The Dangers of the White Knight Syndrome

RedFox said:
For me it's always been about external validation of my self worth - my right to exist and have needs being something that was somehow the responsibility of others.
I'd burn myself out anticipating other peoples needs (without asking) and then feel empty that they didn't anticipate mine (without communicating or even realising I had any).
Point 2 above also tied into a deep fear that I was somehow fundamentally broken and not worthy of anything let alone being liked by even just one women (a relationship just seemed like something from another universe I didn't inhabit). When I did end up in a relationship I clung on to it with all my strength and poured all the resources I had into it/her.
I would always try harder, and it was some time after hitting burnout/the end of the relationship that the feeling of failure and 'should have tried harder' started to fade enough to be questioned.
This thread seems to be the final full stop to that I hope.

RedFox,

What you describe here is very spot on in describing what was for many years a driving motivator for my interaction with women and also friends and other people.

I think this is a very interesting topic. The following are some of my thoughts on it.

FWIW, I see it, as a question of personal responsibility and free will. Whatever situation people find themselves in, that situation has a cause and a potential for learning. It is the responsibility of the person to apply their free will to change the situation that we might want to save them from. Asking for help is one option and if someone asks you for help you should use your free will to decide if the help is something that you will provide. This is often the tricky part because many people will rather be "saved" than take responsibility for their own life - it's easier, faster and does often not require that people make a truthful assessment of their life and own up to the responsibility. And often, if the person is a rescuee-type, they may become mad at you for not helping when, according to their own perspective, they're obviously in need of help.

Also, if you're an emphatic person it's actively unpleasant to witness another person in distress or pain and there's a natural inclination to want to remove that pain. However, I'm not always sure whether the motive is to remove the pain in yourself from witnessing it in the other person or to remove the pain from the other person without thought for yourself. But as mentioned elsewhere in this thread you are free to offer the to help the other person. And again it's a good idea to be aware of the motive for offering the help but as long as the wish to help is sincere I don't think it can be bad to offer to support or help.

I was a marijuana addict for a number of years and through working with a 12-step program haven't needed to get high for seven years. In the 12-step programs there's a strong focus on addiction but also on co-dependency and one of the main take-aways is that you can't ever make someone else stop drinking/using or to put it in other words, you can't ever fix someone else's problem. The responsibility to stop what is bad for you is your own and you have to apply your own free will or it won't work. I personally think this is a very good illustration of the principle but it doesn't have to be a substance addiction - it applies equally to a psychological addiction, such as the White Knight Syndrome.

The problem is that when someone pushes that button that correlates to your deepest sense of lack and you unconsciously and automatically believe that by helping the person, that sense of lack will (miraculously...) go away. In such situations it's so difficult to remain aware. However, I've found that I recognise the dynamic being activated faster and faster and sometimes I can even catch myself and stop myself from reacting automatically. But it's like one down - five million to go :).

Where I do think it makes sense to make a distinction is if the person is not in a situation where they can be said to be responsible for their own lives or actions. Children, mentally ill or elderly people suffering from senile dementia, Alzheimers, etc. need people to make choices for them.
 
Thor said:
The problem is that when someone pushes that button that correlates to your deepest sense of lack and you unconsciously and automatically believe that by helping the person, that sense of lack will (miraculously...) go away. In such situations it's so difficult to remain aware. However, I've found that I recognise the dynamic being activated faster and faster and sometimes I can even catch myself and stop myself from reacting automatically. But it's like one down - five million to go :).

Hey Thor, thanks for your thoughts. I'd just like to ask... If help motivated by sympathy for the other person can be detrimental for learning of their lessons, is there another type of help that can be given? Something like the support given by this network? Is it empathy?
 
beetlemaniac said:
Thor said:
The problem is that when someone pushes that button that correlates to your deepest sense of lack and you unconsciously and automatically believe that by helping the person, that sense of lack will (miraculously...) go away. In such situations it's so difficult to remain aware. However, I've found that I recognise the dynamic being activated faster and faster and sometimes I can even catch myself and stop myself from reacting automatically. But it's like one down - five million to go :).

Hey Thor, thanks for your thoughts. I'd just like to ask... If help motivated by sympathy for the other person can be detrimental for learning of their lessons, is there another type of help that can be given? Something like the support given by this network? Is it empathy?

