The condition of stuttering/stammering

[Erna]

I'm wondering if the 'sensitive/gentle/compassionate' soul isn't more susceptible to this. Over the many years that we've held conventions, I've noticed that your more ruthless, pathological business types were very calm and relaxed on stage, whereas the more gentle compassionate ones struggled with being nervous, out of breath and self-conscious. They (the sensitive types) might be so aware of others and influenced by their energy, that it affects them greatly, whereas the 'pathologicals' are in their element just to be in the spotlight, and don't really care about the members of the audience and are therefore not influenced.

This is just a shot in the dark. I've just observed so many public speakers over the years which I knew personally in the workplace, that it's maybe more than coincidence.

 

[Hildegarda]

I know that there are deaf people who don't like to look upon their condition as a disability, because they feel that in defining it as such, it limits them. The language we use to describe things can have a great impact upon our lives, and I admit that. But I tried to deny that I had a disability for the better part of my life, and I found it didn't get me anywhere. So I then thought that I'll see what happens if I define my problem as a disability and see where that takes me. So far I have seen little difference either way, but in some colleges/universities it is getting more recognition as a valid disability and it actually benefits stutterers. Surely this is a good thing

For years I hated the idea that I was different (and identified with being a Victim).....later this changed to accepting I was 'disabled' (whilst still identifying with being a Victim) and I wore it like a badge of honour. Having learnt to Not be a victim (and clearing all the emotional traumas hidden under the Victim program) has removed the need to be labeled as 'disabled'....I am just me (and occasionally have problems with spelling/coordination and memory).

Perhaps, dealing with a challenge like stammering is a process that has a few stages?

I think that purposely not paying attention to your condition and acting as if nothing's going on is a form of denial. A person can believe this is temporary, that it is insignificant, and totally misjudge how he\she is perceived and how the condition impacts his life and performance. This also may reflect lack of self-awareness and self-acceptance.

Next to this, recognizing that there IS something going on, independent on what a person may think or wish for, and that has a significant impact on her life -- recognizing a disability -- is a step forward. Then a person can be more observant of himself, get appropriate treatment or accommodations. This also leads to there being more discussion of the condition in society and more acceptance of it and people whose life it impacts. Colleges coming up with individual accommodations for students with stutter is a 100% positive development.

But the next step forward would be to recognize that this condition is only a part of the person and doesn't define him or his life. And that may give more confidence, more feeling of freedom and actually decrease the manifestation of the condition without any extra effort on the person's part. The difference between the first step is the same as between trying hard to forget something and actually forgetting because you have moved past it.

It probably will take time, lots of it, and the key is not to get stuck on any of the stages, as it would turn identification to self-identification and change gains into detriments.

OSIT,

 

[Third_Density_Resident]

Sorry for my late replies, everyone, and thanks again for all the valuable contributions you have all made. I have to confess that this thread has grown more than I imagined it would; a part of me said that I'd be lucky to get 5 replies. I don't know why I thought this; I guess I was projecting my own cynicism and depressing thoughts onto others.

Hi 3D Resident. I just wanted to share something with you that may help someone else as well.
One important thing I've learned from recapitulation is 'mapping' and something I learned from General Semantics is the importance of accurate correspondence between the map and the territory. That is, to be as accurate as is possible considering the 'map' and the 'territory' represent two different levels of abstraction.

One possible way out of emotional identification with this issue at certain times, could be to let your awareness expand in order to accomodate more and more information that is present during a stuttering 'incident,' similar to the way a pupil dilates to accomodate more and more light.

Regarding the last two times you stuttered: what time was it? Where were you geographically? Were you inside or outside some shelter? What internal conditions were you under? Consider stress levels, what you wanted to say, how bad you wanted to say it, what was the subject, what were the words/sounds/letters you stumbled over, who were you talking to, was it raining, how was the temperature, what were you wearing, what were they wearing, what points of view were involved, what was any sub-text going on, etc.,etc.

