Show#94: Remembering Gurdjieff - Interview with William Patrick Patterson Part 2

[Gary]

Thanks for a very interesting show guys! :)

As well, WPP seems to think he has reached a stage in his spiritual development that allows him to assume the role of teacher himself, because he believes he is one of the few who has awakened, thereby enabling him to don the mantle of teacher, within a traditional hierarchical framework of "me teacher, you students", rather than a collinear network of individuals who can provide input and feedback.
Anyhow, that's what I see, fwiw.

That was how I perceived it also. It just reinforces for me how absolutely essential 'networking' with collinear folk is, as an integral aspect of our respective individual spiritual journeys.

Looking forward to next weeks 'connecting the dots' show already! :)

 

[mkrnhr]

I found the interview interesting and very fun to listen to. There were some interesting points regarding the book, which is itself a good read to have some historical perspective on Gurdjieff's work. It does not answer all the questions we may have of course, but what book in the world would do that. There was the same subjective impression that a psychic battle of some sort was fought in the background as with the first interview, and having Joe and Niall dealing with the situation with humour and strategic external considering (not only to the guest but also to the listeners) was great and I hope it gave some listeners some idea on how to be mature in this kind of situations.
Having listened to some other interviews of WPP and watched his documentary, his attitude during the interview was not a surprise, it was just a continuation of how it was during the first interview with less control apparently.

Last night I read Gurdjieff's booklet "The Herald of Coming Good" where two excepts stood up regarding some aspects of the interview:

In the present period of my life, when declining in years, after having had everything to satiety that life can offer to a human being, and having been thereby fully disillusioned in everything, and consequently possessing in the highest degree all data enabling me to be my impartial, I, calling on Heaven and Earth to witness my sincerity and swearing by the peace of my conscience after death, now, based on the convictions established in my consciousness, proclaim in the hearing of all:

The fundamental cause of almost all the misunderstandings arising in the inner world of man, as well as in the process of the communal life of people, is chiefly this psychic factor, which is formed in man's being during the period of preparatory age exclusively on account of a wrong education, and in the period of responsible age each stimulation of which gives birth in him to the impulses of "Vanity" and "Self-Conceit".

And, addressing his former students,

I gave all my time up to you. And you thanks only to this, if you do not possess, chiefly because of your criminal laziness, and also because, I confess now, meeting you then as I did, I was inwardly pursuing an altogether different aim, that which you ought to have, and which, when I then satisfied, with complete honesty on my side, your curiosity, and sometimes even perhaps your love of knowledge, you acquired imperceptibly from yourself and have now in your individuality: first of all, the necessary feeling of "self-valuation", which gives you the possibility of feeling yourself superior to the average man, and, secondly, you have in you the preliminary required data for entering with the help of my detailed and written explanations and indications upon the path leading to real Being.

WPP has his own understanding of the Work, and it seems in his writing that he wanted to distance himself so much from the Ouspanskii intellectual line that he rejected all form of intellectual knowledge. That's his own path and that's okay. On the other hand, the Gurdjieffian system of knowledge includes Knowledge through its different manifestations: body, emotion and intellect and the proper balance and interconnectedness between them. One possibility that occurred to me was that WPP was playing a role, maybe trying to emulate Gurdjieff's role playing in his "artificial life" in order to impress (and recruit?). However, the "Vanity" program above-mentioned, or self-importance, may have taken control of the process, which seems to be the case towards the end of the interview when some emotional triggering started to become apparent. He would have supposed that the listeners from the current era would be more interested in the kind of navel-gazing "spirituality", hence the new-agy flavour. That would be true in general. However, people here have done their homework and it was refreshing (and fun) to see the interaction on the chat room. The reaction to "are you awake yourself" "Of course" was hilarious. Having the BS-meter function in real-time (with humour, data, sharing of objective and subjective impressions, etc.) may be a sign that some knowledge is being absorbed to the core being, to the hardware so to speak, not not just as a software running in the frontal cortex anymore. "Of course", is doesn't mean we are "awake" LOL.

