Show#94: Remembering Gurdjieff - Interview with William Patrick Patterson Part 2

dugdeep said:
Kudos to the hosts - you guys handled the whole thing with diplomacy.
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I second that. I think this radio show was an excellent lesson in self-remembering for us listeners. How do we deal with people in a courteous way and make sure that we are not raining on their parade? :) Maybe that is the most important thing I got ouf of it.
 
His book must be very good... though by ‘enlisting’ - Is he trying to sell the proverbial, rare bottle of valuable wine he found buried in a monastery...

I’m wondering if what he describes as being awake, is more like walking around in a dissociated state... dreaming one is awake, when one is just more asleep than usual in that moment...

A moment of blissful abstraction... maybe, but I don’t know

Anyway... It was a Great show as always... when I get the chance, to avail of broadband, I’m like a silent groupie, my eyebrows say thanks also for the workout... their a bit stiff today.

Yes.. Kudos to you guys
 
I was also taken aback by his comments implying that history doesn't matter. What?!? I had tried to call in to speak with him right before he went off the show but was a tad too late, I was going to thank him very much for researching the history recorded by Gurdjieff's students and publishing his own consolidated history book and leave it at that - because it is in fact a great book and obviously he put a load of work into it, and I am enjoying reading it - and also to see if he'd catch his contradiction. Turns out Kniall later made the same points on air that were going through my mind.

Odd that he says he's awake when by all appearances during the show he was not conscious of what he was saying as a whole. Or maybe he was playing a role or game. Dunno.

I wonder if he ever took time to peruse SoTT.net, and follow some links on the site where he'd have found the forums, cassiopaea.org, a long list of books, and more, and realized that Gurdjieff's teaching is big part of the nucleus. Dunno about that either.

If I remember right, many years back ( probably a decade ) he considered setting up a Yahoo group to teach online but it didn't pan out because he found it difficult to transpose teaching into online communication in that form, or didn't think it would be effective - the details are vague at this point. I have some fuzzy memory of signing up along with others from the original Cass group on Yahoo, and then nothing much happened except him bowing out. Or maybe that was someone else who tried that approach.
 
Yeah, the show was very enlightening! :P

I was a bit put off when he was talking about how other people don't really exist. He might have meant it in a mechanical life vs conscious life kind of way, but taken in the context of his larger views regarding knowledge of the world and how it is useless, it seems like he's living in a narcissistic bubble.

Seeing the mechanical nature of the world does provide shocks and I agree with the sentiment that he's quite buffered to the world around him and that his conscience is likely sound asleep - he didn't sound like he had much empathy for the world or others; I think Joe brought up G's teaching on how the study of the world must run parallel to the study of man, and it was interesting how he brought that back to the study of the self only (Wetiko!). It came across to me that he thinks he has overcome external influences by denying they exist. It's interesting to see first hand how insular and limited WPP's interpretation of the 4th way is versus what G actually taught. I'd say G must be rolling in his grave, but he saw it coming.

It makes me feel pretty indebted to the group here because I'm sure I'd never have seen much of anything on my own. That's not to say the group has the whole kit and kaboodle, but I think the ever present search for it has brought a lot of results for a lot of people.

I also agree that was very instructive in how Joe and Niall handled the interview. About half way in it seemed that WPP was determined to go off topic, and Joe would bring it back in a way that was both considerate to WPP and towards the audience too. But boy was he persistent!
 
dugdeep said:
I agree with what's been said here so far about the interview and I have to say that, over all, I was disappointed in Patterson with this second interview. I quite enjoyed the first one.

On the other hand, I think I cut him a little more slack than many listeners, particularly compared to a lot of what was said in the chat room during the show. I mean, we knew going in that Patterson doesn't have the whole banana (how could he?), but things really seemed to derail in the chat once differences in the two approaches surfaced, and suddenly anything that he said seemed to be nitpicked - like he couldn't say anything right at that point.

I think we have to remember that the acquiring of knowledge in the form of staying informed about the state of the world is something that the C's emphasize, not Gurdjieff, AFAIK (at least not explicitly), so I wonder if it's asking a bit much of Patterson to expect him to parallel the C's in his teaching.

