roughly to the Cassiopaean notion of consciousness energy director. This is the factor determining the binding between the entity and the realm the entity occupies. This corresponds to both density as well as to the STO/STS duality.

At the level of human psychology, such a nature could be seen in one's basic disposition towards either being giving or empathic or on the other hand selfish."

Also with the Truth:
"The Cassiopaeans have said that when two beings both have no limits, they are precisely the same. This amounts to all potentially being one, but as long as beings are not infinite and all encompassing, there is bound to be some difference of perspective, however small. Hence, even theoretically, the complete truth concerning any phenomenon may only be asymptotically approached by a group of observers."
And
"The knowledge is largely the same but the attitude and approach to it differentiate between the STO and STS seeker. Likewise, the attitude to sharing this knowledge also differs between the two. It is typical of STS, even when not directly lying, to withhold information for future benefit and to operate on a need to know basis, hoarding information and giving it out selectively and with possible disinformation added.

STO-oriented parties also have constraints on sharing their knowledge but these constraints have a different source than the factors which make STS withhold information. In order to preserve free will and to promote individual learning and the attendant increase of being, knowledge cannot be given out without the seeker making commensurate efforts. Further, STO tends to respect people's free will to believe as they see fit and therefore does not force information on them by showing great signs or unquestionable proofs of spiritual or other unrequested knowledge. The principle of open sharing and networking fits best between participants of a similar level."

And too:
"In Life Is Only Real Then When I Am, Gurdjieff introduces the dictum 'I Am, I Can, I Wish.' From the book:

'Only such a man, when he consciously says "I am"-he really is; "I can"-he really can; "I wish"-he really wishes. When "I wish"-I feel with my whole being that I wish, and can wish. This does not mean that I want, that I need, that I like or, lastly, that I desire. No. "I wish." I never like, never want, I do not desire anything and I do not need anything-all this is slavery; if "I wish" something, I must like it, even if I do not like it. I can wish to like it, because "I can." I wish-I feel with my whole body that I wish. I wish-because I can wish.' [End quote]"
glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=333&lsel=F

 

[cubbex]

I guess I am just trying to understand what being "completely STO" means and how and when you finally reach that state.

I suppose I may "need more "time." ".

It's possible STO may not be defined by what is IS ... but by what it is NOT.

That's my current understanding. It may be defined by the total absence (negation) of self. (Self as in self importance. Or maybe even self as self identity. But this is tricky. Even if partly supported by the idea of "4th D awareness as being in union with all other objects.")

If the above is true, the attainment process is more a "cleansing within" (inner component of Work) than one of "reaching for without." The former simultaneously & naturally giving rise to the desire result.

This also fits in somewhat with their description of how in 4th D STO once attined, has no desire for falling back. First due to "choice,"--and later due to "natural factors."

FWIW.

PS
If this sounds like mumbo-jumbo, it's maybe because they've sort of led us in that direction. Into Alice in Wonderland territory. It confuses me often.

Interesting concept. That explains why is important to get rid of assumptions and clean our soul.

I think Nienna, is using the word "candidate" for which all of us would be an end, and the attribute would come once one has taken the decision to be STO,

Yes. The meaning is much clearer to me as I re-read it this morning.

And I was a bit surprised & disappointed with my own manner in that particular response. My only defense is that I'm presently going through what Ynna had gone through a while back. Selling my home of 17 years and resettling.

It bring up lots of mixed emotions. Clouding one's judgment. Plus I'm getting a real lesson in attachment vs detachment. And it ain't easy.

sitting,

I know that moving or resettling was stressful for us several years ago. I wish you as smooth a transition possible, if there is such a thing. I don't know how you have kept up with the posts as well as you have.

Hoping the best for you

I am with you too sitting. Since I was 10 yrs old, every 2 years for strange reasons I have to move. Change house, change friends, change everything.

 

[goyacobol]

[....]

Also with the Truth:
"The Cassiopaeans have said that when two beings both have no limits, they are precisely the same. This amounts to all potentially being one, but as long as beings are not infinite and all encompassing, there is bound to be some difference of perspective, however small. Hence, even theoretically, the complete truth concerning any phenomenon may only be asymptotically approached by a group of observers."

[....]

zak,

Thanks for the interesting post and comments. The only thing I am not sure about is when you say "two beings both have no limits".

