The Believing Brain and C's clues...

[obyvatel]

[quote author=Keit]
Basically, yeah, economic or environmental collapse is very scary. But really not something many countries didn't suffer through before. Actually, it may help many people in the US to "grow-up" a little as a nation. Or actually help them remember how they were before, because US also has its share of harsh times.
[/quote]

Exactly.

[quote author=DBZ]
I do have hope in a better reality, but as you said about history- this has happened before. Is it a blind belief that this world would have something closer to the ideal? Wouldn't a more objective belief be to accept that things are almost destined to be this way here?
[/quote]

Hope, belief and acceptance have important differences imo. It is difficult to express in words and may seem like wordplay. So maybe contemplating and discussing would help clarify.

Hope can be a lifeline in trying times. Without hope that things can be different from what they are, we humans lose our potential to act as conscious agents of the universe. Knowledge and understanding help in refining our hopes and make them more effective in serving their purpose, so we do not lose energy in hoping for improbable time-limited outcomes and get angry/depressed/frustrated as a result. The time factor is very important imo. To use an analogy, we can only spread seeds on suitable grounds in the hope they will sprout in due time, even if we are not around to see that happen.

Belief is a limited set of mental constructs. We inherit many of them through heredity, culture and education. Rest we build ourselves from our life experiences. Beliefs have their context specific uses. The C's gave an analogy along the lines of "belief is clinging to a rock while faith is learning to swim". In that analogy, hope tells us that we can learn how to swim - osit.

Acceptance is a state in which we acknowledge the reality of things as they are. It is not a belief. It is the foundation from which we can organize our lives and actions. So working on accepting reality as it is, not how it ought to be according to our limited set of beliefs, is a good starting point for serious Work. Acceptance is not resignation.

 

[Divide by Zero]

I see that the reason I looked so hard into what exactly is belief.

A part of me was labeling seeing things as they are as some belief.

It's hard to feel like that when the media, people see realism as some sort of pessimism.
It beats down on my soul, brings a doubt that perhaps I'm the one stuck in some limiting belief.

Even objectivity is such a fine line. When it comes to the higher levels, I would think the best way to learn objectivity is from the ground up, not from up coming down.

I need to meditate more, in the research articles on sott it seems that it rewires the brain to be more "direct". In our brains that like to create stories/narratives which belief connects to, it's best to go back to this "beginners mind".

I recalled a joke I heard a while ago while thinking about this topic:
"Life can be hazardous to your health"

In today's article posted about empathy being a problem I wonder if that is what makes life hazardous. After all, it's empathy that the narcissists and psychopaths use to sell dreams and manipulate.
Meditation also reduces this strong mechanical drive of empathy they note.
Perhaps too much empathy could be sort of a "physical/emotional" belief, pre verbal, or what not.

This human form has too many pitfalls. When do I get to pick an upgrade, haha

 

[Gaby]

But despite knowing that the father of the family still insisted on the entire family to continue doing certain "cultured" things that would fit in a more "civilized" environment. They made sure to keep themselves clean, neat and organized, and well educated. One could say that there was no point. It wasn't even a fool's hope. But for them it was simply who they were. External circumstances may change, but inner core remains the same. It also means that doing what we do now is not having a fool's hope, but because we cannot not do it. It's who we are.

It reminds me of some people I've seen attending the public health care system in Spain. They can come from very far away, or they can be dealing with the most difficult situation. Still, they will pick their best clothes and present themselves impecabbly as if it was their last day on Earth. This they do regardless of how bad they feel and regardless of the absurdity of their situation within the economic crisis and deteriorating society. They can't help but to face any difficulty with dignity and in their best presentation. It inspires awe and respect.

 

[obyvatel]

But despite knowing that the father of the family still insisted on the entire family to continue doing certain "cultured" things that would fit in a more "civilized" environment. They made sure to keep themselves clean, neat and organized, and well educated. One could say that there was no point. It wasn't even a fool's hope. But for them it was simply who they were. External circumstances may change, but inner core remains the same. It also means that doing what we do now is not having a fool's hope, but because we cannot not do it. It's who we are.