Hi BeetleManiac,
Well, I think that it comes down to two things: the true motivation for offering help and the true motivation for receiving it. I would say that if both offering and receiving help is fine if you're aware of your own programs. It could be empathy if the motivation to help is true but it could also be angling for personal gain in other situations.

But it's much easier to talk about in abstract terms than in concrete examples. If you're on a boat and one of your fellow passengers is drunk and falls over board I think you have a moral imperative to try to save him regardless of the "learning opportunity" that he is otherwise presented with. Other examples are less black and white but I think the best we can do is try to be as aware as possible when we offer to help and afterwards evaluate to the best of our ability if we did the right thing or not. In this way, the decision to help or not also becomes a learning opportunity for ourselves.

I think networking is a great example of offering your help but not trying to "force it" on the rescuee. But even in networking there are lot's of unconscious agendas of why people offer help. Just speaking for myself I obviously post things because I hope that other people will benefit from them. But there's also part of me that wants recognition from other Forum members for what I post and hope that it's "my piece of advice" that helps the person. These are not traits in me that I'm proud of - actually quite the opposite. But they're there, none-the-less. This doesn't mean that I should refrain from offering my perspectives on the Forum but it's important to bear in mind. A great thing about networking like this Forum is that if I, for instance, recommend something that's not good for someone else, then there'll be a number of other Forum members who will hopefully point that out. The person who's in a tight spot and looking for advice on how to handle a given situation might not catch it by themselves but the feedback from the other Forum members can help in navigating different suggestions. At the end of the day, however, it's still your own responsibility what you decide to do and you will face the consequences of your choice and possible learn the lesson - or not :).

These are just my perspectives, FWIW. Hope it makes sense :)
 
Oh boy...so much of the above information describes virtually every relationship I've ever had. Thank you all for posting this. I've got a lot more work to do, but hopefully this will help me avoid future disasters.
 
Thank you very much for that thread. I found it very helpful in travelling in my personal labyrinth of behavior patterns.
I wonder if the best help we can offer to the other people at some level is freeing them from false beliefs or illusions, even it is horribly painful for them...

Regarding the White Knight Syndrome, perhaps St George is a symbol of it.
Snipets from Wikipedia:

Saint George and the dragon
Eastern Orthodox depictions of Saint George slaying a dragon often include the image of the young maiden who looks on from a distance. The standard iconographic interpretation of the image icon is that the dragon represents both Satan (Rev. 12:9) and the monster from his life story. The young maiden is the wife of Diocletian, Alexandra. Thus the image, as interpreted through the language of Byzantine iconography, is an image of the martyrdom of the saint.[citation needed]
The episode of St. George and the Dragon was a legend[29] brought back with the Crusaders and retold with the courtly appurtenances belonging to the genre of Romance. The earliest known depiction of the legend is from early eleventh-century Cappadocia (in the iconography of the Eastern Orthodox Church, George had been depicted as a soldier since at least the seventh century); the earliest known surviving narrative text is an eleventh-century Georgian text.
In the fully developed Western version, which developed as part of the Golden Legend, a dragon or crocodile makes its nest at the spring that provides water for the city of "Silene" (perhaps modern Cyrene in Libya or the city of Lydda in the Holy Land, depending on the source). Consequently, the citizens have to dislodge the dragon from its nest for a time, to collect water. To do so, each day they offer the dragon at first a sheep, and if no sheep can be found, then a maiden is the best substitute for one. The victim is chosen by drawing lots. One day, this happens to be the princess. The monarch begs for her life to be spared, but to no avail. She is offered to the dragon, but then Saint George appears on his travels. He faces the dragon, protects himself with the sign of the Cross,[30] slays the dragon, and rescues the princess. The citizens abandon their ancestral paganism and convert to Christianity.
The dragon motif was first combined with the standardised Passio Georgii in Vincent of Beauvais' encyclopaedic Speculum Historiale and then in Jacobus de Voragine's "Golden Legend", which guaranteed its popularity in the later Middle Ages as a literary and pictorial subject.
The parallels with Perseus, Cetus and Andromeda are inescapable. In the allegorical reading, the dragon embodies a suppressed pagan cult.[31] The story has other roots that predate Christianity. Examples such as Sabazios, the sky father, who was usually depicted riding on horseback, and Zeus's defeat of Typhon the Titan in Greek mythology, along with examples from Germanic and Vedic traditions, have led a number of historians, such as Loomis, to suggest that George is a Christianized version of older deities in Indo-European culture, or at least a suitably Christian substitute for one of them.