That said, it could have been that I was triggered since Patterson's work is something that I hold in high regard. The interview definitely put it all into better perspective for me. We can take what is valuable from his books, but the man himself should not be canonized. Another sacred cow down :D

An unrelated point - I found it very interesting that Patterson believes that the teaching actually comes from "off-world", so to speak. Makes me wonder if he'd actually be open to the C's transmissions, if he were to come into contact with them, or if, on the contrary, his cup is already too full.

Kudos to the hosts - you guys handled the whole thing with diplomacy.
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I agree with what's been said above by the other users, Although I wasn't listening when the show was live so I can't comment about what was being said in the chatroom at the time, but I was having some of the same feelings as described above in bold, i.e comments on putin and disregard of history etc, the experience he recounted during the expo dissolving and such around 130 minute mark, i think I've experienced or I think maybe this relates to the sensation, sometimes on my lunch break I go to my car to rest I'm not really awake or asleep but sometimes I can see with my eyes closed, I don't really notice but it's there, it's only really when i do notice that I can "see" that it slips away like going through fog, I'm not sure if this is what he's getting at or not but when it does happen there's no internal dialogue or chatter just the sight FWIW I maybe way off
 
Everyone is a stepping stone, most become satisfied with a sweet spot they've found along the path, especially if they become comfortable with their environment..... as is said in that song from Oklahoma, ~ "He's gone about as fer as he can go..." ;D Seems like a nice ole chap, friendly come tea time. As I said last time, I'm surprised either he or someone in his staff/etc didn't research the show, its hosts, their affliations etc... from a security standpoint, that's... :shock: Reminds me of that story of the soldier on guard duty who falls asleep... :zzz: Is this the type of companions that G found himself surrounded by? Seems Caesar had the same problem, and many others.

His story of awakening seems classic and shortlived as usual, though some last longer such as G or David Hawkins, who had a similar situation in his youth, some 80+ years ago caught out in a blizzard, then the later near death situations etc..... later passing the fear of ego loss and then later realizing that it's very hard to work in life without it... when dealing with others anyway.

As for the recruitment drive, the hosts should have seen that coming and prepared their responses ahead of time, which as they said, could have expanded into further dialogue, which may or may not have been of much use for those continuing the journey.... nice chap to meet along the way though. :)
 
Good show. I read “Struggle of the Magicians” and thought it was pretty good. I agree with what others have said. So much “me me me, I’m all that matters”. What about awakening conscience? It was hard to tell how serious or joking he was at times. There is a thing that gurus and people in power do where they say and do things that may provoke a reaction in people, then later claim they were testing the people or providing some kind of lesson that was misunderstood. It seemed like there was some of that going on.

And all that about how great it is to be on Earth and how wonderful it is. I was waiting for him to say “well it’s great from the perspective of the work, there’s so much suffering, ignorance, and oppression, so many petty tyrants that opportunities for work on the self are all around us, they’re everywhere.”

Kudo’s to the hosts for handling it well!
 
I enjoyed the show very much even if I had to leave it before the end. Me too I was shocked when he said that History is not important, forget History. How come? History is the based of everything, to understand our past to understand this mess. But the show was interesting, amusing sometimes and he also had some good points when he talked about our mechanical and technological society versus the lost of our soul.

Thanks again for another radio show very, very interesting!
 
Seaniebawn said:
dugdeep said:
On the other hand, I think I cut him a little more slack than many listeners, particularly compared to a lot of what was said in the chat room during the show. I mean, we knew going in that Patterson doesn't have the whole banana (how could he?), but things really seemed to derail in the chat once differences in the two approaches surfaced, and suddenly anything that he said seemed to be nitpicked - like he couldn't say anything right at that point.
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I agree with what's been said above by the other users, Although I wasn't listening when the show was live so I can't comment about what was being said in the chatroom at the time, but I was having some of the same feelings as described above in bold,
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Well, the chatroom is there for people to express their thoughts/feelings on the show as it happens, so I wouldn't be down on that aspect of it. If you were feeling that way about the chatroom discussion you (Dug) could have said so at the time.

