Laura said:
I was thinking the same thing. I'm gonna re-read some parts from ISOTM, Gnosis, and some other books and get some notes together. Anyone else who wants to contribute some data, jump in!
Stages in the Work, limited time for progress, and karmic debt along the path
- Thread starter Mikey
- Start date
I was thinking the same thing. I'm gonna re-read some parts from ISOTM, Gnosis, and some other books and get some notes together. Anyone else who wants to contribute some data, jump in!
A
Alchemie
Guest
Thanks for the post data.
I can see my life in it. It helps me to see my future life more sovereign.
I have often wondered why I had such a "sick" start to life. It seems to me as if I started at level two. Once, I got a response, that I have chosen it myself... .
I have experienced it from the beginning, that I run after the "exterior life", but I could not reach it. What an irony.
So far I have not so clearly seen how valuable my "sick" past is for spiritual development.
I can see my life in it. It helps me to see my future life more sovereign.
I have often wondered why I had such a "sick" start to life. It seems to me as if I started at level two. Once, I got a response, that I have chosen it myself... .
I have experienced it from the beginning, that I run after the "exterior life", but I could not reach it. What an irony.
So far I have not so clearly seen how valuable my "sick" past is for spiritual development.
It's difficult to know what ones "task" actually is, the lesson that needs to be learnt in order to go up a step. Especially since we rely heavily on physical manifestations of these lessons, like the C's said we don't fully realise that these lessons can be non-physical. If we were consciously struggling with something, it'd be a lot easier to understand what would need to be done... maybe I'm just in a state of non-direction.
It's for definite that you can't go back once you've committed to the path! still exhibit major mechanics of the machine of course.
Thank you for posting this 'reminder' :)
It's for definite that you can't go back once you've committed to the path! still exhibit major mechanics of the machine of course.
Thank you for posting this 'reminder' :)
D
Deleted member 9511
Guest
lilyalic said:
People close to me ask why I continue on this path when it sometimes reveals uncomfortable things. My response is that I can't unlearn what I have learned.
I read somewhere that the Buddha said that once one hears of enlightenment, and by that I assume not just the surface meaning of the word, but really hears it deep inside, it's a fait accompli. There is no turning back.
Still, transcend and include. Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.
Each step is enlightenment in it's own regard. relative to the previous step. It's so much different from the previous step that it can be confused with an end in and of itself.
Again referencing Ken Wilber, and what he calls Boomeritis Buddhism, the tendency at large is to negate the value of steps, because to say that one is at a higher stage than another is making a value judgement, and according to Boomeritis, all judgments are bad. This is the love and light crowd. It can also be called the Advaita shuffle, where one stops growth because it's all one, so we're all already there.
Somehow, I can't stop. It's in my blood.
I'm reading about the Way of the Fool in the Wave, and it mirrors my own path. Look here for a while, but don't stop looking, and don't be so sure that what you have found is the be-all, end-all. If the search takes you elsewhere, so be it.
That fits the stair-stepping approach. Don't stay too long on any particular plateau. The view may be nice, but there are always better perspectives. If one gets too comfortable on any level, there is the risk of letting down the guard, and slipping off the edge back to the previous level. Ouch!
Approaching Infinity said:
I don’t see this as confusing, but maybe my take on it is off.
If you think of the tree of life, there is the part under the soil and the part above the soil. Both are dependent on each other. The roots are generally descending and the branches are generally ascending. You have to dig deep in order to see what’s going on at the root of things to understand the way things are playing out on the surface so that choices become clearer. Kind of reminiscent of Jung’s dream where he went down into the basement. Also reminds me of the comments about William Patrick Paterson and his comments about ignoring history and the impressions that his development seems off as well as the C’s comment about Laura’s thirst for knowledge and digging into history being about ‘soul questing’.
Maybe Mouravieff’s concentration on the descending scale is about encouraging people to look further than just their personal history and to continue into cultural history and beyond.
s-kur
Jedi Council Member
If I reckon correctly the Ray of Creation begins from Do which contains full octave, then it's decreases: Do(-Re-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Si)-Do( next octave, where we're starts, we're on the top of "animal's octave")
Correct me if I it's wrong realizing. anyway I should re-read the material, I'm curios this subject
Correct me if I it's wrong realizing. anyway I should re-read the material, I'm curios this subject
obyvatel
The Living Force
[quote author=Approaching Infinity]
Anyone else who wants to contribute some data, jump in!
