Tarot Reading

M

Marie

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Thought you guys might like to know this: turns out Ouspensky wrote a book called "The Symbolism of the Tarot", and you can read it here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/sot/index.htm
 

Laura

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I've been interested in the Tarot for some time now, but not as a "divinatory" tool, but rather as a code system. My experience has been that about anything can be used for divination from a regular deck of cards to just taking a walk and observing nature. At present, other than the C's, we only use the I Ching - and then only on matters of importance. By now we figure if we haven't learned enough to navigate this world without constantly checking something external, we aren't learning our lessons too well.

But, back to the Tarot as a code system. As ya'll probably know by now, I am always trying to look deeper into a matter so as to avoid as much "cosmic cointelpro" as possible. I think that the Tarot has been subjected to an enormous amount of this distortion and twisting.

Last fall we attended a conference in Marseille. Generally, when wives accompany their husbands to such affairs, the wife has to figure out how to entertain herself while lectures and seminars are going on. On this occasion, good fortune smiled on me. A friend in Marseille is also interested in our work and he offered to act as my guide in Marseille and suggested a trip to Saint Victors. (I took lots of photos, just haven't had time to make an album yet.) We spent about three hours there.

First let me share Axel's translation of a history of Luminy:

Origins of Luminy (Translation) " Extract from " Les 30 ans de Luminy " (Grand Luminy, 1998)
According to the " dictionnaire des villes, villages et hameau des Bouches du Rhône " (Alfred Saurel, 1878) Luminy comes from Lumen (latin) : the fire, the light. The spelling of Luminy has changed over time. In "Le dictionnaire de la Noblesse " (Derbois et Badier), it is spelled : " Lumigny ". Some other spellings were " Luminie " or " Lumini ". Since the XVIIIth century, the usual spelling is " Luminy "

Luminy official history brings us back roughly to 1000 (in 1005, a dowry including some ground fields located between Marseille and Toulon was recorded for the wedding of the Fulco (!) Vicomte and Lady Odile)
During the XIth century, Luminy buildings, where the chapel is located, were the property of the monks of St Victor Abbey. Later on, Luminy area became the property of a Cistercian order : The Mount of Sion. In 1242, an abbess enlarged Luminy buildings that got called Abbey of the Mount of Sion , it was meant to accommodate young girls coming from the Provence nobility.

The property is bough by the OlliEre family in the middle of the XVIth century. From this time, it is developed (wheat fields, oats, vineyards) : there were in Luminy excellent muscat grape fields and raisins for wine, given to the monks of St Victor abbey. You could find numerous fruit trees : olive trees for oil, almond trees, mulberry trees creating a long alley behind the œcastle , fig trees, cherry trees says a chronicle.

A 1754 map published by the Provence general government mentions the Luminy area.

In 1819, Lady Baudoin, OlliEre widow, sells the property to Augustin Felix Fabre for 107000 French francs. Luminy becomes the property of a ship's managers family : its destiny will be linked to the growth of the Marseille trade and to the limits of colonies expansion.

At this time, Luminy is a 1200 hectares property - of which 200 are cultivable - along the sea shore with vineyards, lucerne and cereal fields. Goats and lambs are grown, pine trees from the hills are exploited.

The history of Luminy is then tied to the Fabre family. When Felix Fabre died, the property is undivided. At this time a huge water tank (5000 cubic meters) that still exists is built in order to water the crops.

The surrounding is improved with lime trees, cedar trees, chestnut trees. The master house is enlarged in order to accommodate the different members of the family, but although it's called "castle", it keeps its original simplicity.
Note: this is the building that we stay in when we go to Marseille. It is a lovely villa that has been converted to a research insitute and guest apartments.

In 1918, the property is still undivided. It will last until 1923. Paul Cyprien Fabre becomes the only owner of Luminy where he initiates many works : renovation of the park, opening of a road leading to the Calanque of Sugiton, planting of Pine trees, oaks and Atlas Cedars.

Mr A. Aragnol, first dean of Luminy university park adds : it's when the 993 hectares 40a 10ca of Luminy were affected to the health and social security services (1945) that the destiny of the property totally changed. The plan was to build, after 2nd WW, a large hospital meeting the medical needs of the Marseille population. This hospital was finally built in St Antoine (northern Marseille)
This last remark quickly glosses over what happened. The property was confiscated by the French government after WW II because the Fabre family was accused of being "Nazi sympathizers." Over the last 40 years Luminy became a science park including research labs, teaching facilities and high tech firms in various fields like mathemics, IT or biotechnologies.