It reminds me of some people I've seen attending the public health care system in Spain. They can come from very far away, or they can be dealing with the most difficult situation. Still, they will pick their best clothes and present themselves impecabbly as if it was their last day on Earth. This they do regardless of how bad they feel and regardless of the absurdity of their situation within the economic crisis and deteriorating society. They can't help but to face any difficulty with dignity and in their best presentation. It inspires awe and respect.

Indeed. I have seen this expression of dignity in people of older generation who have faced hardships beyond what most of us can imagine. Dignity is a fast disappearing quality in the modern world. It is perhaps one of the most precious values in human life. If cultivated, it can help preserve our humanness through the most trying circumstances.

 

[sedenion]

I see that the reason I looked so hard into what exactly is belief.

A part of me was labeling seeing things as they are as some belief.

believing is, from a point of view, the only thing you can do. I guess you have a scientific formation, so, you know that your brain can only build some shematic of the reality, your brain had no direct access to reality, your "reality" is a pure combination of hard beliefs, biasis, and values. You don't know if "gravity" exists, you only have hard belief that, if you release some object away from the ground, if will fall to rejoin the ground. And since you can reproduce this experience, which works every time, from now, it is very hard for you to beleives that this is not an immutable rule. In some point of view, you have a very deep faith in "the gravity", this faith is what we call "knowledge", but in fact, you don't really know what is "the gravity"... The first one who understoud that (as our "knoledge") is Socrate: " I know one thing: that I know nothing"... which lead to the Kantian philosophy (Criticism of pure reason), passing by Descarte, which finally ends to our modern formalisation of this "problem" that we call Radical Constructivism http://www.oikos.org/radcon.htm / https://youtu.be/wr5M6oEx2j4?t=1h10m48s

So, if you are really honest with yourself, like Socrate, you finally conclude that you know nothing, you only have some beliefs, assumptions, presumptions, suppositions, and temporary hypothesis. However, knowing that you "know nothing" is only useful in the pure metaphysical context. In our practical daily basis reality, you better have to beleive that the soil is stable than doubting of that, otherwise you will stop to walk, because you will be afraid to fall in an infinit void all the time. You need to keep some stable beliefs, as landmarks, otherwise you simply going crazy. Another way to say is: You need to have faith in something...

It's hard to feel like that when the media, people see realism as some sort of pessimism.
It beats down on my soul, brings a doubt that perhaps I'm the one stuck in some limiting belief.

Maybe you are both right and wrong. Let's quit the pure philosophical context about knowlege and belief, and let's assume we live in a world where some beliefs are more accurate to understand how things are working (this is the scientific method, no ?). the question is : Do you have validated a rule that let you "know" something they ignore, or, are you working only with some assumptions and bias ? Medias are not a reference, since they living in a dream-like world, this i can tell you, because i verified :D However, this does not mean your perception is not somehow too pessimistic, because you ignore some data, or, you ignore that you are ignoring some data (you beleive you know). When you ignore something, this is an uncertain thing, so it is neutral, this can be "positive" or "negative", so you have no reason to be pessimistic about.

One fact is: i was judged as pessimistic during a good part of my life. With time i learned that i had both a better insight than the average (so i was able to see and know things than many other would ignore), and this insight leaded me to a real (not objective) pessimistic thinking because i am who i am with all its nevrotic fear of fail and bad surprises (this is a paradoxal vicious / positive cycle). One build the world that prevent emotionnal hurting, some are building some optimistic dream-like world for that purpose, i choosen an oposite strategy : a nightmare-like world ruled by the Murphy's law where nothing good can happen to me, but where i control every possible aspect of my life so can't have bad surprise since i anticipat all, or even provoke them to happen ! (this a reversed alchimical principle: transforming gold into plumb ). There a balancing to find between these two extrems.

 

[Anthony]

But despite knowing that the father of the family still insisted on the entire family to continue doing certain "cultured" things that would fit in a more "civilized" environment. They made sure to keep themselves clean, neat and organized, and well educated. One could say that there was no point. It wasn't even a fool's hope. But for them it was simply who they were. External circumstances may change, but inner core remains the same. It also means that doing what we do now is not having a fool's hope, but because we cannot not do it. It's who we are.