(…) Traces of the cult of Saint George in England pre-date the Norman Conquest in the eleventh century;[citation needed] by the fourteenth century the saint had been declared both the patron saint and the protector of the royal family.[43]
There is a tradition in the Holy Land of Christians and Muslim going to an Eastern Orthodox shrine of St. George at Beith Jala, Jews also attend the site in the belief that the prophet Elijah was buried there. This is testified to by Elizabeth Finn in 1866, where she wrote, "St. George killed the dragon in this country Palestine; and the place is shown close to Beirut (Lebanon). Many churches and convents are named after him. The church at Lydda is dedicated to St. George: so is a convent near Bethlehem, and another small one just opposite the Jaffa gate; and others beside.

(…) The Arabs believe that St. George can restore mad people to their senses; and to say a person has been sent to St. George's, is equivalent to saying he has been sent to a madhouse.
 
RedFox said:
People become rescuers because they have a need to be liked

I did a little reading and wanted to say that I think this is probably a secondary effect/symptom rather than a primary cause of White Knight Syndrome.

_http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/amy-winehouse-and-white-knight-syndrome/
[..]
I first noticed this in my Women in American Society course nearly 20 years ago. One of the requirements of the class is to do a research paper on the life of a dead American woman whom the student regards as particularly significant. When I first started teaching the course, there were no limits on whom the students could pick as long as the subjects were dead and had lived the bulk of their lives in the United States.

But what I noticed those first few semesters was that the most popular choices read like a Who’s Who of the beautiful, the talented, and the hopelessly self-destructive: Marilyn Monroe, Jayne Mansfield, Janis Joplin, Judy Garland, Billie Holliday and so forth. Far more students seemed interested in writing about those who had lived short and tragic lives than in those who had had longer and happier careers. I was stunned.

Though the majority of my students were women, it was the male students who were especially likely to pick one of these doomed celebrities over a happier, longer-lived historical figure. It wasn’t just laziness either. For every paper on Eleanor Roosevelt, I got two on the suicidal Sylvia Plath, though in the pre-Google age, it was easier to find information on the former at the local library.

What was going on, I realized, was the academic equivalent of White Knight Syndrome. White Knight Syndrome (WKS) is the male heterosexual equivalent of Bad Boy Syndrome, and in my experience, it’s every bit as common – thought much less frequently discussed. “Nice guys” often complain, loudly, that women are attracted to self-destructive, self-obsessed “bad boys” who don’t treat them well. But the masculine corollary gets much less attention, even if it’s at least as common.

Guys with White Knight Syndrome don’t just fall in love with drug-addicted superstars (or self-absorbed and vulnerable femme fatales like Casey Anthony). WKS manifests itself most commonly in the romantic choices these men make, as they choose to pursue (and attempt to rescue) troubled and unhappy young women.

Many men in our culture find themselves drawn to the role of the White Knight. With almost military precision, they seek out young women who are emotionally vulnerable and wounded, frequently with backgrounds of sexual abuse. These rescuers are often eager to protect women whom they imagine are desperately in need of protection. They are outraged at what other men have done (and may still be doing) to the women they love.
White Knights almost always imagine themselves to be different from every other man. While other men (fathers, brothers, exes, strangers) have neglected, betrayed, and taken advantage of “his girl,” the White Knight believes that he is radically different.

In his own mind, the guy with WKS doesn’t want to exploit the troubled young women he pursues (or in the case of celebrity obsessions, admires from afar). He wants to save them. They are his noble cause; loving them (despite their often erratic and self-destructive behavior) helps him to maintain a heroic self-image. Only a very valiant man would put up with what he puts up with! Only a truly rare guy could endure the heartache that he does, all for the sake of saving a young woman whom he imagines is incapable of saving herself.