Notice in the above translation that Luminy is connected to Saint Victor's and also notice the interesting mentions of Sion, certain "holy orders" and even "lucerne". So, the discussion has a lot of curious connections. Here is what my friend - Axel - has found regarding the links between Tarot, Cassien and St Victor, the source is:
http://www.unicorne.com/divinatoire/tarot/historique.html and here is a partial translation:

Même la provenance Etymologique du mot comme tel reste obscure...
D'aucuns avancent que le terme "Tarot" dériverait de deux mots Egyptiens: Tar, " voie " ou " chemin " et Ro, qui référe " roi " ou " royal ": et qui signifierait " voie royale de la vie ". Peut-Etre s'agit-il de la déformation des noms des dieux Egyptiens Ptah, " Maître de la Création " et Ro, " dieu-Soleil ". Peut-être parle-t-on de Ra Ta, Grand Prètre Egyptien prétendu descendant des Atlantes; ou du Taroet, " celui que l'on consulte ". D'autres penchent vers l'origine tzigane, ou bohémienne: " Tarot ", pour ceux d'origine hindoue, pourrait dEriver du mot Taru, ou " sagesse amassée "; alors que pour ceux d'origine hongroise, il réfère à Tar ou Torok, se traduisant par " jeu de cartes ". On a aussi rapproché le terme " Tarot " du nom des textes sacrés de la tradition juive, la Torah; ou bien, du mot latin rota (auquel on a ajouté un " T " pour illustrer que début et fin sont semblables) qui signifie " roue de l'existence "; ou encore du latin orat (taro inversé), qui se traduit par " il prie ". Puis on parle aussi de Tarota, alors que Taro signifie " la roue de la loi " et Rota, " la loi de la roue ". Peut-être s'agit-il également du terme sanscrit Tar-ô qui signifie " étoile polaire " ou " guide "; du mot perse Tarok qui a sens de " réponds-moi "; ou du mot arabe TarlQa, qui se traduit en fait par " manière de vivre " ou encore de Turuq, qui indique " les quatre chemins ".

Translation: Even the etymological origin of the word remains obscure. Some people say the word "Tarot" comes from two Egyptian words: Tar, " way " or " trail " and Ro, that refers to "king" or "royal" and that would mean "royal way of the life". Perhaps it's a twist of Egyptian gods Ptah, "master of the creation" and Ra, Sun-God . Maybe it comes from Ra Ta, a great Egyptian priest, who is said to come from Atlantis or from Taroet "the one you question".

Some others prefer the tzigane or bohemian origin: "Tarot" could come from the Hindu word Taru "accumulated wisdom". While Hungarian roots lead to Tar or Torok, meaning "card game". Tarot is sometimes refered to the jewish holy book called Torah or to the latin word rota (to which a "T" was added in order to show that the beginning and the end are similar) that means "wheel of life" or to the Latin word orat (inverted taro) that is translated into "he prays". Tarota is also mentioned, while Taro means "the wheel of the law" and Rota "The law of the wheel". Maybe it's linked to the Sanskrit word Tar-ô that means "polar star" or "guide", or deriving from the Persian word Tarok that means "answer me" or from the arab word TarlQa, which translation is "way of life", or from Turuq meaning "the fours ways".

Les Tarots pourraient tout aussi bien être d'origine atlante ou Egyptienne; qu'aztèque, maya, inca, judaique, chinoise, hindoue, islamique. On ne pourra sans doute jamais en retracer les racines avec certitude. Néanmoins, un fait demeure: au fil du temps et de l'espace, chaque civilisation a enrichi son symbolisme de sa propre compréhension de l'univers. Grâce à ceci sans doute, chargés de sens, les Tarots ont pu survivre au fanatisme aveugle de ses détracteurs, à travers les siècles.

Translation: Tarot might come from many origins : Atlantis or Egyptian, Aztec, Mayan, Inca, Jewish, Chinese, Hindu, Islamic. We will probably never be able to precisely know its roots. However a fact remains, over time and space, each civilization enriched Tarot symbolism with its own understanding of the universe. It is thanks to this phenomenon that Tarot managed over centuries to survive against its opponents and to blind fanatics while keeping its meaning.

En fait, le Tarot est apatride et intemporel. Nul ne peut prétendre savoir exactement d'ou il vient; alors que sa présence est constatée depuis des siècles. Ses idées n'ont pas d'âge et sont aussi vieilles que la pensée humaine. Transmises par des images, celles-ci ont fait un long périple dans le temps, et sont chargées de symbolisme archétypal. En réalité, il est bien possible que les lames des Tarots aient été créées dans un but métaphysique: et mises à l'abri de l'ignorance des masses, pour réussir à sauvegarder des savoirs considérés dangereux à mentionner par écrit, ou tenus secrets par les alchimistes. Seuls les initiés pouvaient en comprendre le symbolisme, et le langage; et en transmettre les connaissances.

Translation: Actually, Tarot has no country or time origin. None can say that he exactly knows where Tarot comes from while its existence is proven for centuries. Its concepts have no age and are as old as human thinking. Those thoughts, carried through images, had a long journey in time and are loaded with archetypal symbolism. It is highly possible that the Tarot cards were created for a metaphysical purpose, and kept away from the ignorance of the masses, in order to save some knowledge that should not be written for safety reasons, or kept secret by the alchemists. Only the initiated ones could understand the symbolism, the language and share the knowledge.

