The deliberate corruption of the education system.

FireShadow

Jedi Master
dannybananny said:
And, to reiterate, I make a distinction between method (how we teach) and content (what we teach). In fact my whole point was that the speaker seemed to be blending method and content and implying the methods were as bad as the content.

I agree with that, but teacher can by changing methods(all methods aren't bad, but i don't know how it is exactly in USA) make something interesting that is under what we teach and what we teach is what state decides and sad thing is that you can't do nothing in matter of what we learn until the people open their eyes.

I still ask, what is wrong with presenting information to students in a variety of ways so as to reach more students? What is wrong with knowing that "Johnny" is an intuitive, visual learner? What is wrong with using this knowledge to present information in a manner he can best receive it?

Nothing is wrong, it's good thing but it's not possible in this world yet. The system wants their left brain weight lifters!

Actually, according to the documentary, that is what she was saying: That they are targeting learning styles in children (at least in many of the States here in USA) - But to instill obedience and conformity rather than to teach "reading, writing, and 'rithmetic". She seemed to take umbrage at the methods as well as the "education goal". Or it seemed so to me.

(LOL - "left-brain weight lifters" - Sorry, the topic is not funny, I only laugh at the term, it just tickled me. )
 

FireShadow

Jedi Master
After my last post, I went off to wash some dishes and ponder further.

It occurred to me that perhaps my "attachment" to the idea of targeting learning styles prevented me from understanding accurately what the speaker was saying. I mean as a Special Ed teacher, she must use some of those techniques herself. Perhaps she meant that they are "even using otherwise beneficial techniques to brainwash our children". I don't know, but it just did not seem clear to me as I watched the documentary. I still don't know if I just did not understand what she was getting at, or if she did indeed take umbrage at the methods as well as the content.

At any rate, it does seem a ponerized use (to teach obedience and conformity) of "an otherwise beneficial technique" to me. And apparently it is covert (they won't even let parents know what is going on) rather than overt so that the manner they are ponerizing the technique is itself pathological.

One of the factors that I think led to my interpretation of her point, was that she seemed also to object to new "the student will demonstrate (including remedial training)" approach to education versus the old "the teacher will teach (and the students will succeed or fail as they will)" approach. She seemed to want to return to the old way. Perhaps, I equated her seeming desire to return to the old way in this as indicative that she also wanted to return to the old way in methods as well. Perhaps that skewed my thinking and I heard "what I expected to hear".

And, again, I think she is using black/white thinking. I am not so sure the "old ways" were all that great either. Perhaps something more in balance would be better, like: "The teacher will teach (not brainwash), overtly (not covertly) targeting the student's learning styles, and the students will learn and demonstrate (with some remedial teaching)".

I think I will watch the documentary again when I can find some time. Just to see if I can determine the difference.

This has been a good exercise for me.
 

PopHistorian

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I agree that the video is a must-see, and you'll probably want to send it off every teacher and parent you know. And they say there are no conspiracies! So many tricks of the psychopaths' trade are on display to ensure the outcome they want. This particular outrage should be more tangible, able to wake up any teacher or parent who's had a brush with the profound inflexibility and seemingly brain-dead absence of logic in the system. I well know two former public-school teachers and they've had plenty of horror stories over the years, but never seemed to guess at the source of their trials beyond the petty-tyrant gate-keepers and enforcers that actually show their faces. The only protection, as usual, is knowledge and acting on it.
 

luke wilson

The Living Force
I am sure we've all read the articles about how SE Asian countries top the educational charts.

Well, as with most stories, there are multiple sides.

_http://www.livescience.com/18023-tiger-parenting-tough-kids.html

"Tiger mom" and Yale professor Amy Chua caused an uproar last year with a Wall Street Journal article about the superiority of her strict, Chinese-style version of parenting. Now, research suggests that critics of the piece may have had a point: High-achieving Chinese-American children do, in fact, struggle more with depression, stress and low self-esteem than their equally high-achieving European-American counterparts, and the reason involves parenting style.

_http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/22/china-education-exams-parents-rebel

Yet Chinese parents and educators see their own system as corrupt, dehumanising, pressurised and unfair. In fact, many are looking to the west for answers.

_http://www.salon.com/2014/03/15/why_is_suicide_so_popular_in_south_korea_partner/

SEOUL, South Korea — The headlines are regular and morbid: a shamed celebrity or politician takes her own life, a student leaps off a bridge after being rejected from a first-class university, and an ailing grandfather commits suicide to relieve the financial burden on the family.