Guys with WKS have a variety of motivations. Some grew up in families with self-destructive mothers, aunts or sisters whom they were unable to save from addiction. Now that they themselves are adults, White Knights hope that romantic devotion will be the “missing piece” that will turn them from ineffectual, heartbroken bystanders into heroes.

Other White Knights are guys who adopt rescuing as a kind of competition strategy. As one of my students once told me, “I knew I’d never be the best-looking or the most athletic. But I figured I could love harder and stronger than any other man out there.” This becomes less about the rescue of a flesh-and-blood woman and more about proving that the White Knight is “not like the other guys.” Men with WKS like to think of themselves as rare exceptions in a world filled with abusive or emotionally toxic men.

But the biggest emotional payoff of WKS isn’t the fantasy of being the one to rescue the self-destructive damsel. Rather, by devoting single-minded attention to those whom they imagine to be so much worse off than themselves, White Knights get to avoid taking a hard look inwards. Whether it’s focusing on a drunk and addicted pop star or a suicidal girlfriend, rescuers dodge the often painful and challenging inner work that they need to do so badly.

Many men tried to rescue Amy Winehouse from her disease; in the end, they failed. These guys – and the millions of men who imagine they would have done better in their place – need reminding that chemical dependency is often stronger than love. Without losing all compassion for the victims of addictions, White Knights need to stop falling in love with vulnerability and weakness. And they need to start falling in love with strength, stability, and the will to live.

Being liked doesn't fix the 'desperate need to be liked/saved' - which then gets projected outwards as a 'desperate need to save others'.
If at the core of your buried beliefs about yourself you perceive yourself to be fundamentally broken failure/beyond redemption you can be driven to pursue those that truly are beyond saving - each time you fail you are then brought face to face with your fundamental (faulty/unquestioned) self image and the feelings that are tied to that.
So fundamentally it's projection and avoidance (i.e. the best coping strategy you've been able to develop) of your own feelings of being beyond redemption/help - which ties back to self-compassion and learning to help/support/care for yourself.

For me it wasn't about being liked - it was about avoiding the pain of not liking myself, and trying to replace that (projection) with just one person who vaguely liked me.

_http://gettinbetter.com/perfect.html
[..]We're all acquainted with this splitting reflex in Borderlines, but we usually fail to recognize this tendency within ourselves. The Caregiver, fixer/rescuer type who frequently attaches to personality disordered lovers, has virtually split-off all darker feelings, thoughts and personality features from their own emotional repertoire. They've discarded dimensions that even hint at what they had observed, growing up with a weak, impaired or punitive parent. So pitied or reviled was their mother or father for these facets, the developing child feels the need to totally rid him/herself of those traits--which doesn't leave much room for a balanced or multi-dimensional persona to unfold[..]
For the Non-Borderline, projection becomes an especially sticky wicket, when he or she assigns their own discarded facets to the ex-BPD partner or lover. The People Pleaser/rescuer has detached/dissociated from vulnerable/fragile facets and feelings, which are automatically displaced onto the Borderline. I can't count how many men and women I've worked with, who can feel sorry for their Borderline (no matter how mean, pernicious or crazy-making they've been), but they can't muster any compassion for themselves!

When emotions are not allowed to exist within the Non's personality, they're foisted onto the BPD lover. If we won't feel sorry for ourselves, we'll project it onto somebody else. Thus, debilitating guilt prevents us from responding to our intrinsic needs, if we believe our Borderline might have a bad reaction or feeling about it--and time and time again, we're walking on eggshells, and betraying our own feelings, needs and senses.
[..]

Another document on coaching (so I'm starting to think that White Knight Syndrome is probably closely tied to seeing yourself as a Teacher/Coach too, perhaps it's a role you assume as a Rescuer?).
_http://www.insead.edu/facultyresearch/research/doc.cfm?did=46469
Leadership Coaching and Rescuer Syndrome
[..]
The Rescuer Syndrome
People in the helping professions need to be as “normal” as possible. That is, they
should strive to understand and alleviate their own personal difficulties, and any
dysfunctional behavior patterns that could muddy their outlook on life, so they can see
their clients’ disturbances and problems more clearly. If not, helpers may run foul of
their own needs by becoming hopelessly mired in transference and countertransference reactions—acting out the problems of the past in the present (Kets de
Vries, 2006). When this happens, people who are ostensibly helping others deal with
difficulties find themselves having to address issues that are too close to unresolved,
conflictual issues in their own lives. The Rescuer Syndrome manifests itself when
helping turns into a compulsion based on one central, but very flawed conviction:
“The only way to get what I need is to do what other people want.” Thus helpers don’t
help others out of choice; on the contrary, they seem impelled to enter into and
prolong a kind of rescuer-victim relationship.