Ainsi, une legende raconte qu'il y a plus de 50 000 ans avant J.C., des gens venus d'une autre galaxie s'établirent sur un continent, soit l'île de l'Atlantide, engloutie selon toute vraisemblance par le Déluge il y a environ 10 500 ans avant notre ère. Ces grands ancêtres supérieurs, dieux, demi-dieux et géants dont parlent toutes les religions, apportèrent une sagesse et des connaissances qui venaient d'ailleurs. Ceux-ci devinrent les premiers chefs de l' Atlantide *, et entreprirent l'éducation du peuple le plus avancé de la terre (les atlantes). En adaptant et développant sur Terre l'extraordinaire connaissance dont ils étaient porteurs, en éduquant la masse, ils firent de ce peuple le guide du reste de l'humanité. D'aucuns prètent aux légendaires habitants de l'Atlantide ou de Mu, et conséquemment aux Egyptiens - les appellations Gypsy, Gitan, Tzigane ou Bohémien sont dérivées du mot " Egyptien ", la pérennité du Tarot, il y a tout près de 4 000 ans: le peuple Egyptien ayant accueilli en ses terres, à l'instar des indiens d'Amérique tels les aztèques, incas et mayas, des émigrants de la civilisation atlante: ceux-ci ayant transmis leur savoir aux prEtres de Sérapis (dieu Egyptien assimilé à Osiris).

Translation: So a legend says that more than 50000 years bc, people coming from another galaxy settled on a continent called the Atlantide Island, that was submerged because of the Flood roughly 10500 bc. Those tall superior beings, gods half gods and giants that all religions mention brought a wisdom and a knowledge coming from somewhere else. They becam the first masters of the Atlantides and started teaching the most evolved people on planet Earth : the atlanteans. Through the adaptation and the development on Earth of their wonderful knowledge, through mass education, they transformed this people into a guide for the rest of mankind.

Après la destruction de la plus importante bibliothèque de l'antiquité d'Alexandrie en Egypte, la littérature raconte que les sages du monde entier se réunirent à Fez vers l'an 1 200 avant J.C., pour étudier des moyens visant éviter que ne se reproduise une telle calamité (la destruction de l'Atlantide). Puisqu'une image vaut 1 000 mots, on aurait donc suggéré de dessiner sur des lames le savoir des atlantes. Le peuple aimant jouer aux cartes, cette connaissance se perpétuerait donc à travers les siècles: jusqu'à ce qu'un sage, ou un savant, puisse en déchiffrer les symboles. Ainsi, les philosophes, mystiques, alchimistes, religieux et intellectuels du temps ont preté une expression picturale aux idées, qui pourraient ainsi circuler dans le temps. Ils confièrent donc aux Tziganes les lames du Tarot, qui l'emportèrent avec eux dans toute l'Europe, et même de par le monde.

Bien que fort anciens par le fond, les Tarots sont tout de même relativement modernes par la forme: puisqu'ils se sont propagés dans l'Europe vers le XVIIe siècle seulement. Ainsi, le Tarot serait entré en Occident au XVe siècle (en Italie et en France) par l'entremise des Bohémiens - gitans et tziganes -, qui firent leur entrée sur ce continent en 1470. Venus du Pakistan, de l'Afghanistan et du nord de l'Inde, ils transmettaient la sagesse cosmique de l'Atlande, et le savoir EsotErique et alchimique des Templiers. Les Tarots se répandirent donc au cours des siècles suivants, à l'abri des inquisitions du clergé et des modes de pensée autorisés et dogmatiques instaurEs pour asseoir le pouvoir des autoritEs en place. Ce serait donc grâce à l'initiative des BohEmiens, qui se prètaient de bonne grâce à " dire la Bonne aventure ", que leur usage premier, visant à transmettre des connaissances ésotériques, fut détourné pour l'usage divinatoire.

Translation: Though their fundamental content is very ancient, Tarot cards shape is relatively recent since they propagated over Europe around the XVth century. So, Tarot game would have entered the western world (Italy in France) through bohemians " gipsies and tziganes " who reached the old continent in 1470. Coming from Pakistan, Afghanistan in Northern India, they transmitted the cosmic wisdom of the Atlantes et the esoteric and alchemic knowledge of the templars. Tarot spread widely in the following centuries, hidden from the church inquisition and power-seeking, dogmatic ways of thinking intended to reinforce the power of the authorities in charge. Thus it would be due to the Bohemians initiative, who willingly accepted to " read the good fortune " that their prime purpose, aiming at transmitting esoteric knowledge, got distorted to divinatory uses.

Quoi qu'il en soit, c'est en France, à partir de la fin du XVIe siècle, et suite à l'influence bohémienne, que l'on commence véritablement à utiliser les tarots dans une visée divinatoire. La ville de Marseille devient alors, en 1754, un important centre de production. Le modèle marseillais s'impose, perpetuant la tradition de maîtres beaucoup plus ancien dont François Chosson (1672); et particulièrement sous la plume de Nicolas Conver, Maître Cartier. Ses illustrations moyenâgeuses ont été re-dessinées en 1760, à partir des bois existants, et à partir des couleurs des anciens graveurs. Ce Tarot, dit de Marseille, est d'ailleurs celui qui a conservE le symbolisme, les figures et les couleurs les plus pures, les plus anciennes et les plus traditionnelles. Notons au passage que fondée par Nicolas CONVER, maître cartier à Marseille depuis 1760, la fabrique Conver deviendra par mariage la Maison Camoin: une fabrique de cartes à jouer et de divers jeux, qui imprime aussi son jeu fétiche: " Le Tarot de Marseille de Nicolas Conver ". Dernier représentant de l'ancienne confrèrie des maîtres cartiers marseillais, la Maison Camoin reste soucieuse de respecter, d'entretenir et de transmettre une Tradition Authentique.

