Suicide

Smallwood said:
Thanks for your response Ana.

It's not really easy to change one's view on life. Especially when one has to deal with weird and scary stuff that comes along with being psychotic (this disease is attacking everything that I hold dear). But I realize that it is important to think more positively once in a while because life is never one sided and seeing things through dark lense is often caused by linear thinking. If we always thought linearly, there would never be any chance of change. Atleast, that's what I'm thinking about it.

Then how about making an experiment and set a goal to find something that will make you experience positive emotions? Perhaps this is something your inner child wants and also most afraid of? Feeling happy about something, about yourself, about something around you. It can be something small, like sitting outside on a bench, enjoying the sun and watching birds fly around and picking food. Do something that will bring a smile on your face and a bit of joy in your heart by observing these small things in the world around you. Maybe it will help you see that you are not that isolated as you think, and that there is life beyond feeling attacked.
 
I agree with Nienna Eluch that "Everybody is different and their tolerances to pain and suffering are different."

anart said:
If a person is at the point where they have decided to take their own life, that pain is not 'only temporary'. It is an all-encompassing experience from which there is no relief, thus the 'exit'.

True. And I hope that any one who has not already been there does not have to reach that point in order to understand it.

In the early 80's, I did reach that point where I not only considered suicide but was already set up. Long story short, considering my state of mind at the time I agree with smallwood's comment that "the usual ways to talk someone out of it are pretty useless."

If I had truly committed to the follow through and someone tried to "prevent" it, I probably would have "snapped" and who knows what would have happened then. I think what I needed more than anything, was some time alone away from other people's intense negativity, so I took it. Plus, once I got that time alone, there was that remarkable state of mental clarity and activity that came with the attitude of no longer fearing death.

For me though, once I had straightened some things out in my mind, I fully intended that somehow, someway, come hell or high water, I wasn't going to check out before at least doing one thing to make the world a better place for someone else so that they wouldn't have to feel what I was feeling. What kept me going was the mystery of figuring out what that thing was meant to be.
 
Smallwood said:
I was planning suicide before going under medication. In that pain you don't think about how your family might feel about your decision, and I think that the usual ways to talk someone out of it are pretty useless. I decided that I will try for two more years and then see if there is any chance for me. I will do my best for two years and see if the hope returns. After that I don't know what I'll do.

The decision to live two more years is hope, Smallwood. It is not yet, time to die.
 
Aragorn said:
From this experience and having talked to people who have lost their friends and loved ones (because of suicide) I would say that when you are deep enough in that dark tunnel killing yourself feels like the most natural and logical solution, once you've 'discovered' this option you actually feel happy about it.

I remember seeing the movie The Bridge (imdb link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0799954/ ), a documentary about suicide, some time ago and this was one of the things that struck me, that some people who had decided to commit suicide seemed happy about it.

I can really follow this logic but I've never experienced that darkness you describe myself, although I've been close to it. I used that experience to actually get some help going for myself, by plainly telling my doctor that I was contemplating killing myself and that that scared the hell out of me. It actually worked wonders because suddenly I could get the all the help I needed, as opposed to before where I was stuck in the bureaucratic medical system not getting any sufficient counselling or drug rehab or whatever.

Ana said:
Smallwood said:
A side-note: I was thinking today about how to feed my inner child, you know, trying to listen to it's needs. I was trying to do it in solitude and I wasn't going anywhere. But then a nurse came in my room and we talked by the side of this issue and it seems to me now that it's not the right approach to try to shut the world out when trying to interact with the inner child. You have to think in terms of what IN the world can bring it satisfaction. I hope that makes sense.
Maybe you can try to change the old school/life view for a new one, take this forum for example a school where you decide, you give and you receive, you are free to move at your own pace and you are loved, a school/life you are part of.
Yes, this is good advice, this is a forum where you are loved wherever you are in life. And you can trust that you won't get bullied here. When someone still tries to do that they'll quickly get banned by the moderators and their bullying posts deleted.
 