[/quote]
Rather than a linear progression indicated by Mouravieff, an enneagram could be a more appropriate symbol to capture the dynamics of the process.
For those who are not familiar with enneagram, a few quotes to get started. The enneagram is a symbol that was brought to the west in recent time by Gurdjieff. G said the following regarding the enneagram
[quote author=ISOTM]
"Speaking in general it must be understood that the enneagram is a universal symbol. All knowledge can be included in the enneagram and with the help of the enneagram it can be interpreted. And in this connection only what a man is able to put into the enneagram does he actually know, that is, understand. What he cannot put into the enneagram he does not understand.
[/quote]
What does an enneagram look like?
See attached image or look it up in ISOTM or on the web.
ISOTM contains a detailed exposition on the enneagram of the 3 types of food for man. It was a good description but I found it hard to apply it more generally. JG Bennett, a student of Gurdjieff, did some work in clarifying the enneagram.
Why enneagram?
(Skip this if it sounds obtuse and jump to the example). First consider a "linear" scheme of causality, that forms the bedrock of much of western thinking - at least before the advent of quantum mechanics. In this scheme of abstraction, A->B->C->D ..... A causes B which causes C ....or D follows C which follows B which follows A....One can complexify this further but essentially it remains a certain deterministic linear progression given certain controlled conditions . While science works hard to create such controlled conditions in the lab where environmental variables are strictly monitored, natural phenomena rarely follow such a setup. Any natural process of sufficient complexity is dynamic, non-linear and not strictly deterministic.
In the real world, there are "external" forces which cause deviations to an unfolding process which then produces different results than what was originally intended unless compensated for. One uses "feedback" mechanisms of various levels of sophistication to keep things moving in the desired direction for engineered systems. These corrective feedbacks become exceedingly complex to model comprehensively even for the simplest unicellular organisms - examples of naturally occurring purpose driven, self-regulating and self-renewing life processes.
So here comes the enneagram - which is a tool used to study complex processes at a certain level of abstraction. I would whimsically speculate here that perhaps the enneagram has the nature of a fractal - meaning it could be applied to natural processes at different levels of abstraction. The analogy is like using a fractal approach to determine the length of a coastline - as one recursively zooms in, not only is there a quasi-similarity of the structure but more and more details are captured with increasing zoom.
But enough of crazy speculations.
Kitchen example from John Bennett
Bennett used preparing of food in a kitchen and plotted it in the enneagram, illustrating some key concepts.
First, there is the outer process which goes like 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 from the perspective of an observer watching the kitchen
1-Kitchen is ready for work
2- Kitchen starts work
3- Raw food enters the kitchen
4- Food is being prepared for cooking
5- Food is being cooked
6- community enters the kitchen to eat
7-food is served
8-food is eaten
9-restoration of kitchen - new octave?
The inner process goes 1-4-2-8-5-7-1... and is from the perspective of the cook who directs the process.
To get the kitchen ready means the cook needs to figure out what kind of food would be cooked to serve how many people and what number of utensils will be needed to be brought out etc. So the cook has his/her eye of point 4 to get the kitchen ready for work. Then when the actual work starts at 2, the cook looks forward to point 8 where the food will be eaten. This is planning the meal - the cook would perhaps imagine how the finished product would look on the plate. Then the cooking process would begin at 5. While at 5, the cook would consider 7 where the food will be actually served. What kind of garnishing, what is to be served first, which will be hot or cold etc. Once the food is served at 7, the food is out of the kitchen. Then the process of cleaning the utensils and restoring the potential of the kitchen can start, getting ready for the future thus back to 1.
3-6-9 are points of contact with the external world from the perspective of the kitchen. The equipment of the kitchen, the cook and the kitchen boys make their entry at 9. Raw food enters at 3. People who are being served enter at 6.
Analogies
In the enneagram, there is the outer functional cycle which can be studied from outside. Then there is an inner "will" cycle which causes the process to proceed according to a purpose.
The kitchen with its quality of equipment are like the various functions in man - the instinctive/moving, emotional, intellectual, sexual centers.
The raw food that has the potential to be transformed is like "being" or the soul stuff material.
