Six Percent?

[Denis]

Let's say that the genome sequence for psychopathy has been found, confirmed and identified. What should we do with those who are being identified as genetic psychopaths in that case? Would altering the environment influence their behavior too (I mean newborn psychopaths, not the global elite that already rules the world) so they could become more human? Or is that wishful thinking on my part?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Let's say that the genome sequence for psychopathy has been found, confirmed and identified. What should we do with those who are being identified as genetic psychopaths in that case? Would altering the environment influence their behavior too (I mean newborn psychopaths, not the global elite that already rules the world) so they could become more human? Or is that wishful thinking on my part?

Probably wishful thinking. If there are epigenetic factors, I think a world population eating a normal diet might lower the rate of psychopathy (speculation on my part). But for those born psychopathic, they seem to stay that way. A few psychologists have suggested facilities for keeping psychopaths segregated from the population. Traditional societies banished them from the tribe, so that approach seems to have a track record.

 

[Denis]

Thank you for your reply, AI.

If there are epigenetic factors, I think a world population eating a normal diet might lower the rate of psychopathy (speculation on my part). But for those born psychopathic, they seem to stay that way.

You're saying that even with the altered environment that would reflect normal human values and eating a normal diet they would still be like they are today? That's really scary. I was hoping that the positive feedback received from the environment would eventually rewrite their genome sequence and thus change their genetic make-up.

A few psychologists have suggested facilities for keeping psychopaths segregated from the population. Traditional societies banished them from the tribe, so that approach seems to have a track record.

Do you know the names of those psychologists who suggested that psychopaths should be kept in facilities and that way segregated from the population? I would be grateful if you could insert a link or two here so I can study their suggestions.
Can you tell me who were those traditional societies that were using this approach?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

If there are epigenetic factors, I think a world population eating a normal diet might lower the rate of psychopathy (speculation on my part). But for those born psychopathic, they seem to stay that way.

You're saying that even with the altered environment that would reflect normal human values and eating a normal diet they would still be like they are today? That's really scary. I was hoping that the positive feedback received from the environment would eventually rewrite their genome sequence and thus change their genetic make-up.

Well, who knows, it's always possible. But as far as I know there is no evidence for it. All attempts so far to 'cure' psychopathy only make them worse.

A few psychologists have suggested facilities for keeping psychopaths segregated from the population. Traditional societies banished them from the tribe, so that approach seems to have a track record.

Do you know the names of those psychologists who suggested that psychopaths should be kept in facilities and that way segregated from the population? I would be grateful if you could insert a link or two here so I can study their suggestions.
Can you tell me who were those traditional societies that were using this approach?

Lobaczewski is one. Another was featured on sott this year. I tried searching sott, but couldn't find it. It was a 5-10 minute long video. Maybe someone else remembers and can provide the link.

As for traditional societies, actually, the Inuit say they used to just secretly kill such individuals (http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,23803.msg277943.html#msg277943). I don't have any data for them having a policy of banishing psychopaths (after all, the term wasn't used as such and there isn't a lot of research about such things), but if you read about traditional societies, what they valued, and what was acceptable or not, you can make the connection (e.g. read Schumaker's In Search of Happiness and a book summarizing DeMeo's Saharasia research, Steve Taylor's The Fall). Basically, anyone displaying selfish behavior, ambition, antisociality was shunned and if it got bad, left to fend for themselves.

 

[ScarletBegonias]

If there are epigenetic factors, I think a world population eating a normal diet might lower the rate of psychopathy (speculation on my part). But for those born psychopathic, they seem to stay that way.

You're saying that even with the altered environment that would reflect normal human values and eating a normal diet they would still be like they are today? That's really scary. I was hoping that the positive feedback received from the environment would eventually rewrite their genome sequence and thus change their genetic make-up.

Well, who knows, it's always possible. But as far as I know there is no evidence for it. All attempts so far to 'cure' psychopathy only make them worse.

Hello Denis, I've been reading a lot on psychopathy lately and have compiled this bit of info:

Attempts have been made to treat psychopathic patients with multiple forms of psychotherapy and psychoactive medication in both in-patient and out-patient settings (Lee, 1999). Lithium has been effective in reducing aggression and moodiness (Sheard, 1971) and was also shown has having reduced the reoccurrence of major infractions among juvenile delinquents (Sheard, Martini and Bridges, 1976).

