The Dodleston Messages / Vertical Plane

[Olivierlejardinier]

Read a book by a scientist (Michael Persinger) called

Space-Time Transients and Unusual Events that explains how the Verticial Plane events could happen!​

Hi dasteph, welcome and thanks for sharing, found the following posts on Michael Persinger:

Atlantis
neurotheology videos on youtube

Since this is your first post, may I suggest you to write an introduction in the newbie section of the forum, nothing personal needed, but we're all curious of what may have lead you here and how you found the forum... The best we know each other, the best we can share.
Again, Welcome !!

 

[KJS]

Yesterday, while driving, I listened to a New Thinking Allowed podcast on this topic. It revealed that, even after all these years, researchers are still actively examining the case. I then used my Puppy AI to run a comprehensive web search on its current status. After that, I asked the AI to pattern‑match the findings with Cassiopaean transcripts, and the results got interesting: it surfaced passages from Ark’s work that hinted at the main entity’s name. I’ve redacted part of the report because it was quite lengthy.

2.1 The Chronology of Contact​

The events in Dodleston began with simple poltergeist activity—stacking of objects, inexplicable footprints—before migrating to the resident BBC Micro computer. The initial messages were ostensibly from Thomas Harden ("Lukas"), writing in an archaic form of Early Modern English. These messages were characterized by fear, confusion, and a religious interpretation of the technology, which Harden referred to as the "Box of Lights".

It was only after the human residents (Ken Webster, Debbie, and their associate Gary) attempted to deepen the engagement that the signal was intercepted. The new communicator was distinct. It typed in standard, albeit sterile, English. It exhibited no confusion regarding the technology; in fact, it claimed to be facilitating the channel.

2.2 The Profile of Entity 2109​

The entity identified itself as "2109." It is crucial to note that it never claimed this was a year of origin in a simple sense. Rather, "2109" was a label, a designation of identity or location.

• The Collective Voice: The entity frequently used the plural "We," suggesting a collective consciousness, a bureaucratic agency, or a "system" rather than a singular individual. This parallels the title of Gudder’s paper, "Systems of Observables," which deals with sets or collections of measurement operators rather than singular instances.
• The Administrator of Realities: 2109 claimed to be regulating the interaction between 1546 and 1985 to prevent contamination or damage to the "Vertical Plane"—the barrier separating the timelines. It acted as an experimenter, and the humans (Ken and Lukas) were the variables.
• Tachyon Existence: The entity claimed to inhabit a "Tachyon universe". In theoretical physics, tachyons are hypothetical particles that travel faster than light. Consequently, they move backward in time or exist outside the constraints of linear causality. This gave 2109 a "panoptic" view of the timeline, allowing it to see the past (Lukas) and the present (Ken) simultaneously.

2.4 Predictive Anomalies​

One of the most cited proofs of 2109's advanced nature was the prediction regarding Fermat's Last Theorem. In 1985, the theorem was unproven. 2109 intimated that the proof would be found within Ken Webster's lifetime and would be "simple" yet elusive, or involve a sudden realization. Andrew Wiles announced his proof in 1993 (finalized in 1995), well within the predicted window. This inclusion of high-level mathematics in the entity's dialogue indicates that the source of the messages (whether paranormal or human) had a preoccupation with mathematical formalism.

Now it gets interesting, AI has gone through Ark's old published papers, and pattern matched his reference to Gudder's paper:

3. The Artifact of Formalism: Stanley Gudder’s 1967 Paper​

We now turn to the second artifact: the paper referenced by the number 2109.

• Journal: Journal of Mathematical Physics (JMP).
• Volume: 8, Number 10 (October 1967).
• Pagination: 2109–2113.
• Author: Stanley Gudder.
• Title: "Systems of Observables in Axiomatic Quantum Mechanics".

3.1 The Context of 1967 Physics​

The late 1960s were a "Golden Age" for axiomatic physics. The foundational debates of the 1920s (Bohr vs. Einstein) had settled into a drive for rigor. Physicists like Mackey, Jauch, Piron, and Gudder were attempting to rebuild quantum mechanics from the ground up, using the language of lattice theory and functional analysis. They wanted to know why the Hilbert space formulation worked. They sought to define the "logic" of the universe—Quantum Logic.