It reminds me of some people I've seen attending the public health care system in Spain. They can come from very far away, or they can be dealing with the most difficult situation. Still, they will pick their best clothes and present themselves impecabbly as if it was their last day on Earth. This they do regardless of how bad they feel and regardless of the absurdity of their situation within the economic crisis and deteriorating society. They can't help but to face any difficulty with dignity and in their best presentation. It inspires awe and respect.

Indeed. I have seen this expression of dignity in people of older generation who have faced hardships beyond what most of us can imagine. Dignity is a fast disappearing quality in the modern world. It is perhaps one of the most precious values in human life. If cultivated, it can help preserve our humanness through the most trying circumstances.

And especially if we take into account the precious snowflake nonsense.

 

[obyvatel]

[quote author=Sedenion]
One fact is: i was judged as pessimistic during a good part of my life. With time i learned that i had both a better insight than the average (so i was able to see and know things than many other would ignore), and this insight leaded me to a real (not objective) pessimistic thinking because i am who i am with all its nevrotic fear of fail and bad surprises (this is a paradoxal vicious / positive cycle). One build the world that prevent emotionnal hurting, some are building some optimistic dream-like world for that purpose, i choosen an oposite strategy : a nightmare-like world ruled by the Murphy's law where nothing good can happen to me, but where i control every possible aspect of my life so can't have bad surprise since i anticipat all, or even provoke them to happen ! (this a reversed alchimical principle: transforming gold into plumb ). There a balancing to find between these two extrems.
[/quote]

People who are regarded as pessimists do often have above average insight into reality. The question then becomes what do with the insight? You have chosen one path. You recognize, correctly, that fear plays the biggest role in the choice of the path you are on. Personally, I like both the honesty and the insight.

It is possible to preserve one's insight and reduce progressively the underlying fear. But efforts of this nature can only be made if or when one is not satisfied with one's existing condition anymore. Until then, I would guess that one's life is mostly about knocking down others' naive and unrealistic ideas about life and reality using one's insight, (which ends up in) pushing other people's buttons and perhaps enjoying a short lived intellectual smugness until the darker mental states come back. And then the cycle repeats again.

Apparently you know all this, so nothing new here. I doubt if any intellectual argument or suggestions to read books will be accepted by you as it would look like an effort to "fix you" and you would reflexively reject that. Like Laura said in the other thread, only if you find a relationship with something that is more valuable and powerful than the fears that currently drive your life will there be impetus for change.


I am aware that you stated in the other thread
[quote author=Sedenion]
Now, stops speaking about me, or this topic will become a personnal psychotherapy (and with me, that will never ends)...
[/quote]

I am no psychotherapist and have no intention (or capability for that matter) of fixing you in any way. This forum discusses a lot of intellectual, philosophical and metaphysical topics with a very high signal to noise ratio - but at the same time, most members here are deeply committed to a feeling centered (in Jungian terms), caring attitude towards those who interact here. And it is natural for human beings with such an attitude to suggest things that have worked for them or they believe will work for others who struggle with certain issues. So, the reason for writing this post is to share my perspective with other forumites so they can have some additional data to help choose how they spend their energy.

FWIW

 

[Richs]

I see that the reason I looked so hard into what exactly is belief.

A part of me was labeling seeing things as they are as some belief.

This might have carried over as you feeling that other people seeing things as they are might also be some belief on their part.

It's hard to feel like that when the media, people see realism as some sort of pessimism.
It beats down on my soul, brings a doubt that perhaps I'm the one stuck in some limiting belief.

This is why we need to have faith in what we know. "Faith" is not the same as "belief". The C's have pretty much told us the equivalent of 'if you need us to provide proof you're in the wrong bar'. This does not mean faith in nonsense, but faith in what we 'know'.

Even objectivity is such a fine line. When it comes to the higher levels, I would think the best way to learn objectivity is from the ground up, not from up coming down.

I'm not at all sure if it makes any difference which direction we use to approach it. I think what matters most is our attempts to see everything as clearly as possible as it really is, without bias, internal consideration, programs, etc. I also don't think objectivity can be 'learned' as it is something to ascribe toward rather than something tangible, such as 'learning' mathematics.