Translation: However, it's in France, from the end of the XVIth century, and due to the bohemian influence that people really started using tarot in a divinatory way. Marseille city became then, in 1754, an important production center. The Marseille model takes the lead, perpetuating the tradition of far more ancient masters including François Chausson (1672) ; and particularly under the aegis of Nicolas Conver, Card Master. His middle age drawings were re-written in 1760, from the existing wood molds and the colors used by ancient engravers. By the way, this Tarot, Called œTarot de Marseille is the one that represents the purest, the most ancient and the most traditional symbolism, items and colours. We should notice that the Conver factory founded by Nicolas CONVER, card master since 1760, became, through a merger the Camoin House : a factory producing playing cards and various games, that prints its favourite game : œLe Tarot de Marseille de Nicolas Conver , last representative of the ancient Marseille Card Masters Brotherhood. The Camoin House focuses on respecting, maintaining and transmitting an authentic tradition.

Par ailleurs, selon Philippe Camoin, le dernier hEritier des Maîtres Cartiers marseillais, de nouvelles donnEes historiques pourraient bien changer la donne sur l'apparition du Tarot en Occident. Grâce au travail de restauration du Tarot de Marseille qu'il a entrepris en 1998 avec Alexandre Jodororowsky, par lequel ils restaurent les couleurs et les symboles originels du Tarot de Marseille, ils retrouvent une structure symbolique qui s'était perdue au fil du temps; et, des dizaines de nouveaux symboles, dont jaillissent de nouveaux enseignements: tels, par exemple, la découverte de l'oeuf situE en bas de l'aigle dans l'Arcane de L'Empereur; deux serpents enlacEs aux pieds de La TempErance; de mEme que les Quatre ElEments dans l'As de Coupe.

Translation: In addition, according to Philippe Camoin, the last inheritent of the Marseille Card Masters, new historical data could change the situation about the rise of Tarot in Western world. Thanks to the restoration work that he started in 1998 with Alexander Jodororowsky through whom he's restoring original symbols and colours of the Tarot of Marseille, they discovered a symbolic structure that had vanished with time; and dozens of new symbols generating new teachings. For example, the discovery of an egg located at the bottom of the eagle in the emperor arcane, two snakes enlaced at the feet of The Temperance also the four elements in the Ace of Cup.

Ainsi, selon Philippe Camoin, " (...) C'est le moine Jean Cassien, fondateur de l'abbaye de Saint-Victor à Marseille en l'an 400 après J.-C. et qui arrivait d'Egypte, qui contribua à transmettre à l'Europe occidentale les enseignements secrets d'une doctrine fortement influencEe par Origène. C'est bien l'ordre de Saint-Victor, qui dans les années 1000, règne sur tout le territoire ou l'on retrouvera plus tard les plus vieux Tarots et les plus vieilles mentions du Tarot. Ce territoire, c'est le Nord de l'Italie, le Nord de l'Espagne et le sud de la France, territoire sur lequel fleuriront les cathares et les templiers ".

Translation: According to Philippe CAMOIN, œit is the monk called Jean Cassien, founder of the St Victor Abbey in 400 ad coming back from Egypt, who contributed to the transmission of a secret teaching broadly influenced by Origene doctrine. It is clearly the order of St Victor that, in the years 1000, ruled over the territory where we will find the oldest Tarot and the oldest documents mentioning Tarot. This territory is made of Northern Italy, Southern France and Northern Spain, the territory over which the Cathars and the Templars will flourish .
Additional information from Axel:

While looking for some information about St Cassien, I met a writer / historian called Bernard Falque de Bezaure. He wrote roughly 20 books about Templars, origins of christianism, UFO,... I started reading one of those
books. I found many interesting ideas :

- 26° change in north pole location leading to the move of northern civilisation to more southern locations

- a lot of references about Danan, Dan, Danae, Dana, Anna, Anne... for example a celebration during which druids were preparing a drink bringing immortality : Danae, the Grand mother, at the time of the full moon in the Libra, is in conjunction with the celestial esculape (The Dragon), she steps on the moon disc and goes forward in the sky, preceded by the constellation of the Leo of the Alpilles. This celebration is quoted by Ovid, it happens
14 days after the Sun enters Marduck / Mars / Aries, or three days after the Pleiades enter the helic sky

- description of man-made sword shape caves where astral journey were made thanks to the use of water, magnetic stone, windows oriented towards some specific stars.

- the existence of several Jesuses : Christ Ian, Simon, John Baptist

- several description of celebrations linked to stars positions (position of the polar star within the small bear constellation, Saturn and its two moons, sunset position on the 18th of August
So, according to this latest research, St. Cassien may very well have been the originator of the Tarot for the present cycle. The connections to the Templars and Cathars, and the idea that the Tarot may convey secret knowledge I also find fascinating.
 

Raintree

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Realmhiker said:
Off the top of my head you need to know is that a Qabalah tree is individual to each person. So you build this relationships according to your experience. It is an ARBITRARY system. Like anything that is done with numbers. Numbers themselves are arbitrary, especially when assigned to time as we have learned from the C's.
Hi Realmkider, All,

So correct me I am wrong, it is an ARBITRARY system, meaning that it is a system based on chance, whim, or impulse and subjective individual preferences? Or am I missing something here? Hmm, I have a question: what are some probable objective commonalities in this system between individuals?