The Mechanic said:
I remember seeing the movie The Bridge (imdb link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0799954/ ), a documentary about suicide, some time ago and this was one of the things that struck me, that some people who had decided to commit suicide seemed happy about it.

Nancy J Napier in her book "Getting Through the Day: Strategies for Adults Hurt As Children" mentioned about many adults abused as children contemplating about suicide as a sort of fail-safe mechanism. I don't have the book at the moment, but what she said was that sometimes the feeling of having no control over situations is so overwhelming, to those people the option of a suicide gives a twisted sense of hope and control over their lives. It's like a comfort blanket, that if life will ever get really bad, they can choose to end it. Reading this really shocked me because this is exactly the kind of thinking I had during overwhelming periods and when fear of the future had a grip on me. Then I thought that it gave me confidence and strength to deal with the situation at hand. But now I understand that it was a confidence born out of desperation, helplessness, and victim mentality, where I was making myself feel stronger by knowing that I have a choice of death instead of realizing that all this time I've been denying myself the choice to live and live happily. Which is harder but obviously much more rewarding.

Nancy J Napier also said that even if it may appear that those people want to die, what they really want is to live, but to live without pain. And that's why they have to go through the healing process and realize that they have the power and strength within them to end this pain.
 
Keit said:
Nancy J Napier also said that even if it may appear that those people want to die, what they really want is to live, but to live without pain. And that's why they have to go through the healing process and realize that they have the power and strength within them to end this pain.

Wow. Sounds like someone who understands what it's like.

For me, the option (of suicide) felt like the last great act of defiance against the threat of total loss of autonomy.

While I was young, dumb and believing in most of the propaganda and social conventions, I was able to feel, but not quite conceptualize, that "means-end" reversal that I was living. I was constantly paying 'more' to have 'less'.

IOW, I thought that the more we work... the more we give of our time, energy, friendship, obedience, dedication, devotion, etc,(means)... the more we are supposed to receive of values like safety, security, reciprocal friendship, financial earnings, etc, etc (ends). But, we know that in pathological society it doesn't work that way. Instead, the more we give, the more is demanded, (as Gurdjieff points out). Everyone demands "more" of us. And what is the payment? The actuality of having less and less of what we believe we are earning until we are completely used up.

I could sense and feel all this but not fully express it. And it is a very painful condition to be in, as all my perceived failures in life happened to be rolled up in it too.

So, the suicide option seemed like the last possible way to have a say in the matter and the final rebellion against being a slave to pain - a slave having no other choice left that he can make of his own volition.
 
Bud said:
IOW, I thought that the more we work... the more we give of our time, energy, friendship, obedience, dedication, devotion, etc,(means)... the more we are supposed to receive of values like safety, security, reciprocal friendship, financial earnings, etc, etc (ends). But, we know that in pathological society it doesn't work that way. Instead, the more we give, the more is demanded, (as Gurdjieff points out). Everyone demands "more" of us. And what is the payment? The actuality of having less and less of what we believe we are earning until we are completely used up.

Hi Bud, I think you might have misunderstood what Gurdjieff was saying when he said that the more a man does, the more is expected of him. He was speaking of the fact that in the Work, one cannot rest on one's laurels - the more a person does and can do, the more is expected/required of him. The more awake he becomes, the more he must do because he is capable of it. In other words, to those who much is given, much is required. This dynamic never results in being 'completely used up' - it results in ever-increasing growth and awareness - expansion of Being. The more a man does, the more is expected him. For those who have done nothing, nothing is expected. I hope that clarifies that one aspect of things a bit, as it relates to Gurdjieff's point and the Work.

I agree that society will use people up, but that's actually the opposite of what Gurdjieff was talking about. fwiw.
 
Bud said:
Keit said:
Nancy J Napier also said that even if it may appear that those people want to die, what they really want is to live, but to live without pain. And that's why they have to go through the healing process and realize that they have the power and strength within them to end this pain.


