Splitting as a Symptom of Internal Considering

[Laura]

The thing is, you have to know that when you are in this state, you are not "in your right mind" and you can't be making decisions and carrying stuff out until you regain your stability, your cool head.

I've looked but not found a way to recognize, or rather exercise control over, "not being in my right mind" that works reliably and preemptively every time. I do have a subtle sense of 'feeling' when I'm diverging or about to diverge from being real, but it's so easy to allow stronger sensations and feelings to overshadow this sense - especially when I'm in that mood of: "why do I have to always be the one who has to control himself? Why can't others put out a little effort?", kind of internal considering. Even then I don't necessarily go 'whole hog' into an identification, but I look forward to the day when I can perceive enough of a time lag to prevent it altogether. I've become quite sure it's possible.

Recognizing is pretty easy: you may feel something like what is called a "body rush" first of all; sometimes it feels like someone has just poured hot or cold water over the top of your head. It's like a psycho-physiological shock. Perhaps the more intensely the person ordinarily experiences emotions, the stronger the feeling of shock will be. I'm a person of very strong and deep emotions and for me, it was/is quite strong even if the stimulus is relatively minor. Maybe a person who has been repressed severely since childhood, and tends to suppress themselves, it might be less dramatic. But the results will still be pretty much the same.

This shock is generally accompanied by a freeze response. That means you are also rendered pretty much speechless. Your instinct is to withdraw, alone, avoid being noticed while you evaluate the environment. But some social restraints may prevent that, so you pretend that nothing has happened until you can get yourself away without drawing undue attention.

Exercising control over it, that is, trying to stop it, is not so easy. That takes a long time and lots of exposure to such shocks with a support network helping you to work your way through each one. That is, you sort of have to be inoculated or "toughened". You have to deliberately expose yourself to shocks again and again and again.

It could be said that raising children is good practice. You love them, they hurt you, you find that you have to overcome your hurts/tendency to want to shift into black and white thinking, because of your love for them. This is great practice for stopping thinking of the self first and always thinking of someone else and their needs first.

For me, a lot of this has been "virtual" practice by virtue of running discussion groups, being flamed and defamed, and so on. I've grown close to a number of members of the groups at various times over the years, and have experienced numerous "betrayals of trust", if you want to call it that, which have given me further practice.

Then, of course, there is the more direct work I did with Ark and then with the household here. The upshot of it is: once you have really examined it, worked with it, learned by experience that you CAN re-wire yourself or even extinct certain programs by over-charging them or constant exposure under controlled conditions, you get a real "taste" of all the variations of the programs both in yourself and others. That is, when I see a person acting a certain way, even if they think they are hiding it, I know what is going on, pretty much what they are thinking. I know about the theorizing, the sweeping generalizations, the defensive maneuvers, the cunning plans for revenge, or even the "I'm gonna go eat worms and die" routine that gets trotted out.

I used to think that I could help the person by bringing them to the table, so to say, and long extensive discussions and so on. I've given that up, however.

At this point in my life, I have a limited amount of energy and I have to budget it and utilize it for the optimal purposes. Right now, that is dealing with the current legal and financial attacks so I can get that settled and get back to writing and making videos. Obviously, as our new attorney recently told us after reading the timeline of events "THEY want to destroy you." And the only reason that can be is to stop the current projects. Thus, when, in the midst of all the other things I'm dealing with, an individual comes along with the Black and White thinking/Internal Considering routine, and it impinges on me or the group in any way, my course is to steer clear of engagement because I have more pressing things to do with my limited energy. As Gurdjieff wrote (and his experiences are invaluable and prove themselves over and over again by direct experience):

"The next demand which is made of the members of a group is that they must tell the teacher of the group the whole truth.

"This also must be clearly and properly understood. People do not realize what a big place in their lives is occupied by lying or even if only by the suppression of the truth. People are unable to be sincere either with themselves or with others. They do not even understand that to learn to be sincere when it is necessary is one of the most difficult things on earth.

They imagine that to speak or not to speak the truth, to be or not to be sincere, depends upon them. Therefore they have to learn this and learn it first of all in relation to the teacher of the work. Telling the teacher a deliberate lie, or being insincere with him, or suppressing something, makes their presence in the group completely useless and is even worse than being rude or uncivil to him or in his presence.

"The next demand made of members of a group is that they must remember why they came to the group. They came to learn and to work on themselves and to learn and to work not as they understand it themselves but as they are told to. If, therefore, once they are in the group, they begin to feel or to express mistrust towards the teacher, to criticize his actions, to find that they understand better how the group should be conducted and especially if they show lack of external considering in relation to the teacher, lack of respect for him, asperity, impatience, tendency to argument, this at once puts an end to any possibility of work, for work is possible only as long as people remember that they have come to learn and not to teach.

"If a man begins to distrust the teacher, the teacher becomes unnecessary to him and he becomes unnecessary to the teacher. And in this event it is better for him to go and look for another teacher or try to work without one. This will do him no good, but in any case it will do less harm than lying, suppression, or resistance, or mistrust of the teacher.

And:

"It often happens that, having stopped before some barrier, usually the smallest and the most simple, people turn against the work, against the teacher, and against other members of the group, and accuse them of the very thing that is becoming revealed to them in themselves.

"Sometimes they repent later and blame themselves, then they again blame others, then they repent once more, and so on. But there is nothing that shows up a man better than his attitude towards the work and the teacher after he has left it. Sometimes such tests are arranged intentionally. A man is placed in such a position that he is obliged to leave and he is fully justified in having a grievance either against the teacher or against some other person. And then he is watched to see how he will behave. A decent man will behave decently even if he thinks that he has been treated unjustly or wrongly. But many people in such circumstances show a side of their nature which otherwise they would never show. And at times it is a necessary means for exposing a man's nature. So long as you are good to a man he is good to you. But what will he be like if you scratch him a little?

