Some thoughts on Alice Miller/psychopathy

anart

The Living Force
Sylvieshene said:
Well maybe you are right, I still think they suffer and make others suffer too, every predator was once a victim, but if you are right at least I feel good about myself if I am projecting good qualities in myself into these psychopaths/sociopaths. :-)
No, they do not suffer or they are not psychopaths. A person can be psychopathic and suffer - but not a psychopath, and there is a difference. Why would you feel good about projecting qualities onto people that do not exist? All that does is make you perfect prey and keep you believing lies - both of which are terrible, terrible things.
 

Sylvieshene

A Disturbance in the Force
I wish we could edit our comments here. I just like to change the word “good” above to “emotional”
“I feel good about myself if I am projecting emotional qualities in myself into these psychopaths/sociopaths. :-)
 

Miguel_Sanchez

The Living Force
Sylvieshene said:
I wish we could edit our comments here. I just like to change the word “good” above to “emotional”
“I feel good about myself if I am projecting emotional qualities in myself into these psychopaths/sociopaths. :-)
I don't quite get your thinking, but it could relate to insufficient understanding of psychopathy. You seem to think that psychopaths are created by some type of trauma or suffering as opposed to being born that way. While there is a possibility that some people can take on psychopathic tendencies as a result of trauma, that is not the same as a full blown psychopath.

Projecting your emotions where they don't belong might make you feel good, but so does day dreaming and eating ice cream. That doesn't mean it is healthy or good for you. Ascribing such emotionality onto a psychopath is akin to projecting your feelings onto a car, OSIT.

Don't worry about wishing you could edit your posts. Our posts become an excellent way of tracking our progress over time. Although I might initially want to cringe when I see my earlier posts, I realize they provide me affirmation of my progress in objective, rational thought. Also, our posts provide us with great lessons about ourselves. When I first joined and wanted to change a post, it was usually because I didn't like how I was presenting myself. Once I realized I was really trying to create a specific presentation of myself, I recognized that what I was really trying to do was to put forward a character and not my genuine self, warts and all.

Gonzo
 

Jeremy F Kreuz

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
I do agree they have no cure, because they are incapable of feelings and they might know to an extent of what they are doing, but ultimate they are lost in a maze with no way out endless reenacting their childhood drama and they will have a sad end taking many victims with them and leaving many behind carrying their psychological virus to the future generations to continue their deceiving schemes for eternity.
The work of AM is valuable for people suffering from neurosis, not for those having a disturbed character. I would highly recommend reading the book Disturbed Characters by George Simon (there is also a thread on this book in the forum). This book explains very clearly the difference between neurosis and character disturbance and why the same thinking and attitude cannot be taken when dealing with people suffering of neurosis and people having character disturbance. AM has given valuable information for dealing with neurosis. She made the mistake (as many others) in trying to apply that knowledge to disturbed characters. And it seems you are doing the same. It just don't work like this. In the quote above you seem to grasp the fundamentals of psychopathy but then explain/excuse them away by applying explanations that can only be applied to people with neurosis, in this case ´their childhood trauma´. A psychopath's only childhood trauma is that they had to become better in their predatory skills. This might have caused them to feel temporarily hungry, but nothing more. As such they are definitely not reenacting ´feeling hungry´, but avoid it by predating, finding ever more victims to satiate themselves.
 

Sylvieshene

A Disturbance in the Force
From my experience with psychopaths they all had trauma in childhood and even before birth while still in the womb and some also had very traumatic childbirth, but if they had parents capable of true love they would had been able to heal the trauma of a difficult birth. Even dough I have compassion for the child they once were, I don’t have compassion for the adults they have become, because as adult we all have a choice to open our eyes to see and feel. Alice Miller called Hitler a monster and she too could feel compassion for the child he once was, but had not compassion for the monster he became. The reason psychopaths can sometimes be hard to spot is because they have memorized good knowledge, but without genuinely experiencing it at the personal level, they are like robots, they become perfect machines going into the world deceiving others, they are telling lies coated with disconnected truths to allure people into their trap they can use and explore, the only reason they want to educate themselves and get knowledge is not to help themselves and others, but to use what they have learn to manipulate others to help them in their schemes to fool everyone and get over others without any remorse, they don’t care who they destroy in the process, as long they get what they want, it’s all about getting what they want. Barbara Rogers was very good at her game and that is why she was able to fool Alice Miller, but in the moment she was caught and Alice Miller confronted her, she attacked like all psychopaths do and take with them those that are not able to see through them and believe their lies.
You saying that I am projecting my emotional qualities into the psychopaths, maybe is true to some extent, we all can project ourselves unconsciously into others, but we could say that maybe you are also projecting your denied emotional qualities into the psychopaths, because people incapable of genuine feelings would make them perfect target for people that can’t bear to feel their own painful excruciating repressed feelings of the child they once were, it goes both ways, nobody is perfect, we all were once defenseless children at the mercy of ignorant adults and we all like or not been effected by our childhood to an extent, some more than others.
 

