Skills, Virtue and Happiness

[3DStudent]

[quote author=3D Student]
Virtue kind of sounds like discernment. Evaluating a situation and acting in the best possible way.

I think that is the right idea. Discernment builds on a foundation of knowledge. Also, appropriate mindfulness is needed to execute the action.

What would be appropriate mindfulness?
[/quote]

I wasn't sure of the definition of mindfulness, but pulled this psychological meaning from online:

[quote author= http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mindfulness]a technique in which one focuses one's full attention only on the present, experiencing thoughts, feelings, and sensations but not judging them[/quote]

So I think using appropriate mindfulness would be similar to G's self remembering. In doing the action it would be keeping in mind what you're doing and why. And not letting the centers be conflicting in the task and just accepting them as they are.

 

[obyvatel]

So I think using appropriate mindfulness would be similar to G's self remembering. In doing the action it would be keeping in mind what you're doing and why. And not letting the centers be conflicting in the task and just accepting them as they are.

Yes, I think so too. Appropriate mindfulness would involve intention, alertness and remembering.

Intention is the goal we have regarding the task. It can be specific - like fixing the computer. Or it may be more general - like helping a friend. This intention carries an emotional energy. Our attention is limited and it flickers. If the intention is strong, it helps to bring our attention back to the task at hand. It helps keep our-selves (many I's) "together" for the duration of the task at hand.

Alertness involves being sensitive to the subtleties of the situation at hand. If fixing a computer, what are the exact symptoms? If we are trying to help a friend, what is the friend looking for in this instance as expressed by his words and/or body language?

Remembering brings relevant knowledge to the forefront. What do we know about such a situation from past experience? What have we learned from books or other sources that can be useful and applied in this context? If it is a friend we are helping, what do we know about his history that is relevant?

These factors correlate with the skill scale. Stage 1 intention, alertness and knowledge would look and work different than a stage 3/4 intention, alertness and knowledge. Analyzing this would help in fostering development.

I wasn't sure of the definition of mindfulness, but pulled this psychological meaning from online:

[quote author= http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mindfulness]a technique in which one focuses one's full attention only on the present, experiencing thoughts, feelings, and sensations but not judging them

[/quote]

This definition of mindfulness seems incomplete for real life application in this context imo. If all the attention is only on the present, how does one bring to bear valuable knowledge gained from past experiences ? Skillful action depends on appropriate recall of such knowledge. It is more complicated than just experiencing the present situation, which to me sounds more like alertness factor.

 

[Archaea]

This definition of mindfulness seems incomplete for real life application in this context imo. If all the attention is only on the present, how does one bring to bear valuable knowledge gained from past experiences ? Skillful action depends on appropriate recall of such knowledge. It is more complicated than just experiencing the present situation, which to me sounds more like alertness factor.

Could there be a difference between recollection and recognition? So, a person's attention can be focused entirely on the moment, but they would still be able to recognize what they need to do. Also, if someone were engaged in recollection, could that still be a form of mindfulness? So, even though they're remembering past events, they're still placing their full attention onto the task in the present.

 

[obyvatel]

This definition of mindfulness seems incomplete for real life application in this context imo. If all the attention is only on the present, how does one bring to bear valuable knowledge gained from past experiences ? Skillful action depends on appropriate recall of such knowledge. It is more complicated than just experiencing the present situation, which to me sounds more like alertness factor.

Could there be a difference between recollection and recognition? So, a person's attention can be focused entirely on the moment, but they would still be able to recognize what they need to do. Also, if someone were engaged in recollection, could that still be a form of mindfulness? So, even though they're remembering past events, they're still placing their full attention onto the task in the present.

Both recognition and recollection involve memory access. Memory by definition is past experience. So recognition/recollection would necessarily mean accessing past experience in the present moment. This is applicable in the case of skilled action where, unless one is at stage 5 or "master", there is a deliberate effort to remember past experiences, evaluate choices and then execute an action.