I need to meditate more, in the research articles on sott it seems that it rewires the brain to be more "direct". In our brains that like to create stories/narratives which belief connects to, it's best to go back to this "beginners mind"

That might make sense as it would seem to help in enabling us to look at everything without preconceptions or based upon what we already think we know. Considering that some of what we 'already know' may be some belief system, this might help to eliminate that bias from our analysis of the current thing under investigation and scrutiny.

In today's article posted about empathy being a problem I wonder if that is what makes life hazardous. After all, it's empathy that the narcissists and psychopaths use to sell dreams and manipulate.
Meditation also reduces this strong mechanical drive of empathy they note.
Perhaps too much empathy could be sort of a "physical/emotional" belief, pre verbal, or what not.

Too much of anything is probably not a good thing.

This is part of why we do the Work. It seems as if when we are only utilizing our Lower Emotional Center it has a certain 'power' to cause us to do things, more or less 'overpowering our other Centers. If we can get to where we are using our Higher Centers, and they are balanced and integrated, it then does not appear to be a problem to feel "empathy", as that is simply another 'information input' which we then use to come to conclusions and understandings of something.

It is not only permissible to feel emotions, but is absolutely necessary in our present reality But, they should not be 'emotions that limit' but emotions which help us advance.

 

[sedenion]

Apparently you know all this, so nothing new here. I doubt if any intellectual argument or suggestions to read books will be accepted by you as it would look like an effort to "fix you" and you would reflexively reject that.

I would reject for many reasons... i am not here to be helped, and certainly not for pity: i well manage myself, and if you look closely, i laugh at my own misadventure. I speak about my experience like some unusual or funny anecdots... because yes, in some point of view, this is funny. My little experience of "how to wast a life" is pretty nice compared to other one experiences. You can see me as a kind of "sad clown".

 

[Phill4]

Pesimism, at its core, is not a direct indication of intelligence.

I too share that in common, Yes our natural worry about things happening and our moral values put this reality in a negative scale.

At the personal level, seeing everything through doom glasses or a sense of superiority has its own set of perception errors. Our assumptions become tainted by our own set of beliefs.
Because our beliefs are directly connected to our emotions, having no clean emotional processing, we are bound to errors of perception.

I recognize the negativity of this world but when that becomes a factor of self-draining, or we become a burden for others, we are no different than the world we are trying to change. It means we hit a wall that intellectual abilities alone cannot bypass.

. Now, stops speaking about me, or this topic will become a personnal psychotherapy (and with me, that will never ends)...

Well, if you belief it will never end, your mind will find the way for what you call "psychoanalisys towards your person" to never end. And thus will be your experience.
It is interesting because it is what's being discussed.

A way to prove it, is to, in spite of what you call "psychoanalisys" you can end the discussion without being a victim of a self imposed belief that it won't end.


Simplistic or self-accomodating answers to complex topic is not how we get answers.

Apparently you know all this, so nothing new here. I doubt if any intellectual argument or suggestions to read books will be accepted by you as it would look like an effort to "fix you" and you would reflexively reject that.

I would reject for many reasons... i am not here to be helped, and certainly not for pity: i well manage myself, and if you look closely, i laugh at my own misadventure. I speak about my experience like some unusual or funny anecdots... because yes, in some point of view, this is funny. My little experience of "how to wast a life" is pretty nice compared to other one experiences. You can see me as a kind of "sad clown".

In this, i would deffinetly reject "seeing you as a sad clown", that is far from reality to me, no one should force you help, and you can find your own way that works for you, but this particular subject is DIRECTLY related to who we are, the belief systems paint our reality.

Sedenion, the thing is, that these conversations usually flow in the direction of self discovery, and if you decide to jump into one while demanding the 2000 or so members here to ignore you and themselves, your expectations will never be met. It is just not going to happen, just consider how many people have something to say at any given point.
Yes, we can respect your descicion which is based on you knowledge, though, you are in a place where this is talk about in deepth, and some times this needs psychoanalisys. You can always choose to drop from a conversation if you really don't want to be psychoanalized, as you put it. Or when you feel you have taken what you needed and and leave what you consider is not needed.

Also consider others ask questions because they are in a struggle and that is why they in that case wish to be psychoanalized because they exausted all their own methods and need an outside eye and opinion.