_http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15331921

But the real question is why this is happening at all in a country that is richer, more stable and more influential than at any time in its history?
South Korea is now the world's 12th largest economy. A place where you can surf the internet on the underground, dance the night away in a salsa club, and buy a decent cappuccino on your way to work. And yet people here seem less happy than during the years of hardship after the Korean War.
Kang-ee Hong, a child psychologist, says that over the past 40 years, South Korean parents have abandoned traditional values in favour of one single goal.
"From the beginning of childhood, the importance of money and achievement are emphasised by their parents, so they feel that unless you are successful in school grades and a good job, good prestigious college, you're not successful, and the parents behave as if 'you're not my child'," Dr Hong said.
Even young children typically work from early morning until late at night, and often at weekends too, to get into the best university they can and eventually secure a well-paying job. The pressure is intense, and the routine relentless - for years on end.
Dr Hong says that, for parents, the pressure to push their children even harder has led to them overcoming the stigma of going to a psychiatrist. But, he says, they often come for the wrong reasons.
They come to me to help their child work harder, he says, "to have better grades by being treated for ADHD (Attention-Deficit-Hyperactivity-Disorder) - because the school performance is so important".

Next time you read an article celebrating the Asian education system, keep in mind the other side of the story. They top the charts but they are far from happy about doing so.
 

Eulenspiegel

Jedi Master
I assume you mean the East Asian education system. SE Asian countries would be Indonesia, Singapore, and the Philippines and so on.

And yes, being half Chinese but having grown up in Germany(and presently living in Taiwan), it gives me a good chuckle when I see people celebrating that sort of value system.

When they are kids, Chinese kids spend an insane amount of time on memorizing things, just like people learned Classical Chinese for the imperial exams back then. This leads to better scores on exams but something that is markedly obvious to me, as someone who has been growing up on both the East and the West, is the difference between Western and Eastern people when it comes to mental and emotional development.

It takes students a lot longer to grow up here in Taiwan/China. It is completely normal here if a 25 year old person is still quite childish.

There is no emphasis on creativity and spirituality here. It's crass materialism with most of the local politics focusing on copying the worst the West has to offer.

It's fertile ground for psychopaths running pathocracies. I was unsatisfied with the system of education in Germany, but the Chinese one is even worse. It produces overachievers that are unevenly developed and that will likely work corporate slave jobs(it's hard meeting up with people here since they're busy with either school or work all their life) in order to pay for massively overpriced housing costs(most major Chinese/Taiwanese cities are in a critical situation when it comes to living space, which makes most apartments unaffordable since they cost more than the average house in most Western countries, yet the local salaries are below those in the West)

The education system and indoctrination with questionable life values creates an ever growing movement of people that have simply given up- what currently happens in Japan(a lot of guys simply giving up on the idea of finding a well paid job, no interest in dating or marriage, staying at home, shutting themselves in and developing weird habits like the "otakus") is quite probably a preview of what is to come for the rest of East Asia.

You also have to keep in mind that countries like South Korea are quite proud of having come so far(in terms of infrastructure) after having been nearly destroyed after the war. This creates a very materialistic mindset where people are very enamored with the idea of the Western middle class lifestyle, and as such, Western status symbols become very important. I think it will take some time before more than a few people become disillusioned with this set of values.
 

luke wilson

The Living Force
I met a S.Korean girl who told me what passes for beauty there... she showed me pictures of what are considered beautiful girls and they looked so thin and almost doll like. She also told me how they are pushed to get eye surgery i.e. taught to be uncomfortable with themselves. I thought this was really sad. She also mentioned the high suicide rates, the alcoholism and obsession with karaoke (both happening in combination)...

PS: I have to admit I dont know much about Asia and therefore I'm quite ignorant.
 

Eulenspiegel

Jedi Master
That's a stereotype here in Asia. You go to S. Korea to get plastic surgery. And that ideal Korean girl also happens to be the ideal Chinese or Japanese girl.
They not only get double eyelid surgery(to make eyes look bigger), but also nose jobs and sometimes even so far as sawing half of their jaws off( I kid you not, it's about getting the V-shaped jawline)

Take a look at this famous picture of the finalists of a Korean beauty contest:

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1105654/thumbs/o-MISS-KOREA-CONTESTANTS-570.jpg?15

There is an unhealthy obsession with image that permeates these societies and especially the South Korean one seems to be tightly controlled by its own pop media(Korean dramas, Korean pop music)

This also affects the guys there; about $1.5 billion worth of local beauty product sales are now coming from products for men. Products like toners, essence, moisturizers and the like, guys have started using guy-liner(eye-liner for guys). Like in Japan there is an ever increasing trend of feminized men.