[quote author=Bennett in Study of Man]
It is nearly 40 years ago when I first heard that Gurdjieff - I think it was reported to me - in one of his lectures in the Prieuré had replied to the question "Has man got a soul?"
"No, he has only the raw material of a soul".
And then they said to him "But does it mean that he has nothing at all until he gets a soul?"
and he said "No, everyone has got a soul, only, until this is organized, it is like a kind of cloud; a cloud that floats about inside the body, and wherever that cloud is, there is the centre of interest".
[/quote]
The cook represents the "will" which directs the process of the transformation in order to serve the needs of the community which can represent the local universe.
Anyone else who wants to contribute some data, jump in!
[/quote]
Rather than a linear progression indicated by Mouravieff, an enneagram could be a more appropriate symbol to capture the dynamics of the process.
For those who are not familiar with enneagram, a few quotes to get started. The enneagram is a symbol that was brought to the west in recent time by Gurdjieff. G said the following regarding the enneagram
[quote author=ISOTM]
"Speaking in general it must be understood that the enneagram is a universal symbol. All knowledge can be included in the enneagram and with the help of the enneagram it can be interpreted. And in this connection only what a man is able to put into the enneagram does he actually know, that is, understand. What he cannot put into the enneagram he does not understand.
[/quote]
What does an enneagram look like?
See attached image or look it up in ISOTM or on the web.
ISOTM contains a detailed exposition on the enneagram of the 3 types of food for man. It was a good description but I found it hard to apply it more generally. JG Bennett, a student of Gurdjieff, did some work in clarifying the enneagram.
Why enneagram?
(Skip this if it sounds obtuse and jump to the example). First consider a "linear" scheme of causality, that forms the bedrock of much of western thinking - at least before the advent of quantum mechanics. In this scheme of abstraction, A->B->C->D ..... A causes B which causes C ....or D follows C which follows B which follows A....One can complexify this further but essentially it remains a certain deterministic linear progression given certain controlled conditions . While science works hard to create such controlled conditions in the lab where environmental variables are strictly monitored, natural phenomena rarely follow such a setup. Any natural process of sufficient complexity is dynamic, non-linear and not strictly deterministic.
In the real world, there are "external" forces which cause deviations to an unfolding process which then produces different results than what was originally intended unless compensated for. One uses "feedback" mechanisms of various levels of sophistication to keep things moving in the desired direction for engineered systems. These corrective feedbacks become exceedingly complex to model comprehensively even for the simplest unicellular organisms - examples of naturally occurring purpose driven, self-regulating and self-renewing life processes.
So here comes the enneagram - which is a tool used to study complex processes at a certain level of abstraction. I would whimsically speculate here that perhaps the enneagram has the nature of a fractal - meaning it could be applied to natural processes at different levels of abstraction. The analogy is like using a fractal approach to determine the length of a coastline - as one recursively zooms in, not only is there a quasi-similarity of the structure but more and more details are captured with increasing zoom.
But enough of crazy speculations.
Kitchen example from John Bennett
Bennett used preparing of food in a kitchen and plotted it in the enneagram, illustrating some key concepts.
First, there is the outer process which goes like 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 from the perspective of an observer watching the kitchen
1-Kitchen is ready for work
2- Kitchen starts work
3- Raw food enters the kitchen
4- Food is being prepared for cooking
5- Food is being cooked
6- community enters the kitchen to eat
7-food is served
8-food is eaten
9-restoration of kitchen - new octave?
The inner process goes 1-4-2-8-5-7-1... and is from the perspective of the cook who directs the process.
To get the kitchen ready means the cook needs to figure out what kind of food would be cooked to serve how many people and what number of utensils will be needed to be brought out etc. So the cook has his/her eye of point 4 to get the kitchen ready for work. Then when the actual work starts at 2, the cook looks forward to point 8 where the food will be eaten. This is planning the meal - the cook would perhaps imagine how the finished product would look on the plate. Then the cooking process would begin at 5. While at 5, the cook would consider 7 where the food will be actually served. What kind of garnishing, what is to be served first, which will be hot or cold etc. Once the food is served at 7, the food is out of the kitchen. Then the process of cleaning the utensils and restoring the potential of the kitchen can start, getting ready for the future thus back to 1.
3-6-9 are points of contact with the external world from the perspective of the kitchen. The equipment of the kitchen, the cook and the kitchen boys make their entry at 9. Raw food enters at 3. People who are being served enter at 6.
