The Eros theme

Psyche said:
I told Eros that I needed him to console me through me, not in fantasies that have no bear with reality, but I needed to integrate him in me so I could reclaim my Self. After all, Eros represented a part of me that I never reclaim in myself because of my inner traumas and the childhood I was brought in.

I'm reading Shadow and Evil in Fairy Tales by Marie-Louise von Franz where she describes in more detail the difference of passive and active imagination, the later making a real and significant difference. It's pretty much like the process I described above, but here are some quotes that add some context, it has some Jungian lingo, but it can be interpreted from what we have discussed about psychology and the Work:

Shadow and Evil in Fairy Tales said:
The theme is archetypal, and the idea of a beautiful girl who in some way has been bewitched, or has a poisonous body which kills anyone who comes near her unless he knows how to exorcise her, seems to be a common element in Oriental legends. In northern European countries the poison in the bride often comes because she has a secret affair with a pagan demon living in the woods, and through this affair she becomes a destroyer of men; and until the king can cut the connection or kill the demon or evil spirit behind the anima, he cannot win her. [...]

The modern psychological parallel would be active imagination, through which one can literally attract the contents of the unconscious. If you succeed in producing the right kind of symbol, either by drawing, or writing a fantasy, or by actual active imagination, you can, to a certain extent, constellate your own unconscious. Otherwise the achievement of the connection be-tween conscious and unconscious is a relatively slow process. For instance, an individual with a certain conscious attitude has a dream which we interpret and, if the interpretation is correct, there is a reaction and the conscious changes its attitude or ideas. The fact that consciousness has changed affects the next dream, and in that way there results a slow interconnection. [...]

I had a patient who drank and was in a dangerous situation inwardly and outwardly. He dreamt again and again of a dead school friend, whom he described as a man who had been very intelligent but neurotic, if not schizophrenic—the type of schizophrenia which you could describe as moral insanity. His mental functions were not affected, but the ethical personality was destroyed. He got into difficulties with the law and tried to commit suicide, and after internment succeeded. Since this fig¬ure appeared almost every night in the patient's dreams, I said that he must somewhere have such a figure within him (for he also did not believe in life), that it must have to do with his drinking, and that he should confront the shadow figure. The man agreed, but did nothing. When we counted up the number of times he had dreamt of this same man, it averaged about three times a week.

After some time of this I had enough and said that the patient must have it out with the figure in active imagination, and, being naive and gifted in that way, he succeeded. He asked his friend why he was annoying and disturbing him, and the friend replied that the whole psychological treatment was a fake, that the pa-tient was afraid of cancer of the liver and wanted to save his skin, there was nothing else behind it, he was just a coward. The patient defended himself, but he was not nearly as intelligent as his friend and after a time did not know how to argue and gave it up and said the friend was right. That was about five o'clock in the afternoon. He went to bed that night and about eight A.M. woke up with a horrible heart pain. He telephoned a doctor but nearly died. The doctor looked after him and a cardiogram was made, but it was a purely psychological attack which nearly killed him!

We went through the active imagination again, and I said that he had forgotten the arguments of the heart. The friend had got him through arguing on an intellectual basis in which there are but there is the possibility of choice, and that implies the heart, or feeling. I said he should begin again. He did so and said to the friend, "Look here, I have thought it over." "Oh, no," said the friend, "you have talked it over with your soul governess in Zurich!" The friend had this kind of destructive wit. But the patient said that the heart trouble was his own, in spite of the discussion in Zurich, and that it was the conversation with his friend that his heart had not been able to stand. So this time the friend was on the spot, and the conversa¬tion ended by the other not having anything more to say. The same night the man dreamt that he was at the friend's funeral.

In the ensuing analysis, which lasted a year and a half, this figure appeared only once, instead of three times a week, the previous average. Thus active imagination, if done in the right way, really has an impact on the unconscious. It has a much stronger effect than only dream interpretation, and the above case shows how creating the right symbolic figure in a symbolic dialogue caught the cynical shadow and exerted an actual influ-ence on the unconscious. Naturally, this is on the same level as age-old magic which has always been used to influence the psychological situation—it is really the same practice, but magic has an outer purpose. If this man had been a person of medieval mentality, I would have said that to dream so much about this cynical friend meant that his specter was haunting him; but as he was a modern man, he had it from within.

We draw a distinction between white and black magic, which would be that the latter is used for egotistical purposes. A woman in love uses a love potion, but that is the ego trying to push through its egotistical demands. There is also white magic in the form of exorcism, but that serves an ecclesiastical pur¬pose. Active imagination is produced entirely from within and is looked at in the same way, though it has sometimes an outer effect; indeed, one should only do it for one's own inner sake.

Jung has experienced that if it is done with living people, the other person is actually affected, though he could not explain how it works, but that is why it is dangerous, and we try to keep away from it. You can talk to your projection on the living person, but not directly to the living person. If you hate someone very intensely and want to work on that, you have to personify your hate and talk to it and not the living person.