Lee, J. H., (1999) The Treatment of Psychopathic and Antisocial Personality Disorders: A Review, Clinical Decision Making, Support Unit Broadmoor Hospital, Berkshire: England.

Sherard, M. H. (1971) Effect of lithium on human aggression. Nature, 230, 113-114.

Sheard, M. H., Marini, J. L. & Bridges, C. I. (1976) The effect of lithium on unipolar aggressive behaviour in men. American Journal of Psychiatry, 133, 1409-1413.

I don't think dosing them up with lithium is the answer, but it has shown to reduce aggressive behavior in juveniles who exhibit characteristics of psychopathic personality disorder...

Do you know the names of those psychologists who suggested that psychopaths should be kept in facilities and that way segregated from the population? I would be grateful if you could insert a link or two here so I can study their suggestions.
Can you tell me who were those traditional societies that were using this approach?

There have been many "therapeutic communities" that have attempted to treat psychopaths over the years.

Quote from Responsibility and Psychopathy: interfacing law, psychiatry and philosophy, pg 158

Therapeutic communities

One of the most common treatments for psychopathy has been the therapeutic community (Harris and Rice, 2006). The typical focus of these therapies is on group processes, and therapeutically shaping the entire milieu. Some studies showed positive results (eg Copus and Whitely, 1976; Dolan, 1998) regarding the effectiveness of the therapeutic community at reducing violence and other antisocial behaviours in psychopathic patients. Methodological limitations including poor definitions of psychopathy and lack of control groups have made findings difficult to interpret (Losel, 1998). More recent analyses (eg Rice et al., 1992, described below) have overcome this major methodological shortcoming; but unfortunately the results have not been positive. As a result, many commentators now advocate against the use of the therapeutic community in treating these particularly high-risk offenders.

The first study to explicitly explore the impact of contemporarily defined psychopathy on treatment behaviour in a therapeutic community was by Ogloff and colleagues (1990). They evaluated a therapeutic community programme in a Canadian forensic hospital. Participants diagnosed as psychopaths (PLC>27) left treatment earlier, showed less motivation, and exhibited less improvement compared with patients with moderate or love PCL scores. In contrast, treatment appeared effective for non-psychopaths, in that they became less angry, hostile, anxious and depressed; and more socially assertive. Unfortunately, follow-up data are not available for this sample, and therefore any long-term differences between those who scored low versus high on the PCL, and stayed in treatment, are unknown.

More recently, Morrissey, Mooney, Hogue, Lindsay and Taylor (2007) examined the relationship between PCL-R scores and treatment progress in 72 intellectually disabled individuals in a high-security hospital. Higher PCL-R total, Facro 1, and Facet 1 and Facet 2 scores were all associated with negative progress in moves to lower security. Conversely, positive progress moves were inversely associated with lower PCL-R total score, and facets 2 and 4. With the exception of Facet 4, correlations remained significant after controlling for length of stay, seriousness of index offence, prior convictions, and recent aggressive behaviour. The distrubution of psychopathy scores was not reported, and it is unknown whether any of the participants were in fact psychopaths.

The study with the greatest impact on the potential failure of therapeutic communities for psychopathic individuals was conduced by Rice, Harris, and Cormier (1992). The authors conducted a retrospective review of case files from 176 previous admissions, and matched patients who had received treatment for at least 5 years to 'untreated' controls who were referred to the hospital for assessment and then sentenced to prison. The participants were matched for age at index offence, year and nature of offence, and history of violent and nonviolent crimes. Average PCL-R scores and prison/treatment terms were also identical between the two groups. Ten years after the offenders' conditional release, there was very little overall difference between the two groups despite the lengthy treatment programme that the treated group had received. However, when the groups were divided into 'psychopaths' (PCL-R.25) and 'non-psychopaths', the authors found a greater reduction in violent reoffending for the non-psychopaths as compared to untreated non-psychopaths (violent failure rates 22% and 39%, respectively), but a significant 'increase' in violent reofffending among the treated psychopaths when compared to untreated psychopaths (violent failure rate 77% and 55%, respectively)...

