Switching from ketosis for a while

Altair said:
Eboard10 said:
whitecoast said:
I kind of had a funny thought a few months ago about trying to gain as much weight as possible, supplementing lots of fructose and sweet potato in order to pack on a year's supply of food on me in case the SHTF. ^_^ I wonder if, having prepared myself with being in moderate ketosis for a year and a half (with a few slips along the way) it wouldn't be as jarring for my body to change gears again once I actually need to have an alert mind again. What's a 2 months of fogginess compared to having a clutch fat supply in times of need? This idea is either ridiculous or genius. Probably the former, but FWIW. :/

Or, you can easily gain weight in ketosis by just upping your fat intake. A couple of months ago I started eating ~50% more fat than usual for a few weeks and after just a couple of days I noticed I was growing a bit of belly fat. As Gaby suggested you could also try increasing the amount of protein so that it's easier to readapt to ketosis.

If you want to gain weight on ketosis it's definitely better to increase amount of protein in your diet (it can be calculated depending on your body mass) with simultaneous muscle resistance training.

I noticed that even a little of muscle training on ketosis increasing my weight, but never try it for a long period of time, because I need to gain my weight. I thought that i would need extra proteins, but don't know how much and when it is better to consume them.
 
Serg said:
I had such similar situation one time, I drink some white wine (it contained 0.2-0.4gr of carbs per 100ml) and eat more pork that I used to eat, and I guess it was 200gr per meal instead of 100 gr. After that day I ate as usual on ketosis, but I have cravings and start losing my normal weight on ketosis. I was afraid of overeating proteins. I try to eat more carbs, but it didn't help. Usually I have 5-10gr of carbs per day on ketosis and up to 60gr of proteins that's why I thought that I can add more carbs. I guess I had to add more proteins…

Be careful with wine, despite its "low carb" content, it is toxic for the same reasons fructose is toxic. The liver does strugtgle metabolizing it and we need the liver as free as possible in its duty so that it will make much needed ketones.

FWIW, for all of those interested in this experiment, here is the relevant quote from Ketoadapted:

Adding in an “over-feeding day” (a day where you add 250 to 300 more calories of high-fat, moderate-protein, low-carb food) once or twice a week helps stimulate T3 production. [...]

In extreme cases, we need a non-ketogenic day a few times a week to increase glucose and insulin levels in order to help the conversion of T4 to T3. Remember, you can make glucose from excess protein through gluconeogenesis. This is why an over-feeding day with more grams of protein is my suggestion, rather than increasing glucose with excess carbohydrates. [...]

This event stimulates the thyroid. When you constantly eat a certain amount every day, your thyroid may start to produce less T3, the activated thyroid hormone. We do need some sort of energy deficit, but if we do that every day for years, our thyroid may downgrade. [...]

The reason behind intermittent fasting is based on the foundation that your body tends to burn glycogen from your liver, but there is only enough glycogen for six to eight hours. Once your glycogen stores are used up, what is left? Fat! [...]There are a lot of ways to add fasting into your life. For one, I suggest clients skip dinner once or twice a week. Maybe it is a day you know you will get home late and will be eating too close to bed. I like this because it stimulates the human growth hormone to be at a high level when you fall asleep. Some clients are so fat-adapted that they do this every day, where they stop eating at 3 p.m. This takes some adjustment. It is easy when you are a fat burner, but if you are a sugar burner and you continue to have a “treat” of sugar or carbs every once in a while, this is a hard thing to practice. [...]

Intermittent fasting should last at least eight to ten hours when you are awake.

Emmerich, Maria . Keto-Adapted
 
Altair said:
I wouldn't recommend coffee at all regardless of whether you are in ketosis or not. Coffee causes insulin response which brings you out of the ketosis and secondly insulin causes stress to the body in general (check the last C's session). Have you tried black or mate tea?

That's not actually true.

[quote author=http://www.marksdailyapple.com/coffee-and-insulin-fat-and-post-workout-meals/#axzz38zisHucb]
What makes coffee research so confusing is that a lot of it is actually caffeine research. You see, researchers love isolating whole food constituents to avoid confounding variables. It’s easier to get a definitive result about caffeine than it is to get one about coffee, because coffee contains huge and diverse levels of antioxidant compounds. If you don’t, and coffee has a health effect, how do you know if it’s the caffeine or something else in coffee causing the effect? That’s helpful, but most of us are drinking coffee – not popping caffeine pills. So, while caffeine is definitely one of the main active compounds in coffee, it’s not the only one. Adjust your interpretation of “coffee” research accordingly.