Recognition and recollection refer to explicit or declarative memory which can be consciously recalled and explained with language. There is another type of memory called procedural memory which mostly operates below conscious awareness and does not require deliberate recall. Examples are riding a bicycle or swimming. Both these skills involve complex steps which need to be learned and executed many times through deliberate effort before the learning is internalized as procedural memory.

 

[David]

I wasn't sure of the definition of mindfulness, but pulled this psychological meaning from online:

[quote author= http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mindfulness]a technique in which one focuses one's full attention only on the present, experiencing thoughts, feelings, and sensations but not judging them

This definition of mindfulness seems incomplete for real life application in this context imo. If all the attention is only on the present, how does one bring to bear valuable knowledge gained from past experiences ? Skillful action depends on appropriate recall of such knowledge. It is more complicated than just experiencing the present situation, which to me sounds more like alertness factor.
[/quote]

I was assuming that being alert is part of being mindful, can one be mindful and not be alert...

Driving a rally car, one would be engaged in the moment and the moving centre is in automatic (learned skill)... and normal driving over long periods and one can end up in a kind of dissociated state, yet the moving centre is working away in automatic...

Walking down a road and somebody asks what is 2+2, automatically without lousing step, there an answer... a task that’s not in the mastered (learned) skill set... then we have to stop and concentrate on finding an answer... This is mentioned in the book ‘Thinking Fast and Slow.’ System1 and System 2.

Guys who are deemed geniuses, from neurological study, rarely use their frontal cortex, one could say they are masters, could they just be more asleep than a normal person, they seem to have super habits, maybe there are exceptions... i don’t know.

Maybe mindfulness could be defined as something that’s a process of growing awareness of reality that is, inside and out...

Just my thoughts... FWIW

 

[obyvatel]

Walking down a road and somebody asks what is 2+2, automatically without lousing step, there an answer... a task that’s not in the mastered (learned) skill set... then we have to stop and concentrate on finding an answer... This is mentioned in the book ‘Thinking Fast and Slow.’ System1 and System 2.

Guys who are deemed geniuses, from neurological study, rarely use their frontal cortex, one could say they are masters, could they just be more asleep than a normal person, they seem to have super habits, maybe there are exceptions... i don’t know.

The kind of mastering of skills we are talking about in this thread does not happen automatically. It only happens after dedicated practice and learning for many years. Only then the adaptive unconscious is programmed and the use of the frontal cortex may be reduced, making responses appear effortless and habitual.

IMO, the terms "asleep" and "awakened" have their uses from a high level abstracted view of reality but they can be confusing when getting down to the practical details - especially concerning how to act in a specific situation. There, what seems to be important is what is the intention behind the act, and how skillfully the act is performed. If someone is highly skilled and can act appropriately without breaking a sweat in a situation according to the aim he has, then it matters little whether we think he is asleep or awakened using whatever notion we have of these terms. OSIT

 

[David]

The kind of mastering of skills we are talking about in this thread does not happen automatically. It only happens after dedicated practice and learning for many years. Only then the adaptive unconscious is programmed and the use of the frontal cortex may be reduced, making responses appear effortless and habitual.

True enough...

Learning itself would seem a skill in itself, a pattern that establishes itself over time as a habit, and many things seem to get in the way of learning, limiting false beliefs... I think it was Henry Ford who said something along the lines of ‘if a man thinks he can do a thing or can’t, he’s right’ in one sense Mr Ford is correct, in another maybe not so correct... What forms the narrative that sets up our belief systems from the beginning... regarding learning, or virtue or well-being (happiness)

In that book ‘Redirect The surprising New Science of Psychological Change’ there are many instances of where we internalise a great many ideas that form a personal narrative, that may have no basis in reality, and yet becomes a self fulfilling prophesy, simply because we believe the lies we tell ourselves, in the sense of internalising inappropriate values and attitudes that hinder...

...Wilson argues that the key to transforming our lives lies simply in learning to redirect the stories we tell ourselves. His revolutionary approach reveals how reshaping our internal narrative can increases our personal well-being and transform our understanding of human behaviour...

 

[obyvatel]

Learning itself would seem a skill in itself, a pattern that establishes itself over time as a habit, and many things seem to get in the way of learning, limiting false beliefs...