"But this is not the chief thing; the chief thing is his own personal attitude, his own valuation of the ideas which he receives or has received, and his keeping or losing this valuation. A man may think for a long time and quite sincerely that he wants to work and even make great efforts, and then he may throw up everything and even definitely go against the work; justify himself, invent various fabrications, deliberately ascribe a wrong meaning to what he has heard, and so on."

"What happens to them for this?" asked one of the audience.

"Nothing—what could happen to them?" said G. "They are their own punishment. And what punishment could be worse?

And:

"Speaking in general the most difficult barrier is the conquest of lying. A man lies so much and so constantly both to himself and to others that he ceases to notice it. Nevertheless lying must be conquered. And the first effort required of a man is to conquer lying in relation to the teacher. A man must either decide at once to tell him nothing but the truth, or at once give up the whole thing.

"You must realize that the teacher takes a very difficult task upon himself, the cleaning and the repair of human machines. Of course he accepts only those machines that are within his power to mend. If something essential is broken or put out of order in the machine, then he refuses to take it. But even such machines, which by their nature could still be cleaned, become quite hopeless if they begin to tell lies. A lie to the teacher, even the most insignificant, concealment of any kind such as the concealment of something another has asked to be kept secret, or of something the man himself has said to another, at once puts an end to the work of that man, especially if he has previously made any efforts.

"Here is something you must bear in mind. Every effort a man makes increases the demands made upon him. So long as a man has not made any serious efforts the demands made upon him are very small, but his efforts immediately increase the demands made upon him. And the greater the efforts that are made, the greater the new demands.

"At this stage people very often make a mistake that is constantly made. They think that the efforts they have previously made, their former merits, so to speak, give them some kind of rights or advantages, diminish the demands to be made upon them, and constitute as it were an excuse should they not work or should they afterwards do something wrong. This, of course, is most profoundly false. Nothing that a man did yesterday excuses him today. Quite the reverse, if a man did nothing yesterday, no demands are made upon him today; if he did anything yesterday, it means that he must do more today. This certainly does not mean that it is better to do nothing. Whoever does nothing receives nothing.

And:

"One must realize in general that positive efforts and even sacrifices in the work do not justify or excuse mistakes which may follow. On the contrary, things that could be forgiven in a man who has made no efforts and who has sacrificed nothing will not be forgiven in another who has already made great sacrifices.

"This seems to be unjust, but one must understand the law. There is, as it were, a separate account kept for every man. His efforts and sacrifices are written down on one side of the book and his mistakes and misdeeds on the other side. What is written down on the positive side can never atone for what is written down on the negative side. What is recorded on the negative side can only be wiped out by the truth, that is to say, by an instant and complete confession to himself and to others and above all to the teacher. If a man sees his fault but continues to justify himself, a small offense may destroy the result of whole years of work and effort. In the work, therefore, it is often better to admit one's guilt even when one is not guilty.

And:

First of all you must understand that in a group all are responsible for one another. A mistake on the part of one is considered as a mistake on the part of all. This is a law. And this law is well founded for, as you will see later, what one acquires is acquired also by all.

"The rule of common responsibility must be borne well in mind. It has another side also. Members of a group are responsible not only for the mistakes of others, but also for their failures. The success of one is the success of all. The failure of one is the failure of all. A grave mistake on the part of one, such as for instance the breaking of a fundamental rule, inevitably leads to the dissolution of the whole group.

"A group must work as one machine. The parts of the machine must know one another and help one another. In a group there can be no personal interests opposed to the interests of others, or opposed to the interests of the work, there can be no personal sympathies or antipathies which hinder the work.

All the members of a group are friends and brothers, but if one of them leaves, and especially if he is sent away by the teacher, he ceases to be a friend and a brother and at once becomes a stranger, as one who is cut off. It often becomes a very hard rule, but nevertheless it is necessary. People may be lifelong friends and may enter a group together. Afterwards one of them leaves. The other then has no right to speak to him about the work of the group. The man who has left feels hurt, he does not understand this, and they quarrel. In order to avoid this where relations, such as husband and wife, mother and daughter, and so on, are concerned, we count them as one, that is, husband and wife are counted as one member of the group. Thus if one of them cannot go on with the work and leaves, the other is considered guilty and must also leave.

Furthermore, you must remember that I can help you only to the extent that you help me. Moreover your help, especially at the beginning, will be reckoned not by actual results which are almost certain to be nil, but by the number and the magnitude of your efforts."

"There is no particular benefit in the existence of groups in themselves and there is no particular merit in belonging to groups. The benefit or usefulness of groups is determined by their results.

"The work of every man can proceed in three directions. He can be useful to the work. He can be useful to me. And he can be useful to himself.

Of course it is desirable that a man's work should produce results in all three directions. Failing this, one can be reconciled to two. For instance, if a man is useful to me, by this very fact he is useful also to the work. Or if he is useful to the work, he is useful also to me.

But if, let us say, a man is useful to the work and useful to me, but is not able to be useful to himself, this is much worse because it cannot last long. If a man takes nothing for himself and does not change, if he remains such as he was before, then the fact of his having by chance been useful for a short time is not placed to his credit, and, what is more important, his usefulness does not last for long.

The work grows and changes. If a man himself does not grow or change he cannot keep up with the work. The work leaves him behind and then the very thing that was useful may begin to be harmful."

Now, bringing it all back home to WHY the work of practicing External Considering is important; why cleaning the machine is important, why proper development of the Emotional Center is important:

"You must understand," he said, "that ordinary efforts do not count. Only super-efforts count. And so it is always and in everything. Those who do not wish to make super-efforts had better give up everything and take care of their health."