That said, both caffeine and coffee have been shown to exert negative effects on insulin sensitivity. Not on insulin itself, though. As standalone substances (without a meal to accompany them), neither caffeine nor coffee have an independent effect on insulin secretion.

But insulin sensitivity, the efficiency with which your body handles incoming glucose? Yeah. Caffeine tends to reduce it. It’s not necessarily a terrible thing, though, when you consider why this occurs. Caffeine increases adrenaline, which increases lipolysis – the liberation of fatty acids from body fat. The increased sense of energy you get from coffee is partly caused by the increased availability of energy in the form of free fatty acids. Of course, an increase in free fatty acids shooting around your body causes a subsequent – and necessary – drop in insulin sensitivity to allow you to actually burn the fat. It all makes perfect sense when you consider the entire picture, but it sounds pretty scary out of context.

Despite all the clinical trials showing that acute intakes of caffeine and coffee tend to reduce insulin sensitivity, the overwhelming majority of the observational literature finds that coffee is linked to lower body weight and protection from type 2 diabetes. Heck, heavy coffee drinking is even linked to protection against non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, an affliction characterized by insulin resistance. And although what I’ve said about correlation and causation in the past holds true in this case (even though it’s supporting something that we might like), the connection is undeniably interesting, especially when you consider that heavy coffee drinking is universally lauded as unhealthy and that habitual coffee drinkers are probably more likely to smoke, stay up late, and eat bad food. Perhaps there is a mechanism there (one suggestion in the NAFLD paper is the antioxidant content of coffee).

Part of it stems from the fact that habituation to a behavior affects the effects of that behavior. You know how once you’ve been drinking coffee for awhile, you don’t really get the “buzz” anymore? You still love (need) the stuff, but it’s not so much a stimulant as it is a normalizer. Well, the coffee buzz comes partially from adrenaline, the secretion of which drinking coffee promotes. Adrenaline is also a potent stimulator of lipolysis, the release of free fatty acids from adipose tissue. Since the liberated fatty acids are causing the temporary insulin resistance, and the fatty acids are liberated by adrenaline, and the adrenaline buzz is lessened with habitual coffee drinking, maybe the insulin resistance is similarly lessened when you’re a coffee fiend. Sounds sensible, right, but what does the research say?

Sure enough, when you give overweight, generally healthy habitual coffee drinkers five more cups a day and measure their “biological risk factors for type 2 diabetes,” things look a little different. Their insulin sensitivity not only stays the same, but their risk factors actually improve. Markers of both liver function and adipose tissue function were improved after upping their coffee intake.

What does all this stuff mean for real world coffee fans?

Moderate your carb intake when drinking coffee. Some fruit and maybe even a bit of sweet potato hash can be okay, especially if you’re glucose tolerant, but for the most part, stick to eggs and bacon with your coffee in the morning. And whatever you do, don’t be one of those pudgy carb-loading cyclists clad in spandex I see at the cafe quaffing coffee and pounding kruellers. That’s not a good combo.
Get up and move around a bit when you drink. Since that coffee has just liberated a bunch of fatty acids from your adipose tissue, use them! Go for a walk, take a stroll around the office, do some gardening, hit the trails, ride your bike, play with your kids. Just move. If you don’t, the bulk of those fatty acids will simply be recycled back into your body fat.
Remember that coffee isn’t just caffeine. It is a whole plant food/drink with hundreds of bioactive compounds beyond just caffeine, like chlorogenic acid, which may have protective effects against type 2 diabetes. Those compounds come from and are affected by the environment, soil, elevation, climate, and region in and at which the coffee was grown. Even the roasting temperature changes the antioxidant content and composition of the beans. The taste and health effects of coffee thusly depend on dozens of factors, and that’s why coffee has different effects on different people as reflected across dozens of studies. Coffee isn’t coffee isn’t coffee. The coffee that tanked those people’s insulin sensitivity in that study may have been a mass market blend from Starbucks, while the single origin coffee from a little Guatemalan plantation could have totally different effects (or it could be the other way around).

Of course, as the ruler of Asgard, father of Thor, and a mighty Norse god, you can probably get away with eating tons of carbs with your coffee (served in a drinking horn, no doubt).[/quote]

Check the original post for the links to the studies.