Analogies
In the enneagram, there is the outer functional cycle which can be studied from outside. Then there is an inner "will" cycle which causes the process to proceed according to a purpose.
The kitchen with its quality of equipment are like the various functions in man - the instinctive/moving, emotional, intellectual, sexual centers.
The raw food that has the potential to be transformed is like "being" or the soul stuff material.
[quote author=Bennett in Study of Man]
It is nearly 40 years ago when I first heard that Gurdjieff - I think it was reported to me - in one of his lectures in the Prieuré had replied to the question "Has man got a soul?"
"No, he has only the raw material of a soul".
And then they said to him "But does it mean that he has nothing at all until he gets a soul?"
and he said "No, everyone has got a soul, only, until this is organized, it is like a kind of cloud; a cloud that floats about inside the body, and wherever that cloud is, there is the centre of interest".
[/quote]
The cook represents the "will" which directs the process of the transformation in order to serve the needs of the community which can represent the local universe.
Attachments
s-kur
Jedi Council Member
obyvatel said:
Thanks for clarifying with Bennet comments obyvatel. BTW, what article/book have you used?
I'm wonder if this description of "kitchen process" is "normal being" with inner clues, or...or what the bedrock of such sequence?
I think that each point of the eneagramm corresponds any of crop circles...In it's universal sense, I mean.
I've not read M so I have a few questions.
Seeing aspects of my personality has always happened in stages/layers, and has moved from terror towards something approaching acceptance/joy. Is this what is being described about this step, or is this slow reveling steps up to this point? Is this even over the first octave?
On the point of 'karmic debt' what came to mind is that once you do see yourself clearly and more objectively (or perhaps AS you see yourself more clearly, step by step), you can choose to and begin to act in a way that takes full responsibility for those who rely on you/support you.
The big 5 psychology books lay out how to navigate problematic relationships, so that you can hopefully give what is being asked without falling into traps/manipulation/feeding (imperfectly, so you will fall into them - but hopefully you'll notice and learn!).
The cognitive science books show how we lie (narrate) to ourselves, so again this is something else to learn to navigate - and this strips away our illusions about ourselves. The network is needed for feedback on this though!
So weather it's taking responsibility (as far as you can objectively see/understand it) for family (co-linear or fast asleep), group members (forum), or the wider world (SoTT) as long as the aim is there and you keep pushing your limits it seems this is the right way to go. osit
Data said:
Seeing aspects of my personality has always happened in stages/layers, and has moved from terror towards something approaching acceptance/joy. Is this what is being described about this step, or is this slow reveling steps up to this point? Is this even over the first octave?
On the point of 'karmic debt' what came to mind is that once you do see yourself clearly and more objectively (or perhaps AS you see yourself more clearly, step by step), you can choose to and begin to act in a way that takes full responsibility for those who rely on you/support you.
The big 5 psychology books lay out how to navigate problematic relationships, so that you can hopefully give what is being asked without falling into traps/manipulation/feeding (imperfectly, so you will fall into them - but hopefully you'll notice and learn!).
The cognitive science books show how we lie (narrate) to ourselves, so again this is something else to learn to navigate - and this strips away our illusions about ourselves. The network is needed for feedback on this though!
So weather it's taking responsibility (as far as you can objectively see/understand it) for family (co-linear or fast asleep), group members (forum), or the wider world (SoTT) as long as the aim is there and you keep pushing your limits it seems this is the right way to go. osit
Psalehesost
The Living Force
Approaching Infinity said:
What came to mind for me - no idea if it is correct - is what Gurdjieff speaks of, that conscious evolution is "against life, against nature" - that is, against the status quo (both internally and externally). It is opposed to our mechanical, service to self orientation, and opposed to the control system under which we live. A descending octave would seem to make sense if evolution is viewed in terms of destroying our old self and nature, and forging something new in its place. Or, as a process of death followed by a rebirth at the end.
obyvatel
The Living Force
Actually, Bennett covers the "transformation of man" in an enneagram format which is close to Mouravieff's scheme though not using the exact same terms or stages or the same level of detail. Here is an effort to locate the schema of thresholds in an enneagram following Bennett's framework.
The outer or functional cycle would consist of the following 9 features.
9 - Recognition of B influences from outside can trigger the start of the octave
1 - man starts to acquire knowledge. Reads books, attends lectures, workshops etc.