Can you think of some specific examples of the limiting false beliefs that get in the way of learning?

 

[David]

Learning itself would seem a skill in itself, a pattern that establishes itself over time as a habit, and many things seem to get in the way of learning, limiting false beliefs...

Can you think of some specific examples of the limiting false beliefs that get in the way of learning?

I will take my little nephew as an example, some how he believed that if he started putting in effort in learning he would have to expend even more effort again the next day, and so on... perhaps a convenient narrative that enables hardly no effort to be expended on his part... in some respects he’s correct, because it dose take effort to acquire a beneficial habit, but once a certain level is established, it gets easier... and then its our own responsibility as to how much effort is expended to achieve a level of competency.

If I take my own experiences of school, at an early age, many limiting beliefs got established, I remember my mother asking me my tables, and she was impatient with me, because I didn’t know them, at that moment I became stressed because she was stressed, I switched off with the negative interject, there’s something wrong with me, I should know this, but don’t.... even at school another child dose well, and one compares oneself with ones peers, one comes up with the narrative, she’s smart, I must be dumb... and on and on. So such internalisations don’t bode well for learning.

 

[obyvatel]

I will take my little nephew as an example, some how he believed that if he started putting in effort in learning he would have to expend even more effort again the next day, and so on... perhaps a convenient narrative that enables hardly no effort to be expended on his part... in some respects he’s correct, because it dose take effort to acquire a beneficial habit, but once a certain level is established, it gets easier... and then its our own responsibility as to how much effort is expended to achieve a level of competency.

He figured out an important math concept, the divergent series. :) He just used it in an inappropriate context.

It is very interesting to ask children what they think and why they think so.

[quote author=Davida]
If I take my own experiences of school, at an early age, many limiting beliefs got established, I remember my mother asking me my tables, and she was impatient with me, because I didn’t know them, at that moment I became stressed because she was stressed, I switched off with the negative interject, there’s something wrong with me, I should know this, but don’t.... even at school another child dose well, and one compares oneself with ones peers, one comes up with the narrative, she’s smart, I must be dumb... and on and on. So such internalisations don’t bode well for learning.
[/quote]

Yes, this is tragic and common. The wrong message gets internalized: "I am not good enough", rather than "I did not work at it enough". Wilson had some tips for dealing with this in "Redirect", the book you mentioned in a previous post. Here is one relevant discussion.

Some other factors that seriously undermine skill building are more social in nature. The ubiquitous "quick fix" mentality and the search for constant stimulation and climactic moments are prime enemies of skill building.

The quick fix mentality demands short, simple and sweet solutions to complex problems. This mentality expects to find ready answers to complex questions which have bothered the best minds for centuries through a quick google search. It spends 5 minutes or less on such topics before moving on to the next item of interest. Distractibility is a corollary effect of this.

Many people believe they can only do something worthwhile if they are "excited" about it. Developing virtue-as-skill is a non-starter in such a scheme. After all how can one get "excited" about developing qualities like discipline, persistence, patience etc? One cannot. So a different question is answered. The answer is to become myopically result oriented. It is not the development of quality that matters but what fruits it promises to bring. So working hard as a student is to get a good job or bag a lucrative position in the social hierarchy. The value of learning as a process is neglected. Even in so-called spiritual pursuits, the allure to get people "excited" is either rewards in after-life or superpowers in this life, or at the very least, the novelty of miracles. This can take more obvious or increasingly subtle forms.

So when motivation is confused with excitement, and happiness is confused with pleasure, it is no wonder that developing virtues-as-skills is out of fashion.

 

[beetlemaniac]

Hi obyvatel,

Learning about the "skill model of virtue" helped me a whole lot in uncovering my unconscious automatic reactions when confronted with ethically ambiguous actions that I've made in my life. As you so rightly and clearly stated, following up on this created an understanding that mistakes happen, and we can always judge ourselves in ways that are less violent and harsh. I made a special effort to understand this topic by reciting verbally the posts here. I think this really helped in internalising the lesson. I also tried connecting it to life events, recapitulating the moments during my day at work.