...it is now widely accepted that such treatment programmes are unlikely to prove beneficial for psychopathic offenders...

Approaching Infinity's statement that all the research to date shows that treatments have "made them worse" is accurate to the best of my knowledge, because there have been SO many attempts in SO many ways for SO long and they have ALL failed.

It's frustrating to know that these people cannot be treated, but I hope that the discovery of neuroplasticity might play some role in their treatment in the future, though I haven't a clue just how...

Also, I would like to note that psychopathic personality disorder is not diagnosed until a person reaches 18 years of age, though the characteristics may be apparent in their juvenile behavior. So I don't know if it's safe to say they are born this way, unless there has been research on babies. The belief behind this is that the brain is still developing, but to the best of my knowledge it doesn't stop developing until around 25 years of age. And even then our brains can still be rewired, (see: neuoplasticity).

Some people have suffered from brain damage, have lost their ability to empathize and have been reported as having taken on psychopathic characteristics. If the psychopaths can be treated through rewiring their brains then these people could be too! Then maybe the world could heal. But again, I haven't a clue if this would be possible...I just know that neuroplasticity exists and that means our brains can rewire themselves if enough effort is made...

 

[Denis]

Thank you AI and Scarlet for sharing those valuable information with me. I will read & study what you have suggested in order to gain more knowledge on this subject.

 

[whitecoast]

Let's say that the genome sequence for psychopathy has been found, confirmed and identified. What should we do with those who are being identified as genetic psychopaths in that case? Would altering the environment influence their behavior too (I mean newborn psychopaths, not the global elite that already rules the world) so they could become more human? Or is that wishful thinking on my part?

The more epigenetic factors there are in determining the development of psychopathy in individuals, the more environmental alterations would be able to mitigate those developments. It's unclear just how much environment plays a role in affecting the emergence of psychopathic traits, however.

That being said, a potential way to reduce psychopathy would be to apply certain gene therapies to fetuses and newborns identified as psychopath candidates, to normalize the neurological development of their brains from infancy through to adulthood. Depending on how the genes influence psychopathic traits, an individual may be able to be free of those theoretical therapies once the development of their brain has completed, or may need to be on them all their lives... but if we take for granted that the childhood and adolescence phases occurred more or less normally, they may be sufficiently socialized to repress emergent psychologically deviant tendencies that could develop later on.

Gene therapy is still a very new technology, and we don't know enough about the genetic etiology of psychopathy, and this wouldn't actually remove the harmful genes from the gene pool for the next generation, but with sufficient knowledge it may become a good first step in the future.
My two cents.

 

[Al Today]

Let's say that the genome sequence for psychopathy has been found, confirmed and identified. What should we do with those who are being identified as genetic psychopaths in that case? Would altering the environment influence their behavior too (I mean newborn psychopaths, not the global elite that already rules the world) so they could become more human? Or is that wishful thinking on my part?

I do not know if conscious empathy, "feeling" emotions can be taught. I tend to doubt it.

 

[ScarletBegonias]

Thank you AI and Scarlet for sharing those valuable information with me. I will read & study what you have suggested in order to gain more knowledge on this subject.

Here's a study that just came out that might interest you, Denis. :)

_http://www.andrealglenn.com/docs/Glenn_NBR_2011.pdf

 

[cubbex]

I don't think dosing them up with lithium is the answer, but it has shown to reduce aggressive behavior in juveniles who exhibit characteristics of psychopathic personality disorder...

When the levels of lithium are under the normal rate there's clinic depression, so of course is related to aggressiveness. I think some aggressive behavior is caused by the natural body changes at juvenile age. On males principally, the levels of testosterone increase and so, the aggressive behavior.

Approaching Infinity's statement that all the research to date shows that treatments have "made them worse" is accurate to the best of my knowledge, because there have been SO many attempts in SO many ways for SO long and they have ALL failed. (1)

It's frustrating to know that these people cannot be treated (2), but I hope that the discovery of neuroplasticity might play some role in their treatment in the future, though I haven't a clue just how...

Also, I would like to note that psychopathic personality disorder is not diagnosed until a person reaches 18 years of age, though the characteristics may be apparent in their juvenile behavior (3). So I don't know if it's safe to say they are born this way, unless there has been research on babies. The belief behind this is that the brain is still developing, but to the best of my knowledge it doesn't stop developing until around 25 years of age. And even then our brains can still be rewired, (see: neuoplasticity).