So, it was fun, and that's how learning is. Just a few personal thoughts among others that haven't matured yet.

 

[kinyash]

Thanks for another amazing show and Kudos to Joe and Niall for being excellent "external considering" hosts.

WPP is quite an interesting guy and quite genuine in his efforts. However, having purchased most of his books and videos, I recognised some time ago that he definitely did not have the whole banana. WPP never actually met G but was the student of Lord P who was chosen by G to lead the work in America. If I recall correctly, he did not even last in the work but after some time fell out with the group he was working with.

I think WPP is trying to emulate G and especially how G behaved during the war years. In one of the books about the G movement in Paris during the war (sorry I forget the title), the author noted that in the meetings nothing about the war was discussed. Despite the fact that for some of the students attending the meetings was a life and death affair (i.e. if they encountered a patrol on the way, they could easily be detained or killed), yet no mention at all was made by G regarding the war and the difficulties that all members of the group were facing. Everyone was given exercises to go and practice and then report back at the next meeting. In this way G was able to get his students to focus on their spiritual development despite the difficulties that they were all experiencing. The fact that G was able to get a quorum shows that they deeply valued the meetings. There are several problems with WPP's attempting to use the same approach in today's environment (i.e. only focus on your own inner growth and forget about external factors, history etc). First of all there is a lot more knowledge in circulation than thee was in the '40s - people are much more aware (or at least those on this forum!). Secondly the kind of war being fought right now is a battle for our minds and souls. Being objective is the hardest thing of all as we all have our biases and deep seated (false) beliefs that have been masterfully cultivated by the PTB. Just knowing that our opinions are likely to be faulty and the reasons why is a step towards "awakening". Yet believing that you are awakening probably means that you have fallen even deeper into the dark pit of slumber! You cannot awaken on your own effort and you must have a group or mirror to reflect your views in a way that reveals the false beliefs and humbles you so that you are able to grow. Indeed the group itself must also have a higher source of knowledge which acts as a lighthouse to constantly align them in the right direction and avoid the rocks of self deceit, pride and confusion. (Personally I know of only one group that meets the spec ;D )

WPP's experience that he talked about where he was "there but not there, only pure consciousness" took me right back to my new age days of "being in the moment" , "being in the body" and "only this moment matters, its a gift and that's why its called the present!" :P

Is WPP awake? Well look at some of his responses and judge for yourself:

-his comments about Putin
-his quoted "enlightened persons"
-his comments about history (here I would say that if you ignore the lessons of history, then you are doomed to repeat them. If you are ignorant of the lessons of history then voila, you are stuck in time!)

Once again an excellent show and the hosts were indeed brilliant. For the brilliance to show WPP was the perfect guest. They all made my day! (night)

Kinyash

 

[Niall]

I got an email yesterday from Mr. Patterson's people. It is not in response to a question, although it is formulated that way:

Hello Niall,

Mr. Patterson wishes to say thank you for the radio interview which he very much enjoyed. Also, he says, yes, he understands that you are a student of Mrs. Laura Knight-Jadczyk and his "recruiting" was only to illustrate for the listeners where they themselves were.

Best Regards,

T****

 

[Alana]

I got an email yesterday from Mr. Patterson's people. It is not in response to a question, although it is formulated that way:

Hello Niall,

Mr. Patterson wishes to say thank you for the radio interview which he very much enjoyed. Also, he says, yes, he understands that you are a student of Mrs. Laura Knight-Jadczyk and his "recruiting" was only to illustrate for the listeners where they themselves were.

Best Regards,

T****

What does the bolded part mean?

 

[Aiming]

I got an email yesterday from Mr. Patterson's people. It is not in response to a question, although it is formulated that way:

Hello Niall,

Mr. Patterson wishes to say thank you for the radio interview which he very much enjoyed. Also, he says, yes, he understands that you are a student of Mrs. Laura Knight-Jadczyk and his "recruiting" was only to illustrate for the listeners where they themselves were.

Best Regards,

T****

What does the bolded part mean?

