Show #40 - Nora Gedgaudas Interview: Beyond Paleo - Primal Ice Age Diet

[Nicholas]

SOTT Talk Radio is batting 1000 lately! Another one hit out of the park! Great show, guys!

I do concur!

I'm very curious about trying neurofeedback. Did anyone catch that names of the technology Nora recommended the practitioners be using?

Here is the website featuring Neuroamp2 and Cygnet: http://www.beemedic.com/

 

[Gwenllian]

I have significant doubt that an essential psychopath would ever seek treatment of any kind for what they do not see as anything but a personal advantage over most people. Those that would seek treatment would likely suffer from a spectrum of issues that originated in early life. So I would think that NG is primarily seeing patients from the latter group - not essential psychopaths.

I was also wondering whether it could work with psychopaths whose pathology was genetic, instead of it being early life trauma.
I did find it striking that Nora dismissed the fact that psychopathy can also be genetic. As far as I remember she didn't offer any explanation or facts.

 

[Drazen]

I have significant doubt that an essential psychopath would ever seek treatment of any kind for what they do not see as anything but a personal advantage over most people. Those that would seek treatment would likely suffer from a spectrum of issues that originated in early life. So I would think that NG is primarily seeing patients from the latter group - not essential psychopaths.

Yes, that is what I think too. Maybe if there will be some further contact with her in the near future (by the chateau crew) they could share the knowledge about essential psychopathy with her. With all the information that is available she could benefit from it greatly, if she chooses to.

It was a really great show, thanks! :)

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I did find it striking that Nora dismissed the fact that psychopathy can also be genetic. As far as I remember she didn't offer any explanation or facts.

To be fair, there's no direct evidence that psychopathy is genetic. It is highly heritable, but there's no known psychopathy gene. We'll need to learn a lot more about DNA before we can pinpoint exactly how genes contribute to specific personality types. That said, I do think she is giving nurture over nature too much emphasis. But it would be interesting to see if neurofeedback has any effect on adult psychopaths (as opposed to children with callous unemotional traits and conduct disorder, which Nora has worked with).

 

[Jasmine]

I did find it striking that Nora dismissed the fact that psychopathy can also be genetic. As far as I remember she didn't offer any explanation or facts.

To be fair, there's no direct evidence that psychopathy is genetic. It is highly heritable, but there's no known psychopathy gene. We'll need to learn a lot more about DNA before we can pinpoint exactly how genes contribute to specific personality types. That said, I do think she is giving nurture over nature too much emphasis. But it would be interesting to see if neurofeedback has any effect on adult psychopaths (as opposed to children with callous unemotional traits and conduct disorder, which Nora has worked with).

Her response to this specific subject gave me the impression she was wavering just a tad outside of her area of expertise. She sounded almost as if she was quoting "old science' textbook jargon regarding this specific matter. It also sounded like she had little experience with adults in this specific area. Regarding her experience with children in this area, her finding's don't surprise me much. It is quite understandable and plausible that Neurofeedback would have a positive effect on a pathological child, independent of how the pathology emerged. The longterm effect of the positive results is what I would call into question. And I'm thinking that would take years of research form a pool of hundreds if not thousands of pathological labeled children. From all the data we have on psychopaths, it's clear that they function with normal intelligence, and are similar to souled people in many other ways, so it's not surprising that as a child they would respond favorably to Neurofeedback. I would even go out on a limb and with a vague notion that Neirofeedback would have positive effects for the adult psychopath. But without any evidence proving otherwise I would think those positive effects would neither "cure" nor would they have any substantial "positive" effect on the "core traits" of a adult psychopath.

This was just an off the cuff analyses as to how I perceived this specific area of the dialog. I feel a little out of my comfort zone espousing my opinions on a this subject especially given the fact that both Psychopathology, and Neurofeedback are relatively new subjects for me. In other words I'm speaking as a layman on topics I know little about, and I'm practicing putting more complex thoughts into written form.