By doing your best to keep these blanks filled in and recapitulating the time of life when this 'all' started, you could possibly get some insights or answers.

Your advice about letting awareness expand in order to accommodate more and more information present during a stuttering incident is interesting, because it pretty much forms some of the core advice I've been reading of late in the treatment of stuttering.

Your quote about Non-Allness is extremely interesting, and I need to re-read it several times because there's a lot in it.

RedFox, it's interesting that the quote from Windmill Knight refers to OCD. I have mild OCD which manifests in several ways. One of my forms of OCD, as you may have guessed through direct experience, is obsession with correctly written English. I have always been extremely pedantic with my own writing and with the writing of others, and I believe this is because it's one of the forms of communication over which I have a lot of control, unlike spoken communication.

I am (or was 'diagnosed' as being) mildly dyslexic and dyspraxic (use to have problems with fine motor control/coordination and had no short term memory at all), which I put down partly to being starved of oxygen at birth.
For years I hated the idea that I was different (and identified with being a Victim).....later this changed to accepting I was 'disabled' (whilst still identifying with being a Victim) and I wore it like a badge of honour. Having learnt to Not be a victim (and clearing all the emotional traumas hidden under the Victim program) has removed the need to be labeled as 'disabled'....I am just me (and occasionally have problems with spelling/coordination and memory).

So looking at the thoughts and feelings behind the need to have stammering 'recognised' as a disability may be covering up a victim program (strong identification with a label/behaviour that one seems powerless to control....control of self being placed on/given too external persons or the universe at large)…fwiw

Over the last couple of years I have very nearly worn my stuttering problem as a "badge of honour". I say nearly, because I've still been embarrassed and ashamed by it, but in the back of my mind I always had a plan that if someone questioned my choices in life, or questioned why I have not apparently done as much as other "normal" people my age, that I would react with, "well I have actually been stuttering for over 25 years since age 4 and that's why I am where I am today!" Up until 2 years ago that kind of reaction would never have occurred to me.

And yes, I totally believe I am in the grip of a "victim program". I have totally let my speech difficulties control and dominate many of my life's decisions. And get this -- I have even delayed or procrastinated doing things to help my speech! And I believe I have done this because part of me likes the victim program; likes having that excuse for why I have been a recluse all my life. Heaven forbid that I should actually talk fluently again, because I wouldn't have any excuse to fall back on!

As for negative feedback loops -- yes I most certainly have those in droves, as do all stutterers. You have one bad experience, and from that time on you feel as nervous as hell speaking in a similar situation, and the nervousness makes you more likely to stutter, and on and on it goes! I can guarantee that if I was 100% relaxed and calm while speaking on the phone, my speech would reach 90% fluency. The other 10% is to do with other factors, the details of which I need to gather through self-observation using methods similar to what Buddy suggested above. The 90% figure applies to me of course; each stutter will have their own.

I'm wondering if the 'sensitive/gentle/compassionate' soul isn't more susceptible to this. Over the many years that we've held conventions, I've noticed that your more ruthless, pathological business types were very calm and relaxed on stage, whereas the more gentle compassionate ones struggled with being nervous, out of breath and self-conscious. They (the sensitive types) might be so aware of others and influenced by their energy, that it affects them greatly, whereas the 'pathologicals' are in their element just to be in the spotlight, and don't really care about the members of the audience and are therefore not influenced.

This is just a shot in the dark. I've just observed so many public speakers over the years which I knew personally in the workplace, that it's maybe more than coincidence.

Actually, you are pretty much spot-on. I read recently part of a book by an ex-stutterer called John C. Harrison where he quotes a study that showed that the one thing that just about all stutterers had in common was that they were hypersensitive as children and continued to be so as adults. I cannot find the relevant section now, but I certainly remember it. And sure enough, I was always a sensitive little kid who got hurt by others extremely easily, and who got very upset at tiny things like a goldfish dying. Also it's worth mentioning that around age 3, I was extremely attached to my mother and would cry if separated from her for even a few moments, even if I could still see her in the distance!