Fwiw, it seems to me like he's trying to make it appear like he was doing it consciously, as a lesson, as if doing some sort of impression management after the fact perhaps?

I agree with the others that Joe and Kniall, you really handled the interview with him well, and it was a good example in external considering as well as in steering the conversation back to the topic, as well as drawing limits when he was so obviously trying to 'circle you in', even becoming real pushy when doing his recruiting, and covering up his intentions with humor.

It was a very interesting show for a couple of reasons. The first one being that what was visible about Patterson already in the first show, became very apparent now. I also had the impression that he was lacking in Being and was stunned about his me-me-me stance, how everything that counts is him, while shutting out a huge part of reality, explicitly stating he doesn't care about history, next to his loopy excursions. His firm conviction of being awake then of course didn't make any sense whatsoever, because how can your conscience be awakened when you don't care enough to be informed about what's going on this world? How then would the felt need to help others arise when you don't even recognize the suffering on the planet, and when at the same time, you're enjoying living on this planet? That's missing with him, and at one point I thought he'd really benefit from having a teacher himself, or at least someone pointing out his huge blind spot - whether he'd be open for that is another question. Especially interesting, as noted before, was his repeated reference to overcoming vanity and self-love, which is exactly what he exhibited himself.

All in all, what it comes down to, despite his other good work in writing, is that he's spreading a corrupted version of G's teachings, and that's really unfortunate.

I do wonder whether the conversation with you guys got him to ponder over a few things and consider another perspective.

 

[paralleloscope]

Thanks for the show, very interesting!

I got an email yesterday from Mr. Patterson's people. It is not in response to a question, although it is formulated that way:

Hello Niall,

Mr. Patterson wishes to say thank you for the radio interview which he very much enjoyed. Also, he says, yes, he understands that you are a student of Mrs. Laura Knight-Jadczyk and his "recruiting" was only to illustrate for the listeners where they themselves were.

Best Regards,

T****

What does the bolded part mean?

My take is that he wants to make known that the recruiting game he was playing on the show, was for the listener to recognize their inner resistance which would surface, as in excuses or deflection when put on the spot about doing something about the work, as opposed to just reading about it. That he was putting it out there that narratives prevent us from Doing and what is needed is to 'join the teaching'. Which is true, but: On the show it didn't sound like WPP was aware or considered the possibility of any teacher already involved, otherwise I surmise his analysis of Joe's resistance would have sounded otherwise. I think this was cleared up nicely when one of his students called in in the post interview wrap up.

@Aiming: Yes, impression management is what it seems like.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I got an email yesterday from Mr. Patterson's people. It is not in response to a question, although it is formulated that way:

Hello Niall,

Mr. Patterson wishes to say thank you for the radio interview which he very much enjoyed. Also, he says, yes, he understands that you are a student of Mrs. Laura Knight-Jadczyk and his "recruiting" was only to illustrate for the listeners where they themselves were.

Best Regards,

T****

What does the bolded part mean?

I think it means that WPP was playing out a scenario with Joe that would mirror something similar in listeners: i.e., they think they can get by without a teacher, but in reality they need one. Whether it was intentional or not in the moment or not is another question, like Aiming said.

 

[Renaissance]

I think it means that WPP was playing out a scenario with Joe that would mirror something similar in listeners: i.e., they think they can get by without a teacher, but in reality they need one. Whether it was intentional or not in the moment or not is another question, like Aiming said.

I would think if a genuine teacher was intentionally doing this, that it's unlikely that he or she would follow up and say 'see this is what I was actually doing'. Sounds like he setup a narrative and would like others to believe it.

So, he's trying to convey he knew Joe would be resistant (because he already had a teacher) but was also trying to convey to the audience how someone without a teacher can be resistant? I think that falls flat.

 

[Joe]

I think it means that WPP was playing out a scenario with Joe that would mirror something similar in listeners: i.e., they think they can get by without a teacher, but in reality they need one. Whether it was intentional or not in the moment or not is another question, like Aiming said.

