STS Seeking STO

Hi mamadrama
I can understand what are you going through and I certainly dont want to bellitle your pain or concerns but I just wanted to point out something.
Dont you think its slightly far fetched to accuse a 4 year old of being a psychopath?!

I have never been a parent and I dont have a slightest clue how much of a psyche traits you can discern in 4 year old human baby but nevertheles this statment of yours didnt sit well with me at all.
Could you elaborate and be more precise. Maybe I will learn something new
 
Just from my own personal experience, I can attest to the fact that you can often, and very clearly, pick up on the traits that are often indicative of psychopathy in a four year old. Of course, each case is unique, but by four years of age, whether a child instinctively feels empathy for others, or gets upset when those around them are hurting is pretty obvious. Also, the manipulation that mamadrama brought up as far as the coying smiles or distracting words or affectations (distracting from being held accountable for something, for instance ) can be red flags.

Again, all children can occasionally be manipulative or lie or even seem self-centered - they are children after all - but if the behavior is consistent then it is hard to ignore. It's also very chilling to see this in someone that age.

If you've never seen the 1956 version of 'The Bad Seed' starring Patty McCormack, you might want to - it's a chilling example of a genetically psychopathic child - granted she's a couple of years older than four, but you get the drift.
 
I, too, can attest to the fact that you can tell if a young child (age 4) is a psychopath. I could tell that my half-sister was a very "bad" person as young child, although at that time I did not know what a psychopath was. As I got older I did put a name to it, and it was psychopath. And true to my feelings of her being "bad" at such a young age, she is definitely a psychopath. The things she has done to others, including her own children, to get what she wants is totally disgusting. The sad part is, now she has very many believing she has turned over a new leaf. They do not understand that she will never change. She is just playing a new "game".
 
Thank you, Deckard, Anart, and Lynne for your posts. Let me just point out that I am not accusing my four year old of anything. I think I made it clear in light of his young age the possibility of him having NPD is just that - a possibility. But it is something I am concerned about and continue to seek professional advice about for my child. I want to do everything possible to give him the best upbringing I am capable of giving him. If you are concerned that I feel any different about him than I do my other children, rest assured this is not the case. He is loved unconditionally. But as his parent, it is my task to provide him with the best opportunity I can which is to foster his growth into a man with knowledge, compassion, and guidance. I can see how it would seem shocking for a parent to consider this possibility, especially from someone who has never been a parent and doesn't know the signs of this personality disorder, but I can tell you as a parent who has watched two other children who are now teenagers develop in a much different way and after 6 years experience with my four year old's narcissistic father, plus I have a MEd and have worked with many children, I feel I may have an awareness and something more to offer in discussisng this topic to those who have not had initimate contact with this kind of experience. Do not misunderstand. It is developmentally appropriate for the four year old child to exhibit many egocentric qualities but the ones we've brought up when discussing NPD and the non criminal psychopath (lack of empathy, overwhelming sense of entitlement, to name a few) are the flags for something that may go beyond normal four year old behavior. That is why I stay aware and on top of this. Knowledge is the best protection and unconditional love is required no matter what the outcome.
 
Interesting topic.
I want to pose the following question:

How should one engaged in the work go about raising a (possibly) psychopathic child? I can't just now imagine how to go about doing that.
Raise her like just as you would raise a non-psychopathic child but be aware of the "psychopathic" condition she has?
I can imagine how to deal with adult psychopaths or even child psychopaths of other parents. Essentially, you 'starve' them (i.e. you don't let them feed off of you). But how about when it comes to your own child? How do you apply prophylactic measures to protect yourself and also to protect everyone else she will interact with (or are other people interacting with your psychopathic child aren't your responsibility)?

Also, while reading through the thread, I was kind of reminded of the phrase that goes something like, "when you're given a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail". Though I'm not discounting the possibility that psychopathic traits can start displaying as early as 4 years from birth.
 