Nienna

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Sylvieshene said:
From my experience with psychopaths they all had trauma in childhood and even before birth while still in the womb and some also had very traumatic childbirth, but if they had parents capable of true love they would had been able to heal the trauma of a difficult birth. Even dough I have compassion for the child they once were, I don’t have compassion for the adults they have become, because as adult we all have a choice to open our eyes to see and feel. Alice Miller called Hitler a monster and she too could feel compassion for the child he once was, but had not compassion for the monster he became. The reason psychopaths can sometimes be hard to spot is because they have memorized good knowledge, but without genuinely experiencing it at the personal level, they are like robots, they become perfect machines going into the world deceiving others, they are telling lies coated with disconnected truths to allure people into their trap they can use and explore, the only reason they want to educate themselves and get knowledge is not to help themselves and others, but to use what they have learn to manipulate others to help them in their schemes to fool everyone and get over others without any remorse, they don’t care who they destroy in the process, as long they get what they want, it’s all about getting what they want. Barbara Rogers was very good at her game and that is why she was able to fool Alice Miller, but in the moment she was caught and Alice Miller confronted her, she attacked like all psychopaths do and take with them those that are not able to see through them and believe their lies.
You saying that I am projecting my emotional qualities into the psychopaths, maybe is true to some extent, we all can project ourselves unconsciously into others, but we could say that maybe you are also projecting your denied emotional qualities into the psychopaths, because people incapable of genuine feelings would make them perfect target for people that can’t bear to feel their own painful excruciating repressed feelings of the child they once were, it goes both ways, nobody is perfect, we all were once defenseless children at the mercy of ignorant adults and we all like or not been effected by our childhood to an extent, some more than others.
What have you read about psychopathy? Have you read any of the books by psychologists that have worked with them and done research on them? If not, all you say is just your subjective opinion. You seem to want to put a "be nice" program to work when discussing them. With true psychopaths, there is no being nice to them or you will be their lunch.

If you haven't already read these books, it would help you to understand psychopathy better, which is something that is very important to every person on this planet.

The Sociopath Next Door - Martha Stout
Women Who Love Psychopaths - Sandra Brown
Snakes in Suits - Robert Hare and Paul Babiak
Without Conscience - Robert Hare
The Mask of Sanity - Hervey Cleckley
Political Ponerology - Andrzej Lobaczewski

And, it has been shown that essential psychopaths are born that way. No trauma necessary. It's in their genes.

Once you have read these books, then will be the time to discuss psychopathy in a knowledgeable manner.
 

Sylvieshene

A Disturbance in the Force
“With true psychopaths, there is no being nice to them or you will be their lunch.”
I agree with you that with a true psychopath there is no being nice to them that we will be lunch for them and the only way to protect ourselves is to be vigilant and not let them in to our lives and get away from them as fast as we can. We only seem to disagree how they came to be psychopaths; you believe it’s genetic, an evil gene, but there is a good reason why these people became psychopaths and that is because they were born into unconscious parents that created them with their ignorance.
 

EmeraldHope

The Living Force
Sylvieshene said:
“With true psychopaths, there is no being nice to them or you will be their lunch.”

I agree with you that with a true psychopath there is no being nice to them that we will be lunch for them and the only way to protect ourselves is to be vigilant and not let them in to our lives and get away from them as fast as we can. We only seem to disagree how they came to be psychopaths; you believe it’s genetic, an evil gene, but there is a good reason why these people became psychopaths and that is because they were born into unconscious parents that created them with their ignorance.

No, that is not the case. Please read the suggested books and do some research. Essential psychopathy is genetic. No one here just randomly believes anything in regards to psychopathy. We are saying this to you because there is research and documentation to back this up.
 

Nienna

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Sylvieshene said:
“With true psychopaths, there is no being nice to them or you will be their lunch.”
I agree with you that with a true psychopath there is no being nice to them that we will be lunch for them and the only way to protect ourselves is to be vigilant and not let them in to our lives and get away from them as fast as we can. We only seem to disagree how they came to be psychopaths; you believe it’s genetic, an evil gene, but there is a good reason why these people became psychopaths and that is because they were born into unconscious parents that created them with their ignorance.
No, I do not "believe" this to be so, it is a fact.
 

Sylvieshene

A Disturbance in the Force
I apologize for so many mistakes in my post before last, but the word “explore” was supposed to be “exploit” “so they can use and exploit them”
I agree with Alice Miller that this character disorders are not genetic, but are product of parental and society ignorance. “AM: Feeble-mindedness seems to become more and more fashionable at the NYT: You can write to Barbara Oakley, the journalist of the prestigious NYT and ASK her why "nasty people", people with "bad genes" were so frequently born in Germany 30 years before the Holocaust to become Hitler's willing executers and why this kind of sadistic people is not to be found in Germany of today. You will probably not get any answer because she will not understand you and she doesn't care about the answer. The right answer is: The Germans' brutal upbringing 30 years before the nazi regime, and not the "bad genes", produced the millions of adults who adored Hitler and helped him to create a hell on earth. Their bodies knew the hell from their childhood on but this knowledge was deeply repressed by their minds. They have only learned submission to cruel orders and as adults took revenge using entire nations. This has nothing to do with the fairy-tales of NYT "scientific" genes but much to do with the laws of life. We could see recently in Virginia how easily pent-up rage can destroy life. Unfortunately, nobody seems to ask the most important questions: Where does the hatred come from and WHY?”
_http://www.alice-miller.com/readersmail_en.php?lang=en&nid=1191&grp=0407
_http://www.alice-miller.com/search.php?cx=010371942947340035641%3Apviiqfanxwq&cof=FORID%3A11&q=evil+in+the+genes&tzav=en&sa=search
 