I also happen to know someone who, with 95% certainty, is a psychopath. He talks as calmly and smoothly as ever. I have NEVER heard him stutter or even hesitate once in his life, something that most people seem to do from time to time, whether they have a stuttering problem or not.

Of course none of this is to say that a person who never stutters or hesitates is a psychopath; but there does seem to be a pattern.

Perhaps, dealing with a challenge like stammering is a process that has a few stages?

I think that purposely not paying attention to your condition and acting as if nothing's going on is a form of denial. A person can believe this is temporary, that it is insignificant, and totally misjudge how he\she is perceived and how the condition impacts his life and performance. This also may reflect lack of self-awareness and self-acceptance.

Next to this, recognizing that there IS something going on, independent on what a person may think or wish for, and that has a significant impact on her life -- recognizing a disability -- is a step forward. Then a person can be more observant of himself, get appropriate treatment or accommodations. This also leads to there being more discussion of the condition in society and more acceptance of it and people whose life it impacts. Colleges coming up with individual accommodations for students with stutter is a 100% positive development.

But the next step forward would be to recognize that this condition is only a part of the person and doesn't define him or his life. And that may give more confidence, more feeling of freedom and actually decrease the manifestation of the condition without any extra effort on the person's part. The difference between the first step is the same as between trying hard to forget something and actually forgetting because you have moved past it.

It probably will take time, lots of it, and the key is not to get stuck on any of the stages, as it would turn identification to self-identification and change gains into detriments.

AMEN! I do believe you have hit the nail on the head, so I really cannot add anything to this! :)

 

[RedFox]

I'm wondering if the 'sensitive/gentle/compassionate' soul isn't more susceptible to this. Over the many years that we've held conventions, I've noticed that your more ruthless, pathological business types were very calm and relaxed on stage, whereas the more gentle compassionate ones struggled with being nervous, out of breath and self-conscious. They (the sensitive types) might be so aware of others and influenced by their energy, that it affects them greatly, whereas the 'pathologicals' are in their element just to be in the spotlight, and don't really care about the members of the audience and are therefore not influenced.

This is just a shot in the dark. I've just observed so many public speakers over the years which I knew personally in the workplace, that it's maybe more than coincidence.

Actually, you are pretty much spot-on. I read recently part of a book by an ex-stutterer called John C. Harrison where he quotes a study that showed that the one thing that just about all stutterers had in common was that they were hypersensitive as children and continued to be so as adults. I cannot find the relevant section now, but I certainly remember it. And sure enough, I was always a sensitive little kid who got hurt by others extremely easily, and who got very upset at tiny things like a goldfish dying. Also it's worth mentioning that around age 3, I was extremely attached to my mother and would cry if separated from her for even a few moments, even if I could still see her in the distance!

fwiw I have been (and still am to some extent) over sensitive to others emotions (or perceived emotions)....to the point where they have been literally overwhelming.
I don't know if you've read it already but the discussion about eyes in the E-E thread but this may (or may not) link with the oversensitivity you mention...

Something that really chills me is dead or soulless eyes. I often notice that when people are talking to me, their eyes are flat – there is no life in them, even though they may appear quite enthusiastic or animated in what they are saying. I may be enjoying what they are saying and their enthusiasm, and suddenly I notice that their eyes are dead. It is a shock and quite chilling to observe this and ponder the implications, to realise that I am having a conversation with a machine, and that all their thoughts, feelings, reactions, words and movements – in short, everything about the person – is mechanical.

I remember staring in horror as a small child at certain people.......whats worse is it felt like whatever was behind the eyes noticed me notice it....and I would know it knew I'd noticed it (sorry for the tongue twister)....which would make it worse....
This has been my life, so to 'see these things' is just part of me....what I realise is that my programs and rational mind have tried there best to protect me from these things....by shutting it out.
More so I became convinced that what it was me that was the problem (especially as a teenager).....I would 'see' fear or disgust in others when they looked at me. I have very strong programs to do with Not making eye contact with others....it finally makes sense as to why I have them.