"Can not super-efforts be dangerous?" asked one of the audience who was usually particularly careful about his health.

"Of course they can," said G., "but it is better to die making efforts to awaken than to live in sleep. That's one thing. For another thing it is not so easy to die from efforts. We have much more strength than we think. But we never make use of it. You must understand one feature of the organization of the human machine.

"A very important role in the human machine is played by a certain kind of accumulator. There are two small accumulators near each center filled with the particular substance necessary for the work of the given center.

"In addition, there is in the organism a large accumulator which feeds the small ones. The small accumulators are connected together, and further, each of them is connected with the center next to which it stands, as well as with the large accumulator."

"Accumulators work in the following way," he said. "Let us suppose that a man is working or is reading a difficult book and trying to understand it, in which case several 'rolls' {wheels?} revolve in the thinking apparatus in his head. Or let us suppose that he is walking up a hill and is getting tired, in which case the 'rolls' revolve in the moving center.

"In the first instance the intellectual center, and in the second the moving center, draw the energy necessary for their work from the small accumulators. When an accumulator is nearly empty a man feels tired. He would like to stop, to sit down if he is walking, to think of something else if he is solving a difficult problem. But quite unexpectedly he feels an inflow of strength, and he is once more able to walk or to work. This means that the center has become connected with the second accumulator and is taking energy from it. Meanwhile the first accumulator is refilling with energy from the large accumulator. The work of the center goes on. The man continues to walk or to work. Sometimes a short rest is required to insure this connection. Sometimes a shock, sometimes an effort. Anyway, the work goes on. After a certain time the store of energy in the second accumulator also becomes exhausted. The man again feels tired.

"Again an external shock, or a short rest, or a cigarette, or an effort, and he is connected with the first accumulator. But it may easily happen that the center has drawn energy from the second accumulator so quickly that the first one has had no time to refill itself from the large accumulator, and has taken only half the energy it can hold; it is only half full.

"Having become reconnected with the first accumulator the center begins to draw energy from it, while the second accumulator becomes connected with and draws energy from the large accumulator. But this time the first accumulator was only half full. The center quickly exhausts its energy, and in the meantime the second accumulator has succeeded in getting only a quarter full. The center becomes connected with it, swiftly exhausts all its energy, and connects once more with the first accumulator, and so on. After a certain time the organism is brought to such a state that neither of the small accumulators has a drop of energy left. This time the man feels really tired. He almost falls down, he almost drops asleep, or else his organism becomes affected, he starts a headache, palpitations begin, or he feels sick.

"Then suddenly, again a short rest, or an external shock, or an effort, brings a new flow of energy and the man is once more able to think, to walk, or to work.

"This means that the center has become connected directly to the large accumulator.

"The large accumulator contains an enormous amount of energy. Connected with the large accumulator a man is literally able to perform miracles. But of course, if the 'rolls' continue to turn and energy which is made from air, food, and impressions continues to pour out of the large accumulator faster than it pours in, then there comes a moment when the large accumulator is drained of all energy and the organism dies. But this happens very seldom. Usually the organism automatically stops working long before this. Special conditions are necessary to cause the organism to die exhausted of all its energy. In ordinary conditions a man will fall asleep or he will faint or he will develop some internal complication which will stop the work a long time before the real danger.

"One need not, therefore, be afraid of efforts; the danger of dying from them is not at all great. It is much easier to die from inaction, from laziness, and from the fear of making efforts.

"Our aim, on the contrary, is to learn to connect the necessary center with the large accumulator. So long as we are unable to do this, all our work will be wasted because we shall fall asleep before our efforts can give any kind of results.

"Small accumulators suffice for the ordinary, everyday work of life. But for work on oneself, for inner growth, and for the efforts which are required of a man who enters the way, the energy from these small accumulators is not enough.

"We must learn how to draw energy straight from the large accumulator.

"This however is possible only with the help of the emotional center. It is essential that this be understood. The connection with the large accumulator can be effected only through the emotional center. The instinctive, moving, and intellectual centers, by themselves, can feed only on the small accumulators.

"This is precisely what people do not understand. Therefore their aim must be the development of the activity of the emotional center. The emotional center is an apparatus much more subtle than the intellectual center, particularly if we take into consideration the fact that in the whole of the intellectual center the only part that works is the formatory apparatus and that many things are quite inaccessible to the intellectual center. If anyone desires to know and to understand more than he actually knows and understands, he must remember that this new knowledge and this new understanding will come through the emotional center and not through the intellectual center."

 

[Buddy]

Recognizing is pretty easy: you may feel something like what is called a "body rush" first of all; sometimes it feels like someone has just poured hot or cold water over the top of your head. It's like a psycho-physiological shock. Perhaps the more intensely the person ordinarily experiences emotions, the stronger the feeling of shock will be. I'm a person of very strong and deep emotions and for me, it was/is quite strong even if the stimulus is relatively minor. Maybe a person who has been repressed severely since childhood, and tends to suppress themselves, it might be less dramatic. But the results will still be pretty much the same.

This shock is generally accompanied by a freeze response. That means you are also rendered pretty much speechless. Your instinct is to withdraw, alone, avoid being noticed while you evaluate the environment. But some social restraints may prevent that, so you pretend that nothing has happened until you can get yourself away without drawing undue attention.

I see that I was somewhat misaligned with you at the time. I must have been merely referring to being "off my center" as an example of not being in my right mind. I am most definitely familiar with the 'body rush' and your subsequent description and I feel humbled by your knowing. It's like it came in loud and clear. Thanks for that.