3.2 The Definition of a "System of Observables"​

Gudder’s paper addresses a specific problem: logical consistency. In classical mechanics, all observables (position, momentum, energy) are compatible; they can all be measured simultaneously. They form a Boolean algebra. In quantum mechanics, observables are non-Boolean; they cannot all be measured simultaneously (e.g., position and momentum).

Gudder defines a "System of Observables" as a structure that contains these incompatible measurements but creates a unified framework for them.

• The Insight: 2109 (the entity) acts exactly as such a system. It contains the "1546 Observable" (Lukas) and the "1985 Observable" (Ken). These two realities are incompatible (non-Boolean)—they cannot physically coexist in the same space-time without paradox. 2109 is the "System" that allows them to interact within a larger, axiomatic framework.

3.3 Theorem 5.2 and the "Standard" vs. "Nonstandard"​

A critical section of the paper, found on page 2109, is the distinction between standard and nonstandard observables.

• Snippet Analysis : "It is easy to find examples of nonstandard observables. For instance, the inverse mappings of measurable functions on a measure space are always nonstandard observables."
• Narrative Integration: The entity 2109 can be viewed as a Nonstandard Observable.
  • A "Standard" observer exists within the timeline (Ken, Lukas). They follow the "Boolean" logic of cause and effect.
  • A "Nonstandard" observer (2109) exists outside the timeline. It is an "inverse mapping"—it looks back at the measure space of history from the outside.
  • Gudder notes that standard observables relate to the "intersection of maximal Boolean algebras." This mathematical intersection is the perfect metaphor for the "Vertical Plane"—the locus where the Boolean logic of 1546 and the Boolean logic of 1985 intersect.

5. The Convergence: A Comparative Exegesis​

This section provides a detailed, point-by-point mapping of the attributes of the 2109 entity (from The Vertical Plane) against the content of the Gudder paper (Page 2109).

5.1 The Name as Citation​

The most obvious connection is the identifier itself.

• Entity: Calls itself "2109."
• Paper: Starts on page "2109."
• Probability: The Journal of Mathematical Physics publishes thousands of pages a year. The probability of a sophisticated "time travel" story featuring an entity that behaves like a quantum observer, named "2109," purely by chance, when the definitive paper on quantum observables starts on page 2109, is statistically minute.

Then it explains how this could be a hoax carried out by Ken Webster, as he has a scientific background (in economics, AFAIR), so he could have exposure to the Journal of Mathematical Physics, but:

7. Broader Theoretical Implications: Synchronicity and Quantum Mind​

While the "Hoaxer" hypothesis is the most rational, we must also address the "High Strangeness" interpretation favored by the community surrounding The Vertical Plane.

7.1 Jungian Synchronicity​

If Webster had no knowledge of Gudder’s paper, the connection falls into the category of Synchronicity—an acausal connecting principle.

• The Archetype: The archetype of the "Observer" manifested in the story (Entity 2109) and in the history of science (Page 2109) simultaneously (in the sense of discovery).
• The "Vertical" Connection: The recurrence of "Vertical" (Vertical Plane, Vertical Space) suggests a subconscious recognition of the geometry of the phenomenon. The human mind intuitively maps "time" as horizontal and "spirit/observer" as vertical. Gudder’s mathematics formalizes this intuition.

7.2 The "Mind to Matter" Loops​

Snippet mentions "mind to matter loops." Gudder’s later work (referenced in , "Effect test spaces") often deals with "Effects"—generalized observables that allow for unsharp measurements. This parallels the "fuzzy" nature of the Dodleston phenomena, where thoughts seemed to manifest as physical text. The entity 2109 might be interpreted as a "Quantum Effect"—a probability distribution of consciousness that attained a temporary eigenvalue (a definite state) on the computer screen.

8. Conclusion: The Identifier as Axiom​

The investigation into the link between Vertical Space's book 2109 entity and Stanley Gudder’s "Systems of Observables" (Page 2109) yields a definitive result. The connection is not merely plausible; it is structurally and thematically precise.