While I was young, dumb and believing in most of the propaganda and social conventions, I was able to feel, but not quite conceptualize, that "means-end" reversal that I was living. I was constantly paying 'more' to have 'less'.


Paying more to have less. Less for whom? Maybe we should pay everything, having nothing-but lessons. Maybe there is no ending of pain, only a change of perception of the landscape of self-centered pain.

Maybe some who opt out are really trying to avoid the second death. Maybe 5D lets the dreams teach more clearly, with less noise, for a moment. Maybe those who have been there, and back again, find that nothing has changed, except the perception of the terror of the situation and the choices that increased knowledge brings (hopefully, with a better sense of humor).

There are philosophical musings, and there are hardcore realities, there can be a difference, OSIT.
 
anart said:
I agree that society will use people up, but that's actually the opposite of what Gurdjieff was talking about. fwiw.

I searched through my collection of G's books but can't find the quote I'm looking for. Now I'm not sure of the source, but it started out something like this (probably awkward) paraphrase:


Do one thing for a man and he will thank you profusely,
Do a second thing for a man and he will be thankful,
Do a third thing and he will simply take it
From here, you continue doing and then you can't stop because now the giving is expected, even demanded, and you find yourself in that downward spiraling feeding loop.
 
Bud said:
anart said:
I agree that society will use people up, but that's actually the opposite of what Gurdjieff was talking about. fwiw.

I searched through my collection of G's books but can't find the quote I'm looking for. Now I'm not sure of the source, but it started out something like this (probably awkward) paraphrase:


Do one thing for a man and he will thank you profusely,
Do a second thing for a man and he will be thankful,
Do a third thing and he will simply take it
From here, you continue doing and then you can't stop because now the giving is expected, even demanded, and you find yourself in that downward spiraling feeding loop.

Yes, he was talking about mechanical human behavior in that instance, and how people are mechanically ungrateful (increasingly so as they become accustomed and feel entitled to the gifts). That is unrelated to the idea that the more a man does (or is capable of), the more is expected of him.
 
World News

Government-Assisted Suicide Is Spreading Across the Western World​

by Zero Hedge May 24th, 2025 8:28 AM

Is it humanitarian empathy, or a nihilistic death cult that desires a legal rationale for population control? The legislative push for government assisted euthanasia in the western world is one of the most guarded topics in establishment media.

Nothing negative or critical can be said and all concerns are dismissed as “conspiracy theory”. The government run suicide apparatus is a pure and loving function of progressive society…and how dare you suggest otherwise.

This month officials in England, Wales and Scotland will be considering legislation to legalize government assisted euthanasia (End Of Life bills), with laws similar to those passed in Canada in 2016.

The legislation proposes letting terminally ill people end their life if they:

– Are over 18, live in England or Wales, and have been registered with a GP for at least 12 months.

– Have the mental capacity to make the choice and be deemed to have expressed a clear, settled and informed wish, free from coercion or pressure.
Be expected to die within six months.

– Make two separate declarations, witnessed and signed, about their wish to die.

– Satisfy two independent doctors that they are eligible with at least seven days between each assessment.


This type of legalized suicide should be treated as distinct from the “physician assisted suicide” made available in the US in ten different states. There is a stark difference between an individual going out on their own to seek a doctor to help them commit suicide while suffering a terminal condition, versus the government actively encouraging the public to commit suicide and helping them do it using your tax dollars.

There is plenty of room for debate in both cases, but without a doubt no government should be in the business of mass euthanizing the population. There is far too much temptation for the practice to be expanded beyond people who are already dying.
Case in point: Canada’s euthanasia system has been in place for less than a decade and already the government is expanding suicide guidelines for people simply in need of treatment as well as people with mental health issues. This is well beyond the scope of terminal illness.

Keep in mind that the original argument for government euthanasia in 2016 was that it would only happen in very rare cases and only for people with severe illness and suffering great pain. By 2017 after the first government suicide programs were put in place, officials were already arguing for wider application of the program, asserting that euthanasia could save their socialist medical system over $130 million per year in costs (this is one reason why socialist medicine is a bad idea). In other words, killing people is much cheaper than trying to save them.