I felt a great burden lifting as I grasped the implications of having this to calm and reassure the feelings of anxiety that I had in my social relations for years.

Thank you for the effort in getting the thread started obyvatel. It gave me a strong feeling of respect for what you do on this forum, and I would like to read / re-read your previous posts as well. By the way, is this 'skill model of virtue' something that you have been working on for a long time?

 

[obyvatel]

Hi Beetlemaniac,
I am glad you found this topic useful. I value and appreciate your acknowledgement as well.

A related topic discussed some time back is
Stoic Ethics, Rationality and the Feeling Function

[quote author=beetlemaniac]
By the way, is this 'skill model of virtue' something that you have been working on for a long time?
[/quote]

I have been interested in virtues for quite some time. I have also worked on developing skills in a few areas for quite some time. But I did not make a systematic connection between these two areas until a few months back.

From a certain perspective, we find what we are looking for even though we may not always be able to clearly articulate what we are looking for at the outset. But if we put in the effort to keep looking and learning on the way without becoming complacent, then things click together some day when the right piece of the puzzle comes up. I have also realized that unless we are primed to receive and make use of some information through prior efforts, even the most earth-shaking information would simply glide off ourselves like water on a duck's back.

So, if you find value in the topic, it is due to your own past efforts and desire in this general direction, even if you may not be able to consciously put your fingers on it. No sincere effort or desire to understand is wasted, even if results do not come immediately. And this is "food for the path", something that we can take along with ourselves on the journey, if we take up the general aim to continuously strive for skillful action in different aspects of our lives.

Taking this as the guiding principle of life is worthwhile. The goal of acting skillfully and virtuously is the common factor in the best practical ancient traditions that at least I have come across in both western and eastern civilizations. It is as relevant today as it was in other times. The true mettle of any teaching is tested in times of adversity, which is where and when exemplars of this path have shined. So we are in good company if we strive to walk this path, maybe lonely at times, but never alone.

 

[obyvatel]

I came across a translated quote that apparently comes straight from the originator Buddhism, Gautama Buddha

All skillfull mental qualities are rooted in heedfulness, converge in heedfulness, and heedfulness is reckoned the foremost among them.

Heedfulness is not that commonly used in English, as far as I know. There is "being careful" or "being mindful". Heedfulness seems to indicate a quality which is attentive to the presence of danger and is capable of warding it off. What is the danger? Reminded me of
"Always expect attack ...Know the modes of the same ... "

It does not mean one goes about life anxiously looking over one's shoulder all the time. Rather it is a quality of alertness which can be cultivated as a skill so that it becomes second nature.

Where does the danger come from? There are external sources of danger. There are also internal sources of danger. In the context of the Work, can we say it is "falling asleep", which is the opposite of "heedfulness"?

What is "heedfulness" in nuts and bolts physiological terms? Human physiology is not conducive towards maintaining a heightened state of activation of the sympathetic nervous system for a sustained period. So heedfulness cannot be a state of constant "fight or flight". I would speculate that the neural correlate of heedfulness is at least similar to the kind of relaxed alertness associated with the "play" system. Stephen Porges, author of "Polyvagal Theory", described the play state as a combination of sympathetic mobilization and the (myelinated vagal system influenced) social engagement (Polyvagal Theory pp278). This correlates with the overall experience of playing team sport or more clearly, in practicing martial arts. I will try to use the latter to explain my current understanding.

When training in martial arts, especially in sparring situations or simulated attack-defense "play", there is a need for relaxed alertness. The alertness is obvious - if I am not alert I get hit or thrown. The relaxed part has a two fold implication. First, the body moves better and performs techniques more efficiently if there is just the right amount of muscular tension in the right places. Being overly tensed up hinders movement and application of techniques. Secondly, there is a constant need to respond to the training partner, who is not "the enemy". This necessitates the engagement of prosocial circuits and systems in the brain and autonomous nervous system. The prosocial circuits can only be recruited in a relatively relaxed state. So for safety in training, it is imperative to be relaxed and alert, or should I say "heedful".