Realmhiker said:
What the Qabalah becomes for you is a system, a sort of map by which you learn, organize your own consciousness. For example: as you well know, most people hear too many voices in their heads. Many reasons for this. Voices in your head are the voices of all your problems, situations, people's opinions and judgements on you, etc... your own concerns about work, study, love relationshps, hobbies, etc. So, as you know, meditation has always been suggested by many people as a way to over come the voices in the head, and the Qabalah is for me that meditational tool.
That sounds interesting, your mention of it being a meditation tool. Can you please briefly elucidate how it is meditative to you? In what sense is basically what I am wondering about. For instance, does it allow you observe your 'thought stream' and get to the 'root' of the thoughts by a method of 'boxing out', or say 'focusing' a specific 'portion' of the 'stream'?


Realmhiker said:
What the Qabalah does is organize it all. You organize your Tree of life, and you begin to see how everything has it's own place. So example and just one example because, like I said before, a Tree of life is personal: The bottom sphere or Malkuth, which represents the Kingdom, referes to the Earthly materials.
Sounds interesting on the surface.

Realmhiker said:
If you want a non threatening sort of texbook approach to the qabalah I recomend you read Will Parfit's "The New Living Qabalah: A Practical Experiencial Guide to Understanding The Tree of Life." I have read other books, some were written by students of Madam Blavatsky and that was not very good... although there is always good information if you know how to weed things out. Some of the most comprehensive work was done by Aleister Crowley in 777.
I don't know who Will Parfit or Madam Blavatsky are, but I recall reading something briefly from one of the QFG articles in the 'past' in regards to him. I think it was an essay done by Anthony Hargan in regards to how Aleister Crowley was into black magic and rituals. And we know how rituals constrict, don't we? So warning bells are going off here Realmhiker.


Realmhiker said:
Many people have question the validity of his work because of his excentricities and reputation, but many friends of mine that are more knowledable of the Golden Dawn said this was a mask to scare away people who weren't serious and to scare away the real charlatans.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Golden Dawn into satanic rituals?


Realmhiker said:
What Crowley did for the Qabalah was rather signficant, as she simplified the tabulations to the very essence of the practice. If you can get through all those numbers, angel name permutations, and other such work, then maybe you can have some serious fun.
So far, it doesn't seem to be my cup of tea since I am most definitely not in sync with any sort of rituals, or even more horrific, satanic rituals, to say the least! Moreover, what sort of probable or highly possible objective observations have you made with this system if it is based on satanic rituals!? Does not sound like fun to me at all!


Realmhiker said:
As with any information source, do be careful to weed out misinformation. I recommend the Parfitt book because is simple, straight forward, with not a lot of Mambo Jambo, and it encourages you to create your own relationships. A good way to start. Then if you are still doing it, you can work your way up to all other texts. I tend to have problem when relationships are forced on me. I encourage you have to make your conclusions. I never joined anb OTO group and I don't think i ever will, as many people that started this kind of work did it fr thr wrong reasons: to harness power for themselves. To me the only power we can trully harness for ourselves is knowledge; all other power is STS.
Well, I disagree here about your statement in regards to knowledge. I think knowledge is 'power' but what sort of 'power' is based on the context of its use. To put is 'simply', It can be selfless 'power' if it used to honor Free Will or it can be selfish 'power' if it is used to abridge Free Will. So I don't think all other 'power' is STS, but rather what the context of the 'power' is determines whether it is STS 'power' or STO 'power', or say STS potential use of Free Will or STO potential use of Free Will, if we exchange " 'power' " for "potential use of Free Will", or so I think.

Realmhiker said:
As I said before, study, see what you can find. Maybe your method will be completely different than mine, and that is VERY OK.
Based on what you have shared thus far, I rather conserve my energy for other practical tasks.

Thank you for your thoughts,



Saman
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Saman said:
So correct me I am wrong, it is an ARBITRARY system, meaning that it is a system based on chance, whim, or impulse and subjective individual preferences? Or am I missing something here? Hmm, I have a question: what are some probable objective commonalities in this system between individuals?
Good question.

As I said, you can use about anything as a divinatory method from a deck of cards to finding feathers on the ground when you take a walk.

Ultimately, "divination" is nothing more than finding a way to establish a feed-back loop between your conscious mind and your subconscious or unconscious or superconscious self. One of the handiest things I ever discovered was that if I asked a question that was bothering me out loud, I could tell from the way my solar plexus reacted to the vibration of the words what the answer was. The problem with this method is that when a person is in an emotional state, they can get a BIG FALSE reading. It is at such times that Tarot cards, I ching, regular cards, a walk in nature, or whatever, can be so helpful.

Part of what we teach in QFG is to be able to develop and strengthen the feed-back loop in such a way that props are no longer needed. Ultimately, establishing a direct link via the magnetic center is ideal, but that takes long and often very difficult work. Very often, when the emotions are screaming "I want" or "I don't want" the higher self, or the objective facts around one dictate that the correct course of action or behavior is exactly the opposite of what the emotions do or do not want. But still, as long as we are in this world, there are going to be situations where the chemical emotions drown out the "still small voice," and so, having some little personal feed-back loop established is helpful.