By extension, it’s also expensive to treat people for mental illness and mental illness could, technically, qualify as terminal suffering. So why not offer them suicide options as well? Canada has made mental illness legal grounds for government aided suicide, but the law does not go into effect until 2027. That said, there are multiple reports of such measures being offered already, including accounts by Canadian military veterans with PTSD being told they could qualify for euthanasia.

But it doesn’t stop there. Canadian lobby groups are calling for the legalization of government euthanasia for children; people they refer to as “Mature Minors”. Such programs are currently in place in countries like Belgium and the Netherlands and there are efforts to do the same in Canada. In 2022, the federally funded Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada paid for a study which argued in favor of MAID (Medical Assistance In Dying) for “mature minors”, or children over the age of 12 that were deemed mature enough to make personal medical decisions.

In other words, MAID programs start out as suicide for the terminally ill, then quietly tip-toe out to the mentally ill, and then children who are ill, and no doubt they will eventually apply to mentally ill children.
We’ve seen this kind of Orwellian tip-toe before, but this is a highly sensitive and explosive topic. For decades now, establishment elites have argued for carbon emissions controls and medical treatment controls in the name of supporting socialized medicine. Government funded euthanasia is a natural consequence of these agendas.

Of course, the carbon pollution and climate change narratives are a farce (there is zero concrete evidence of causation between carbon emissions and climate change), and if socialist medicine requires a shrinking population in order to function then socialized medicine is a failed project that needs to be abandoned.

In terms of mental illness, it seems as though governments are taking advantage of people in moments of weakness and confusion and offering them an easy way out instead of a way to get better. They don’t want the public to get better, they want you dead.

It’s interesting that the activism around legalizing suicide for minors coincides with the activism to give children medical independence without parental oversight. The transgender issue and the suicide issue appear to intersect when it comes to medical emancipation.

Should Britain and the rest of the UK adopt government suicide programs like Canada, expect them to also exploit healthcare costs and mental health problems as reasons for more death. As of 2024, 1 out of every 20 deaths in Canada was a government assisted suicide. If they bring children and people dealing with mental illness into the equation, that ratio will skyrocket even further. This is not a rare procedure, it’s a social mainstay.

If the west continues on this path, forget about trying to reverse the decline in population growth. Get ready instead for a swift population collapse
 
World News

Government-Assisted Suicide Is Spreading Across the Western World​

by Zero Hedge May 24th, 2025 8:28 AM

Is it humanitarian empathy, or a nihilistic death cult that desires a legal rationale for population control? The legislative push for government assisted euthanasia in the western world is one of the most guarded topics in establishment media.

.....

If the west continues on this path, forget about trying to reverse the decline in population growth. Get ready instead for a swift population collapse

A friend of mine, his wife was in long term care, he visited every day, took her supper in, was wonderful with her. She had some health issue and went into hospital and soon the MD's were pushing him repeadedly to sign up for MAID for her, which he refused to do. Well, the MD's found another relative comfortable with signing the document and Warren only learned about it at the last minute. He and two of her best friends and her grandson raced the hour plus drive to the hospital, walked in and the doctors had already started the meds. The wife opened her eyes and smiled at her visitors and lived. She was a beautifully self-possessed woman even with having Alzheimers. A Native woman. She was kind of magical amongst the Alzheimers people at the home where I visited a friend often - sometimes she would speak a sentence of disconnected sounds with such aplomb and such sureness in what she was saying, you'd know exactly the intent and so did she.

I haven't gotten Warren on the phone for months.

The thing that stood out was how repeatedly the MD's asked for Warren's signature to turn her over to a MAID death (other than Rosemary living). It felt like the push to use ventilators or give more boosters during Covid, which some people thought equated to the MD's or hospitals making money. How could that work with MAID? I wonder if we'll find, down the road from a whistleblower, that the medical guys make money administering death directly. Or somebody does.
 
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