You'll be judged heavily for your looks there and your looks can make or break your chances of getting a job, so not only dating problems may explain why they're getting so obsessed with cosmetic products and plastic surgery.

Signs of an unhealthy and pathocratic society, if you ask me.
 

luke wilson

The Living Force
Wow.

Now this is not a criticism, but in S.Korean language for everything, there is a way you express to a friend or to a person in authority. I don't necessarily think this is bad, but the impression I got was that the society was quite regimented in terms of the social structure. I have heard 2 separate accounts for example of how women are expected to act and don't share the same privileges as men despite a woman currently leading the country. I imagine this is coming from tradition but as you say, there is now a heavy western influence penetrating the country. Though also, I got the impression that the western influence isn't necessarily undoing tradition, if anything, it's building upon structures that were already in place, meaning that the s.korean population is getting a double whammy i.e. imposition from tradition and imposition from western materialism. All of these combining to deadly effect where the country is now over populated, I heard about 50m and growing, ridiculously high competition for jobs due to the sheer population size, obsession with pop culture and materialism plus a regimented social structure where members of the society essentially are disconnected from each other at least in an emotional way. This is obviously a generalisation but that is the impression I got.

Nonetheless, I hear S.Korea is a really beautiful place to visit and surprisingly not expensive, contrary to what I was thinking...

I wish I knew more the history as it looks like they had a royal system back in the day and whatnot... looks like Japan did them no good and obviously the war...
 

Wyatt Shipley

The Force is Strong With This One
IT LOOKS LIKE SEVERAL HAVE JUMPED THE QUE; THAT'S OK THIS IS ABOUT THAILAND Just before posting this I got a warning that 2-new Replies/Posts have appeared
Eulenspiegel said:
I assume you mean the East Asian education system. SE Asian countries would be Indonesia, Singapore, and the Philippines and so on.

There is no emphasis on creativity and spirituality here. It's crass materialism with most of the local politics focusing on copying the worst the West has to offer.

It's fertile ground for psychopaths running pathocracies. I was unsatisfied with the system of education in Germany, but the Chinese one is even worse. It produces overachievers that are unevenly developed and that will likely work corporate slave jobs(it's hard meeting up with people here since they're busy with either school or work all their life) in order to pay for massively overpriced housing costs(most major Chinese/Taiwanese cities are in a critical situation when it comes to living space, which makes most apartments unaffordable since they cost more than the average house in most Western countries, yet the local salaries are below those in the West)

The education system and indoctrination with questionable life values creates an ever growing movement of people that have simply given up- what currently happens in Japan(a lot of guys simply giving up on the idea of finding a well paid job, no interest in dating or marriage, staying at home, shutting themselves in and developing weird habits like the "otakus") is quite probably a preview of what is to come for the rest of East Asia.
.

In Thailand the educational system has tried to adopt western style, synthesized through Thai Social Norms. Having taught at private and public schools, I was quite dismayed to see students grabbing hold of the worst Western Society had to offer as if somehow different is better. Like most Asian societies there is a lot of memorization which can be overwhelming to many students. 1st through 3rd Grade the students must memorize 68/72 vowels and consonants, Basic Math, writing of the letters, (Some schools) English, history, religion and social studies. I have seen many students fall behind and I often stayed later so the students could teach me and in so-doing, teach themselves.

It is true what you say about adults and students becoming/being socially challenged and there are a great many explanations such as society is changing too quickly, TV/Computers has programmed so many to expect instant gratification, boys don't have to really grow-up and mature until 14-16 years of age and then go to the temple for several months and return home a Man. Many are unable to make the jump, some fail at the temple (bringing disgrace to the family) and some have a meltdown do to social, Buddhist instruction, Family and Educational stress all at once. There are no-easy answers to any of this as the Thai Economy is not doing very well, competition to succeed for what is available may have caused some to give up. Tough, tough problem I have spoken to many Thai's here in Southern California and they are caught having a job here, but probably not one there (Thailand). I could not find work here, but found it there (Thailand). Sheesh, So it goes.
Best of Everything, Wyatt
 

luke wilson

The Living Force
Here is another one...

My buddy who is white, blue eyed, blonde, the works... he travelled round east asia for awhile, mainly for work... you know what he told me! He was seen in a truly positive light, such that women would throw themselves at him... When he was walking down the streets, kids would come running at him in excitement etc... All this he told me simply because of how he looked. Ain't that just something!