For me this picking up of something....either exaggerated/distorted by personal circumstance or actually accurate was it seems the main element in the creation of most of my programs....specifically the formation of me as a 'victim'. Infact now I think about it....this is exactly what is described in the Myth of Sanity when she describes how childhood trauma (in this case being overwhelmed by totally others emotions) cause us to disassociate/fragment...
I'm also reminded of the example of the lady given as an example in The Narcissistic Family (I think) who sold houses.....and who's negative introject (negative thought loops she is unaware of) would disable her critical thinking to the point where she couldn't navigate her and her client to the house she was to show....her mind would go 'blank' (she would loose part of her thinking ability, it disassociated).
So perhaps then it is the same dynamics with a different outcome....the emotions (or perceived emotions) of the person your interacting with trigger your learnt disassociation...but instead of all of you going, it is simply your ability to speak clearly/objectively think.

Sorry for my late replies, everyone, and thanks again for all the valuable contributions you have all made. I have to confess that this thread has grown more than I imagined it would; a part of me said that I'd be lucky to get 5 replies. I don't know why I thought this; I guess I was projecting my own cynicism and depressing thoughts onto others.

I think all these things tie so many of the core ideas of disassociation, narcissistic/traumatic wounding and the predators mind....which effect us all that it is bound to get us all talking/thinking about it. I am glad you started this post 3D. :)

 

[eliansito]

A potential experiment would be to recall times when you stammered terribly (and the emotions/thoughts that went with it)..and try speaking out loud. Basically can you recall the internal 'bell' that triggers your stammering mode and make yourself stammer?? I know this may be counter intuitive (you probably want to avoid stammering at all costs)...but consciously choosing to play the bell and enter that mode gives you the opportunity to experiment and observe consciously the internal changes that are occurring....
It also leads to something very important I feel....if you can make yourself stammer just by recalling the 'bell' from memory, you can make yourself stop because it is the same internal mechanism. osit
So if you can make yourself stammer, what happens if you then do a round of pipe breathing and speak out loud again?? Or practice in that mode feeling unconditional love/acceptance/faith in yourself?? What do you feel?? What does your heart rate/breathing do?? What thoughts come up?? What emotions?? What memories??
What does the predator throw at you to keep you in that mode so it can continue to feed?? And what effect does recalling the time you where in the presence of the other stammerer or pipe breathing have on all of the above??

Interestingly, your advice about making oneself stutter is actually recommended by many therapists and recovering stutterers. I can do it sometimes, and I notice that when I do that my Valsalva mechanism is triggered, as I mentioned above. The emotional aspect of it is harder to replicate, but through remembrance of actual events, I believe that my mind goes into an absolute panic and can see no way out. Taking a deep breath and then speaking while breathing out can sometimes break this blocking, but while in the panic, it's hard to even remember to do that! So I guess more practice is required.



Have you tried hypnosis or NLP?

From that point of view I would like to reflect on something that goes in diametrically the opposite direction as the suggestion above.

NLP founder explains that when he started developing his skills, he observed that when tackling a problem like a phobia or schizofrenia the mainstream therapies were allways dwelling in what schizofrenia is and does, and he started looking the other way, what do regular folks do that schizofrenics don't do, and how do they do it?. He would find the differences and teach them to the patients and lol, he could cure them.

And from that point of view I think you could dissect and study what do you do when you speak fluently now and see if you could find out how you could use those skills in those occasions when you used to speak less fluently.

Or how to develope your skill of speaking fluently by broadening and deepening it now to be able to somehow transpose it easily to all of the situations where you used to speak less fluently.

Hope this helps you in developing further your speaking fluently skills.