2 - man begins to learn how to do things - techniques, exercises, meditation, physical skills etc
In Bennett's scheme, stages 1 and 2 represent the outer or exoteric phase. There is accumulation of knowledge, a polishing of the functions carried out by the moving/emotional/intellectual centers. However, "being" is not necessarily engaged.
Point 3 is where an influence ( or shock in G's terminology) is needed if the process is to move from the exoteric phase to the beginning of the mesoteric phase where the being of man is engaged. Bennett does not provide a source for this. In Mouravieff's scheme, this is the first threshold which is crossed under a higher influence "C".
3 first threshold - "C" influence enters
4 - marks beginning of mesoteric phase. Here man's being begins to be engaged and can be prepared for subsequent transformation. If the exoteric phase was work on the functions, the mesoteric phase works on being. Bennett says that here something begins to happen to people and there is a strengthening of commitment. According to Mouravieff's scheme, here personality (functions) can be developed to a high degree. From the inner or "will cycle" from the perspective of the teacher or overseer of the process, 4 is connected to 1.
5 - This is the stage which involves the individual will according to Bennett. If at 4 the being was being prepared for "cooking", 5 is the stage where fire is added and the cooking or transformation of being is in full swing. This stage is characterized by conscious suffering. Man comes face to face with himself, in all the unpleasant and terrifying details. He would have constated his life's problems earlier, but now he may become acutely aware of his karmic/inherited burdens and the need to "pay for his arising". The movement from 4 to 5 of the mesoteric phase perhaps involves a movement from being efforts to being suffering.
6 - second threshold, dying to oneself, Work as conscious shock
7 - this marks the beginning of the esoteric phase. Here man is "born again" and is surrendered to the higher will. He is now a conscious servant to the Work.
8 - Bennett designates point 8 as the higher purpose that the specific branch of Work is to serve. Perhaps this is where man becomes fully conscious of his destined mission which merges with the Work purpose. Unless embodied by conscious beings, Work cannot be realized in the specific realm under consideration.
Much more can be said on this with corrections and refinements - but this is what I have at the moment.
Fwiw
The outer or functional cycle would consist of the following 9 features.
9 - Recognition of B influences from outside can trigger the start of the octave
1 - man starts to acquire knowledge. Reads books, attends lectures, workshops etc.
2 - man begins to learn how to do things - techniques, exercises, meditation, physical skills etc
In Bennett's scheme, stages 1 and 2 represent the outer or exoteric phase. There is accumulation of knowledge, a polishing of the functions carried out by the moving/emotional/intellectual centers. However, "being" is not necessarily engaged.
Point 3 is where an influence ( or shock in G's terminology) is needed if the process is to move from the exoteric phase to the beginning of the mesoteric phase where the being of man is engaged. Bennett does not provide a source for this. In Mouravieff's scheme, this is the first threshold which is crossed under a higher influence "C".
3 first threshold - "C" influence enters
4 - marks beginning of mesoteric phase. Here man's being begins to be engaged and can be prepared for subsequent transformation. If the exoteric phase was work on the functions, the mesoteric phase works on being. Bennett says that here something begins to happen to people and there is a strengthening of commitment. According to Mouravieff's scheme, here personality (functions) can be developed to a high degree. From the inner or "will cycle" from the perspective of the teacher or overseer of the process, 4 is connected to 1.
5 - This is the stage which involves the individual will according to Bennett. If at 4 the being was being prepared for "cooking", 5 is the stage where fire is added and the cooking or transformation of being is in full swing. This stage is characterized by conscious suffering. Man comes face to face with himself, in all the unpleasant and terrifying details. He would have constated his life's problems earlier, but now he may become acutely aware of his karmic/inherited burdens and the need to "pay for his arising". The movement from 4 to 5 of the mesoteric phase perhaps involves a movement from being efforts to being suffering.
6 - second threshold, dying to oneself, Work as conscious shock
7 - this marks the beginning of the esoteric phase. Here man is "born again" and is surrendered to the higher will. He is now a conscious servant to the Work.
8 - Bennett designates point 8 as the higher purpose that the specific branch of Work is to serve. Perhaps this is where man becomes fully conscious of his destined mission which merges with the Work purpose. Unless embodied by conscious beings, Work cannot be realized in the specific realm under consideration.