I would say that coffee is definitely something that needs to be eliminated while attempting to heal the gut or adrenals or certainly when one is starting to change their diet. And low quality coffee, usually loaded with mycotoxins from mould or fungus, should always be avoided. But in moderation for a healthy keto-adapted body it seems high-quality coffee be beneficial, in terms of encouraging fat-burning. Especially with 100g of pastured grass-fed butter blended into it! :evil:
 
Interesting on the overeating. I'd have thought you'd need to eat more. 250-300 calories more is just half a meal more for me. Would you still do an intermittent fast once a week along with two "binging" days?
 
dugdeep said:
Altair said:
I wouldn't recommend coffee at all regardless of whether you are in ketosis or not. Coffee causes insulin response which brings you out of the ketosis and secondly insulin causes stress to the body in general (check the last C's session). Have you tried black or mate tea?

That's not actually true.

[quote author=http://www.marksdailyapple.com/coffee-and-insulin-fat-and-post-workout-meals/#axzz38zisHucb]
What makes coffee research so confusing is that a lot of it is actually caffeine research. You see, researchers love isolating whole food constituents to avoid confounding variables. It’s easier to get a definitive result about caffeine than it is to get one about coffee, because coffee contains huge and diverse levels of antioxidant compounds. If you don’t, and coffee has a health effect, how do you know if it’s the caffeine or something else in coffee causing the effect? That’s helpful, but most of us are drinking coffee – not popping caffeine pills. So, while caffeine is definitely one of the main active compounds in coffee, it’s not the only one. Adjust your interpretation of “coffee” research accordingly.

That said, both caffeine and coffee have been shown to exert negative effects on insulin sensitivity. Not on insulin itself, though. As standalone substances (without a meal to accompany them), neither caffeine nor coffee have an independent effect on insulin secretion.

But insulin sensitivity, the efficiency with which your body handles incoming glucose? Yeah. Caffeine tends to reduce it. It’s not necessarily a terrible thing, though, when you consider why this occurs. Caffeine increases adrenaline, which increases lipolysis – the liberation of fatty acids from body fat. The increased sense of energy you get from coffee is partly caused by the increased availability of energy in the form of free fatty acids. Of course, an increase in free fatty acids shooting around your body causes a subsequent – and necessary – drop in insulin sensitivity to allow you to actually burn the fat. It all makes perfect sense when you consider the entire picture, but it sounds pretty scary out of context.

Despite all the clinical trials showing that acute intakes of caffeine and coffee tend to reduce insulin sensitivity, the overwhelming majority of the observational literature finds that coffee is linked to lower body weight and protection from type 2 diabetes. Heck, heavy coffee drinking is even linked to protection against non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, an affliction characterized by insulin resistance. And although what I’ve said about correlation and causation in the past holds true in this case (even though it’s supporting something that we might like), the connection is undeniably interesting, especially when you consider that heavy coffee drinking is universally lauded as unhealthy and that habitual coffee drinkers are probably more likely to smoke, stay up late, and eat bad food. Perhaps there is a mechanism there (one suggestion in the NAFLD paper is the antioxidant content of coffee).

Part of it stems from the fact that habituation to a behavior affects the effects of that behavior. You know how once you’ve been drinking coffee for awhile, you don’t really get the “buzz” anymore? You still love (need) the stuff, but it’s not so much a stimulant as it is a normalizer. Well, the coffee buzz comes partially from adrenaline, the secretion of which drinking coffee promotes. Adrenaline is also a potent stimulator of lipolysis, the release of free fatty acids from adipose tissue. Since the liberated fatty acids are causing the temporary insulin resistance, and the fatty acids are liberated by adrenaline, and the adrenaline buzz is lessened with habitual coffee drinking, maybe the insulin resistance is similarly lessened when you’re a coffee fiend. Sounds sensible, right, but what does the research say?

Sure enough, when you give overweight, generally healthy habitual coffee drinkers five more cups a day and measure their “biological risk factors for type 2 diabetes,” things look a little different. Their insulin sensitivity not only stays the same, but their risk factors actually improve. Markers of both liver function and adipose tissue function were improved after upping their coffee intake.

What does all this stuff mean for real world coffee fans?