R

 

[Third_Density_Resident]

Have you tried hypnosis or NLP?

Actually, I now have a book that has techniques similar to those used in NLP. However I am now concerned about NLP, after reading several discussions on it here which more or less say it's a bad thing, or at least can be used in a negative way. I hope I am correct in the assessment that NLP can be used for good, at least in the case of stuttering.

 

[eliansito]

In this case I thing that a little bit of reading and knowledge about NLP will quickly ease your concerns, NLP is a tool, and of course it can be used for bad things, but it is nothing obscure, ritualistic or esoteric. I will recommend you start with reading a bit about hypnosis first, for NLP developed mainly from hypnosis.

If yo would like to read about hypnosis, start by the work of Milton Erickson, an historic figure that in my opinion, will give you a very good overview before you decide to explore further.

If you wish to go directly to NLP, I would recommend the first books of its two co founders, John Grinder and Richard Bandler, titles like "frogs into princes" "tranceformations" or "Operating your own brain". Those are transcriptions of seminars in the early days of NLP, are short and easy read if you read as you would read a novel, for an overview.

If you read and work on the material (doing the exercises or experimenting with your own mind) as you advance, it can be as deep as you make it.

Also for a foundation overview, or "NLP Workbook" O'Connor, a comprehensive manual that will give you an understanding of what and how NLP does what it does.

In any case and only after you have eased your concerns via some reading, it is, as usual, advisable that you look for a reputable therapist and ask him as many questions as you see fit.

Regardless of improving your speaking fluently skills, you will find them books very interesting.

Good luck even if you don't need it!

R

 

[Third_Density_Resident]

You offer good advice eliansito, thanks. And thanks for those books you have suggested. I think it is very important to use NLP in conjunction with a therapist who knows what they are doing and has experience in this area, as you suggest.

 

[Ollie]

Hi eliansito

The NLP process you described in your earlier post about 'what regular guys do' is called behavioural competency modelling, and requires knowledge not only of external behavioural effects but also of the internal filters of the person being modelled for it to be effective.

3D Resident
The book of O'Conner is a good starting book to read if you are interested in pursuing NLP, however, like most things you are less than able to do the work just from reading. Undertaking training and then putting it into practice is also required, and after a while you begin to understand what is happening. A lot of it is based on Erikson's conversational hypnosis.

In my opinion, you may, or may not, be better off sticking with doing the Breathing-meditation programme; the effects are likely to be longer lasting, more comprehensive, and deeper.

 

[eliansito]

Maybe I was a bit vague on that point but yes as Trevrizent says the NLP workbook was not recommended so that you can heal your self, but just to give you a better understanding before attempting to find a therapist or do a training to eventually be able to heal yourself.

An for the Behavioural Competency modelling was just to illustrate the basis or principles on what this NLP approach is based, again useless if you don't know how to do it, or have the help of a reputed therapist.

Sorry if the meaning of my post was not completely clear about those two very important points.

Thanks

R

 

[casper]

We have this sprinter in SA, Oscar Pistorius, better known as 'Blade Runner'. His legs were amputated at an early age.

His story is extremely inspiring. During the last Olympic games in China they ruled that he can't compete against able bodied athletes, because he had an "unfair advantage" - the graphite or titanium his blades are made of were much lighter than human legs. It was ironic really, when able bodied athletes started complaining about the threat that he posed. ;) That guy's like a bullet out of a gun!

For many, it was an inspiration, but ...
quote from the article:
"South African Paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius should be conditionally released from prison after serving ten months for second-degree murder of his girlfriend Reeve Steenkamp, said a member of his family on Monday, a court source said that it is not ruled out re-trial which will be decided in November. "
Link:
https://translate.google.hr/translate?sl=hr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=hr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdnevnik.hr%2Fvijesti%2Fsvijet%2Fpistorius-na-uvjetnoj-slobodi-pustit-ce-ga-do-kraja-kolovoza---388504.html&edit-text=