Soul
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94-12-27 :)RflctnOfU said:
Excellent topic, Deckard. Thanks for putting it!! Had these questions "in the far case" of the mind, maybe someone grasped it already. I see an apparent contradiction between 2 C's statements about souls. First, they say that "Number of souls is finite" (non clear if finite constant or finite variable numbers, from (T) quote is more likely that number of souls is constant. If so, did QFG ever asked how many exactly? Should be like 33 in degree 33...:S.
And then, regarding Jesus, C's say that his soul is replicating ad infinitum. That contradicts "finitness". Maybe clue here is that replicates not soul, but soul pattern. I don't get what is soul pattern and what difference is between "soul" and "soul pattern"?
And, secondly, first they respond "No" to Laura's question whether Jesus soul replicates itself; and then tell, that "it is a replication". Again to my 3d mind it's a contradiction.
Devil is in the details, but where exactly?
And then, regarding Jesus, C's say that his soul is replicating ad infinitum. That contradicts "finitness". Maybe clue here is that replicates not soul, but soul pattern. I don't get what is soul pattern and what difference is between "soul" and "soul pattern"?
And, secondly, first they respond "No" to Laura's question whether Jesus soul replicates itself; and then tell, that "it is a replication". Again to my 3d mind it's a contradiction.
Devil is in the details, but where exactly?
quote No 1 said:
One more thing about souls I am in the maze:quote No 2(the Wave said:
and this:Laura said:
Or our souls did evolved from 2nd density, or they came directly from 7th, or the first or the second, osit.
Indeed, excellent topic.
I am a bit confused too. As far as i understand that, i thought that the adamique race was the start to have a soul. The preadamique or the organic portals do no have a individual soul but rather a collective soul.
Moreover, It seems according to Mouriavieff, as someone said in the french group futur_quantique, that the preadamique race do not reincarnate; that their experience goes directly into the collective pool and serve the collectivity. Well i do not understand it. How come a second density or a organic portal can graduate to the third density or to a adamique being if he gives everything to the group and disappears as an individual?
My understanding is that from the first density to the second or from the second to the third and from the op to the adamique race, the entity must exist in a way that is an individual entity in order to be able to continue is evolution and have the chance to graduate from one density to another.
Maybe i am way out of the real understanding.
I am a bit confused too. As far as i understand that, i thought that the adamique race was the start to have a soul. The preadamique or the organic portals do no have a individual soul but rather a collective soul.
Moreover, It seems according to Mouriavieff, as someone said in the french group futur_quantique, that the preadamique race do not reincarnate; that their experience goes directly into the collective pool and serve the collectivity. Well i do not understand it. How come a second density or a organic portal can graduate to the third density or to a adamique being if he gives everything to the group and disappears as an individual?
My understanding is that from the first density to the second or from the second to the third and from the op to the adamique race, the entity must exist in a way that is an individual entity in order to be able to continue is evolution and have the chance to graduate from one density to another.
Maybe i am way out of the real understanding.
Maybe OPs are the remnants of a previous soul smashing event. It was said that this event reduces souls to prime matter and it takes millions and possibly billions of years to gather consciousness. They may be going through the growth stage from ascending from this previous event. From the pool they maybe gain a crystallised soul after some "time".
obyvatel
The Living Force
I have found the excerpts on the soul in Jacob Needleman's "Lost Christianity" quite helpful. It is a little long but worth it imo.
[quote author=Lost Christianity]
(1) The soul is the intermediate principle in human nature, occupying the place between the Spirit and the body. The former term, “Spirit,” Father Sylvan defines variously as “the movement toward Godhead,” “the Uncreated,” “Absolute Origin,” and “Eternal Mind.” The term “body” is also defined in a variety of ways, including but not limited to the physical body. Father Sylvan considers “thoughts” as part of the physical body.
(2) The power or function of the soul is attention; the development of attention is therefore approximately equivalent to the development and growth of the soul. But the soul also has several components, each with its own power of attention. All components must participate in the perfection of the soul. The principal power of the soul, which defines its real nature, is a gathered attention that is directed simultaneously toward the Spirit and the body. This is “attention of the heart.” And this is the principal mediating, harmonizing power of the soul.
(3) The mediating attention of the heart is spontaneously activated in man in the state of profound self-questioning, a state that is almost always inaccurately recognized and wrongly valued in everyday experience. “God can only speak to the soul,” Father Sylvan writes, “and only when the soul exists.” He goes on: “But the soul of man only exists for a moment, as long as it takes for the Question to appear and then to disappear, as, for example, in the encounter with death between grief and sadness, between shock and fear; or in the encounter with supersatisfaction, between emptiness and boredom; or in the encounter with life’s revolutionary disappointments, before free fall turns to self-pity.”