 

[neema]

Just wanted to jump in again and thanks everyone for their input in this thread. Also I don’t understand how I missed this book, Fear of the Abyss by Aleta Edwards. I bought it immediately the other day and haven’t been able to stop reading. I'm almost through one read, and it is really an emotional read. This has led me to some interesting insights about myself that I will have to make a separate thread about.

...
Or you just feel like crying... only you don't want anyone to know that you are that hurt because it makes you look like a wimp. You don't want to talk about it, you just want to sit there and stew in your misery/rage/thoughts of revenge.

It's amazing how common these thoughts can be. It really helps to know "I" am not alone in these thoughts.

But you can only do this with people who know the score, who understand what you are doing, why, and how it works. In short, only with people you can really trust.

And that is the key isn’t it.

Well did you do collecting much information, because it seems people need multiple versions of explanations (of what their problems are and how to get out of their pit) from different authors saying essentially same thing, but those different colors & flavors are very much needed. I'm very happy for the redundancy.

That is very true. I'm learning much about feeling shameful in context of my behavior. For example I have always been ashamed to admit it, but I just can't understand Gurdjieff. When I read his words my mind goes numb. But the information in Aleta Edwards book is an epiphany for me.

I'm starting to realize that there is much i don't need to be ashamed of.

 

[seek10]

I want to thank Laura and others for this thread. I can identify for many of them discussed here. After realizing that I keep forgetting my tendencies, I started folder with print outs from different topics relevant to me. This includes Notes from Self Discipline, 5 psychology books, Reinventing life, CBT, ADHD, Trauma related items, fear of abyss, Emotional Intelligence, energy centers. I hate to say that I end up doing repeated reading whenever I feel depressed.

One issue I keep realizing, I fail to identify depression when it sets in (due to lack of sleep or I ate some inflamed food or stress consumed me make me vulnerable to automatic self-talk ). When the pain becomes big enough, the bulb glows and I try to rehash and take steps to slow down .

Recent times I have been reading lot of works from Gaber Mate, Daniel Goldman, Candice Pert, other cognitive science books. It has been a revealing exercise in the sense, I suddenly started realizing why I felt so painful in relations with others and how I used to project on to others at different roles and different dynamics play out at work setting which I hated. I also started to using some emotional intelligence techniques with kids, for my surprise they worked great making every body's life easier. I should have done this LONG time back, it could have reduced the LOT of pain in those interaction.

Thanks for sharing that. I guess the same or similar applies to me, including acting as a theorist planning revenge.
And I guess maybe there could be a predominant pattern with me after all, now that I allow myself to freely think about it. I can probably come up with hundreds of example scenarios, starting in early childhood, of something I rarely like to talk about.
These experiences seem centered around people presuming to judge me as somehow deficient in one capacity or another. I would be instructed, explained to, corrected or otherwise "helped" because they didn't see me as fast enough on the uptake, I suppose. My internal experience was just the opposite. I comprehended, understood or otherwise "saw" the same things they did, and maybe more, but I was a little slow in showing, or otherwise demonstrating it. Or I had trouble expressing it correctly, or in a way that's consistent with some social norm at the time.
It got to a point where "gun-shy" is probably the best word for it. I cared a great deal about what people thought of me, but there seemed no way out of the dilemma other than splitting in a way that hurt but let me think of myself, and maybe appear to others, as "strong and silent type", knowledgeable about, or uninterested in, so-and-so. I would refuse to participate in certain activities or would be hesitant in taking on a job if I knew there would be people looking at me and judging me for whatever reason and I would project that "once again, I won't be seen as an equal or otherwise welcome member of the cliche or group and so what's the use?"

It seems there was always a part of me seeing what I was doing, though, and I was always unhappy with this state of affairs and always looking for reasons and explanations.
That is definitely internal considering, as I understand it, as my behavior is being determined by what I think about whatever, including what I think other people think instead of what might be the best response to the actual situation in the moment. Plus, it was a long time before I realized that people act from their previous experiences and their thoughts about me in preference to what's actually in front of them and what value it might hold (and rather than the me that I perceived myself to be).

I too have similar types of experience. At work place, I saw lot of dynamics some I hated, some made me wonder what the heck it is. I used to prime up when I felt that boss or some body is discriminating etc. . Luckily I discuss with trusted friends( or brain dump it to revisit later) and see later, which literally gives different perspective . I distrusted my self when I primed up. It is painful to watch how our centers interfere, usurp each one’s energy and make mess of everything, however when one thinks they are watching.

This reminds me of conflict management presentation I attended long time back. This helped me to realize that how many different temperaments, different skills ( analytical, technical, relationship building, communicative etc) and how one can express it. Obviously I forgot about that. Of course, This is not taking in centers influences.

_http://www.google.com/imgres?client=firefox-a&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1536&bih=800&tbm=isch&tbnid=n4jksbuRT6iOAM:&imgrefurl=http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm%3Farticleid%3D858326%26show%3Dhtml&docid=HATYO693UCQ6bM&imgurl=http://www.emeraldinsight.com/content_images/fig/1770090205005.png&w=1067&h=783&ei=PbXiUbPAK_Sw4AOSlID4Bg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=218&page=1&tbnh=139&tbnw=190&start=0&ndsp=50&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:0,i:124&tx=138&ty=107#imgdii=n4jksbuRT6iOAM%3A%3BmZMkUy33PHqtTM%3Bn4jksbuRT6iOAM%3A

_http://www.google.com/imgres?client=firefox-a&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1536&bih=800&tbm=isch&tbnid=n4jksbuRT6iOAM:&imgrefurl=http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm%3Farticleid%3D858326%26show%3Dhtml&docid=HATYO693UCQ6bM&imgurl=http://www.emeraldinsight.com/content_images/fig/1770090205005.png&w=1067&h=783&ei=PbXiUbPAK_Sw4AOSlID4Bg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=218&page=1&tbnh=139&tbnw=190&start=0&ndsp=50&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:0,i:124&tx=138&ty=107#imgdii=_

 

[Zadius Sky]

Once again, thanks to anyone who contributed further to this thread.