1. The Numerical Key: The entity's name corresponds exactly to the starting page of the seminal paper on the entity's primary function (Observation).
2. The Thematic Lock: The entity's behavior (mediating between timelines) mirrors the paper's mathematical subject (mediating between Boolean algebras in a system of observables).
3. The Geometric Context: The user's term "Vertical Space," while technically a misnomer for the book's title, is mathematically accurate in the context of the physics involved. The entity exists in the "vertical" kernel of the time projection, exactly as a "nonstandard observable" would in Gudder’s formalism.

Whether this convergence is the result of a brilliant, erudite hoax by a scientifically literate author in the 1980s, or a profound synchronicity pointing to the underlying mathematical structure of reality, the conclusion remains the same: Entity 2109 is a personification of the Axiomatic Observer. It is a narrative device that functions according to the theorems published on page 2109 of the Journal of Mathematical Physics, Volume 8.

The "Dodleston Messages" thus stand not just as a ghost story, but as a dramatization of the Measurement Problem—a fictional experiment in the "Systems of Observables" that Stanley Gudder sought to define.

Pretty weird stuff. I've then asked how 2109 could be interpreted as within the framework of Bernardo Kastrup's Idealism:

4. Who is 2109? (The "Gatekeeper Alter")​

This is the most interesting part for Kastrup's theory. In cases of severe Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) in humans, there is often a "Gatekeeper" or "Manager" personality.

• The Role: This personality is usually cold, unemotional, knows about all the other personalities, and controls who gets to "front" (take control of the body).
• 2109 as the Gatekeeper: Kastrup would likely see 2109 as a higher-order transpersonal processor a "Manager Alter" of the Mind-at-Large.
  • 2109 is "cold" because it isn't a person; it's a regulatory function.
  • It controls the flow of information between the "1546 partition" and the "1985 partition" to prevent total psychosis (reality collapsing).
  • It sees both "Boolean logics" because it exists above the dissociation, managing the split.

I find this pretty fascinating. There are similar stories such as Vertical Plane, in which communication occurs through technological devices, and at some point a “control mechanism” kicks in and censors or terminates the whole process.

 

[KJS]

Mentioned podcast and associated video:

Summary: The Dodleston Messages with Paul Rogers
Channel: New Thinking Allowed with Jeffrey Mishlove

Overview
Dr. Paul Rogers, a psychologist and researcher, discusses the "Dodleston Messages"—a bizarre case from the 1980s involving Ken Webster, his partner Debbie, and a series of anomalous messages received on a computer with no network connection. The case suggests communication across time between the 1980s, the 1540s, and the year 2109.

Key Events and Phenomena

• Poltergeist Activity: The events began in a small cottage in Dodleston, England (near the Welsh border) [00:06:23]. It started with six-toed footprints appearing on the walls and objects like furniture and cat food moving on their own.
• The Messages: Around 1984, Ken Webster borrowed a BBC Micro computer from the school where he taught. Despite having no internet or remote access capabilities, messages began appearing on the screen [00:07:55].
• Thomas Harden (1546):The primary communicator was a man named Thomas Harden (originally using the pseudonym "Lucas Wainman"), who claimed to be living in the house during the 1540s [00:10:52].
  • Method of Communication: Thomas did not have a computer. He claimed a glowing green entity gave him a "Leems Boyst" (box of lights) which displayed floating words, allowing him to communicate [00:19:41].
  • Historical Verification: Thomas mentioned specific details, such as the local sheriff Thomas Fowlhurst and founding fellows of Brasenose College, Oxford. Researchers have since verified these obscure historical facts [00:14:07].
• 2109:A second entity or group identifying as "2109" also communicated. They appeared to be from the future (possibly the year 2109) and claimed to be facilitating the "experiment" [00:23:03].
  • They predicted the solving of Fermat's Last Theorem, stating it would be resolved by a new way of thinking about mathematics, which came true years later [00:24:27].