Many of us have lifelong practice in reflexively attuning to others’ needs. Risk enters
when a conscious, caretaking response transmutes into an over-learned, compulsive
reaction. It is probably fair to say that people suffering from the Rescuer Syndrome
are suffering from an addiction, in the same way as eating, smoking, drug taking,
alcohol, or sex can become addictive. To outsiders, rescuing behavior can resemble
some kind of heroic martyrdom. However, there is an upside to it. A closer look at its
underlying dynamics may reveal that acting in this way gives rescuers an excuse to
avoid dealing with their own problems.

Paradoxically, the more rescuers demonstrate to all and sundry their talent for solving
other people’s problems, the more problems will be presented to them. Although these
requests may make them feel wanted, eventually they become too much of a good
thing. Deep down, rescuers are participating inactivities that they don’t really want to
do any longer, but they fear upsetting others by saying “No.”
A disproportionate need to be liked—to be seen to be helping—is usually related to a
shaky self-image. Rescuers fear that looking after number one will be perceived as
unkind, uncaring, and selfish.
For them, saying “No” is associated with ending a
relationship; “others” will become angry or reject them. {If the rescuer has split off part of themselves, they have already rejected part of themselves. The part that is rejected will scream as loud as it can to be 'heard' and is thus perceived immensely painful and as such should be avoided at all costs. Massive amount of energy is spend holding it at bay, and from it's side shouting to be heard} Their wish to be liked makes
it very hard for rescuers to set limits to others and maintain appropriate boundaries.
There is also a sense of immediacy in the way rescuers like to help people. Although
there are often no instant solutions to the problems that are presented to them,
rescuers often feel inadequate if they don’t provide concrete, even instant advice.
Unfortunately, in their zeal to be helpful, they may create new difficulties, even going
so far as imagining that everyone they encounter has problems. They add to their own
misery with feelings of guilt for not accomplishing the unrealistic goals they tend to
set for others.

In many situations, all that people who ask for help really want is to be listened to—
they do not want to be told what to do. {The rescuer has probably split off the part of themselves that needs to be listened too - so to allow another to be listened to would cause them to face that in themselves - and the pain of that struggle to avoid it} Providing immediate solutions may not be the
best thing to do. Rescuers have forgotten that the purpose of helping is to help others
discover their own course of action.
[..]
Rescuer burnout
With too much helping going on, the helper may be faced with diminishing returns.
The emotional labor associated with helping drains energy (Edelwich and Brodsky,
1980; Lakin Phillips, 1983; Hale, 1997; Thompson, 1998; O’Halloran and Linton,
2000; Miller, 2001). It results in a progressive loss of idealism and purpose. Coaches
who find themselves in this position become cynical, tired, and apathetic. Their
positive outlook and work effort are compromised. Worse, they may unconsciously
contaminate their coachees with their own sense of failure and burnout.


Rescuers feel that, at all costs, they need to suppress or reframe their own negative
qualities, such as anger, selfishness, greed, rivalry, envy, spite, and vindictiveness.

The exertion this requires is extremely tiring. While they may display a positive
exterior, under the surface there will be a lot of resentment about the show they have
to maintain. And their exhaustion is compounded by the negation of their own needs
and their unwillingness to take time out to revitalize their own energy.

Rescuers’ frustration and disillusionment are increased by their feeling that they don’t
receive the gratitude they deserve. It may cross their mind that the people they are
trying to help don’t really appreciate what they are offering, or worse, don’t seem to
want to be helped. Eventually a point is reached where rescuers fear they are no
longer doing anyone any good.
Other indicators of rescuer burnout are feelings of guilt and self-hatred associated
with less interest in rescuing people. Rescuer withdrawal is symptomatic of this state
of mind. There can also be an increase in “projection”—rescuers start blaming the
people they are supposed to help for various misdoings.