I think you may be referring to the following session remarks:

Session 24 November 1994

Q: (L) So we just have to stay on our toes at all times?
A: Absolutely don't let others distract you. You have suffered many attempts at distraction away from
truth. Now follow some proclamations: Pause. All there is is lessons. This is one infinite school. There is
no other reason for anything to exist. Even inanimate matter learns it is all an "Illusion." Each
individual possesses all of creation within their minds. Now, contemplate for a moment. Each soul is all
powerful and can create or destroy all existence if know how. You and us and all others are
interconnected by our mutual possession of all there is. You may create alternative universes if you
wish and dwell within. You are all a duplicate of the universe within which you dwell. Your mind
represents all that exists. It is "fun" to see how much you can access.
Q: (L) It's fun for who to see how much we can access?
A: All. Challenges are fun. Where do you think the limit of your mind is?
Q: (L) Where?
A: We asked you.
Q: (L) Well, I guess there is no limit.
A: If there is no limit, then what is the difference between your own mind and everything else?
Q: (L) Well, I guess there is no difference if all is ultimately one.
A: Right. And when two things each have absolutely no limits, they are precisely the same thing.

In the above dialog they use the words "things" when talking about limits and "your own mind". I guess you might be able to use "things" with the idea of "two beings", I just never quite thought about it that way. I have to admit that "things" is a pretty general term. That may be your best observation. I can't really say for sure.

Thanks

 

[riclapaz]

I think Nienna, is using the word "candidate" for which all of us would be an end, and the attribute would come once one has taken the decision to be STO,

Yes. The meaning is much clearer to me as I re-read it this morning.

And I was a bit surprised & disappointed with my own manner in that particular response. My only defense is that I'm presently going through what Ynna had gone through a while back. Selling my home of 17 years and resettling.

It brings up lots of mixed emotions. Clouding one's judgment. Plus I'm getting a real lesson in attachment vs detachment. And it ain't easy.

Take it slow sitting, we are with you

 

[zak]

I think you may be referring to the following session remarks:

Session 24 November 1994

Q: (L) So we just have to stay on our toes at all times?
A: Absolutely don't let others distract you. You have suffered many attempts at distraction away from
truth. Now follow some proclamations: Pause. All there is is lessons. This is one infinite school. There is
no other reason for anything to exist. Even inanimate matter learns it is all an "Illusion." Each
individual possesses all of creation within their minds. Now, contemplate for a moment. Each soul is all
powerful and can create or destroy all existence if know how. You and us and all others are
interconnected by our mutual possession of all there is. You may create alternative universes if you
wish and dwell within. You are all a duplicate of the universe within which you dwell. Your mind
represents all that exists. It is "fun" to see how much you can access.
Q: (L) It's fun for who to see how much we can access?
A: All. Challenges are fun. Where do you think the limit of your mind is?
Q: (L) Where?
A: We asked you.
Q: (L) Well, I guess there is no limit.
A: If there is no limit, then what is the difference between your own mind and everything else?
Q: (L) Well, I guess there is no difference if all is ultimately one.
A: Right. And when two things each have absolutely no limits, they are precisely the same thing.

In the above dialog they use the words "things" when talking about limits and "your own mind". I guess you might be able to use "things" with the idea of "two beings", I just never quite thought about it that way. I have to admit that "things" is a pretty general term. That may be your best observation. I can't really say for sure.

Thanks

Very interesting quote goyacobol.
Yesterday in taking a look to the glossary
i found the same "thing"/"being":
All is One

The Cassiopaeans and many other channeled sources state that 'all is one and one is all.' This is found in religion in places like Genesis and the beginning of the Gospel of John:

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This apparently simple statement has multiple aspects.

Cosmologically, if all originates in a singularity, we could say that all is a product of an undifferentiated One. Most systems of metaphysics recognize something of the sort.

Creation is God experiencing itself, say the Sufis. God was a hidden treasure and wanted to be known, but for knowledge there had to be knower and known. Thus the One divided into creation, giving rise to spirit and matter, orientations of STO/STS, involution and evolution and so forth.

Cassiopaeans link the idea to consciousness and everyone's joint access to all which is:

All there is is lessons. This is one infinite school. There is no other reason for anything to exist. Even inanimate matter learns it is all an "Illusion." Each individual possesses all of creation within their minds. Now, contemplate for a moment. Each soul is all powerful and can create or destroy all existence if know how. You and us and all others are interconnected by our mutual possession of all there is. You may create alternative universes if you wish and dwell within. You are all a duplicate of the universe within which you dwell. Your mind represents all that exists. It is "fun" to see how much you can access. […] Challenges are fun. Where do you think the limit of your mind is?
Q: (L) Well, I guess there is no limit.
A: If there is no limit, then what is the difference between your own mind and everything else?
Q: (L) Well, I guess there is no difference if all is ultimately one.
A: Right. And when two things each have absolutely no limits, they are precisely the same thing.' [End quote]

We can speak of two distinct applications of 'All is One.' The expanding or STO application would be to say that since all already is one, there is no point in wanting what another has for the self since in a sense this already exists within the one. Instead one may create something to enhance the creation, thus naturally contributing and adding to the One, thereby also giving to others.

