Show #14: Bitcoin, Gold and the Cashless Society

1n some ways, just being the devil's advocate here, it wouldn't be majorly different whether we're in a cashless society or not. I mean cash in itself (even gold / silver), is pretty much worthless in the sense that it has no useful physical function. Its only worth is the collective agreement of value we give it, the same would apply to digital currency, or whatever form of currency we create. Money is more like a contract between two or more parties to help negotiate fair exchange for real or perceived value. So in that sense a cashless currency is just as open for manipulation and control because as a human race presently caught up in all sorts of collective and personal delusions, our idea of what's valuable (or what constitutes something having value) is highly distorted and so can be easily influenced in a negative direction. So its sort of the same house but new coat of paint type of thing in my opinion.
 
Seems the Canadian MSN CBC has just aired a feature on the world bankers with part one of three parts series called:

Neil Macdonald said:
The 'monarchs of money' and the war on savers

Power Shift: First in a series on the rise of the central bankers and the global imposition of cheap credit


Monarchs of money: (from left) Ben Bernanke, head of the U.S. Federal Reserve bank; Mark Carney, governor of the Bank of Canada; Mario Draghi, president of the European Central Bank. (Getty/Reuters/Getty).

The article is lengthy and gives a litany of excuses in interviews by central bankers. There is a 20 minute video documentary (with a few interesting commentaries by insiders) within the link below. They seem to only take this back to 2008 when they say the bankers had to step in to save the day.

_http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/04/26/f-rfa-macdonald-power-shift-savers.html
 
alkhemst said:
1n some ways, just being the devil's advocate here, it wouldn't be majorly different whether we're in a cashless society or not. I mean cash in itself (even gold / silver), is pretty much worthless in the sense that it has no useful physical function. Its only worth is the collective agreement of value we give it, the same would apply to digital currency, or whatever form of currency we create. Money is more like a contract between two or more parties to help negotiate fair exchange for real or perceived value. So in that sense a cashless currency is just as open for manipulation and control because as a human race presently caught up in all sorts of collective and personal delusions, our idea of what's valuable (or what constitutes something having value) is highly distorted and so can be easily influenced in a negative direction. So its sort of the same house but new coat of paint type of thing in my opinion.

To a certain extent that's true but extending your analogy I see it as the same house with a new coat of paint but with the doors and windows firmly sealed. :(

While our current fiat system is corrupt it does allow for a certain, albeit slowly deteriorating degree of flexibility. For instance one threat with a cashless society could be restrictions on movement. There are already examples where people have been restricted from leaving a country because of unpaid fines. If everything is electronic, there is a real risk of authorities exercising power and control over what goods and services can even be purchased by individuals. So I think a cashless currency is more open to manipulation when we have no faith in those who will be controlling it.
 
alkhemst said:
1n some ways, just being the devil's advocate here, it wouldn't be majorly different whether we're in a cashless society or not. I mean cash in itself (even gold / silver), is pretty much worthless in the sense that it has no useful physical function. Its only worth is the collective agreement of value we give it, the same would apply to digital currency, or whatever form of currency we create. Money is more like a contract between two or more parties to help negotiate fair exchange for real or perceived value. So in that sense a cashless currency is just as open for manipulation and control because as a human race presently caught up in all sorts of collective and personal delusions, our idea of what's valuable (or what constitutes something having value) is highly distorted and so can be easily influenced in a negative direction. So its sort of the same house but new coat of paint type of thing in my opinion.

There is one big difference. With electronic money, your 'money' is always in somebody else's server. You wouldn't be able to make any transaction without being watched, no matter how small. The system can be used for a very tight control of society because it holds all the chips.

Would you rebel or even express your opposing opinions towards the system if you knew that all your wealth could be 'unplugged' from you at any time? Suppose once the system is totally set, they decide a couple of years down the line to punish dissent by restricting access to e-money. Suppose they declare you guilty of some offense you didn't even commit and they take a huge amount from you without your consent to pay for a 'fine'. Suppose military service becomes compulsory and you need to do it to get access to your salary. Suppose that you didn't break any laws but you are known to be a potential problem, and one day without any explanation you have 90% less money than you used to, and no one can give you any explanation, nor will they even believe that you had the amount you claim, because the computers don't lie.

What will you or any of us do then? It seems to me that the cashless society would be the ultimate form of Orwellian control. It enables so many points of pressure on the population that weren't available to the PTB before - not at such detailed level of control.

A very powerful point in case of how much a cashless society would favor totalitarianism is what is happening in Cyprus. One day the government decides that the only way to pay its debts is to skim all the accounts of the population without the people's consent. If the people don't have a chance to change their e-money into cash, gold or some other physical type of valuable, they cannot stop it.
 