I've been contemplating on this topic and reading Redirect over the weekend. In the book, Wilson discussed the "pleasure of uncertainty" where one can reduce uncertainty about negative events (in terms of reshaping our narratives), but when one reduce uncertainty about the positive events in our lives, we rob the "pleasures" that these events give us. There's a high chance that we would not want to reduce this kind of uncertainty to avoid losing these "pleasures."

This ties in with my recent experience that I was struggling with. Since last April, I became infatuated or "in love" with a girl who I've noticed over time and talked with her from time to time. And, consistently, she has been "occupying my mind" from morning to night, daily, and has been distracting my attention at any given moment (and it was becoming a waste of my energy). This is only the second time that I ever felt like this (the last time was over 10 years ago - such feelings at that time ended due to a "distance from an object" technique). I had been trying to gain knowledge to "knock" myself out of it or to get over it. I've also been giving myself all kinds of temporary negative self-talk ("I'm retard and deaf, she'll never go for me," etc.), but that didn't work (as I then realized that I was suppressing/repressing). Looking back on it, I'm seeing this kind of "feelings" as one-sided of splitting (all-good) without looking at the other side. These chemicals "forced" me to this side of thinking and trying to tell me to "go for it" because, well, it's all good (pleasure).

It's all internal consideration.

Then, I realized that this would be a "normal" thing, like a "first step" or a possibility towards forming a relationship (on an instinct basis) but the problem, as I observed some couples over the years, was that a person can be "stuck" to this one side of thinking until that person receives a shock of sorts, being forced (maybe temporary) to the other side, which doesn't "fit" with that person's "ideal views" of the other person, so to speak, and it can shatter the relationship. There was no balance, osit.

Splitting can be pretty much applied to any situation, I think.

This is my thinking at this point. I could be wrong, though.

 

[Thomas Alan]

I found this thread very helpful as well. Thanks to all that have contributed.

I can see this in my self, what I interpret as attacks from others that many times have a bit of truth to them, the immediate emotional response. Then comes the black and white thinking, the person giving the criticism is all bad and I am all good.

I will work on just accepting the emotional hit for what it is, then in quieter moments sorting it out thoughtfully. Not an easy task, years of Work likely. But definitely worthwhile.

Mac

 

[Laura]

I can see this in my self, what I interpret as attacks from others that many times have a bit of truth to them, the immediate emotional response. Then comes the black and white thinking, the person giving the criticism is all bad and I am all good.

Sometimes there is a LOT of truth in the "attack". If you notice that you seldom or never say "oh, I was wrong, I made a mistake, I'm sorry" then YOU may have a problem.

If you notice that everything that's ever been wrong in your life is always someone else's fault or "fate" or anything but YOUR OWN RESPONSIBILITY, then you may have a problem.

 

[Meg]

I found this thread very helpful as well. Thanks to all that have contributed.

I can see this in my self, what I interpret as attacks from others that many times have a bit of truth to them, the immediate emotional response. Then comes the black and white thinking, the person giving the criticism is all bad and I am all good.

I can see this in myself too. It's like a punch in the gut and definitely needed. If once you have sorted through what was said, and determined what part is true and what isn't, does the emotional response go away? I mean, if the emotional response stops, are you at the truth of your program and lies you believe about yourself?

Thanks for all who contributed. A great learning tool.

 

[GqSoul]

the timing of my reading this thread has been very fortuitous. thanks to the contributors, especially for the quoted excerpts...I'll certainly be adding some new books to the expanding reading list.

I came to this thread as I've been reading Mouravieff's gnosis and trying to synthesize his treatment of the external/internal consideration dynamic with what I've studied in Gurdjief's work.

Being/growing up a narcissistically wounded perfectionist, I've been aware of this "switched" behavior in myself from early on -- thankfully adding knowledge, being shocked repeatedly, and being held in front of mirrors has served to increase the ability to recognize the myriad subtle forms and counter/transform them in order to keep progressing.

I think I can say that it is only today that I really grok the injunction against lying, especially to oneself, if there is any hope of beginning the work.in this light also I have a new found gratitude for the service that the network as well as random others provide in contradicting my false "I"dentity.

interestingly, last night after reading and ruminating on the topic, the universe conspired with my wife to serve me up a perfect example of my inner consideration. We were working on a home decorating project and figuring out the best way to go about it. I noticed in the course of working that I was becoming agitated, annoyed and irritable -- without any seeming instigation. Her disappearance downstairs to look for a needed tool allowed me some time to try and "recollect" myself. Even with this moment of self-observation, I was still very curt, frustrated and rude when we reached a point in the project where we found ourselves discussing and miscommunicating how each of us thought it best to proceed.

The above description are my wife's words as told me soon after we worked through the kinks and successfully completed the task. All of the internal consideration I was struggling to hide, was so painfully obvious to her. She gently mirrored the situation for me, highlighting that even though the words I used weren't hurtful or rude, the energy I projected was quite offensive.

Even though I accepted her message, I squirmed and rationalized as we talked, self-justifying all the way before finally acquiescing and acknowledging that I was at fault.

Recapitulating this scenario to myself, it seems I might have short-circuited the situation early on by "making a fool of myself" and copping to being chemically imbalanced at the moment. Furthermore, I realize it is only now, after the benefit of another day of reading and medidating that I truly "accept my responsibility". Fortunately I have a great partner in the work, and being aware of each other's issues we've afforded each other the safety of being challenged/mirrored in an environment of love and trust.