With that said It was exceedingly evident that Nora Gedgaudas is an expert in her field and her work and research are on the cutting edge of new science and technology. I applaud her work. And the information she provided about the Paleo diet was fascinating. I especially liked her analogy of how we have a choice in how to obtain our fuel energy from food. We can stand there and kindle the fire all day, with unhealthy detrimental foods, or we can load up on Keto's and take off and enjoy our day. That is exactly what it felt like for me when I went all the way over to Keto, meat & fat diet. I had absolutely no cravings, and was completely satisfied all day long. It also had a great effect on my mood, I felt calmer and could think clearer. (I speak of it in past tense because I have a discipline problem in this area of my diet, but I'm not too far off base.) I look forward to the reading her book and ebooks that she mentioned will soon to be available.

 

[theos]

Great show. I really appreciated how the SOTT crew really picked Nora's brain on neurofeedback, really trying to nail down the nuts and bolts of it.

There's a neurofeedback practitioner in my area who uses the NeurOptimal Zengar method: _http://www.zengar.com/
I'm curious to give it a shot.

I have significant doubt that an essential psychopath would ever seek treatment of any kind for what they do not see as anything but a personal advantage over most people. Those that would seek treatment would likely suffer from a spectrum of issues that originated in early life. So I would think that NG is primarily seeing patients from the latter group - not essential psychopaths.

I agree. True psychopaths don't think that there's anything wrong with them and would be unlikely to seek treatment unless they were forced under court order. Any treatment they would undergo would likely just make them better at manipulating people.

 

[Nienna]

Great show. I really appreciated how the SOTT crew really picked Nora's brain on neurofeedback, really trying to nail down the nuts and bolts of it.

There's a neurofeedback practitioner in my area who uses the NeurOptimal Zengar method: _http://www.zengar.com/
I'm curious to give it a shot.

I have significant doubt that an essential psychopath would ever seek treatment of any kind for what they do not see as anything but a personal advantage over most people. Those that would seek treatment would likely suffer from a spectrum of issues that originated in early life. So I would think that NG is primarily seeing patients from the latter group - not essential psychopaths.

I agree. True psychopaths don't think that there's anything wrong with them and would be unlikely to seek treatment unless they were forced under court order. Any treatment they would undergo would likely just make them better at manipulating people.

That part that I put in bold has been on my mind, too. It seems that this neurofeedback could help them to be more convincing at having emotions and empathy. Better than looking in a mirror and seeing if you have the right face for the right emotion.

 

[Turgon]

Great show. I really appreciated how the SOTT crew really picked Nora's brain on neurofeedback, really trying to nail down the nuts and bolts of it.

There's a neurofeedback practitioner in my area who uses the NeurOptimal Zengar method: _http://www.zengar.com/
I'm curious to give it a shot.

I have significant doubt that an essential psychopath would ever seek treatment of any kind for what they do not see as anything but a personal advantage over most people. Those that would seek treatment would likely suffer from a spectrum of issues that originated in early life. So I would think that NG is primarily seeing patients from the latter group - not essential psychopaths.

I agree. True psychopaths don't think that there's anything wrong with them and would be unlikely to seek treatment unless they were forced under court order. Any treatment they would undergo would likely just make them better at manipulating people.

That part that I put in bold has been on my mind, too. It seems that this neurofeedback could help them to be more convincing at having emotions and empathy. Better than looking in a mirror and seeing if you have the right face for the right emotion.

I'm having the chance to listen to the interview over again and I'm not sure if it would make them better at manipulating people. Neurofeedback is kind of like looking in the mirror from a brain functionality standpoint and if essential psychopaths have limbic systems or certain parts of the brain that do not function like that of people who have the potential to express genuine emotions, doing this type of therapy might reflect back that there's little to no activity in those areas (if they are the areas being monitored) rather than give them another tool to manipulate people. It's one thing to pretend to have empathy and real emotions but another to fake it on a screen that's monitoring your brain activity, osit.