Some people have suffered from brain damage, have lost their ability to empathize and have been reported as having taken on psychopathic characteristics. (4) If the psychopaths can be treated through rewiring their brains then these people could be too! Then maybe the world could heal.

I like that idea. But we have to remember all that Laura has been telling us. Who needs alien when you have psychopaths?

1 - Read Laura's post: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,24851.msg288520.html#msg288520 and more or less answered my question on OP's thread, but I see something interesting. If the psychopathic personality has been spread on the other personality disorders and it doesn't belong only to the antisocial, things don't get any easier. And the difference between some non-psychopath with a personality disorder and a psychopath categorized into one of those personalities, is showed on your interesting quote, non-psychos heal and change their lives, and the psychos do not because they just to not have a disorder, it's something innate in them. Maybe we see the psychopathic personality as a disordered one because we obviously notice that is not normal and out of the usual scale of implacability, without the natural emotions on a human.

2 - It should not, I think it has to be the opposite now that we know that. If an Organic portal is just the first step on a 3 density level, then I thought about animal instinct. An animal can't reason like a human, because of its little brain and another factors. But what if that little animal gets a bigger encephalon? its instincts may evolve being now more complex than before, so that little animal has different cycles. An animal go and eats, sleeps, makes popo, gets a mate, has puppies, eats, sleeps, makes popo, and on and on and on. That explains what Laura says about the Organic Portals. Organic Portals are what we are working to stop being, a reaction machine that goes on a "human" cycle, and you know the process, they go as Laura says, just in circles. Maybe high levels of intellectuality makes them believe they are higher on a spiritual level and that can understand spiritual teachings like the fourth way.

Now we have take a look into the conditional-reflex experimented by Pavlov: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning
If a cat hunts a mouse and you punish the cat, the cat won't understand you, and maybe the cat would begin to fear you, because you can't make the cat love the little mouse or have respect for it, because the mouse it's just an object used to have fun. It's something innate in a cat to hunt something little, it is what it is. What maybe you can do is condition the cat's reflex -that could be cruel I think - so it stops hunting, but that doesn't mean the cat begins to love the mouse or to respect it, but afraid of eating it. The same with the psychopath, you can punish or sermonize him but as the cat, he won't understand you, morality it's not into a psychopath, it's not innate in that personality to have emotions and along them form and understand the morality concept, as a crocodile can't be treated to be a marmot. But what happens when you condition a human being like a psychopath?
See this interesting movie to get an idea: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066921/

3 - This can be explained in this way. The psychopath enjoys having power, as you should know, how the psychopath develops in future depends a lot on its background, but whichever the background, the psychopath enjoys power and will always go for it, and will always enjoy using others. If the characteristics are diagnosed at juvenile age, it can be because at that period the psychopath has the first opportunity to show his nature? Being a kid a psychopath has not much to choose from, it has no big muscles, no physical attraction, no money, no guns, no political support, just his/her parents. And maybe the child will do whatever he needs to get what he wants from his parents, that means, being good at school - like Ted Bundy - be nice with his brothers, and you tell me what else. If the child is being like that, I ask you, do you believe a parent need to put its child into observation? surely nope.

You are maybe basing your opinion on the relation you have found on the aggressive behavior on adolescents (that is supposedly psychopathic) and the antisocial personality. Remember that the personality has been spread on other personality disorders so aggressiveness is not completely related to psychopathy.

Look, I've found this video on facebook (this is what I refer as something innate the being): _http://youtu.be/bCCCF43Z9u4
And just found this book: _http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Adolescent-Psychopathy-Randall-Salekin/dp/1606236822/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1316764734&sr=8-7

4 - That's the problem I've read on some forums and pages about the CIE and DSM (V on May 2013). Anyone has disorder! It's difficult to know if someone is a psychopath, or just a person with emotional problems. One of the most beautiful things on my life is that I have known people you could say is a psychopath, but then you step back and observe again that person and notice they are not completely, and like a detective movie, the sinner and murderer is someone you never expected. To understand psychopathy one needs to observe people and study study study psychopathy, not only with books.