MIchaelM wrote:How do you apply prophylactic measures to protect yourself and also to protect everyone else ?
A very good question ,as a parent of a OP
child you can not simply walk away.This is where knowledge protects ,if you know
your child is OP don't try and "fix" that
just like you can not "fix"your pets tablemanners .You don't dispare if your cat
can not learn to sit at a table and eat with
knife and fork do you now?You don't expect
your cat to show empathy with its prey.
Love and enjoy your child like you would
a beloved pet but don't expect anything
"back"and don't expect the child to
change into a "human"of a sudden.
Also discuss this with him/her and siblings
you can even play games with them like :what kind of animal was I in my last life? Have a heart,
it must be pretty confusing first time round
in a human body.All that food just for the taking and all those sensual simulations.
I also think it said that OPs don't get the
preview and so get born as humans by
accident so to speak not by choice,but if you are souled you got the preview
and volunteered to be the mother of this OP
But at the end of the day we don't "know"
ether way and isn't one of the definitions of NPD someone who acts like a 4 year old at any age? By the way I am a mother of 4 kids and stepmother to1 possible OP kid which is 13 now . RRR
 
rrraven, I think you might need to understand that an OP is NOT a psychopath - there is a very real difference there, so your post is off the mark in many ways.

rrraven said:
Love and enjoy your child like you would a beloved pet but don't expect anything"back"and don't expect the child to change into a "human"of a sudden.
What we consider to be 'OPs' can give quite a 'lot' back - and, quite frankly it is pretty much impossible to tell during childhood whether a person is an OP or a person with the potential for an individuated soul. We stress that 'spot the OP' is not a game to be played by anyone here - the line is thin and blurred and the focus should really be on oneself and not others.

What is being discussed in this thread is children who display a pattern of genetic psychopathic behavior - which would be about 6% of the population as a whole. OPs, on the other hand, hypothetically constitute 50% of the population and in their unponerized state don't even come close to the destructive capability of a psychopath.

rrraven said:
Also discuss this with him/her and siblings you can even play games with them like :what kind of animal was I in my last life? Have a heart, it must be pretty confusing first time round in a human body.All that food just for the taking and all those sensual simulations.
I truly do not mean to sound harsh, but this sounds like a horrible idea. First of all, the chances of you knowing for certain whether your child is an OP or not an OP are so small as to approach impossible - so saying this to the child's siblings is incredibly misguided. Also, where did you get the idea that second density creatures don't have sensual stimulation? What is your understanding of an (hypothesized) Organic Portal? I only ask because what you've written here has left me really confused.

Hopefully what you've put forth here is due to a misunderstanding about the nature of, and difference between, OPs and psychopaths - however, in either situation, making a determination and then sharing that with the child's siblings, teachers, or anyone else is not only potentially dangerous but unempathetic - judgments rendered in childhood to others about a child tend to hang on for a very long time - so, at the very least, an attitude of observation and intervention only when extremely necessary may be the way to go.
 
I agree with Anart, rrraven.

A good general rule is to treat everyone as if they are souled unless and until they prove otherwise. Since the soul takes YEARS to "seat" itself or, as Gurdjieff suggested, "crystallize," there is no way you - or anyone else - can make a determination as to whether anyone has a soul or not, what you are proposing is shocking in its assumption and lack of empathy. One should never, EVER attempt to "treat a condition" that they do not understand.
 
Dear Mama Drama,

I had a 3 year long "battle" with a psychopath and he won the "war" in the end. I have a husband and 2 children (I am not being interupted because it is almost 2:oo am!) and this psychopath caused devastation to all of us. I had hit a personal and spiritual "rock bottom". I found that reading the articles concerning psychopaths on this site was very theraputic. I have felt different and alone too. My whole world view has been turned upside down, and I am in the process of putting the pieces back together. There is hope....hang in there. 6 months after my showdown with the psychopath, I have a tremendous amount of peace. I had been very "social" however I have come to the point that I would rather spend time reading and studying (inbetween diapers and sippy cups of course!) Forging into the unfamiliar is scary. "Familiar" is comfortable, but will not bring us peace in the end.

Hope this brings some encouragement to you......:-)
 
MichaelM said:
Interesting topic.
Also, while reading through the thread, I was kind of reminded of the phrase that goes something like, "when you're given a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail".
This was my original thought but as I said I have never been a parent and it seems people here know what they are talking about.