Pob said:
While our current fiat system is corrupt it does allow for a certain, albeit slowly deteriorating degree of flexibility. For instance one threat with a cashless society could be restrictions on movement. There are already examples where people have been restricted from leaving a country because of unpaid fines. If everything is electronic, there is a real risk of authorities exercising power and control over what goods and services can even be purchased by individuals. So I think a cashless currency is more open to manipulation when we have no faith in those who will be controlling it.

Have to agree with what you have said here. Looking around at how it works presently in just a simple municipality cash society, let alone in cities, it seems there would be disarray in switching to cashless means; that is assuming people had means. Without a form of means (conversions), there would be chaos and mass control - this would not go well.

As for the above referenced link to "The 'monarchs of money' and the war on savers", here is part two posted today:

_http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/04/29/f-rfa-macdonald-power-shift-growth.html

Neil Macdonald: The illusion of growth
How central bank stimulus is creating a global 'bubble economy.' Power Shift, part 2

Here are a couple of snips:

Ros Altmann, a pension manager and a governor of the London School of Economics, compares quantitative easing to treating a sick patient with medication that doesn't work, and then, when the patient gets sicker, administering even more.
[...]
In Florida, Mark Grant tells his clients that there are no good endings to all this, "only less bad endings."

One of the big causes of the 2008 meltdown was too much cheap money, he notes, "and there's a lot more now."

Mainstream economists can't agree on whether an orderly unwind can happen. But then, as Don Johnston points out, "economists don't know what they don't know."

Meanwhile, the central bankers all seem to have landed on the same side of the issue, and are marching in step, urging people to borrow and spend for the good of all.

"Ultimately," says Carney, "history will judge whether we got this right."

This same predicament has cycled throughout history.

Just to take this briefly off topic (mods could move this), yet related, on this matter of governing money, similar (albeit much less) to the Rumsfeld announcement of disappeared cash at the pentagon in 2001 before it went into self inflicted poof mode, came this today from the 'Auditor General' (AG):

_http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/04/30/pol-auditor-general-spring-report-federal-spending.html

Canada can't account for $3.1B in anti-terror funding, AG finds

The AG says here:

"It's a matter of missing that last link in putting that information together," he said at a news conference in Ottawa Tuesday morning. If the money was reallocated from the anti-terrorism program to another program, there should have been approval for that, he added.
"We don’t have enough information to say whether that happened," he said.

Wonder how deep this goes across the globe, yet in Canada, it is ok, Harper comes along and says:

Prime Minister Stephen Harper said the issue raised by Ferguson has nothing to do with the improper use of money, but rather with the categorization of spending by different departments over the years.

"There's some lack of clarity, the auditor general's made some suggestions on how we can be more clear in our tracking in the future. We will do that," Harper said in question period. "Unlike the NDP, we remain fully committed to legislation and to expenditures to protect Canadians from terrorism."
Treasury Board president Tony Clement said there are no allegations of misspent or misallocated money and that Parliament was "in the loop" on how money was spent.

"All government spending, every nickel and dime is reported to Parliament and accounted for each and every year in the public accounts," he told reporters.

Sure, nothing happening here, move along. Somewhat unrelated yet covered in the same report was this notice of a point by the AG; from the "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" and promises with the natives in terms of the residential schools - this was said:

• The Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the government are not acting in a spirit of reconciliation to create a complete historical record of the residential school system, and there is no plan on how to resolve their disputes.

Well of course, they have no spirit to act, just hollow words as always.
 
To be honest when making my comment above I thought the radio show was just starting... I've yet to listen to it, so its not in context to that specifically. Agree though with you Windmill knight and Pob, global currency centrally controlled is not a good move. Another thing is tax, it would be far easier to enforce tax and create more bogus tax statutes, or call it "transaction fees" that could basically take effect on every single transaction like buying furniture from a friend or perhaps giving monetary gifts to family members...certainly cuts out all "cash in hand" jobs. But cashless doesn't necessarily mean centralised control, I was more thinking along the lines of how mobile credit has been used in Africa for a while now as a people's cashless currency that for the most part bypasses banks and centralised control. But perhaps this was all covered in the show, if so apologies if I'm just repeating things discussed.
 
alkhemst said:
To be honest when making my comment above I thought the radio show was just starting... I've yet to listen to it, so its not in context to that specifically. Agree though with you Windmill knight and Pob, global currency centrally controlled is not a good move. Another thing is tax, it would be far easier to enforce tax and create more bogus tax statutes, or call it "transaction fees" that could basically take effect on every single transaction like buying furniture from a friend or perhaps giving monetary gifts to family members...certainly cuts out all "cash in hand" jobs. But cashless doesn't necessarily mean centralised control, I was more thinking along the lines of how mobile credit has been used in Africa for a while now as a people's cashless currency that for the most part bypasses banks and centralised control. But perhaps this was all covered in the show, if so apologies if I'm just repeating things discussed.