Much more can be said on this with corrections and refinements - but this is what I have at the moment.
Fwiw
Martfotai
Padawan Learner
obyvatel said:
Why do you diminish your insights by calling them 'crazy speculations'? I understand that wiseacring is frowned upon but here you've hit the nail on the head. In your last post, you conclude with a FWIW (for what it's worth) and I'll tell you (since, perhaps, your buffers prohibit you from a genuine self-assessment) that it's worth a considerable sum, especially to your own development, but only if it's valued as such.
I don't want to 'deflect' too much from the OP, so instead I will quote Beelzebub's Tales and ISoTM, because I think they may apply:
In Search of the Miraculous said:
These 'definite' limits he is referring to are a property of the different densities of matter/energy of each of the worlds in the Ray of Creation (i.e. an 'atom' of World 96, will contain a whole octave of notes of World 48, a note of which will contain a whole octave from World 24, and so on, but only until World 1 -- Unity).
Beelzebub's Tales said:
Why I said you hit the nail on the head is because an enneagram can NOT be taken as a straight line, rolled out in the way that Mouravieff has above. It is a symbol of recursion in which each 'note' is part of another eternal process, all of which intersect each other point, in time, much like a folk dance where everyone eventually locks elbows with everyone else. In fact, Gurdjieff said the enneagram could ONLY be understood through movement, for it was a living symbol.
Looking a diagrams such as the one above can be useful if we recognize that it's a partial interpretation, a metaphor, and every metaphor has it's limits. Definite limits.
obyvatel
The Living Force
The following is my current understanding of the unfolding of the octave based on things I have experienced, read, observed and intuited. Especially for those new to the Work, please take the following as a perspective with a large proverbial "grain of salt".
Stage 1 and 2: People can enter stages 1 and 2 either due to
- being disappointed with life, having been through some degree of bankruptcy,
- an appeal for novelty and curiosity (especially in this day where stimulation is widely sought after)
- or a combination of such factors.
These are the exoteric stages of "trying things out". There are benefits derivable from these stages. If one is diligent and finds objectively useful books to read and exercises to practice, then their personality develops. The social coping skills improve and one can gain more insight and control over emotions from following meditation practices as well as discussing life issues and feelings. One can get such benefits from good psychological therapy or analysis as well as interacting here in the forum, practicing EE etc. One can learn to use the bodies better - like learning yoga, martial arts etc. In the context of the forum, it would be following good dietary practices, cold showers etc. One can significantly expand their views of the real world - like reading SOTT and following discussions on topics related to science, psychology, history, the paranormal phenomena etc. Thus the different centers of the personality as defined in 4th Way literature (moving/instinctive, feeling, thinking) can get nourishment.
3 is the place of the first shock where things can shift. As stated earlier, what Mouravieff writes can be interpreted by the saying "when the student is ready, the teacher appears". The first threshold is crossed under the tutelage of a person of higher development. This follows the tried and tested traditional model of spiritual development. Another possibility, not independent of the first, can be that there is some internal shift that takes place in man due to a combination of external circumstances and a free will choice in response to those circumstances. It can take various forms and may not necessarily be dramatic and easily discernible to an outside observer. It can be a simple act of commitment which represents a big shift in the subjective inner world of a person. Another person can perform the same act externally, but it may not represent any significant inner shift. So if someone wants to study this purely from an externally visible behavior perspective, in order to set up a clear "checklist", he could be misled.
There is another aspect of 3 which I believe can be pertinent and related to the previous paragraph. I think it is possible for a teacher/person of higher development to carry a person across the first threshold at 3. It is difficult for me to explain this phenomenon in a nuts and bolts form - but based on what I have read primarily about Gurdjieff and also observed/intuited, there is a certain energetic connection that can be set up where a teacher can lend his/her energy to a student which makes this internal shift in the latter possible. Gurdjieff could have done this with a few of his students. It is possible that in such cases, if the student is not able to make the next steps, there is an energetic repercussion in addition to the more tangible setback effects on the overall aim. "Carrying" the person across could be lending what Gurdjieff called "hanbledzoin" (blood of the astral body) or in general extra attention and effort to bring about a deeper conviction and commitment in the recipient. This may not be intentional - in the sense of trying to influence a conviction - either. Genuine teachers with connection to the so called esoteric center can have an energetic presence that can produce such changes in people to whom he/she places special attention. If this makes sense, it is something to be aware of - osit. A potential pitfall in such a situation is that a person moves on to stage 4 but does not have enough internal "stuff" to suffer the trials and tribulations that usually follow especially in stage 5. This could lead to more suffering for all concerned than was perhaps necessary or useful. Esoteric "lore" concerning the 3 traditional Ways (fakir/monk/yogi) indicate long periods of testing of commitment before getting accepted in the inner/mesoteric circle. It is possible that such an approach would increase the chances that the first threshold is crossed without borrowing of energies.