The STS application of the idea is to see all as a lost part of self which must be forced to return to self. The One is served by gathering all to self and thus to the One.

The problem with the idea of all being one is that it is sometimes naively applied to human matters, as if the human could assume God's perspective. So, even if the 'All blinks at neither the light or the dark' [Ra] this does in no way free man from having to make ethical determinations and act on them. So the New Age sometimes misapplies 'All is One' to justify non-action or indifference as being spiritual when precisely the opposite is the case. See discussion of polarity or harvestability for more on this.

Another common misapplication of the idea is the New Age thought that one may accede to the unity of all things just by imagining it. At the human level, it seems the application of all is one is realized by actively participating and studying all which is, as objectively as possible. This may actually link the student to the world of all which is, whereas seeking bliss and experiences may only create a layer of wishfulness and subjectivity effectively increasing separation of the self from the All.
glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=101

Edit=Quote

 

[Ðekel]

I think Nienna, is using the word "candidate" for which all of us would be an end, and the attribute would come once one has taken the decision to be STO,

Yes. The meaning is much clearer to me as I re-read it this morning.

And I was a bit surprised & disappointed with my own manner in that particular response. My only defense is that I'm presently going through what Ynna had gone through a while back. Selling my home of 17 years and resettling.

It brings up lots of mixed emotions. Clouding one's judgment. Plus I'm getting a real lesson in attachment vs detachment. And it ain't easy.

Take it slow sitting, we are with you

I too wish you as easy a home-transition as possible !

 

[sitting]

Another common misapplication of the idea is the New Age thought that one may accede to the unity of all things just by imagining it. At the human level, it seems the application of all is one is realized by actively participating and studying all which is, as objectively as possible.

Hi zak,

I think your summation is outstanding. I would like to add a trailer (my words) to the above.
Hopefully it will make sense.

At the human level, it seems the application of "all is one" is realized by
actively participating and studying all which is, as objectively as possible.

And that it does not stop there. Because in doing so, our internal transformation towards
STO and eventual one-ness gains. And there's perhaps a constant awareness needed
to recognize those gains in order to accelerate it further along. A certain mindfulness.

And that this particular desire for more gain is not STS.

FWIW.

 

[sitting]

I too wish you as easy a home-transition as possible !

Hi transientP,

Thank you.

I really do think I have it easy, compared to those with real hardships.

My children are in SF and NYC. While they themselves are fine, I'm much aware of the dire housing situations there. Working families AND middle class families stand little chance in terms of decent housing--at reasonable prices in those areas. It's a real condemnation of our society. Housing being so basic & essential. And maybe one reason among many for a necessary earth cleansing.

Thank you too Goyacobol, riclapaz, Prometeo for your kind wishes.

 

[SeekinTruth]

With the caveats already mentioned about the different interpretations / attitudes between STS and STO, two beings having all within, and both having no limits and thus being the same exact "thing" (two "things" with absolutely no limits in potential being the same), is also implied AND expanded upon by the following part of that C's quote:

You and us and all others are interconnected by our mutual possession of all there is.

So, yeah, one may say that two beings (or all beings) are connected by this possession of all that is - but it seems to be a much clearer view from an STO perspective as ultimately they do not distinguish between self and other, while accepting the unity in diversity (as opposed to STS desiring to force all back to self/One).

 

[goyacobol]

Another common misapplication of the idea is the New Age thought that one may accede to the unity of all things just by imagining it. At the human level, it seems the application of all is one is realized by actively participating and studying all which is, as objectively as possible.

Hi zak,

I think your summation is outstanding. I would like to add a trailer (my words) to the above.
Hopefully it will make sense.

At the human level, it seems the application of "all is one" is realized by
actively participating and studying all which is, as objectively as possible.

And that it does not stop there. Because in doing so, our internal transformation towards
STO and eventual one-ness gains. And there's perhaps a constant awareness needed
to recognize those gains in order to accelerate it further along. A certain mindfulness.

And that this particular desire for more gain is not STS.


FWIW.

Ditto from me Zak,

I agree with sitting that your summation is outstanding. :)

 

[sitting]

Ditto from me Zak,

I agree with sitting that your summation is outstanding. :)

Hi Goyacobol,

Please check your PM inbox. Thanks. :)