 

[Voyageur]

I did find it striking that Nora dismissed the fact that psychopathy can also be genetic. As far as I remember she didn't offer any explanation or facts.

To be fair, there's no direct evidence that psychopathy is genetic. It is highly heritable, but there's no known psychopathy gene. We'll need to learn a lot more about DNA before we can pinpoint exactly how genes contribute to specific personality types. That said, I do think she is giving nurture over nature too much emphasis. But it would be interesting to see if neurofeedback has any effect on adult psychopaths (as opposed to children with callous unemotional traits and conduct disorder, which Nora has worked with).

After reading this, was thinking if it was ever used in prisons, which would likley capture a sample of psychopathy. In this article in EEG Info, it discusses prisons and neurofeedback:

Prison wardens and prison officials take a dim view these days of the rehabilitation potential of major criminals. We who are involved in neurofeedback, however, know that diminished emotional capacities such as the lack of empathy or the capacity for remorse, are software issues in the brain that are perfectly susceptible to remediation at any age. This may not be sufficient to allow the release of a leader of the Arian Brotherhood back into the wild, but it might very well be sufficient to give Michael Vick a genuine sense of remorse about what he was involved in. Most criminals are released back into society sooner or later. Better that they be reinforced in their emotional capacities before that happens, for whatever that may be worth.
[...]
It had always mystified me why the utilization of neurofeedback wasn’t extended to the entire patient population at CRI-Help after that successful study. It turns out that the study never succeeded in altering the belief system of those who work there, despite the solid evidence. Addiction continues to be seen as primarily a moral and character issue. If patients come in with ADHD or panic or other conditions, then they are referred for neurofeedback. For plain old addiction, they get the standard CRI-Help treatment. So, technology transfer is tough, and old belief systems are tenacious.

The California Prison Crisis

The financial crisis in California is a manufactured one, but by now it is real enough. Finally, a Federal judge ordered the State to relieve prison over-crowding, so wholesale early release of inmates is being planned in response. If that occurs, non-violent offenders will be favored, and these tend to be either drug users or those involved in the drug trade. Would it not be nice if all of those could get the benefit of neurofeedback before they were released? The recidivism rate in California is running at 70% here these days, so early release will mostly result in cost-shifting to other parts of the criminal justice system that have to deal with the fallout—re-apprehension, retrial, and recommitment—with a predictable net increase in cost to the society overall. The solution to all of this is standing by.

Siegfried Othmer, Ph.D.

_http://www.eeginfo.com/newsletter/?p=441

 

[SeekinTruth]

Interesting discussion about neurofeedback. I have the Show cued up and will be listening shortly. I'll pay particular attention to the neurofeedback discussion in the show. Thanks for the thoughts so far.

 

[Laura]

I'm having the chance to listen to the interview over again and I'm not sure if it would make them better at manipulating people. Neurofeedback is kind of like looking in the mirror from a brain functionality standpoint and if essential psychopaths have limbic systems or certain parts of the brain that do not function like that of people who have the potential to express genuine emotions, doing this type of therapy might reflect back that there's little to no activity in those areas (if they are the areas being monitored) rather than give them another tool to manipulate people. It's one thing to pretend to have empathy and real emotions but another to fake it on a screen that's monitoring your brain activity, osit.

Yes, this is most likely correct. I think I read something about the most usual brain waves of psychopaths once and if I recall (someone may need to look this up) they actually spent a lot of time in fairly peaceful brain waves because they don't experience stress. So brain waves probably would not be the way to "fix" psychopaths. For all we know, their brains would reflect peace whilst committing atrocities.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Finished listening to it a couple of hours ago. The neurofeedback discussion WAS really interesting. I can see how it went so long before getting to the Paleo Diet on the show. So many of us seem to know so much more about the diet background than the neurofeedback topic.

I'm thinking she didn't work with essential psychopaths, as others have mentioned. Another clue is that she was calling them sociopaths and describing children with very overt antisocial traits and behaviors. The worst essential psychopaths do NOT openly show antisocial traits and behaviors, and become very successful in hierarchical societies.