No need to apologise it's a thought provoking topic. Good example with Africa, it wasn't mentioned and is an interesting case study. I do think though that us humans are innovative creatures and would not be surprised if informal barter economies, alternative payment systems and black-market systems sprung up in response.
 
Here is the last of this three part series by Neil Macdonald:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/04/30/f-rfa-macdonald-monarchs-money-secrecy.html

Just a side note on the photo in this article, whereby it features the bankers standing in front of a sign for the 'G-20 Finance Ministers and Central Banks Governors Meeting April 15 Washington, DC'. Funny because; and i try to stay aware of these events, however this one of course became eclipsed by the Boston thing just days earlier, so once again, not a word is said.

I've included the whole article here and mad a couple of bolds and {comments}

CBC said:
The secretive world of printing money - The case for more public scrutiny of the central banks. Power Shift 3

Consider this: As America agonizes and argues over the pain of government cuts totalling about $85 billion next year, the U.S. Federal Reserve is printing that much every month.

Its current balance sheet — the amount of money it has created, the bulk of it in the past five years — stands at $3.2 trillion, about twice Canada's entire annual economic output.

The European Central Bank's balance sheet is even higher at $3.45 trillion, and others, like Japan, are racing to catch up.

The central bankers

When the record of the 2008 global financial catastrophe is fully written — that story remains a work in progress — the leaders of the world's central banks will emerge either as heroes, or the people who administered a cure that turned out to be as bad as the disease.

As of late last year, these central banks had printed about $17.4 trillion in new money, just over half of it in the past five years. That total is roughly a quarter of the annual economic output of the entire planet, and stock markets, banks and real estate have risen on this tide of cheap money.

Three of these bankers in particular will go down in history: Ben Bernanke of the U.S. Federal Reserve, Mario Draghi of the European Central Bank, and Canada's own Mark Carney, soon to be the governor of the Bank of England.

The world's central bankers are, in a sense, modern alchemists: They create these unimaginable sums of money out of binary electronic signals — to buy, among other things, government and retail bank debt and securities — with a few strokes of computer keys.

It's not an act they allow to be filmed or otherwise recorded. Actually, they permit very little recording of anything they do.

The plain fact is that these central bankers, Canada's Mark Carney among them, are executing what is perhaps the most profoundly important public policy of our time — an unprecedented printing of money and lowering of interest rates — with little in the way of public debate.

Such debate that is taking place is at rarefied levels among macroeconomists and other academics, or in the feverish blogs of the far right, whose members tend to see government conspiracy in just about everything.

But at least they're paying attention. Much of the mainstream media, fixated as it is on political horse races, is largely ignoring what's happening. There are honourable exceptions — economics specialists in certain newspapers and business-focused cable channels — but they are few.

The general public mostly hasn't a clue. Neither do many elected politicians, judging by some of the things they say publicly about the subject.

Hiding the bad news.

What these bankers do with this new money they print is buy government debt, or shore up failing banks or teetering national economies or industries like housing or insurance, part of the policy they call quantitative easing.

They say, and many respectable experts support them, that quantitative easing has saved entire economies from imploding.

They also say — high priest-like — that they must keep the details of their discussions secret because their words could be misinterpreted, and entire markets could move on a misunderstanding.

And they stress they are operating entirely within the mandates given them by elected governments.

That's as may be.

It was thrust upon them because the private sector made enormous, stupid, ruinous blunders, and because elected politicians were too terrified to make all the deeply unpopular decisions, like whether to let more banks fail, that had to be made when the financial meltdown started feeding on itself.
Politicians, given the chance, kick the can down the road; central bankers act.

{this above was amusing; like "we had to do it because of them" type of thing, some truth, yet are they not always steering the economic ship?}

But because of their mandate to maintain economic stability, they like to hide the bad news, or obscure it with vague euphemisms.

The transcripts of the U.S. Federal Reserve meetings make fascinating reading, even though they're only published five years after the decisions are made.

But the tone is a bit patronizing. Transparency and informing the public is clearly not high on the governors' agenda. They have drawn what one British financial regulator called a "veil of ignorance" around the subject of money printing.

"They see something coming, they may be right, they may be wrong. But they are bound not to tell the folks what they feel and see for fear that it will upset the system," says William Greider, an author and keen student of the U.S. Federal Reserve.