Eventually, rescuers (having become increasingly desperate) may reach the point
where they terminate the rescue missions that are stalling. They may even deny and
conceal the problems of their troubled client in an effort to find a way out. While this
is going on, anxiety, emotional detachment, or depression are common. Substance
abuse is not unusual. The chronic stress they are exposed to manifests itself in
physical problems, including high blood pressure, diabetes, back age, digestive
disorders, and a compromised immune system (Payne and Firth-Cozens, 1987; Heim,
1991; Ramirez et al., 1996). These physical stresses may even reduce the life
expectancy of rescuers.
Apart from these psychological and physiological problems, people suffering from the
Rescuer Syndrome may also lose a sense of boundaries. By acting out some of their
own fantasies with the people they are supposed to help, they may find themselves
into other kinds of trouble. In any form of therapeutic situation—including
coaching—there is always the temptation to engage in unethical behavior. Sexual
transgression is a major hazard. People in the helping professions should never forget
that, as helpers, they wield extraordinary emotional powers.
[..]

Gosh the two quotes above are so me, unfortunately. But at least now I have come across recocnizing it purely due to the way it is written. Before I had all the co-dependency books and they rang a bell with me but didn't help me decipher where it came from! Yes I had a very controlling and somewhat punitive father who was needy and jealous of my mum. Yes, my mum was weak and made snide remarks but didn't stand up for herself, though I now see she was very manipulative and 'deserved' the bickering we had to constantly put up with and pretend we were not visible in the process. Yes our emotions were not taken into account nor were we given time and space to express our feelings. Is their behaviour narcissistic?

This has opened up a lot for me to work on now that previously I knew subconsciously there were all these fragmented bits but too many to piece together for any coherent meaning.

Oddly enough I was with an energy healer today for lunch. She said I needed zinc - which Laura had previously told me, but I had recently stopped. Also that I have to learn to say NO to people as they put upon me and wear out my energies. (This is true - I am worn out again, but also my boyfriend wanted his brother to stay here when I actually have a house move ahead of me so more stuff has to be moved into where I am now. I was warned last week that I had a lot of negative people around me - too true - within three days all kicked off and I became the victim (physically hit by a girlfriend of two years I couldn't fully trust as I felt she stabbed me in the back, plus I was practically her only 'friend' because she had pushed anyone else away through malicious behaviour! And I was staying the course because I felt sorry for her for what she was going through with court cases due to the split up of her boyfriend who was trying to take her house from her. Sounds like I have typical White Knight Syndrome. How blind I must be, but at least I know where my vulnerability comes from now, that last of self esteem/self compassion. I also recognize the stage (only now) where you get so anxious and cannot take any more. So thanks to the above quote so thank you Redfox for finding the right words/quote and Laura for starting the thread (which until I got to here, the penny had not dropped and I must have been in denial).

Last night some more denials came to light re my son. (I was counselling my boyfriend on not blaming himself re grief as he was involved in getting the police to look for his ex-boss after receiving a phone call from a friend of the guy, only to find his ex boss dead from an overdose yesterday).

So I guess it would be high time to post in the swamp!
 
Thank you all for your inputs, I feel glad to be able to add something to this thread. (It's like a feeling of "hey cool I might have something to add to the game and play with the buddies!") This whole discussion reminds me of this excerpt from the Parable of the Coach :

Boris Mouravieff, Gnosis (Vol. 1, pp. 3–4) said:
Salvation may however present itself. Another coachman, this one quite awake, may pass by the same route and observe the coach in its sad situation. If he is not much in a hurry, he may perhaps stop to help the coach that is in distress. He will first help the horses hold back the coach from slipping down the slope. Then he will awaken the sleeping driver and together with him will try to bring the coach back to the road. He will lend fodder and money. He might also give advice on the care of the horses, the address of an inn and a coach repairer, and indicate the proper route to follow.

It will be up to the assisted coachman afterward to profit, by his own efforts, from the help and the information received. It will be incumbent on him from this point on to put all things in order and, open eyed, to follow the path he had abandoned.

He will above all fight against sleep, for if he falls asleep again, and if the coach leaves the road again and again finds itself in the same danger, he cannot hope that chance will smile upon him a second time; that another coachman will pass at that moment and at that place and come to his aid once again.
 

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