This topic is just too wide to simplify. I have alot of questions about it from my own personal angle, and helps to read what others have to say.

 

[sedenion]

Well, if you belief it will never end, your mind will find the way for what you call "psychoanalisys towards your person" to never end. And thus will be your experience.
It is interesting because it is what's being discussed.

In this precise case, this is more because i well know the process ... I say something strange, people becom curious, asks questions, give advices, so i reply more strange things, and so on ... at the final stage, i take rotten tomatoes in my face and i reply with beer cans :) Notice, this is funny, but, this would be repetitive for me.

A way to prove it, is to, in spite of what you call "psychoanalisys" you can end the discussion without being a victim of a self imposed belief that it won't end.

I say "that will never end" to deter people to continue on this dangerous way.

Simplistic or self-accomodating answers to complex topic is not how we get answers.

And the topic is not ME... (you see the problem ?)

In this, i would deffinetly reject "seeing you as a sad clown", that is far from reality to me, no one should force you help, and you can find your own way that works for you, but this particular subject is DIRECTLY related to who we are, the belief systems paint our reality.

Ok, see me as a not-sad clown... yes, the belief systems paint our reality... so, a clue: what happen if i decide to follow and validate the belief system of people that want to help me because they think my situation is a very sad, very serious and that i am not able help me myself... ?

Sedenion, the thing is, that these conversations usually flow in the direction of self discovery, and if you decide to jump into one while demanding the 2000 or so members here to ignore you and themselves, your expectations will never be met. It is just not going to happen, just consider how many people have something to say at any given point.

I don't damand to "ignore me", i "demand" to not being the topic. others do what they want...

Also consider others ask questions because they are in a struggle and that is why they in that case wish to be psychoanalized because they exausted all their own methods and need an outside eye and opinion.

others do what they want...

 

[Divide by Zero]

Actually, any topic is fair ground for the work. Sometimes the work requires constructive criticism. Without the observations of others, how do you know if you are seeing or thinking clearly?

For example, I originally started this thread to be intellectual about it. Little did I see some of these thoughts were coming from a deeper side. It helps to have a discussion to explain your own ideas, because you put it in the open for a true test... or in an untestable idea, analysis of why it was thought, etc.


Thanks Richard about the reminder of the difference in faith.

I think the danger deep down I fear is to have faith in something that may never happen.
But what else can I put faith in? I see no point in transhumanism, nor reincarnating over and over and over.
That might be a "negative" way to have faith, but it might be the only true way to shatter illusions.

Belief is something that would be easier to follow, because it helps one confirm itself- a feedback loop, yikes!


I think

 

[Phill4]

I will be answering in courtesy of your questions and will only continue on this topic if you so wish.

In this precise case, this is more because i well know the process ... I say something strange, people becom curious, asks questions, give advices, so i reply more strange things, and so on ... at the final stage, i take rotten tomatoes in my face and i reply with beer cans :) Notice, this is funny, but, this would be repetitive for me.

Im talking for myself here, but my intention isn't to "throw tomatoes" at you, some of the items you mentioned are interesting, and i am all open to lets say to put my comments to the test.
If i am saying something because i disagree, i usually present context to nurture the discussion. I always keep in mind i can be wrong. And more importantly what i can learn.
I see it as an exchange, i give/get you give/get. With everything really even in our lives. With the environment air, sun money etc etc.

I say "that will never end" to deter people to continue on this dangerous way.

I am assuming the danger reffers to the deflection of the topic at hand? I am assuming this one.
And if the assumption is correct, the i see your point.
Though, we are always in comand to end an argument or perpetuate it. Need two to tango.

Simplistic or self-accomodating answers to complex topic is not how we get answers.

And the topic is not ME... (you see the problem ?)

I believe i do, in this partiular sentence though
My comment was refferencing to everything discussed here, i have a series of cenceptual and methodical disagreements on how to discover the belief system being discussed, but relate to how i personaly see this issue.
And i agree, it is not about you, mainly about how DBZ presented the one of the items in the disucssion. It is not about DBZ himself either. Simply i found appropiate to bring relevance that the answer is more dense than we are addresing it mothodically at present and a good reminder in general even to myself.