Investigation and Evidence

• Linguistic Analysis: The messages from Thomas were written in Early Modern English. Ken's colleague, Peter Trinder, spent hours translating them [00:13:39].
• Impossible Technology: Rogers emphasizes that in 1984, there was no Wi-Fi or internet. A member of their research group, who actually helped invent Wi-Fi later in the 90s, confirmed that the hardware to hoax this remotely simply did not exist at the time [00:37:09].
• Physical Evidence:
  • The Map: Thomas drew a map of the area from his time. Recent investigations using LIDAR and archaeology have matched subterranean features (like old roads) to his map, even though they don't exist on modern maps [00:28:56].
  • Gary Rowe: A ufologist named Gary Rowe was contacted by 2109 independently and received physical letters left on the computer, which Ken was not allowed to see [00:30:17].

Current Status

• The Hidden Book: The messages indicated that Thomas wrote a book in Latin and hid it in a secure place, hoping it would be found by his "friends" in the future. The research group is currently searching for this physical book, which would serve as definitive proof if found and carbon-dated [00:34:29].
• Conclusion: Rogers and his research group of ~35 people (including historians and archaeologists) believe the case is genuine. They argue that if it were a hoax, it would be the "greatest ever," requiring impossible technology and deep historical knowledge that Ken and Debbie did not possess [00:17:55].

Summary: Gary Rowe - The Dodleston Timewarp
Channel: Swansea UFO Network

Overview
Gary Rowe, a mysteries investigator, recounts his personal involvement in the "Dodleston Messages" case (also known as "The Vertical Plane"). He details how he was brought into the investigation by the entity "2109" and describes the specific experiments he conducted to test the authenticity of the phenomena.

Involvement in the Case

• Initial Contact (1986): On February 8, 1986, Gary received a call from Peter Trinder (a friend of the cottage owners). Peter claimed they were receiving messages from the 1500s and poltergeist activity was occurring. Gary initially believed it to be a hoax [00:01:52].
• Meeting the Witnesses: Gary met with Ken Webster, Debbie Oaks, and the Trinders. They showed him a box full of A4 papers containing messages from "Thomas Harden" (living in 1546) and the entity "2109" [00:03:29].
• Conditions for Investigation: Gary agreed to investigate only if he had total control: he required the keys to the cottage, the ability to analyze the original writings, and the freedom to secure the location with his own equipment [00:05:05].

Investigation & Methodology

• The Cottage: He describes the location as a tiny 18th-century terraced cottage. The activity was centered in the small kitchen [00:07:16].
• Computer-Controlled Surveillance: Gary set up what he claims was the "world's first computer-controlled psychic investigation." He used a Tandy TRS-80 computer with custom hardware to monitor the status of locks and seals on the windows and doors continuously [00:17:58].
• Poltergeist Activity: He recounts stories of furniture being piled up and writing appearing on new plaster and floors, even when the house was locked and Ken Webster was watching from his car outside [00:11:06].

Key Evidence: The Sealed Envelope Test

• The Experiment: To test if Ken or Debbie were faking the messages from "2109," Gary devised a trap. He placed a message inside a light-proof envelope. Crucially, he included a piece of unexposed photographic paper inside the envelope [00:21:35].
• The Result: The envelope was left in the cottage and later returned with a reply from 2109. Gary developed the photographic paper in his darkroom and found it was completely unexposed. This meant the envelope had never been opened, yet the message inside had been read and answered. This convinced him the phenomenon was likely genuine [00:22:37].

2109 and Numerology

• Direct Communication: The entity "2109" (believed to be from the year 2109) communicated directly with Gary.
• The Number 7: 2109 revealed a deep knowledge of Gary's connection to the number 7 (his birth date, names, and address all relate to 7). Gary notes that even the book "The Vertical Plane" contains a strange misprint where Chapter 22 is followed by Chapter 7, and the title itself adds up to 7 in Chaldean numerology [00:26:05].

Conclusion

• End of the Experiment: eventually, 2109 stated they had completed their work and cut off communication. Gary has not spoken to Ken or Debbie since [00:24:28].
• Withheld Information: Gary states he is still "sitting on incredible stuff" that he gave his word not to reveal, but hints that the truth may come out soon [00:23:18].