RH said:
Off the top of my head you need to know is that a Qabalah tree is individual to each person. So you build this relationships according to your experience. It is an ARBITRARY system.
I would say that, rather than deciding arbitrarily with the conscious mind what different things may mean, one ought to spend time observing your real environment for clues as to how you "speak" to yourself. When one tries to do this the other way, like saying "If I step on a crack, break my mother's back," or whatever, the tendency can all too easily run to obsessive self-referencing and even Obsessive Compulsive Disorder type behavior. So, better to take some time observing the environment and then what events follow to LEARN the language that your own higher self uses to try to get your attention.

RH said:
Like anything that is done with numbers. Numbers themselves are arbitrary, especially when assigned to time as we have learned from the C's.
This is a cross conceptualization.


What the Qabalah becomes for you is a system, a sort of map by which you learn, organize your own consciousness.
If you do this from the conscious state, you run the risk of OCD. In other words, you are trying to control what is "up there" from "down here" which is against the flow of creativity.

RH said:
For example: as you well know, most people hear too many voices in their heads.
That's a pretty broad statement. Can you cite evidence? I know of very few people who hear voices in their heads. Are you referring to the "chatter of thought?" If so, that ought to be carfully distinguished from "voices in the head." If I started hearing voices in my head I'd think I needed serious help...

RH said:
Many reasons for this. Voices in your head are the voices of all your problems, situations, people's opinions and judgements on you, etc... your own concerns about work, study, love relationshps, hobbies, etc.
That is not generally referred to as "voices in the head." It is imagination. It is wrong use of energy. It is generally a result of the usurpation of the energy of the emotional center to the use of the intellectual center.

RH said:
So, as you know, meditation has always been suggested by many people as a way to over come the voices in the head, and the Qabalah is for me that meditational tool.
Meditation can be a technique for learning self-discipline or it can be an escape from discipline, most often it is the latter. I generally discourage our students from USING Kabbalah because, as researching it has shown, it bears the imprint of heavy distortion and corruption and thus, used as a meditative tool, might tend to transfer the energies of the corruptors to the practitioner. We've seen too many tragedies rusulting from "leaping before looking." As always, knowledge protects.
 

Raintree

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Laura said:
I would say that, rather than deciding arbitrarily with the conscious mind what different things may mean, one ought to spend time observing your real environment for clues as to how you "speak" to yourself. When one tries to do this the other way, like saying "If I step on a crack, break my mother's back," or whatever, the tendency can all too easily run to obsessive self-referencing and even Obsessive Compulsive Disorder type behavior. So, better to take some time observing the environment and then what events follow to LEARN the language that your own higher self uses to try to get your attention.
Hi Laura, All,

Thank you for the feedback. Off the top of my head, I think I've had some experiences in regards to my real 'environments', that is both external and internal, on how 'I' may be speaking to myself. Today it hailed for 2 mintues and very hard when I was talking on the phone with someone else who I have very strong feelings for. I've had times when there have been lighting and thunder the exact time I am talking on the phone coinciding to intense emotions within. There have been times when I have seen the moonlight glaring off a smiley on van while sitting in the car and talking to someone. There have been times that I have noticed a spider on a web several times outside someone's house's entrance. There have been times that I have felt so depressed that it has been real foggy outside - I recall making a post on CassChat about this a while ago. Then there was the time in France when there was a huge Thunder Storm above a train station while I was humming a melody to myself and trying to cope with my emotions. There was the time in France when I was sitting alone in the train and very depressed while a bee was flying around me in the train... There have been times when huge bumble bees have been flying into my room and then leave after a while. So the trend I see here is that the 'signs', if in fact these are some sort of symbolic 'signs', are all related to my emotional state within. Then there have been dreams... well, I will keep watch and take note in case I may understand what they mean in the 'future'.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts,



PS. I just remembered reading on the Sign's Page yesterday, I think, that there was possibly a meteorite hiting somewhere in Burnaby BC at around 2:00 AM or something. Well, I actually posted something in that same time on the sign's forum and woke up the next morning and read the news about the meteorite...in fact, I also recall seeing a meteorite before going to France while driving back home From Nima's house around 2 or 3 AM in the morning...and this was I think three years ago. Wonder if this means anything...

PS again. There have also been times when it starts to rain hard or lightly and then stop synchoronously in regards to something I am feeling. This latter case has happened more often then what has been mentioned thus far, and I don't think it is anything 'odd' currently; however, I thought to mention it anyways because of the thought "sheets of rain"...I don't know what this is supposed to mean.
 
R

Realmhiker

Guest
WOW, I got DEBUNKED, DEBUGGED, exhorcized, sanitized, LOL and some other stuff...

I guess this is my innitiation here on SOTT forum... LOL Trial by fire as they say hehehe...

Seriously, thank you Laura, for actually clarifying some of my statements. I think you clarified what needed to be clarified, corrected what needed correction, and instructed me on things I did not or saw them that way... When I said "voices in the head," I did mean inner "chatter." Sometimes things do change from language to language. I have lived with English for hmm some 13 years, yet, I am amazed at how things can be so different sometimes. But i do see your concerns with what I wrote. You must know though that this is something I no longer do. I rarely even touch my tarot cards because in time I discovered that I didn't really needed them anymore. I was describing how I used Qabalah so help me with the tarot. At the time I began with Tarot, like many, I had never heard of the Cassiopean Material, and after reading what you said about OCD, I can see how this could be a problem. I don't think I have OCD... So thank you for the illumination.