I always wonder why those cartoons that are so popular in that part of asia have characters with mostly caucasian features, blonde hair and whatnot, when the population that is mainly watching all that stuff don't have those features... Go figure...
 

luc

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
I followed the discussion about "tiger mom" a bit, and I'm pretty sure this was another "divide and conquer" attempt - it really divided the discussion between those favoring a "laissez-faire" approach to education/parenting and those who feel "we have gone too soft, a hard hand is what children need". As always, I think it's not that simple and not that black and white. Fact is, the Western educational system has completely lost it, and is dumbing us down now big time. And in some areas I think there is way too much "laissez-faire" in Western culture (coming from the so-called "Antiauthoritarian movement" in the 60's/70's), in other areas, there is way too much authoritarianism. As always, it seems that the PTB managed to create a mindset that combines the worst of all worlds - laissez-faire where respect and order would be needed, authoritative where individual freedom and flexibility is essential.

As for Asia, I really don't know enough to have an opinion. I listen sometimes to Radio China International on shortwave though, and there was a program about the Chinese educational system and that there are initiatives now to lessen the burden a bit for the students - taking a softer approach towards education. I found that very interesting. It is said that the Russians are very highly educated in general, and from what I understand the educational system there is more rigid than in the west, while at the same time less obsessed with "applied science"/stuff that can be marketed or used in the military, and more open to the "big questions". But that's also only hearsay for me... fwiw.
 

Wyatt Shipley

The Force is Strong With This One
luke wilson said:
Here is another one...

My buddy who is white, blue eyed, blonde, the works... he traveled round east asia for awhile, mainly for work... you know what he told me! He was seen in a truly positive light, such that women would throw themselves at him... When he was walking down the streets, kids would come running at him in excitement etc... All this he told me simply because of how he looked. Ain't that just something!

I always wonder why those cartoons that are so popular in that part of asia have characters with mostly caucasian features, blonde hair and whatnot, when the population that is mainly watching all that stuff don't have those features... Go figure...

Wyatt here: Yeah, In Thailand it is a combination social status, economic status (or the perceived access to money), perhaps a subconscious desire to share the gene pool and a combination of other reasons. But! Buyer beware, just because a beautiful Thai women falls in love with you doesn't mean she doesn't have a hidden agenda. There is a lot of pressure from the immediate family and the extended family to share the wealth, that being the farang. Farang is a neutral word for Caucasian Westerner and then in Thailand there are social reasons as to why Light Skinned people are considered attractive. I have traveled around that part of the world and compared to all Thailand (in the 1990's was my favorite) but things changed into the Next Millennium. There are many reasons for those changes, but a Blue Eyed, Blonde handsome Dude would still be considered exotic. Of course Knowing the Language of any foreign country would be important along with the customs and a "Lonely Planet Guide to Thailand" or "Culture Shock".

Back to the original premise, Yes the educational system in Thailand is rather poor as most foreign teachers realized and there really is no-way that the system can be corrected. In fact, Thailand ranks 117 in the world as far as education is concerned. There are many social factors that have created the situation and if education does not offer any immediate rewards, what's the point?

A Mind is a Terrible Thing to Waste, Wyatt :cool2: :phaser:
 

Eulenspiegel

Jedi Master
In my experience, most women that choose to marry a Western foreigner do that in order to escape from their own society's expectations(as foreign men are seen as being more lenient/open minded). Likewise for the young Western guys that work as English teachers in Asia but struggle to find work in their own countries.

So you have Western guys with a fetish for Asians who go for Asian girls with a White guy fetish. They are serving each other's needs.
However, this "White god" syndrome comes with its downside, namely that most foreigners realise that social integration hardly or never happens, should they decide to stick around.

You are stuck in the "foreigner" role, even if you become fluent in the language. I think this is largely the case with homogeneous societies that are not really used to foreigners(which contributes to their exoticness i.e. rare genes)

This extra attention also ultimately becomes annoying. This superficial attraction can never substitute for a real emotional connection. Ultimately you want to be taken seriously as another human being, not as a "token foreigner".

About the Tiger Moms: I've always thought that they put so much pressure on their children because they want to live out their dreams through their children's achievements. Of course, this is just a theory.
 

cs21

Padawan Learner
In the same way, I would like to show you this video on education that I found very interesting in the way it is introduced. Idriss Aberkane is a french bio engineer who grew up in a suburb in Paris, not really famous. He is more and more known espacially for his works on biomimetics. He wrote a book titled "free your brain" and I think he is a good example for anyone who has difficulty with the current education and the way we are conditioned to learn... He develops also the concept of "knowledge economy" :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu7pdEFsCRo and his website : http://idrissaberkane.org/index.php/en/
 
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