Moderate your carb intake when drinking coffee. Some fruit and maybe even a bit of sweet potato hash can be okay, especially if you’re glucose tolerant, but for the most part, stick to eggs and bacon with your coffee in the morning. And whatever you do, don’t be one of those pudgy carb-loading cyclists clad in spandex I see at the cafe quaffing coffee and pounding kruellers. That’s not a good combo.
Get up and move around a bit when you drink. Since that coffee has just liberated a bunch of fatty acids from your adipose tissue, use them! Go for a walk, take a stroll around the office, do some gardening, hit the trails, ride your bike, play with your kids. Just move. If you don’t, the bulk of those fatty acids will simply be recycled back into your body fat.
Remember that coffee isn’t just caffeine. It is a whole plant food/drink with hundreds of bioactive compounds beyond just caffeine, like chlorogenic acid, which may have protective effects against type 2 diabetes. Those compounds come from and are affected by the environment, soil, elevation, climate, and region in and at which the coffee was grown. Even the roasting temperature changes the antioxidant content and composition of the beans. The taste and health effects of coffee thusly depend on dozens of factors, and that’s why coffee has different effects on different people as reflected across dozens of studies. Coffee isn’t coffee isn’t coffee. The coffee that tanked those people’s insulin sensitivity in that study may have been a mass market blend from Starbucks, while the single origin coffee from a little Guatemalan plantation could have totally different effects (or it could be the other way around).

Of course, as the ruler of Asgard, father of Thor, and a mighty Norse god, you can probably get away with eating tons of carbs with your coffee (served in a drinking horn, no doubt).

Check the original post for the links to the studies.

I would say that coffee is definitely something that needs to be eliminated while attempting to heal the gut or adrenals or certainly when one is starting to change their diet. And low quality coffee, usually loaded with mycotoxins from mould or fungus, should always be avoided. But in moderation for a healthy keto-adapted body it seems high-quality coffee be beneficial, in terms of encouraging fat-burning. Especially with 100g of pastured grass-fed butter blended into it! :evil:
[/quote]

Thanks dugdeep :) Very interesting.
 
Serg said:
Altair said:
Eboard10 said:
whitecoast said:
I kind of had a funny thought a few months ago about trying to gain as much weight as possible, supplementing lots of fructose and sweet potato in order to pack on a year's supply of food on me in case the SHTF. ^_^ I wonder if, having prepared myself with being in moderate ketosis for a year and a half (with a few slips along the way) it wouldn't be as jarring for my body to change gears again once I actually need to have an alert mind again. What's a 2 months of fogginess compared to having a clutch fat supply in times of need? This idea is either ridiculous or genius. Probably the former, but FWIW. :/

Or, you can easily gain weight in ketosis by just upping your fat intake. A couple of months ago I started eating ~50% more fat than usual for a few weeks and after just a couple of days I noticed I was growing a bit of belly fat. As Gaby suggested you could also try increasing the amount of protein so that it's easier to readapt to ketosis.

If you want to gain weight on ketosis it's definitely better to increase amount of protein in your diet (it can be calculated depending on your body mass) with simultaneous muscle resistance training.

I noticed that even a little of muscle training on ketosis increasing my weight, but never try it for a long period of time, because I need to gain my weight. I thought that i would need extra proteins, but don't know how much and when it is better to consume them.

Was the weight increase due to increase in fat tissue or muscle tissue? I was talking about the former, but I know the latter is linked with resistance training so I thought it'd be best to ask. :)
 
3D Student said:
Interesting on the overeating. I'd have thought you'd need to eat more. 250-300 calories more is just half a meal more for me. Would you still do an intermittent fast once a week along with two "binging" days?

Yeah, making variations in the amounts of food consumed stimulates the thyroid in a healthy way. Intermittent fasting is healthy by itself and it tends to come naturally in the keto diet.

As per Maria's suggestion of 300 calories... Well, we know how useful are calories, but I guess that your appetite will tell you. When you overfeed with protein, you'll reach your limit sooner rather than later. At least it serves as a rough estimate. It will be interesting to see what others recommend and/or how much each one of us feel good with.
 
whitecoast said:
I noticed that even a little of muscle training on ketosis increasing my weight, but never try it for a long period of time, because I need to gain my weight. I thought that i would need extra proteins, but don't know how much and when it is better to consume them.

Was the weight increase due to increase in fat tissue or muscle tissue? I was talking about the former, but I know the latter is linked with resistance training so I thought it'd be best to ask. :)
[/quote]

From my own experience, the quickest way to increase fat tissue whilst on a Ketogenic diet is to up fat intake. You can only increase protein to a certain amount before you're kicked out of ketosis so even if your aim is to gain muscles you would still have to eat more fats as your body needs the extra calories to burn. Otherwise you will start losing weight like it happened to me.