If we follow what has been taught here, psychopaths are the perfect destruction machine that works well in big scale and in power positions, to make them work efficiently, you create them in a way that can't be fixed to serve another purpose.

My 2 cents.

 

[PopHistorian]

Scarlett wrote: << I have been conditioned through formal education to think that information from authority figures who have appropriate credentials related to the subject(s) they discuss holds more weight than information from people who don't have the credentials. >>

That really drives me nuts. If I so much as mention, for instance, something about diet, someone is bound to snipe, "Are you a doctor?" (Most medical schools, by the way, don't even offer a single nutrition course, so doctors are not even the ones to know.) It's this attitude that no learning is valid or even possible unless it comes from an "authorized" source. So, to try to make a point lightly via humor, I reply, "Hey, what color would say these walls are?" If they say, "Eggshell," I'll reply, "Oh, are you an interior designer?" :)

 

[l_autre_d]

If we follow what has been taught here, psychopaths are the perfect destruction machine that works well in big scale and in power positions, to make them work efficiently, you create them in a way that can't be fixed to serve another purpose.

This reminded me of comments from these sessions and the possibility that the contemporary psychopath has repeatedly been refined and re-introduced into the timeline.

June 24, 2000

Your current physical form has been fine tuned on your present locator through advanced biogenetic engineering. It is an ongoing process.

January 21, 1995

A: Time travelers, therefore, "Time is ongoing."

. . .

A: No, not finished with answer. Do you understand the gravity of last response?

Q: (L) They are time travelers, they can move forward and backward in time, they can play games with our heads... (T) They can set up the past to create a future they want. (D) They can organize things so that they can create the energy that they need... (L) They can also make things look good, make them feel good, make them seem good, they can make you have an idea one minute, and then the next minute, create some sort of situation that confirms that idea...

A: When you asked how long, of course it is totally unlimited, is it not?

Q: (L) That's not good. If they were to move back through space time and alter an event in our past, would that alteration in the past instantaneously alter our present as well?

A: Has over and over and over.

Q: (D) So they do it over and over and over, constantly? (L) So, at each...

A: You just are not yet aware, and have no idea of the ramifications!!!

Q: (L) We're getting a little glimmer! Yeah, I do, a little! (T) The ramifications of being able to move in and out of time and manipulate it the way you want (Jan/Laura) And the ramifications of what they're doing to us; what they are doing to us and what they will do to us, over and over.

 

[ScarletBegonias]

Scarlett wrote: << I have been conditioned through formal education to think that information from authority figures who have appropriate credentials related to the subject(s) they discuss holds more weight than information from people who don't have the credentials. >>

That really drives me nuts. If I so much as mention, for instance, something about diet, someone is bound to snipe, "Are you a doctor?" (Most medical schools, by the way, don't even offer a single nutrition course, so doctors are not even the ones to know.) It's this attitude that no learning is valid or even possible unless it comes from an "authorized" source. So, to try to make a point lightly via humor, I reply, "Hey, what color would say these walls are?" If they say, "Eggshell," I'll reply, "Oh, are you an interior designer?" :)

I don't think it's bad to think experts might know more than me about the subject(s) they studied, but to blindly believe them without critical thinking and independent research is what runs us into problems.

Maybe clarifying that doctors don't take nutrition courses would help them to see that maybe you could have more knowledge about it than someone with a doctorate degree. Then you can tell them they should have asked if you if you're a nutritionist, lol..;) But I like the interior designer tactic too..;D

I will always remember that I've received exactly opposite diagnoses from two "specialists" reviewing the exact same blood test results. It made me really mad and I suffered from hypothyroidism (sleeeeepiness) unmedicated for a year because of it. Actually years, many years, because the other endocrinologist I had been seeing was a true disappointment to the profession....and this was just one of my health problems.

So, what you wrote about doctors and nutrition reminds me of what Dr Lobaczewski writes about near the end of Political Ponerology:

Forcing normal people to become psychologically ill, creating psychiatric institutions for them and abusing psychiatric practices are at the very nature of a pathocracy. "After all, the very area of knowledge and treatment must first be degraded to prevent it from jeopardizing the system itself by pronouncing a dramatic diagnosis, and must then be used as an expedient tool in the hands of the authorities," (Lobaczewski, 188).