Well I think it was a misguided way to go about that, if that's what he intended. Challenging someone to "join up now!" using standard sales tactics will probably provoke resistance in most people, but that resistance probably has nothing to do with a resistance to his work or needing a teacher, but rather to the tactics. It's kind of like aggressively trying to get someone to drink some water from a glass. It's not that they don't know they need water, or that they wouldn't soon realise it, it's that they just don't want someone shoving it down their throat. Weird.

I also thought it was rather childish of him to try and get me to join and then, without me saying yes or no, or even showing any interest in the first place, but rather trying to remain neutral about it because, after all, this was an interview, he then declares that he "doesn't want me anyway".

 

[Alana]

I see! Thank you for the explanations.

Fwiw, it seems to me like he's trying to make it appear like he was doing it consciously, as a lesson, as if doing some sort of impression management after the fact perhaps?

That would make sense to me. Because during listening to the show, as part of the audience, I didn't experience said lesson.

On the show it didn't sound like WPP was aware or considered the possibility of any teacher already involved, otherwise I surmise his analysis of Joe's resistance would have sounded otherwise. I think this was cleared up nicely when one of his students called in in the post interview wrap up.

I would think if a genuine teacher was intentionally doing this, that it's unlikely that he or she would follow up and say 'see this is what I was actually doing'. Sounds like he setup a narrative and would like others to believe it.

So, he's trying to convey he knew Joe would be resistant (because he already had a teacher) but was also trying to convey to the audience how someone without a teacher can be resistant? I think that falls flat.

Yes, my thoughts exactly.

 

[Navigator]

T

-his comments about Putin
-his quoted "enlightened persons"
-his comments about history (here I would say that if you ignore the lessons of history, then you are doomed to repeat them. If you are ignorant of the lessons of history then voila, you are stuck in time!)

Picked up that too, and about the whole "situation in Ukraine" got me wondering. Did he buy the MSM storyline?

Niall's spontaneous reaction to the higher sources comment was great too!

 

[shijing]

T

-his comments about Putin
-his quoted "enlightened persons"
-his comments about history (here I would say that if you ignore the lessons of history, then you are doomed to repeat them. If you are ignorant of the lessons of history then voila, you are stuck in time!)

Picked up that too, and about the whole "situation in Ukraine" got me wondering. Did he buy the MSM storyline?

Since he came to the interview in the role of teacher, I wondered if he didn't do a bit of research beforehand, looking for a couple of corns to step on in order to provoke a reaction. I don't know if that's the case or not, but it seemed by the way he was laughing toward the end that he wasn't quite comfortable with the way things had gone.

Niall's spontaneous reaction to the higher sources comment was great too!

That was a highlight of the show for me as well :)

 

[Niall]

We wanted Patterson on the show because he's a walking encyclopedia on G. I was hoping for stories and perspectives both us and our listeners may not have heard before (of which there were some, I think). He wasn't known to us as a 'teacher of the Fourth Way', though we suspected as much. We certainly didn't want to 'show him up', 'correct' or 'teach' him. I had hoped he would sort of pick up on that and behave likewise...

Anyway, it was difficult subject matter given there were bound to be gaps between his and our understanding of G's teachings. Or maybe such gaps are not as wide as they seem, but the way in which they are conveyed is different? We would never say to people: 'forget history, it's all about you.' But somewhere in that there is a point to be made that you will only learn so much from books: the shocks of everyday life, and how you handle them, are key fuel you need to change you.

But the way in which Patterson was saying that could be misinterpreted. Left out is the part where G devoured all the information he could get his hands on. He travelled to the ends of the Earth to do so; today he'd use the Internet because it's energy-efficient. Let's say G found all the keys and became crystallized; can he now impart truths to students such that they would have no need of seeking information (paying attention to reality, past and present)?

Not so. As Joe said, it's a process, and study of the external world must proceed in parallel with cleaning the machine. New information is always coming into the system, and so the system must constantly be scanned and our understanding of it updated.

 

[wodasi]

Thank you for this interview ...
I am on the fence with Mr P
but you guys did a great job!