My 2 cents.
 
Eboard10 said:
whitecoast said:
I noticed that even a little of muscle training on ketosis increasing my weight, but never try it for a long period of time, because I need to gain my weight. I thought that i would need extra proteins, but don't know how much and when it is better to consume them.

Was the weight increase due to increase in fat tissue or muscle tissue? I was talking about the former, but I know the latter is linked with resistance training so I thought it'd be best to ask. :)

From my own experience, the quickest way to increase fat tissue whilst on a Ketogenic diet is to up fat intake. You can only increase protein to a certain amount before you're kicked out of ketosis so even if your aim is to gain muscles you would still have to eat more fats as your body needs the extra calories to burn. Otherwise you will start losing weight like it happened to me.

My 2 cents.
[/quote]

What are the benefits of increasing fat tissue?
 
Altair said:
Eboard10 said:
whitecoast said:
Serg said:
I noticed that even a little of muscle training on ketosis increasing my weight, but never try it for a long period of time, because I need to gain my weight. I thought that i would need extra proteins, but don't know how much and when it is better to consume them.

Was the weight increase due to increase in fat tissue or muscle tissue? I was talking about the former, but I know the latter is linked with resistance training so I thought it'd be best to ask. :)

From my own experience, the quickest way to increase fat tissue whilst on a Ketogenic diet is to up fat intake. You can only increase protein to a certain amount before you're kicked out of ketosis so even if your aim is to gain muscles you would still have to eat more fats as your body needs the extra calories to burn. Otherwise you will start losing weight like it happened to me.

My 2 cents.

What are the benefits of increasing fat tissue?

Altair, there aren't necessarily any benefits of increasing fat tissue that I'm aware of apart from "stocking up" in times of need.

The above comments refer to whitecoast's question on gaining some weight:

whitecoast said:
I kind of had a funny thought a few months ago about trying to gain as much weight as possible, supplementing lots of fructose and sweet potato in order to pack on a year's supply of food on me in case the SHTF. ^_^ I wonder if, having prepared myself with being in moderate ketosis for a year and a half (with a few slips along the way) it wouldn't be as jarring for my body to change gears again once I actually need to have an alert mind again. What's a 2 months of fogginess compared to having a clutch fat supply in times of need? This idea is either ridiculous or genius. Probably the former, but FWIW. :/
 
Eboard10 said:
Was the weight increase due to increase in fat tissue or muscle tissue? I was talking about the former, but I know the latter is linked with resistance training so I thought it'd be best to ask. :)

Due to muscle tissue. I start doing some musscle training because i have a feeling like my body asking for it and feel well after that.
I can't say that I ever notice the increasing of the weight due to increasing of fat intake. However I never have a strict portions of fat. One day I can have more, the another - less. I try to listen to my body needs when it comes to the fat intake issue. Also I noticed that there is a great difference for my body in case of fuel and digesting between broth, lard, salo, etc. and butter, cacao butter. The first ones my body prefers much more.
 
Gaby said:
3D Student said:
Interesting on the overeating. I'd have thought you'd need to eat more. 250-300 calories more is just half a meal more for me. Would you still do an intermittent fast once a week along with two "binging" days?

Yeah, making variations in the amounts of food consumed stimulates the thyroid in a healthy way. Intermittent fasting is healthy by itself and it tends to come naturally in the keto diet.

As per Maria's suggestion of 300 calories... Well, we know how useful are calories, but I guess that your appetite will tell you. When you overfeed with protein, you'll reach your limit sooner rather than later. At least it serves as a rough estimate. It will be interesting to see what others recommend and/or how much each one of us feel good with.

Intermittent fasting when you are on ketosis is easiest fasting I ever experienced.
I could not eat for 6-8 hours and not feel strong hunger. The only things that usually disturbs - diferrent smeels of food....
 
Maybe I missed it, I was wondering why you are intentionally switching out of ketosis?
 
hlat said:
Maybe I missed it, I was wondering why you are intentionally switching out of ketosis?

Hi hlat, I wrote about it in the begining of the thread.

I decided to switch from ketosis, because there is a very high probability I will ruin ketosis after 10-12 days. There would be a situation in which would be hard to stay in ketosis for me. And after less than a month I would be able to switch back....
 
I didn't understand why you would switch out of ketosis now when you are not yet in the situation where you might ruin ketosis. Also what kind of situation is this that would force you out of ketosis?
 

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