Saman, I actually appreciate your comments. I think I was clear in saying that what I was saying was personal. You treated what I said asif I was asking you or others to do stuff. I don't want any one to do anything I say. I was clear in saying you must read, and come up with your own conclusions. I think you judged the book by its cover and were harsh and a bit unfair to me, but it's ok. I was not purposely disseminating any disinformation. It is obvious now that I might have, for that I apologize, but you asked me about a personal experience. I just told it as I know it. It teaches me something about how anything anyone says can come across as something else and triggers unexpected reactions. I must be more diciplined with what I put on writting. I do see your concerns as well, and just so you know, at the time I started Qabalah, I was under the guidance of a Wiccan priestess. Now, I know her to be a very nice person. Perhaps her advise was misguided, but it was the best I had at the time, and I as I stated before, I was describing my experience.Thank you anyway. I learned something today and that is what matters most.

ps: WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE SOTT SITE TODAY?
 

Novelis

Jedi Master
Thanks for your valuable insight Laura and everyone, I appreciate it.
You mentioned that at present you use the I Ching, if you don't mind me asking, how are you using it? Are you making predictions using various tools or perhaps a different method? Is there some way of using it in conjunction with the C's for example? I recently got this book by Richard Wilhelm on the book of changes, absolutely brilliant, found it in a second hand book store for 5 pounds, SCORE!
Are there any books you know of that are particularly good?

I myself am verging on obsession with the I Ching, but the way in which I want to apply it isn't through knowing it in the mind, or being able to use words to describe it, I want to know it deep within my entire body, hence the fascination with Tai Chi and internal martial arts. The thing is, by training the body to understand the I Ching, One is able to reach higher stages of "naturalness" where there is no difference between how the universe works and what you are doing, a profound obscurity the Daoist priests call it. I think the body is the most natural expression of your soul that there is, the problem people have is that their bodies aren't aligned properly with the mind and the spirit, so although the spirit might have good intentions and wants to do great acts of service, if the body is weak and doesn't understand the laws of change, then it can't express the spirit truly, this is why I focus on training the body as my top priority, because although the mind governs the body, they cannot be separated, preserving and training the body is essentially preserving the nature that is yourself, thus is beneficial for all aspects of oneself.

One could argue that it's the soul that really matters and not the body, but I've found my mind and spirit generally being more at peace, sharper and able to see the unseen better as my body works more naturally, does anyone have any thoughts on this?
This is why although I recognise the benefits of smoking; I'd still rather not do it because in my case, it does definitely have harmful effects on my body. But that's a different topic altogether, another time perhaps...
 
G

Guest

Guest
As I see it the I Ching represents patterns of changing binary systems, and can be applied to many complex dynamic systems including the body, provided coherent associations are made. Since it is the dynamic aspect of change that matters the associations need only be consistent and make sense to you. The I Ching hexagram meanings are rather interdependent in my view.

So to truly understand it, one has to go to the fundamentals of the binary construct and translate the chinese interpretations related to that ancient way of life into something more general, in terms of acting forces. I won't give particulars because your own insight determines the standards, and this is an excellent meditation unto itself. The key is the nature of yin and yang, the nature of the trigrams in terms more abstract than nature symbolism, the meanings of line pairs and the meanings of each line position, and the relation between line positions and line groups. Basically, the ideal would be to get to the mindset that brought about the insight of the original poems.

Trying to understand translations is difficult because no matter how good scholars are, getting into the spirit of that language, in terms of its ancient culture, something not easy for even a native, will lead to approximations in understanding. There are many I-Ching sites on the Internet, but I would look for the parts that describe the fundamental meanings of the basics, and try to understand why that is so. Then you can put patterns together.

One way of looking at the hexagrams is as concentric circles, with the lowest being the innermost, and view the line transformations as aspects of layered growth or a cascading transition wave. There are also many ways to understand yin and yang, which represent any kind of fundamental polarized interacting pair. The ancient Chinese culture also seems to have a bias against the feminine, as well as a worship of social hierarchy, which it associates with natural lay. To me that limits its interpretatitons.

Anyway, if you can associate the hexagram lines with areas of the body of yin and yang nature that are symmetrically related and form a coherent and meaningful structure, it can be quite revealing.

My two cents.
 

kenlee

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
EsoQuest said:
As I see it the I Ching represents patterns of changing binary systems, and can be applied to many complex dynamic systems including the body, provided coherent associations are made. Since it is the dynamic aspect of change that matters the associations need only be consistent and make sense to you. The I Ching hexagram meanings are rather interdependent in my view.

So to truly understand it, one has to go to the fundamentals of the binary construct and translate the chinese interpretations related to that ancient way of life into something more general, in terms of acting forces. I won't give particulars because your own insight determines the standards, and this is an excellent meditation unto itself. The key is the nature of yin and yang, the nature of the trigrams in terms more abstract than nature symbolism, the meanings of line pairs and the meanings of each line position, and the relation between line positions and line groups. Basically, the ideal would be to get to the mindset that brought about the insight of the original poems.
The I Ching is a mystery to me but I always got the impression that it's some kind of 'synchronicity computer' or something like that. There seems to be a triad associated with it that describe the three fundamental ways in which we understand the world.