Ok, see me as a not-sad clown... yes, the belief systems paint our reality... so, a clue: what happen if i decide to follow and validate the belief system of people that want to help me because they think my situation is a very sad, very serious and that i am not able help me myself... ?

You will be feeding the program of "fixing" someone or something that is asking for no "fix" on those people. Regardless of analisys accuracy. Though that particular program is spoted and pointed out to others quiet often, as it is part of the work, no one's perfect we are a work in progress.

I agree with you on that. I did mentioned, take what you need.
Be aware though, not eveyone's intention is to "fix" a person when they comment, and also that many come specifically asking for help because they may indeed be in a sad situation. But more importantly most people here are aware of the importance of working on the self, and thus will present ideas in that format and with those concepts.
The principle to help someone as i understand is that the person that needs help will come asking, and make efforts themselves, then help can be delivered, in whatever way we/you are ready to offer.

I don't damand to "ignore me", i "demand" to not being the topic. others do what they want...

We can both can discuss here and may agree on this points, though the dynamics here(forum) in conversation also have at heart people who are in a sensitive state, lets say they wish to bring themselves to the topic, in that case people will try to come and deffend the space created for that person to bring a personal issue forward,
If you can perceive when, in any given thread, or conversation, this happens, and you use care to address the person or chose to continue with the original topic, or withdraw most people will agree with your demand.
Though the forum in general is not ONE person, is an structure composed of many people, you included.
And as you put it, many times:

others do what they want...

If you wish to conclude this parentesys, we can all go back and answer or speculate on the concept of belief system together, and as you may be aware, the nature of this topic include personal forms of perception, linked directly to us, and the world in general, with examples of general population having one belief, as well as the internal and esoteric workings of this idea , etc etc..

 

[sedenion]

You will be feeding the program of "fixing" someone or something that is asking for no "fix" on those people. Regardless of analisys accuracy.

Worst than that...

if i decide to follow and validate the belief system of people that want to help me because they think my situation is a very sad, very serious and that i am not able help me myself...

- i become sad, i fall in depressive thought
- i take my case very seriously, so my anxiety level goes up
- i do admit i am powerless, because i am not able to help me myself, so my self-esteem goes down.

= i become pessimistic, i dig a hole to put myself in, and from where i can't exit.

Though that particular program is spoted and pointed out to others quiet often, as it is part of the work, no one's perfect we are a work in progress.

Fact is, here, in this forum, many people take things very seriously, and from the moment you take all your problems very seriously, you put yourself in some stressing world, you generating anxity, which don't help.

Imagine you have a spot on your face. If you take it very seriously, this spot can literally waste your life, you will want to kill him by all the ways, so you will press it, crush it, mask it with cosmetic. At the final stage, you transformed this spot into a real injury. Or... you can just let this spot have its "life cycle", it will disapear spontenously, naturaly, without scar.

But more importantly most people here are aware of the importance of working on the self

You mean, doing some surgeries or cosmetic on the spot ? :P

( Why do people lie to themselves ? Because they have a belief system and value system that tell them "this trait is very bad, this is very serious !", so they develops some strategy to hide it, to others and to themselves. Putting some cosmetics on the spot in not a good idea... In this forum, the value system is implicitely very pressuring, this increase the pressure to hide defects, because one fear the judgment of others and self.. )

 

[Richs]

Actually, any topic is fair ground for the work. Sometimes the work requires constructive criticism. Without the observations of others, how do you know if you are seeing or thinking clearly?

For example, I originally started this thread to be intellectual about it. Little did I see some of these thoughts were coming from a deeper side. It helps to have a discussion to explain your own ideas, because you put it in the open for a true test... or in an untestable idea, analysis of why it was thought, etc.


Thanks Richard about the reminder of the difference in faith.


I think the danger deep down I fear is to have faith in something that may never happen.
But what else can I put faith in? I see no point in transhumanism, nor reincarnating over and over and over.

We live in very strange and unusual times and we have an awful lot of stress, confusion and trepidation.
Many years ago Laura asked those of us on the then current forum if we had "hope". I replied that I did, and continue to have hope to the present day. Perhaps having hope is what can carry us forward and enable us to continue on as we are doing even in the most difficult and darkest of times. At least, I hope so!