Admin note: paragraph spacing added for ease of reading by others.

 

[Laura]

<snip>

Even though I accepted her message, I squirmed and rationalized as we talked, self-justifying all the way before finally acquiescing and acknowledging that I was at fault.

Recapitulating this scenario to myself, it seems I might have short-circuited the situation early on by "making a fool of myself" and copping to being chemically imbalanced at the moment.

The above is well put because it describes exactly what happens when the person is in a state of Internal Considering/mild splitting. In fact, you can get the "taste" of what is going on from the very fact that you are "squirming, rationalizing and self-justifying".

I want to note here that sometimes a person is more or less susceptible to such states due to all kinds of unknown variables. We've sort of made a study of it here and there are contributing factors such as tiredness, the onset of illness, chemical imbalances due to diet, and I even have noticed that EM factors, such as weather, can make a person more inclined to slip into Internal Considering. That leads me to think that the state can be induced by means of "beams or rays" for lack of a better word. You know, like microwave towers or infra-sound or something like that.

I recall an experiment done by the US Navy written up in a book where a group of pals were put in a room and subjected to infra-sound and within a very short time they were all arguing and fighting with one another.

I think that this is an important thing to keep in mind in today's world of increasing, invasive, controls especially given the many revelations of secret experiments undertaken by government to learn how to control human minds and behaviors.

It is something that has to be kept in mind along with the list of natural things that can make one more susceptible. In fact, having a good idea that you can be driven to think/feel/behave a certain way by such nefarious forces only makes the problem more worthy of attention and diligent effort. I don't know about you, but the idea that a gang that does not have my best interests at heart can meddle with my mental/emotional state and cause me to engage in behavior and actions that hurt people who DO have my best interests at heart, to mis-trust them, to think badly of them, to destroy relationships, really ticks me off.

I thought I would include here what GqSoul wrote in a related thread because it is sharp and applicable. (I have added some bolding to the text.)

Could it be said accurately that overconfident thinking describes something of a default state that precipitates "splitting" and similar defense mechanisms?

It seems that in our sleeping state, dissociated from true objective (cosmic) consciousness, we misperceive every facet of reality.

The noted persistence of the "illusion of validity" that we maintain, and the vehemence with which we defend it, seems to depend on where we are on the spectrum of psychological health.

In this way, the cleaner and more balanced the machine, the less exaggeration (shocks) necessary to align or calibrate the accuracy of our forecasts...

osit, wondering out loud.

 

[happyliza]

Thank you so much for this incredibly important thread. I agree that it incorporates many things together. I particularly like the summary below from Laura and can really 'identify' with it.

It's almost impossible to NOT experience a little splitting when receiving an emotional shock. Whatever the source of the shock USUALLY (not always) gets immediately put in the "all bad" category in your mind and you review your entire relationship with that individual through the "new glasses" and suddenly see all the things you missed that told you what a rotter s/he was/is. It is right there that the most Internal Considering goes on. It's all about you being so good and whoever being so bad.

Thing is, this is fairly normal as Gurdjieff makes clear.

What is healthy, and a sign of moving to better mastery and integration is getting over it fairly quickly and realizing that you were just in a sort of PMS state. And you can't do this by repressing it/suppressing it and allowing it to grow and fester inside.

As I am well past PMS now, I do think we still have the hormonal imbalances (diet related ie Life without bread description). Plus REACTIONARY state - whatever we call them. I catch myself very often in these and the good/bad syndrome with significant others and external factors, events, 'scratchings' - as per Gurdjieff.

Ths most'hurtful' are those in my relationship where I misconstrue something negative that is 'fed' to me OR my boundary/concept of RESPECT (towards me) is 'ignored'. Then I go into purely black and white -bad/good behaviour thinking - very emotional, hurt and angry thoughts over-ride rationality creating untold stress until discussed or resolved. This may well be self importance but also self respect/boundaries/red flags from past. Either way it becomes all encompassing, negative energy and makes me Food for a while. Internal narative is adamant I am correct to feel this way yet fear of loss (again) rears its ugly head.

For this reason I don't think it is PMS, could be childhood related trauma of not having feelings heard (therefore repressed inner hurt/anger) BUT either way it is a total loss of personal equilibrium while still trying to be objective about the whole scenario under emotionally charged circumstances. These have happened alot recently in a new 6 month relationship after 3 years of chosen abstinence to stop repeating pathalogical cycles. There is definitely a sub conscious self-protect thing going on yet when these episodes happen Ifeel I am being carried along on a predators game with my mind losing my normal self control in the process.

Self control could be another issue of course because this also means I am hiding my anger, feelings, etc inside and then the volcano erupts at the slightest trigger of being wronged? the over-stepping of mutual respect boundaries. Despite aiming for an unconditional love relationship elements of childhood control (father) still rears it ugly head. So maybe yes, PMS is nearest description as it certainy causes a negative world view/ blues to appear in an otherwise outgoing and positve creative person. The 'switch' 'trigger' purely being witnessing/hearing negative info and one turns from a Jekyll into a Hyde and no one is more upset/hurt at this sudden change than myself. Plus it can cause untold damage to relationships very quickly - friends or otherwise - if not recognised asap and dealt with rationally -which overcoming the intense emotion at the same time takes an incredible amount of will-power. Only Love for the other being keeps you sane at a time when you can only blindly see them/the world as bad/unfair/hurtful - evil even. Willpower helps to keep things as objective as possible by trying to do a 'helicopter' view of the scenario while emotions are running amok.