In the I Ching you have:

1) Forms (hexagrams) that are represented in mathematically abstract/ kinaesthetic structures that you can kind of 'sense.'

2) Images that represent 'presence' such as (poetic) feelings-pictures and physical landscapes (which = metaphoric landscapes)?

3)) Commentaries that are conceptual and linear which represent linear processes and linear decisions and actions. There seems to be the idea of wholeness in the I Ching as if the I Ching is that third factor that brings analytic thought and intuitive understanding into a larger whole. This triad (as noted above) might represent the three fundamental ways in which we understand the world and relate to it. Here's an interesting link on it that I just found although I'm always real skeptical when anyone talks about DNA that is not scientifically based (seems like everyone in the metaphysical community is an expert on physics and DNA).

http://www.69yinyang.com/ICscience/digital11.html
 

Pierre

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Nowadays you can find dozens of different tarot decks. Most of the modern decks are really beautiful with many colours, sharp drawings, complex and various symbols. It can be really inspiring.

For divinatory purpose, most decks - and most supports (crystal balls, runes, water, candles,...) are probably suitable. Fundamentally, during those kind of exercices, it's your high emotional center (3rd eye) that might "talk" and support will help constructing links between feelings and pictures/words/symbols/logos.

Let me introduce you to the black sheep : the old and not so sexy Marseille Tarot deck. There are only 7 colors, drawings are quite primitive, there are some inconsistencies (there's no rope around the hanged man ankle ;-) and there are even spelling and typing mistakes in the arcanas titles.

If you want to have a look at the 21 + 1 major arcanas of this deck, you can follow this URL : http://www.criptkabbale.com/tarot/a22.htm (unfortunately comments are in French but you can get large and sharp pictures for each arcana)
 

Ruth

The Living Force
Laura said:
RH said:
Off the top of my head you need to know is that a Qabalah tree is individual to each person. So you build this relationships according to your experience. It is an ARBITRARY system.
I would say that, rather than deciding arbitrarily with the conscious mind what different things may mean, one ought to spend time observing your real environment for clues as to how you "speak" to yourself. When one tries to do this the other way, like saying "If I step on a crack, break my mother's back," or whatever, the tendency can all too easily run to obsessive self-referencing and even Obsessive Compulsive Disorder type behavior. So, better to take some time observing the environment and then what events follow to LEARN the language that your own higher self uses to try to get your attention.
Its kind of strange that I've just started to re-read the book Awakening Intuition by Mona Lisa Schulz. She is a 'medical intuitive' and describes her book as "Using your mind-body network for insight and healing".

What she is all about is telling us how our minds and our bodies 'interact' with each other and try and how our 'higher selves' often try to communicate through these two things. For example, people get sick and will occassionally have accidents when they chose not to deal with mental and emotional issues that really should be confronted, or do actions that are not in their best interests. Its like a message from our bodies that we need to 'redirect' our attention to something that maybe we don't want to deal with.

Its kind of interesting that the focus of Mona Lisa's book is almost entirely on the physical ailments. As I've just completed a clinical placement in a private psych hospital and she is actually a neuropsychiatrist, I wondered why she hadn't also done a book on the psychiatric disorders too (perhaps I will ask).

Anyway, she brings up how a lot of us totally ignore what our higher selves are saying, so much so that it is almost as if the higher self is 'forced' to communicate - often quite forcefully via other ways. Through the following: "symptoms of physical disorders and disease, dreams and internal visions, voices, body sensations, emotional reactions and memories".

I think Laura is right, a person needs to learn the language of their own higher self. Perhaps how each of us do this (or begin to do this) may be different. We should be relying on what's real and actually happening to us and around us, and not allow ourselves to become distracted by outside external influences such as 'magic'... or anything that looks remotely too hocus-pocusey.
 

Pierre

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Laura said:
the idea that the Tarot may convey secret knowledge I also find fascinating.
On a microcosmic level, tarot decks and particularly the sequence of the 21+1 major arcana might describe the initiatic path, the great work. The foul might be the hero of this beautiful journey made of 21 fundamental steps.
 

wodasi

Jedi Master
i wanted to add to this tarot stuff ,, If you have read any of the RA material (carla ruckert) they
covered the tarot..
I was looking for an on- line picture of the death card and stumbled on a free on-line tarot
reading & I did it ,, seemed most amazingly accurate but I think because I was not looking
for any particular answer it came thru ?
fourthdimension.net ( tarot:crowley thoth deck on-line reading)
 

Pierre

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
wodasi said:
stumbled on a free on-line tarot
reading & I did it ,, seemed most amazingly accurate but I think because I was not looking
for any particular answer it came thru ?
fourthdimension.net ( tarot:crowley thoth deck on-line reading)
There's a lot of Tarot decks. I would personnaly recommend one of the oldest one :
Tarot de Marseille (editor : Cartes Grimaud)

The author of the Tarot deck you mention is made by Alistair Crowley. Do you know about this individual ?
 
I believe tarot works something like this - the energies you have within or around you lead you to pick certain cards though the choice seems random. The cards are basically a mirror or sorts. Several years ago a friend did some tarot readings for me and four times in a row I received the High Priestess card which represents very accurately some major aspects of my personality and ambitions. After hearing how rare it was to get that particular card in succession the way I did I stopped messing around with tarot, I was a little frightened lol.
 
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