In Canada, Britain and Europe, central banks never release transcripts of internal discussions.

But while economists are divided on the wisdom of all this money printing, the central bankers aren't: They've marched together, to the same tune, since 2008, making a giant collective bet.

{while mind you, enriching the few}

Don't tell the punters

Not since early last century, when the central bankers of Great Britain, Germany, France and Europe acted in concert to try to remediate the market crash of 1929, has such a radical policy been implemented on such a global basis.

Of course, those central bankers of yore did the exact opposite of quantitative easing. They actually tightened the money supply, and are generally blamed for having created the Great Depression.

That bit of history goes a long way to explain why today's central bankers are running the printing presses almost nonstop.

But there are huge implications for everyone in what's happening.

Some economists warn it will lead to inflation, or hyperinflation. So far, it hasn't because consumers, investors, and businesses, still nervous and wary, have sat on what cash they have, rather than embark on the sort of spending sprees the central banks are now trying to encourage.

But certainly all this QE has distorted asset prices, and pushed some stock markets to all-time highs.

It has also fuelled heavy borrowing and real estate bubbles in parts of the world. And it has punished people with savings, older people especially, by artificially depressing interest rates and the return on their money.

Should the money printing continue?

In the U.S., the far right sees the practice as a government conspiracy to destroy the money system.

Some days it feels like almost every second advertisement on Fox News these past few years has been for gold, supposedly the eternal hedge. Some crackpots are even planting survival gardens in anticipation of systemic failure.

The political left supports even more money printing, along the lines that Japan has recently embarked upon (a doubling over the next two years).

Among the suggestions: Lend directly to companies that need credit. Send free money to every household. Do whatever is needed to kick-start growth.

The fact is, it's impossible to know where all this is going, or whether the central banks, having addicted governments and consumers to cheap money, can close the money taps without enormous disruption to the system.

But it's something that screams for public discussion.

"It may be time for modern citizens to get educated about their own capitalism," says Greider, who says there is nothing democratically healthy about the bankers' opaque discussions and decisions on a scale like this.

Lord Adair Turner, the outgoing chairman of Britain's now-defunct banking regulator (the Financial Services Authority), summed up the bankers' attitude in February in a speech at London's City University. {again in bold}(It was there he spoke of "the veil of ignorance" in which bankers like to shroud their handiwork.)

Considered a front-runner last year for the Bank of England's top job (the one that went to Mark Carney), Turner suggested that the times are so dire that the central bank should consider simply printing every pound the British government needed to borrow, effectively monetizing its deficits, a practice, he concedes, that is generally considered taboo.

The problem in doing that, said Turner, is telling the hoi-polloi.

"Once we tell the populace and the popular press and the backbenchers of Parliament that this is possible, they'll want to do it not only in the one year out of 100 when it's appropriate, and not only in a reasonable amount, but all the time and in excessive amounts to try and win the next election."

Turner is right, to an extent. Politicians can certainly be pusillanimous fools, and voters uninformed. It would be nice if they weren't, but it is ultimately their right.

Still, unelected officials that operate at the behest of governments have no business cloaking such profound decisions. Few topics deserve more attention.
 
I think the above article didn't really go into why it's created. Basically as I understand it's made to keep people and governments in debt. Came across some good quotes on that:

Banks lend by creating credit. They create the means of payment out of nothing.

Ralph M. Hawtrey, former Secretary of the British Treasury

When a government is dependent upon bankers for money,
they and not the leaders of the government control the situation,
since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes.

Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism
and without decency; their sole object is gain.

Napoleon Bonaparte

Seems like people and governments are cornered in to borrow money and pay it back with interest to self appointed magicians that create money out of thin air, keeping everyone in servitude. A very big and disastrous scam in my opinion.
 
alkhemst said:
I think the above article didn't really go into why it's created. Basically as I understand it's made to keep people and governments in debt. Came across some good quotes on that:

Banks lend by creating credit. They create the means of payment out of nothing.

Ralph M. Hawtrey, former Secretary of the British Treasury

When a government is dependent upon bankers for money,
they and not the leaders of the government control the situation,
since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes.

Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism
and without decency; their sole object is gain.

Napoleon Bonaparte

Quite right, nothing new to readers here, yet the article is MSN in Canada and they don't usually light these things up, osit. The average person reading this in the MSN may start to read other things, look in other directions or at the very least, question more.
 
voyageur said:
alkhemst said:
I think the above article didn't really go into why it's created. Basically as I understand it's made to keep people and governments in debt. Came across some good quotes on that:

Banks lend by creating credit. They create the means of payment out of nothing.