I may well be wrong and this is hurt pride and projection too as to how you wish someone to be. All is well now but friends have observed the selfish streak in my partner that surfaces concerning allocating rare available time together and this is practically resolved now - just a 'teething' problem - so perhaps not. I do request feedback from my closest girlfriend accepting that I could be wrong and jumping to conclusions or high expectations due to our study etc.

Although I have studied the major psychology books I do not have any of the cognitive science ones yet and only learn what is on the thread as well as be as introspective/self observing as possible. So I too have a long long way to go and the subconscious can be a beggar to penetrate together with the many hundreds of 'I's.

I was wondering whether a better way to access the repressed memories and bahaviour may be through hypnotherapy? (I have studied this in depth now and wish to pursue training). By studying such threads as this it may be possible to devise objectively truthful questions for myself/sub-conscoius for a suitably qualified hypnotherapist to work with and maybe role play to test trigger points and their causes? Just a thought. I am interested to know - from Laura's vast experience with Hypnotherapy, when someone is truly hypnotised whether the sub conscious level can lie to itself? If a habit or predator or main feature is so deeply embedded in someone whether the disassociation/lie/self deception can affect the body's etheric field. Notwithstanding errant entities/attachments maybe I guess it depends WHO is talking and we have to get through that level first.

I hope I haven't gone off topic but I find this all relative

 

[happyliza]

The thing is, you have to know that when you are in this state, you are not "in your right mind" and you can't be making decisions and carrying stuff out until you regain your stability, your cool head.

I've looked but not found a way to recognize, or rather exercise control over, "not being in my right mind" that works reliably and preemptively every time. I do have a subtle sense of 'feeling' when I'm diverging or about to diverge from being real, but it's so easy to allow stronger sensations and feelings to overshadow this sense - especially when I'm in that mood of: "why do I have to always be the one who has to control himself? Why can't others put out a little effort?", kind of internal considering. Even then I don't necessarily go 'whole hog' into an identification, but I look forward to the day when I can perceive enough of a time lag to prevent it altogether. I've become quite sure it's possible.

Recognizing is pretty easy: you may feel something like what is called a "body rush" first of all; sometimes it feels like someone has just poured hot or cold water over the top of your head. It's like a psycho-physiological shock. Perhaps the more intensely the person ordinarily experiences emotions, the stronger the feeling of shock will be. I'm a person of very strong and deep emotions and for me, it was/is quite strong even if the stimulus is relatively minor. Maybe a person who has been repressed severely since childhood, and tends to suppress themselves, it might be less dramatic. But the results will still be pretty much the same.

This shock is generally accompanied by a freeze response. That means you are also rendered pretty much speechless. Your instinct is to withdraw, alone, avoid being noticed while you evaluate the environment. But some social restraints may prevent that, so you pretend that nothing has happened until you can get yourself away without drawing undue attention.

Exercising control over it, that is, trying to stop it, is not so easy. That takes a long time and lots of exposure to such shocks with a support network helping you to work your way through each one. That is, you sort of have to be inoculated or "toughened". You have to deliberately expose yourself to shocks again and again and again.

It could be said that raising children is good practice. You love them, they hurt you, you find that you have to overcome your hurts/tendency to want to shift into black and white thinking, because of your love for them. This is great practice for stopping thinking of the self first and always thinking of someone else and their needs first.

OMG Laura - you have just described for me – for the first time in my life - my total reaction to my estranged daughters who I love and miss to the core of my being! I was portrayed as the bad person by my ex husband, when I divorced him, and he swore to me that he would make my children ‘walk with their feet’ from my custody. Which he did pretty well based on lies and deceptions even to this day. This too is obviously repressed in me and a continual inner grief/pain to say the least 24/7.

Every time I try to explain things or answer a question –rare coming from them (maybe for the same reason) I just cannot communicate! I go totally speechless then garble some garbage when I have had years of internal dialogue going on concerning such times and possible truth-giving scenarios. I end up just blowing it because I feel their accusatory feelings and the futileness of it all because of the wall my ex has created in their minds against me. I have tried writing and sending emails whatever but never and response of feedback.. All communication was one-sided ie me always trying to contact them and talk to them – and again to no avail still. They were even told to only talk to me on birthdays and Christmas to get what they could! The worst accusation was ’Why did you always put your boyfriends before us!” Which was never the case as I dotted on them – but they have learned such a selfish streak from him that whatever I say falls on deaf ears. Thus I become totally paralysed (frozen) and tongue tied – and only ever with my daughters because I am in shock and so emotionally charged up it chokes me with hurt.

I could never decipher how I reacted like that every time or what to do about it. Unfortunately it would always work against me as in their eyes it just proved them and my ex right and that I was as guilty as anything as I couldn’t speak coherently. Which was the exact opposite.

Background:

When they do see me (for maybe one hour each time I try to see them) which is now only 2 x per year if I can get back to UK. My eldest daughter just sits there rigidly hardly any conversation feeling quite righteous and condescending as if she is just tolerating my presence. Conversation ends up being so false being under such scrutiny even though I try to ask open ended questions and be as light –hearted and caring as possible. This is despite a constant big lump in my throat due to the emotional situation. It strangulates me inside and takes ages to get over the overwhelming depression that descends on me each time I see them – even though my whole world totally lights up when they agree to meet. I am not lying to myself as I know it is just a form of ‘duty’ for them - but my joy is genuine – naturally. Most of my texts or messages never get answered – this has been ongoing since 1996. Plus they have cut off from my side of the family totally. Their father wouldn’t even contribute to his own son’s funeral – even though they all came. It so saddens me what a role model they ended up with by me relenting to my son (who felt sorry for his father being the one ‘ousted’) and letting him go to live with the alcoholic pathological. It was my intention to move towns with the kids – I wish I had – but hindsight is a killer.