At first I was slighlty concerned when I read some mamadrama posts as it seemed to me there is a pattern I experienced myself immediately after learning of the existance of organic portals and psychopaths.
I went through the phase "of seing nails everywhere" ( whenever I had misunderstanding with someone I tended to dismiss the as OP) but of course there is much more to this.
As the time passed I learned and read alot more and but the only thing I can say is that there is still much more to learn about our non souled fellow humans. Like in any other case we have to be careful with sweeping statments.
 
This thread has taken an interesting turn. The subject of child psychopaths or OPs continues to intrigue me and I'd like to just share a little of my personal experience.

As I said, I was first exposed to this material about five years ago around the time my 5 year old was born. Psychopathy came up while I was reading the Adventures with Cass. series by Laura. This was a very stressful time for many reasons including still a sense of shock at awakening to my/our reality. My little boy was/is SO different from my girl born 8 years previously. She was such a delight in every way and, honestly, I attributed this to my "great" parenting ablilities. I thought I knew what I was in for having another baby, but THIS, oh, this little boy was not what I expected. I was just so completely exhaused. This child just seemed to need need need. One thing that was alarming was that he used to bite me while I was nursing. Regardless of the reaction I gave him for this he continued. When he got a little older (with teeth) he would even laugh about it after I'd let shout a big OUCH! This really bothered me since it had only taken one time to cure that with my daughter. Needless to say, I had an idea to ween him early, but he simply would NOT take a bottle or a pacifier so I did nurse him for about 2 years. The biting subsided, but he would still occasionally bite when I'd least expect it and laugh about it. He showed other disturbing signs as well like constantly needing attention, not being able to play alone, little empathy for others, ect. Anytime I tried to do anything for myself, he would scream or find some way to distract. While putting "my life" on hold as much as I could, I gave him what I thought he needed. As the saying goes "give until it hurts". well I gave until it hurt, and then gave and gave and gave him more. My parenting motto has always been "Baby them while they're babies, then they won't act like babies when they're adults." Discipline with him was extremely difficult (but I also felt extremely improtant!) and we've had to be very clear about boundaries and consistency. There was a time when he was 4 that my mother, who is a 2nd grade teacher, suggested that he might have a mild form of ODD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder.

Something clicked for him however when he was ~4 and I put him in Montessori pre-school. I have since decided that he is not psychopathic or an OP. Now that he is five, he is beginning to finally play by himself, he doesn't "need" so much attention, and he definitely is showing empathy for others and animals. He has become quite a lover, has a great sense of humor, and sincerely cares about people and animals. The role of big brother to his little almost 3 year old sister has become a source of great pride for him and he truly cares for her and is fairly sensitive to her needs and concerns. As an example of developing empathy, just yesterday morning he woke up very upset and told me he had a dream that his older sister fell off her horse and was stepped on and had to go to the hospital. This dream shook him up for about 2 hours. He was very sad and teary the whole time--and this was accompanied by not what seemed to be a need for attention, but he wanted to be left alone and not talk about it much. This has, of course, come as a great relief for me. He is a strong, intellegent, independent person with a tendancy to want to lead. He has recently begun to have extreme interest in our world as far as "who is God, where did we come from, where do we go when we die", ect. It's been an interesting ride, as I'm sure it will continue to be, and I'm now so glad that I hung in there with him and gave him all he seemed to "need" as much as I could regardless of whatever Dx I may have considered a possiblity.

Even though I've decided that he is clearly not psychopathic, it's been interesting to observe the extreme STS behavior in children. As the Cs say, we are all STS here. It seems that STO behavior comes later as a matter of choice and our role as parents is to help foster that aspiration.
 