(4) The practice of Christianity begins with the repeated efforts to recognize what takes place in oneself in the state of self-questioning. This implies a struggle against attempts to cover over the Question by means of explanations, emotional reactions or physical action. Father Sylvan collectively calls these three impulses “the first dispersal of the soul.” Through this term, he points to the fact that the force of attention is wasted and degraded through absorption by one or another part of the psychophysical organism.
“Certain Oriental teachers,” he writes, “warn us against giving too much attention to the things of the world. Certain of our Christian teachers also say this. But here error creeps in. One may give all one’s outer attention to the world without harming oneself in any way. To tell the truth, we are called by the Creator to spend this kind of attention. The struggle of the Christian is to contain the energy of the Question within oneself, not allowing this deeper attention to be mixed with the attention of the psychophysical organism.” This “first dispersal of the soul” is termed elsewhere by Father Sylvan “attachment,” and in more traditional Christian language, “worldly cares.”
(5) Through containing this special psychic energy that is activated in the experience of deep self-questioning, “the soul comes into existence and begins to gather itself into an independent entity.” According to Father Sylvan, this process can never be carried out without proper guidance and is, in the strictest sense, the task of “authentic esoteric Christianity,” which he characterizes as “the esotericism of energy, rather than words or ideas.”
................
(6) Finally, a truly Christian life is possible only for an individual in whom the process of “soul-making” has gone past a certain point. Such individuals are rare, but only they are capable of altruism in the strictly spiritual sense. In Father Sylvan’s language, “the soul begins to radiate.” “The task of self-purification becomes fused with the act of helping my neighbor.” “The first aim of human life is to pass from dispersal to radiation.”
..................................................
In short, the soul is not a fixed entity. According to Father Sylvan, it is a movement that begins whenever man experiences the psychological pain of contradiction. It is an actual energy, but one that is only at some beginning stage of its development and action. Every day, every more or less average human individual experiences the appearance of this energy in its most embryonic stage. Whenever there is pain or contradiction, this energy of the soul is released or “activated.” But almost always, almost without any exceptions whatsoever, this new energy is immediately dispersed and comes to nothing. A hundred, a thousand times a day, perhaps, “the soul is aborted.” An individual is completely unaware of this loss and remains so throughout his whole life. Without the necessary help and guidance, he never reaches the orientation necessary for enabling these everyday experiences to accumulate.
For Father Sylvan, most of our ordinary emotional reactions—both pleasant and unpleasant—only serve to cover over these experiences of contradiction. And the behavior and actions that result from these emotions thicken the covering and lead to further emotional reactions. Man becomes trapped in “the automatism of non-redemptive experience,” a phrase that Father Sylvan juxtaposes with St. Paul’s “body of death.”
“Lost Christianity” is the lost or forgotten power of man to extract the pure energy of the soul from the experiences that make up his life. This possibility is distinct only in the most vivid or painful moments of our ordinary lives, but it can be discovered in all experiences if one knows how to seek it. Certain powerful experiences—such as the encounter with death or deep disappointment—are accompanied by the sensation of presence; an attention appears that is simultaneously open to a higher, freer mind (“Spirit”) and to all the perceptions, sensations and emotions that constitute our ordinary self. One feels both separate and engaged in a new and entirely extraordinary way. One experiences “I Am.” This is the soul (in inception).
[/quote]
The above I think refers to Adamic humanity who have the potential to develop an individualized soul. The pre-adamics on the other hand are said to have a non-individualized or group soul. The above quotes are in line with Gurdjieff's view that one needs effort to grow a (individualized) soul.
fwiw
[quote author=Lost Christianity]
(1) The soul is the intermediate principle in human nature, occupying the place between the Spirit and the body. The former term, “Spirit,” Father Sylvan defines variously as “the movement toward Godhead,” “the Uncreated,” “Absolute Origin,” and “Eternal Mind.” The term “body” is also defined in a variety of ways, including but not limited to the physical body. Father Sylvan considers “thoughts” as part of the physical body.
(2) The power or function of the soul is attention; the development of attention is therefore approximately equivalent to the development and growth of the soul. But the soul also has several components, each with its own power of attention. All components must participate in the perfection of the soul. The principal power of the soul, which defines its real nature, is a gathered attention that is directed simultaneously toward the Spirit and the body. This is “attention of the heart.” And this is the principal mediating, harmonizing power of the soul.