It is a similar but more controlled emotional shock and freeze that I get on all emotional situations – such as the example in my last post on this thread. It got worse I think due to having to deal with the psychopaths in my life – they too leave you totally tongue-tied but that is deliberate part of their mind games.

 

[Lisa Guliani]

I can see this tendency to paint others as 'all bad' in myself too.
It's very difficult to view a person who has hurt you or betrayed trust as not being 'all bad' or unable to do anything positive, decent, honest, worthwhile or good.
Reminds me of that old expression, "You're only as good as your last sale."

I used to think a lot more within the lines of 'black and white', but experience has shown me people seldom, if ever, fall so neatly into those categories.
And, much as I've sometimes hated to admit it, I've found myself to be wrong about some of the people I used to judge in this manner.
Thank you very much for posting this thread, and for all the thoughtful feedback within it that provokes me to think more deeply about how to overcome my own tendencies to think people into little boxes and throw away the key.

It's only been recently that I've been able to accept the realization that if I can grow and change, then others are also capable of growing and changing.
Accepting that realization has allowed me to look at people through a wider, more compassionate lens. I'm not saying I can do this with EVERYBODY, because with some people, it just seems much harder to do.
It's not an easy thing ( for me). But others have shown me it CAN be done and this gives me hope for self-improvement.

Just because someone burns a bridge, doesn't mean the bridge has to be blown up ( if that makes any sense).
I wouldn't have been able to say that a few years ago.

 

[Gimpy]

Accepting that realization has allowed me to look at people through a wider, more compassionate lens. I'm not saying I can do this with EVERYBODY, because with some people, it just seems much harder to do.
It's not an easy thing ( for me). But others have shown me it CAN be done and this gives me hope for self-improvement.

My folks are a couple of very wounded, dysfunctional people. I can't spend more than a week in their company without 'catching a mental cold'. That doesn't mean they are evil monsters. The truth is they're no better or worse than the majority of the public. Its a question of what can I, as a person, deal with, without falling into similar patterns of dysfunction?

Learning how to handle visits with my parents helped me learn how to manage splitting tendencies(to a point). Having a wide variety of friendships with people all along the spectrum of dysfunction, in lieu of having children, also works. It will take longer, but as long as awareness is there, and as long as the truth is more important than self soothing, it can work.

Awareness is one of the keys. What are the limits of your awareness? Where do you hit your nose on a wall? Where does your brain 'shut off'? Answering those questions is a start. Once that's done, its possible to look at someone else and watch...and learn whether or not they are aware....and over time see if its surface awareness, or deeper than that.

Just because someone burns a bridge, doesn't mean the bridge has to be blown up ( if that makes any sense).
I wouldn't have been able to say that a few years ago.

Yes, it makes sense.

When I outgrew and quit Christianity, many of my friends were shocked. The majority cut me off, 'burning bridges.' I never made any announcement or voiced that I'd gotten fed up and was done with it all. Until more than one of my friends got together to do 'an intervention', it never dawned on them that I no longer believed in the same things. During this 'intervention', my friends asked and were given the reasons why I was done with organized religion. These were very personal reasons that had nothing to do with loving these people as human beings and friends. They did not see it that way. When it was done? Two-thirds blew up the bridge, which didn't mean much to me at the time, being a clueless idiot.

This was over 20 years ago, marriages and children and grandchildren have grown up around my old friends...and I still consider them friends, though not close ones. Because I never stopped loving them for who they were and are....I just learned hanging out with them isn't going to work for long, on both sides.

Summing it up in a sentence is hard, but I heard this once and it stuck: "I love you, but I don't like you sometimes, and I can't live with you."

 

[luc]

Thank you all for this thread!

Recognizing is pretty easy: you may feel something like what is called a "body rush" first of all; sometimes it feels like someone has just poured hot or cold water over the top of your head. It's like a psycho-physiological shock. Perhaps the more intensely the person ordinarily experiences emotions, the stronger the feeling of shock will be. I'm a person of very strong and deep emotions and for me, it was/is quite strong even if the stimulus is relatively minor. Maybe a person who has been repressed severely since childhood, and tends to suppress themselves, it might be less dramatic. But the results will still be pretty much the same.

This shock is generally accompanied by a freeze response. That means you are also rendered pretty much speechless. Your instinct is to withdraw, alone, avoid being noticed while you evaluate the environment. But some social restraints may prevent that, so you pretend that nothing has happened until you can get yourself away without drawing undue attention.

Yes, this is my experience also. Just as an example, if my wife suggests that I do something in a certain way or gives me advice on something, this program sometimes kicks in and I act exactly as you described - wanting to turn away, be with myself, ranting... "Oh, you never trust that I can do anything well, blabla" - black and white. And at the same time I can really feel the chemicals kick in, the "hot shower", the pressing feeling in my stomach, sometimes also in my solar plexus. Sometimes, I'm able to stop myself immediately in such situations just by thinking "of the Work" and setting me straight with rational considerations (e.g. "she just wants to help me, and it's good advice, how silly is it to become angry at someone who's just helping you etc."), but sometimes I just can't stop it, even when I'm aware that this is just silly chemicals! When something like this happens we usually talk about it afterwards, say sorry, discuss the deeper reasons for such behavior etc. and this helps a great deal. It's more difficult with strangers obviously.

Also, I noticed that once I was able to catch this kind of "feeling" and notice how it develops, it gets easier to spot it in completely different situations as well, and it can serve as a great "alarm clock" - once I notice the chemicals kicking in, I immediately have to think of "the Work", external consideration etc. But to even begin to notice these chemicals, shocks are needed, as you said, and sometimes massive ones.