We suspected that Patterson didn't have the 'whole banana' but obviously couldn't know for sure (we still can't, for sure), but that became apparent to some extent during the show. I think if listeners wanted to criticize him for his flagrant dismissal of the importance of knowledge of history and his rather subjective spiritual experiences, they are entitled to do so, after all, Patterson pretends to be continuing on the work of Gurdjieff and, as far as many listeners were concerned, he was not doing a very good job of it even as G described it. So in that respect criticism of him was justified, IMO.
 
Thank you for the show. Loved it!

I was disappointed and actually surprised with his views and comments on "the work" compared to his knowledge about Gurdjieff's history.

I still want to read his latest book to get more perspective about the life of Gurdjieff. However if his views of "the work" reflect that of the general Gurdjieff school teachings; then I know, I won't learn more there.
 
I read all the comments before listening to the podcast so it was quite interesting to try and way observe where Patterson may be coming from.
One comment that stuck out (around 1h 20) was that in reference to the world was 'What can I do about it? Nothing'. So if he truely beleives that then it's pretty easy for him to dismiss paying attention to the world/history etc and why he puts so much effort/emphasis into the one way of doing things (awakening through a teacher only/awakening is the only thing you can do).

He reminded me a little of what we saw with Dolan, someone who was very good at gathering knowledge/data and relaying it - but who missed the crux of it. I'm sure he's doing a great job at what he does, and maybe he does wake some people up. But (and this is the parallel with Dolan) he seems stuck at one level and unwilling/unable to proceed to a bigger and bigger picture, so the ability to wake people up will be limited within that personal constraint osit.

Really interseting show again though and I look forward to hearing him again! The follow up call from one of his students was interesting so I wonder (along with the summary) how that will shape future interviews given they where listening?

*edit*
Also, I suppose there is the aspect that G. said the only way to awaken was with outside help/that of a teacher. That would conflict with the approach of the forum, of using the network as a whole and it's feedback as outside help.
 
I have yet to listen to the radio show and hope to do so by the end of this weekend. Reading the responses and impressions so far in this thread about WPP and what was said reminded me of this part of a past C's session, specifically the bolded parts. It would seem based on the discussion with the C's that WPP is missing a significant part of puzzle.

C's August 16th said:
[Q: (L) Okay, is there any final bit of advice, or any last thing to say before we shut down for the night?

A: Just work daily at becoming more aware on three levels
1. Body and immediate environment,
2. Wider world affairs,
3. Cosmos and spirit.

Q: (L) Shouldn't "spirit" go with "Body and immediate environment"?

A: No, it is via the first steps that one achieves cosmic consciousness.

Q: (L) I don't understand.

(Chu) You have to work on the body and environment, and then understand the wider world at first. And then you can develop cosmic consciousness and spirit.

(L) Oooh. So in other words, to achieve cosmic consciousness, i.e. true spiritual advancement, you have to expand your field of vision to be very wide?

A: Exactly. Those who suggest that you must look only within live in a singular bubble.
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Awesome show once again, I actually could not help but burst out laughing at some points in the "recruiting" stage. I think Joe and Kniall handled it really well and a great example of external considering, like the last show - a perfect opportunity for learning in that respect.

Me and Thorn we talking about this last night, like others have said: We were slightly shocked at how dogmatic and new-agey WPP sounded. Whether he was "playing a role" or not, I cannot know, however IMHO he resembled a follower of the "Law of Attraction" with a slightly egocentric flavour. I was also surprised at when he was asked "are you awake?" he replied with "Of course!". I have no idea or understanding of what awake-ness is, but he seemed a little too sure of himself and his own convictions... I may be mistaken, just my thoughts on it.
 
Great show guys. You handled WPP with tact and diplomacy. After reading his impressive book on G, I was disappointed at his superficial and limited knowledge of world affairs, which he apparently views only through the limited and warped lens of the msm. He doesn't seem to be able to connect what G said about how the wisdom of the East had to be wedded with the energy of the West-or else there would only be mutually assured destruction-with the present situation on the BBM.
As well, WPP seems to think he has reached a stage in his spiritual development that allows him to assume the role of teacher himself, because he believes he is one of the few who has awakened, thereby enabling him to don the mantle of teacher, within a traditional hierarchical framework of "me teacher, you students", rather than a collinear network of individuals who can provide input and feedback.
Anyhow, that's what I see, fwiw.
 
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