People can serve the overall purpose of the specific branch of Work in stage 8 under way through their efforts in stage 2. This is indicated through the connection between points 2 and 8 in the enneagram.
Stage 1 and 2: People can enter stages 1 and 2 either due to
- being disappointed with life, having been through some degree of bankruptcy,
- an appeal for novelty and curiosity (especially in this day where stimulation is widely sought after)
- or a combination of such factors.
These are the exoteric stages of "trying things out". There are benefits derivable from these stages. If one is diligent and finds objectively useful books to read and exercises to practice, then their personality develops. The social coping skills improve and one can gain more insight and control over emotions from following meditation practices as well as discussing life issues and feelings. One can get such benefits from good psychological therapy or analysis as well as interacting here in the forum, practicing EE etc. One can learn to use the bodies better - like learning yoga, martial arts etc. In the context of the forum, it would be following good dietary practices, cold showers etc. One can significantly expand their views of the real world - like reading SOTT and following discussions on topics related to science, psychology, history, the paranormal phenomena etc. Thus the different centers of the personality as defined in 4th Way literature (moving/instinctive, feeling, thinking) can get nourishment.
3 is the place of the first shock where things can shift. As stated earlier, what Mouravieff writes can be interpreted by the saying "when the student is ready, the teacher appears". The first threshold is crossed under the tutelage of a person of higher development. This follows the tried and tested traditional model of spiritual development. Another possibility, not independent of the first, can be that there is some internal shift that takes place in man due to a combination of external circumstances and a free will choice in response to those circumstances. It can take various forms and may not necessarily be dramatic and easily discernible to an outside observer. It can be a simple act of commitment which represents a big shift in the subjective inner world of a person. Another person can perform the same act externally, but it may not represent any significant inner shift. So if someone wants to study this purely from an externally visible behavior perspective, in order to set up a clear "checklist", he could be misled.
There is another aspect of 3 which I believe can be pertinent and related to the previous paragraph. I think it is possible for a teacher/person of higher development to carry a person across the first threshold at 3. It is difficult for me to explain this phenomenon in a nuts and bolts form - but based on what I have read primarily about Gurdjieff and also observed/intuited, there is a certain energetic connection that can be set up where a teacher can lend his/her energy to a student which makes this internal shift in the latter possible. Gurdjieff could have done this with a few of his students. It is possible that in such cases, if the student is not able to make the next steps, there is an energetic repercussion in addition to the more tangible setback effects on the overall aim. "Carrying" the person across could be lending what Gurdjieff called "hanbledzoin" (blood of the astral body) or in general extra attention and effort to bring about a deeper conviction and commitment in the recipient. This may not be intentional - in the sense of trying to influence a conviction - either. Genuine teachers with connection to the so called esoteric center can have an energetic presence that can produce such changes in people to whom he/she places special attention. If this makes sense, it is something to be aware of - osit. A potential pitfall in such a situation is that a person moves on to stage 4 but does not have enough internal "stuff" to suffer the trials and tribulations that usually follow especially in stage 5. This could lead to more suffering for all concerned than was perhaps necessary or useful. Esoteric "lore" concerning the 3 traditional Ways (fakir/monk/yogi) indicate long periods of testing of commitment before getting accepted in the inner/mesoteric circle. It is possible that such an approach would increase the chances that the first threshold is crossed without borrowing of energies.
People can serve the overall purpose of the specific branch of Work in stage 8 under way through their efforts in stage 2. This is indicated through the connection between points 2 and 8 in the enneagram.
D
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Psalehesost said:
Inertia. Things just tend to keep going in the same direction unless another force comes along change the course. So many references on it and in many areas of interest. The term used in spiritual context refers to many different conditions where growth is hindered. Religious fundamentalism is a common manifestation.