How does the above correlate with the Work and development of virtues? What does being heedful mean in those contexts? One aspect is intention. In martial arts, the intention is to learn the technique and apply it effectively in a safe way. That would be the skillful intention. A non-skillful intention in training would be to learn the technique and apply it in a dominating way to show "who is the boss". And it is easy to see when that happens. So to practice heedfulness, it is important to have a clear intention at the outset. Before responding to a situation, we need to clarify our intention. What do we wish to achieve in the situation? Is the intention skillful? Whether an intention is skillful can be estimated through practical and moral considerations. The intention should not be to hurt or humiliate the other person(s) or one's own self. Sounds obvious enough. This is because conscious intentions of normal people are usually not harmful to others. But in many cases, it is the unconscious that calls the shots and before we realize it, the action happens . To prevent this, there is a need for a deliberate remembering of our intention.

[quote author=Victor Frankl]
Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.
[/quote]

This space is created from the consciously formulated intention per my understanding.

After intention, there is action. The action can be more or less skillful depending on our knowledge and experience. After action, there has to be a reflection on the action. How skillful was it? Did it achieve its goal? Was there unforeseen consequences?

The reflection step is crucial for learning. It feeds the knowledge gained from previous experiences into the intention and action steps for next time. Heedfulness includes the remembering of lessons learned from past experiences.

Thoughts?

 

[Neil]

To me, the fundamental idea behind this thread closely resembles Mouravieff's description of the Staircase. The Way is a program to build virtue in students of esotericism by developing certain attributes through exposing them to trials that must be completed in a certain way. Faithfulness, hopefulness, and courageousness, are all attributes that can be regarded as skills of their own and developed by gaining proficiency in certain other skills like external consideration, self-remembering, discernment, giving all things their due, etc. When one becomes able to understand love in its esoteric context, skills, virtue, and happiness all begin to merge into one. Perhaps when one is able to share and transmit the love of the creator, one has gained complete mastery of all these skills. I don't really have any nuanced commentary and analysis to expand on this subject, it's just my 2 cents

 

[obyvatel]

Hi Neil,
Interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing.

To me, the fundamental idea behind this thread closely resembles Mouravieff's description of the Staircase. The Way is a program to build virtue in students of esotericism by developing certain attributes through exposing them to trials that must be completed in a certain way.

A practical program has a progressive structure with instruction, practice and feedback. We can speculate that such a program may have existed in the past - or even exist today - but it may not be accessible to most people at the level of reality that they inhabit. We can speculate that one's life pushes one into certain directions but such an agency (higher self for example) , if it exists, may not accessible at the level of reality that people inhabit. And maybe that is what creates a gap between "esotericism" and life. This gap is often filled with wishful thinking of different levels of sophistication.

[quote author=Neil]
Faithfulness, hopefulness, and courageousness, are all attributes that can be regarded as skills of their own and developed by gaining proficiency in certain other skills like external consideration, self-remembering, discernment, giving all things their due, etc.
[/quote]

I would treat courage differently from faith and hope, but generally would agree with the above.

[quote author=Neil]
When one becomes able to understand love in its esoteric context, skills, virtue, and happiness all begin to merge into one. Perhaps when one is able to share and transmit the love of the creator, one has gained complete mastery of all these skills.
[/quote]

Perhaps. A lot of esoteric literature seems to indicate in this direction. I think there is an inherent danger here that we may need to be heedful about.

When multiple concepts are subsumed into one concept, there is a certain loss of discrimination. Discrimination is needed for developing skills. If "love is all that is needed and is everything and includes everything" then the concept of love becomes mostly unusable from a practical developmental standpoint. It is good to quote and share and like - but does it help from a perspective of learning? I do not think so based on my own experience of struggling with such concepts and observing others do the same. If we try to think in terms of developing skill in any practical field, this becomes clear. In science, concepts and ideas have to be taken apart, studied and then put back together. In arts, one needs to learn how to handle a brush, colors, media before all of them can come together in a painting.

So coming back to the fundamental idea behind the thread, I would say that it is a small effort to help bridge the gap between esotericism and life.