anart

The Living Force
Sylvieshene said:
I apologize for so many mistakes in my post before last, but the word “explore” was supposed to be “exploit” “so they can use and exploit them”
I agree with Alice Miller that this character disorders are not genetic, but are product of parental and society ignorance.
Hi Sylvieshene, you may agree with Alice Miller, but the point here is that Miller's viewpoint is not objectively correct. It is not supported by science. Here I am specifically speaking about essential psychopaths. There is a lot of science to support the fact that they are born that way - it is a hard wired genetic condition - it is not due to experiential factors. If you will read the current scientific research on this, it is very, very clear.

Miller is confusing the topic due to ignorance, which is a very common thing, but please understand that her viewpoint does not mesh with the latest research on the topic and as long as you continue to support her viewpoint, you will be corrected on this forum.

If you are unwilling to actually research this and get up to speed on the scientific data, then we ask that you please stop posting erroneous theories on this forum, since this is a research forum and it's very important that we keep the noise to signal ratio very small.
 

paralleloscope

The Living Force
Sylvieshene said:
You can write to Barbara Oakley, the journalist of the prestigious NYT and ASK her why "nasty people", people with "bad genes" were so frequently born in Germany 30 years before the Holocaust to become Hitler's willing executers and why this kind of sadistic people is not to be found in Germany of today. You will probably not get any answer because she will not understand you and she doesn't care about the answer. The right answer is: The Germans' brutal upbringing 30 years before the nazi regime, and not the "bad genes", produced the millions of adults who adored Hitler and helped him to create a hell on earth. Their bodies knew the hell from their childhood on but this knowledge was deeply repressed by their minds. They have only learned submission to cruel orders and as adults took revenge using entire nations. This has nothing to do with the fairy-tales of NYT "scientific" genes but much to do with the laws of life.
Hi Sylvieshene, you may want to do yourself a favour and read 'Political ponorology' by Andrew Lobaczewski. It describes and dissects scientifically what you are calling 'The laws of life' in regards to pathology, and will reveal to you just how it's systems and movements are encultured by true psychopaths. If you do a search on the forum you'll find numerous discussions and quotations on this.
 

Mariama

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Hi Sylvieshene,

For years I believed that a bad childhood was the cause of almost every ailment in the whole wide world, including physical diseases. I never thought about our toxic world or my amalgam fillings which poisoned my children in utero, never thought about people that are just born bad, so to speak. For a long time I was convinced that all parents who produced bad seeds were monstrous themselves.

Alice Miller was very invested in that idea as well. And she paid a heavy price because of it. Barbara Rogers is a very talented and seductive psychopath. She may have had a terrible childhood, she may not have. Maybe she made up her stories of childhood abuse, we do not know. I do know that what she told others about her beloved nanny appeared to be contradictory. So, she probably lied about the whole thing. OSIT.

I am very grateful to Alice Miller and she was aware of that. But I had to use her as a stepping-stone. She was just one of the first writers that helped me ahead. But had I stayed in her realm so to speak I would never have advanced.

Martha Stout's book is a great book to begin with. One day, this information could save your life or the lives of your loved ones.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
There are different types of psychopathologies: 1) genetic, 2) become that way due to psychological brutalization, 3) suffer some illness which effects changes in substratum 4) suffer some mechanical injury.

All of these are covered in Political Ponerology.

The "garden variety" Authoritarian Follower can be inferred from PP, but it is not discussed explicitly.

Knowing about these various types and how they interact with one another is crucial. Lobaczewski discusses the fact that the Germans were brutalized in their conceptual world-view, but this was done by psychopaths of various sorts including what is called the "characteropath" - or the psychopath who is not genetic, but rather "grows" that way due to abuse, injury, illness.
 

Aiming

The Living Force
On a slightly different note: Alice Miller could not break the loop of intergenerational abuse in her own family. Her son Martin Miller published a book titled The True 'Drama of the Gifted Child.' The Tragedy of Alice Miller — How Repressed War Traumas Impact Families (only available in German), where he describes his mother's life, analyzes it and via describing his childhood and traumas points out her inability to apply what she wrote about in her own books. She was from a Jewish family and during the war the Nazis deported her and her family to the Piotorkow ghetto, from which however she was able to escape and to smuggle out her mother and her sister, while her father died there.

Here's an article about it: The drama of the gifted child whose mother was Alice Miller: The loop of intergenerational abuse

And here a book review by the translator of above article.
 
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