Kel said:
This thread has taken an interesting turn.
Yes, it certainly has. Thank you, Kel for your excellent and inspiring post bringing it back to the fold and thank you Amanecer for your sweet encouragement.
Unfortunately, I feel that before I can continue our discussion, I must take it in another direction temporarily. This is because I am struggling with the presumptuous nature and clear lack of discernment that has characterized some of the previous posts in an arena dedicated to the Work. I thank you, Laura and Anart for shining the light but perhaps some of us would benefit from a reflection of what the Work is? There are several good threads on this topic if you check the index. I recommend: The Role of Meditation in the Work, Personal Steps Toward STO Polarization, and Fourth Way, Third Eye, and the Cassies.
I found some particularly relevant Gurdjieff quotes by Laura in the Personal Steps thread that I would like to offer in part:
Laura said:
How can we recognize people who are able to come to the work?" asked one of those present.

"How to recognize them is another question," said G. "To do this it is necessary to a certain extent 'to be.' But before speaking of this we must establish what kind of people are able to come to the work and what kind are not able.

"You must understand that a man should have, first, a certain preparation, certain luggage. He should know what it is possible to know through ordinary channels about the ideas of esotericism, about hidden knowledge, about possibilities of the inner evolution of man, and so on. What I mean is that these ideas ought not to appear to him as something entirely new. Otherwise it is difficult to speak to him.

"It is useful also if he has at least some scientific or philosophical preparation.

"If a man has a good knowledge of religion, this can also be useful. But if he is tied to religious forms and has no understanding of their essence, he will find it very difficult.

"In general, if a man knows but little, has read but little, has thought but little, it is difficult to talk to him.

"If he has a good essence there is another way for him without any talks at all, but in this case he has to be obedient, he has to give up his will. And he has to come to this also in some way or other.

"It can be said that there is one general rule for everybody. In order to approach this system seriously, people must be disappointed, first of all in themselves, that is to say, in their powers, and secondly in all the old ways.

"A man cannot feel what is most valuable in the system unless he is disappointed in what he has been doing, disappointed in what he has been searching for ...


"So that, no matter what he used to do before, no matter what used to interest him, if a man has arrived at this state of disappointment in ways that are possible and accessible, it is worth while speaking to him about our system and then he may come to the work.

"But if he continues to think that he is able to find anything on his former way, or that he has not as yet tried all the ways, or that he can, by himself, find anything or do anything, it means that he is not ready.

"I do not mean that he must throw up everything he used to do before. This is entirely unnecessary.

"On the contrary, it is often even better if he continues to do what he used to do. But he must realize that it is only a profession, or a habit, or a necessity. In this case it is another matter, he will then be able not to 'identify'.

'There are still other categories which are no good but we will speak of them later. In the meantime remember one thing only: A man must be sufficiently disappointed in ordinary ways and he must at the same time think or be able to accept the idea that there may be something - somewhere.

"If you should speak to such a man, he might discern the flavor of truth in what you say no matter how clumsily you might speak. But if you should speak to a man who is convinced about something else, everything you say will sound absurd to him and he will never even listen to you seriously. It is not worth while wasting time on him.

"This system is for those who have already sought and have burned themselves. Those who have not sought and who are not seeking do not need it. And those who have not yet burned themselves do not need it either."

"But this is not what people begin with," said one of our company. "They ask: Do we admit the existence of the ether? Or how do we look on evolution? Or why do we not believe in progress? Or why do we not think that people can and should organize life on the basis of justice and the common good? And things of this sort."

"All questions are good," said G., "and you can begin from any question if only it is sincere. You understand that what I mean is that this very question about ether or about progress or about the common good could be asked by a man simply in order to say something, or to repeat what someone else has said or what he has read in some book, and on the other hand he could ask it because this is the question with which he aches. If it is an aching question for him you can give him an answer and you can bring him to the system through any question whatever. But it is necessary for the question to be an aching one."
If you'd like to read G's quote in its entirety which I highly recommend, please go to the thread. I apologize for my lack of technical savvy which prevents me from providing the link within this thread. :)

So if we are here and aching and able to do the Work, let's do it in the spirit of mindful humility! Yes?
 
Who the hell are Hatfield and McCoy?

Moonwalker ... here's my reply.