Ralph M. Hawtrey, former Secretary of the British Treasury

When a government is dependent upon bankers for money,
they and not the leaders of the government control the situation,
since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes.

Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism
and without decency; their sole object is gain.

Napoleon Bonaparte

Quite right, nothing new to readers here, yet the article is MSN in Canada and they don't usually light these things up, osit. The average person reading this in the MSN may start to read other things, look in other directions or at the very least, question more.

Does seem to point to a PR to reduce confidence in our banking systems, while the planned and unavoidable crash is in our midst. So yeah, makes sense that "solution" already in place would be Bitcoin or similar.
 
alkhemst said:
Does seem to point to a PR to reduce confidence in our banking systems, while the planned and unavoidable crash is in our midst. So yeah, makes sense that "solution" already in place would be Bitcoin or similar.

I don't really know, seeds are being planted it seems, yet bankers and their system fiat printing presses that most of us are enslaved are kind of like phantoms, they have their fronts, but the rest is unseen. If and when things tumble further, people will want to blame and the politicians, who have no spines, can point at them and they will not really be there, and may just as likely ride back in again with excuses (as seen in the article) and solutions to save the day with new electronic economic ways.
 
The printing that all central banks are doing is hidden in the forex markets since the indexes (quotes -bid/ask) are always relative to another currency. A look at any of these pairs tells you nothing about the true buying power of any one of the currencies.

The real measure of this is the price of gold in these currencies - and explains why the price of gold must be managed.

There are many pundits out there that proclaim that the financial PTB made a great mistake hammering gold - evidenced by the strong worldwide demand that resulted. These forces aren't stupid and I think they did what they had to do to extend the life of the current monetary regime. If they were to allow gold to rise in (even discounted) proportion to the central bank printing, the risk of bringing in institutional investors (pension funds, hedge funds, etc) into the physical gold market rises. Just a few of these giant investors would bring a very quick end to the game.

These institutional investors are very sensitive to their quarterly earnings statements. They will not take the risk (in the physical gold market) when the price of gold can be hammered down 20% in a matter of days - they just won't do it. They will take low-yield bonds/equities before risking their client's quarterly statements to big negative swings. The message from the PTB to these giant investors is clear - stay away from physical gold.

IMO, the PTB has succeeded in delaying the end game to fit whatever time line they are working to.
 
Windmill knight said:
alkhemst said:
1n some ways, just being the devil's advocate here, it wouldn't be majorly different whether we're in a cashless society or not. I mean cash in itself (even gold / silver), is pretty much worthless in the sense that it has no useful physical function. Its only worth is the collective agreement of value we give it, the same would apply to digital currency, or whatever form of currency we create. Money is more like a contract between two or more parties to help negotiate fair exchange for real or perceived value. So in that sense a cashless currency is just as open for manipulation and control because as a human race presently caught up in all sorts of collective and personal delusions, our idea of what's valuable (or what constitutes something having value) is highly distorted and so can be easily influenced in a negative direction. So its sort of the same house but new coat of paint type of thing in my opinion.

There is one big difference. With electronic money, your 'money' is always in somebody else's server. You wouldn't be able to make any transaction without being watched, no matter how small. The system can be used for a very tight control of society because it holds all the chips.

Would you rebel or even express your opposing opinions towards the system if you knew that all your wealth could be 'unplugged' from you at any time? Suppose once the system is totally set, they decide a couple of years down the line to punish dissent by restricting access to e-money. Suppose they declare you guilty of some offense you didn't even commit and they take a huge amount from you without your consent to pay for a 'fine'. Suppose military service becomes compulsory and you need to do it to get access to your salary. Suppose that you didn't break any laws but you are known to be a potential problem, and one day without any explanation you have 90% less money than you used to, and no one can give you any explanation, nor will they even believe that you had the amount you claim, because the computers don't lie.

What will you or any of us do then? It seems to me that the cashless society would be the ultimate form of Orwellian control. It enables so many points of pressure on the population that weren't available to the PTB before - not at such detailed level of control.

A very powerful point in case of how much a cashless society would favor totalitarianism is what is happening in Cyprus. One day the government decides that the only way to pay its debts is to skim all the accounts of the population without the people's consent. If the people don't have a chance to change their e-money into cash, gold or some other physical type of valuable, they cannot stop it.

Very good point, Wk, osit.
I know of a German family that were self-employed that had their assets frozen a few years ago, because they home educated their kids. Home ed is illegal in Germany. They had to flee the country. I don't know what happened to their assets.
But that is one reason why I think gold and silver are better than all your money in the bank. Woolly pigs or other treasures are also preferable, although gvt can steal anything if they set their mind to it. :O :evil:
 
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