 

[Nienna]

I'm having the chance to listen to the interview over again and I'm not sure if it would make them better at manipulating people. Neurofeedback is kind of like looking in the mirror from a brain functionality standpoint and if essential psychopaths have limbic systems or certain parts of the brain that do not function like that of people who have the potential to express genuine emotions, doing this type of therapy might reflect back that there's little to no activity in those areas (if they are the areas being monitored) rather than give them another tool to manipulate people. It's one thing to pretend to have empathy and real emotions but another to fake it on a screen that's monitoring your brain activity, osit.

Yes, this is most likely correct. I think I read something about the most usual brain waves of psychopaths once and if I recall (someone may need to look this up) they actually spent a lot of time in fairly peaceful brain waves because they don't experience stress. So brain waves probably would not be the way to "fix" psychopaths. For all we know, their brains would reflect peace whilst committing atrocities.

Yep. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Gaby]

I just listened to this show and found it extremely fascinating and useful. Never thought about neurofeedback as such a handy tool.

Nora talked about reactive attachment disorder and how these people express extreme over-arousal, not being able to feel much of anything except helpless infancy and terror which gets transformed into a state of rage and a host of controlling issues. She adds that they can work intellectually just fine, but there is a coldness and an inability to feel empathy and that there is a foundational insecurity - people only feel safe when they feel power over others. How Nora described it seemed very appropriate: people are completely unable to self-regulate and it is basically a mutilation of people's psyches. I've recently reviewed these very same concepts, which is a more damaging "narcissistic family" thing in this thread: Emotion Regulation Deficits as Mediators Between Trauma Exposure and Borderline

These posts:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,31401.msg449369.html#msg449369
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,31401.msg451422.html#msg451422

show several garden varieties of how the defensive mechanisms manifest and also various grades of severity including complex PTSD which comes from pervasive emotional neglect almost 24/7 throughout basically most of the person's developmental stage. A more average/bell curve manifestation would be the splitting problems exposed on the Splitting and Internal Consideration thread.

My guess is that neurofeedback works better in most severe cases of attachment disorder because the person basically doesn't trust anyone except his or her defense mechanisms that helped the person survived. Nobody can possibly be trusted due to the wounds. Nora said something among the lines that psychotherapy doesn't work because you have to be able to bond with another human being, with the psychotherapist in this case. So when there is feedback from the person's very brain, they can certainly relate to that. They can get feedback on how they feel and function in a way they can accept which will then give some results provided the person is willing and does something about the feedback.

This quote from an article recently published on sott is also very interesting:

Train the brain: Using neurofeedback as a treatment for ADHD
http://www.sott.net/article/268308-Train-the-brain-Using-neurofeedback-as-a-treatment-for-ADHD

Ellison says she tried meditation, but her mind kept wandering. Neurofeedback is better for people with ADHD, she says, because it provides constant feedback during a session, which is usually done in a therapist's office.

I've started psychotherapy a month ago and find it is like a bird's eye view into one's life story. As I'm starting to integrate the feedback I get from my psychotherapist and as it will be an ongoing processes for some time to come, I started to wonder if there was another way to ascertain that some thought processes are still more of the dysregulated emotional issues or not. There is only so much you can go through in an hour a week with a psychotherapist. The rest is Work you have to do on your own so to speak. But it seems to me that neurofeedback gives a mirror/feedback a person needs for fine tuning as a complementary tool to the Work.

I found a neurofeedback center in my local area and while I think learning to bond and trust someone you can work with is irreplaceable when there are certain issues such as attachment disorders, I'm definitely interested in trying out the neurofeedback at some point in the very short future.

Thank you for this invaluable show!! A virtual hug to Nora Gedgaudas for being there and sharing her experiences

 

[Ollie]

Just listened to this show, fantastic, it will be great to get back on again.

Neuro-feedback sounds fascinating, could be potentially useful, will look around for someone locally. :)