The 'Hatfield's and Mc Coy's' is a generalized frame of reference that can apply to any significant comparison between polarized points ('points' is an old reference for now 'spheres' must be referenced) or frames of reference, in any dimensional hierarchy. The Principal of Correspondence (as above, so below; as below, so above) can be used to gives one the means of solving any dark paradox or secrets of nature (ignorance). We can understand much while entering levels of higher frequency, but applying those simplest of perceived truths. This principle is of the greatest help while "walking among the giants" ... a term which refers to how we can slip from one reality into a higher dimension or simply overzones of a given one which you are in.... which is currently now happening. When your consciousness has moved itself out of its limited space so you can sense those around you who are also aware, then they too will be aware of your consciousness ... in a "highlander-kind-of way". "As clouds are large giants and massive. They all originate from the smallest moisture molecule of Earth." Often the overzones (overtones) are very similar to where you came from, but a general "passive easyiness" can reflect that. While there, it is important to watch and listen. If you however, don't use the "gifts" that you have acquired to teach and help others along this path, then you will find yourself dropping back down the frequency ladder (if that indeed is your purpose). Many can sense, or are getting "hints" in the form of synchronicities, which reflect that truth of journeying into new ground. The language of dealing with these new frequencies which you have developed for yourself will be generally only for you, for you are indeed a unique vibration in the mind of the God / Goddess ... or dualistic vibration of the Infinite Is, Force, or whatever term one wishes to give that Infinite Living Mind ("A rose is a rose, is a rose, by whatever name you call it). The communication used in bringing those "subjective" electromagnetic frequencies into our atmosphere (the aka- body of earth) to finally dwell in this physical, "objective" third dimensional reality is the "language that we all must learn to cope with as the frequency of the Earth changes. The vibration of the old earth (13,000 years ago) set in motion all entities to that past vibration. We are born in the old, but we are living in the new. But unfortunately or fortunately the new vibration is that of harmony or disharmony. Does one go with the old vibration or accept the new vibration? That is the question! It then sets us in motion to feel the "emotion of life." The more that you believe that "gift" that you are given, then the more energy you shall receive to accomplish your 'life purpose.'

Anyway ... Back to the 'Hatfield's and Mc Coy's. One can reference talking on the body, mind, or spirit level. We have a "trinity" which religions refer to Father, Son, Holy Spirit, which correspond to the universal mind and subconscious, conscious, and superconscious levels:

Spirit, ether, superconscious mind = Father, now Father / Mother.
Mind, thought, conscious mind = Holy Spirit, which is allows in you, however you must become aware of it! When you are engulfed in and out of this "light" you are the most blissfull and satisfied, that you have ever been x 1000. You become one with the Universal Mind.
Body, physical, subconscious mind = Son, He already died to be part of your subconscious mind. You must awaken that in yourself by bringing together the Kether, Chockmah, and Binah (Tree of Life teachings).

Divine Love (masculine, Tiphaereth, Son, ) and Divine Thought (feminine, Divine Pristis Sophia graduating from Daughter- pristis sophia)

However, we could take that dualist polarity to represent many issues. Everything "Is" and "Isn't" at the same time. When one does not look at both opposing factors when they seek truth," they are but looking for "half-truths." This article wished to seek "truth" by agglomerating two opposing issues in the Monadic Sphere. The issue of those whom follow the regulated issues of fundamentalisim state, that we are the children that exist beneath that God level, staying at the level of a child with those that are well on their path of growing the child to an older age thereby graduating each level of the Trinity to eventually combine with the God Goddess, Universal Mind level.

At the end of the day "A rose is a rose, is a rose, by whatever name you call it."

Regarding however, any Hatfield and McCoy issue, the recognition of the Principle of Polarity requires that the end members simply sit or lie down ... Relax, quiet the mind and take a heavy deep breath while you recognize "the middle path." We do it every night when we lie down and sleep. It's as simple as becoming conscious of breathing correctly.

(0:Ah - Ha:0)
 
Thanks for your informative answer, I'm not familiar with Kabbalistic teachings so it went a bit over my head. Are you talking about the principle of polarity and the principle of the planes or levels of existence. My basic understanding is the vertical columns of the Tree of Life illustrate polarity, and the horizontal rows of spheres on the Tree illustrate planes or levels?
 
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