(3) The mediating attention of the heart is spontaneously activated in man in the state of profound self-questioning, a state that is almost always inaccurately recognized and wrongly valued in everyday experience. “God can only speak to the soul,” Father Sylvan writes, “and only when the soul exists.” He goes on: “But the soul of man only exists for a moment, as long as it takes for the Question to appear and then to disappear, as, for example, in the encounter with death between grief and sadness, between shock and fear; or in the encounter with supersatisfaction, between emptiness and boredom; or in the encounter with life’s revolutionary disappointments, before free fall turns to self-pity.”
(4) The practice of Christianity begins with the repeated efforts to recognize what takes place in oneself in the state of self-questioning. This implies a struggle against attempts to cover over the Question by means of explanations, emotional reactions or physical action. Father Sylvan collectively calls these three impulses “the first dispersal of the soul.” Through this term, he points to the fact that the force of attention is wasted and degraded through absorption by one or another part of the psychophysical organism.
“Certain Oriental teachers,” he writes, “warn us against giving too much attention to the things of the world. Certain of our Christian teachers also say this. But here error creeps in. One may give all one’s outer attention to the world without harming oneself in any way. To tell the truth, we are called by the Creator to spend this kind of attention. The struggle of the Christian is to contain the energy of the Question within oneself, not allowing this deeper attention to be mixed with the attention of the psychophysical organism.” This “first dispersal of the soul” is termed elsewhere by Father Sylvan “attachment,” and in more traditional Christian language, “worldly cares.”
(5) Through containing this special psychic energy that is activated in the experience of deep self-questioning, “the soul comes into existence and begins to gather itself into an independent entity.” According to Father Sylvan, this process can never be carried out without proper guidance and is, in the strictest sense, the task of “authentic esoteric Christianity,” which he characterizes as “the esotericism of energy, rather than words or ideas.”
................
(6) Finally, a truly Christian life is possible only for an individual in whom the process of “soul-making” has gone past a certain point. Such individuals are rare, but only they are capable of altruism in the strictly spiritual sense. In Father Sylvan’s language, “the soul begins to radiate.” “The task of self-purification becomes fused with the act of helping my neighbor.” “The first aim of human life is to pass from dispersal to radiation.”
..................................................
In short, the soul is not a fixed entity. According to Father Sylvan, it is a movement that begins whenever man experiences the psychological pain of contradiction. It is an actual energy, but one that is only at some beginning stage of its development and action. Every day, every more or less average human individual experiences the appearance of this energy in its most embryonic stage. Whenever there is pain or contradiction, this energy of the soul is released or “activated.” But almost always, almost without any exceptions whatsoever, this new energy is immediately dispersed and comes to nothing. A hundred, a thousand times a day, perhaps, “the soul is aborted.” An individual is completely unaware of this loss and remains so throughout his whole life. Without the necessary help and guidance, he never reaches the orientation necessary for enabling these everyday experiences to accumulate.
For Father Sylvan, most of our ordinary emotional reactions—both pleasant and unpleasant—only serve to cover over these experiences of contradiction. And the behavior and actions that result from these emotions thicken the covering and lead to further emotional reactions. Man becomes trapped in “the automatism of non-redemptive experience,” a phrase that Father Sylvan juxtaposes with St. Paul’s “body of death.”
“Lost Christianity” is the lost or forgotten power of man to extract the pure energy of the soul from the experiences that make up his life. This possibility is distinct only in the most vivid or painful moments of our ordinary lives, but it can be discovered in all experiences if one knows how to seek it. Certain powerful experiences—such as the encounter with death or deep disappointment—are accompanied by the sensation of presence; an attention appears that is simultaneously open to a higher, freer mind (“Spirit”) and to all the perceptions, sensations and emotions that constitute our ordinary self. One feels both separate and engaged in a new and entirely extraordinary way. One experiences “I Am.” This is the soul (in inception).
[/quote]
The above I think refers to Adamic humanity who have the potential to develop an individualized soul. The pre-adamics on the other hand are said to have a non-individualized or group soul. The above quotes are in line with Gurdjieff's view that one needs effort to grow a (individualized) soul.
fwiw
Iron
Dagobah Resident
I think that at the end of a cycle, with the upcoming wave the pool of adamics is replenished by some potential adamics coming from the pre-adamic pool.
Thanks Obyvatel for this excerpt, it was very helpful. Specially the part concerning the effort of attention. It ties well with the recent efforts of the forum in creating the 12 daily exercises for mind, body and soul.
Thanks Obyvatel for this excerpt, it was very helpful. Specially the part concerning the effort of attention. It ties well with the recent efforts of the forum in creating the 12 daily exercises for mind, body and soul.