I had an analysand who had a kind of admiration transference for a couple with whom she was first friendly, but then began to hate intensely. She always went to see them and always returned poisoned and upset. It was clearly a projection: they had a lot of shadow in common. Then she heard vaguely about active imagination, but what she thought was active imagination was to imagine that the man was there and then to insult and fight and in the end kill him. Afterward she felt quite relieved and went to bed and then dreamt that a witch had caught and imprisoned her. I asked her what she had done and said that something must have happened during the day, and she told me of her pseudo active imagination; her dream showed clearly that she had practiced witchcraft and not active imagination. She could have personified her hate or affect, and then it would have been all right, for she would have had the two figures of herself and "a woman who hates," and she could have asked the latter why she wanted to kill the man, and that would have worked. To deal with the image of the outer person is a mistake which has bad results and can act like a boomerang. The analysand did not rid herself of her hate, but fell into the archetype of the witch and even deeper into the unconscious. If you wish to work on a relationship with a real person and don't want to fall into magic, then talk to your own personified affect; but you must keep it within the vessel of your own personality and not draw in the outer person.

In cases where you can watch the effect of witchcraft, you can see that there are exteriorized destructive effects, but more than that, it harms the person who does it, making him even more unconscious, and it has no curative effect. In active imagi-nation the ego must empty itself and be an objective onlooker. The ego should say, "Now, let's look at my affect," so the first step is that of disidentification when the ego becomes an objec-tive onlooker. The analysand identified with her hatred where she should have disidentified. That is what we call an Auseinand-ersetzung, namely "sitting apart and having it out with each other," and the first thing is to "sit apart." That is a wonderful description of active imagination. I "sit apart" from my hatred, or my great love, and then I discuss with that factor, but I leave out the object because otherwise I am practicing black magic. The object of your hatred or love is something on which your unconscious greed fastens, and by that you produce wishful thinking, just the opposite of active imagination. People think of what they love, or what they would like to do, and believe that that is active imagination, but it is magic, and has all the effects of an abaissement du niveau mental; it can even release a psychosis.

If we are upset about something, a discussion goes on all the time within us, but that is passive imagination and completely different from the difficult art of sitting apart and disidentifying and looking at something objectively. If people can do active imagination for hours, then it is wrong; if it is done rightly, one is exhausted after ten minutes, for it is a real effort and not a "letting go."
 
Thanks for sharing this Psyche. It's very interesting!

I decided to give it a try yesterday and I found myself talking to my 'affect' and telling it some things that hadn't really occured to me before. Like, the fact that this 'daemon' is a projection and wants to stay like that, because as a projection it has a 'life of its own' at the expense of my energy. So the illusion that I need it is perpetuated, when in reality I don't need it, especially if this energy were reintregrated into my psyche and if it helped me to be more creative in the concrete world, not the world of imagination.

I don't know if I managed to explain myself but it does make sense to me.

Later I also realized how many times in my life I had been practicing 'witchcraft'... I feel very sorry for that. We are so used to think that our own thoughts will not touch anyone, but maybe somehow they do, and they can entrap us too!

All interesting realizations.
 
Ok let me see if I understand this. I should... talk with my emotion, obsession, impulse? I mean I had done what that woman did to the man, then I realized as wind that the only one trapped on those waters was me. But for example I'm having an actual problem with something similar, I don't talk about it because it is personal but... should I, kind of imagine it?
 
Brunauld said:
Ok let me see if I understand this. I should... talk with my emotion, obsession, impulse? I mean I had done what that woman did to the man, then I realized as wind that the only one trapped on those waters was me. But for example I'm having an actual problem with something similar, I don't talk about it because it is personal but... should I, kind of imagine it?

You may want to take a look at this thread
Healing the fragmented self in the IFS therapeutic model .

Per my understanding, this method comes close to what ML Von Franz is suggesting as the method of doing active imagination.
 
Brunauld said:
Ok let me see if I understand this. I should... talk with my emotion, obsession, impulse? I mean I had done what that woman did to the man, then I realized as wind that the only one trapped on those waters was me. But for example I'm having an actual problem with something similar, I don't talk about it because it is personal but... should I, kind of imagine it?

The quote is basically another way to explain how you should not identify with your impulses or imaginations, otherwise you're inner considering and can't be objective about them. Instead of falling helplessly into certain imaginations and emotions, it tries to explain how you can look at them objectively, without identifying and inner considering. If you're advising a friend, you can be more capable of staying objective and giving the right feedback. But when it comes to yourself, you loose perspective and can't see yourself, you think emotionally and have trouble to get out of the pit so to speak (an emotional hijack) You need a mirror from an objective onlooker, the network.

The "active imagination" exercise tries to engage that objective onlooker within you; your prefrontal cortex if one wishes to use another term. Sometimes you can find a way out of a personal issue by imagining what you will advise a friend in the same situation and then apply it to you in order to see if you can discern the dynamics of your issues more clear. In the Nasty Women book, the guy said something among the lines of imagining you're seeing yourself from "outer space", to engage the prefrontal cortex and see the big picture:

Prefrontal lobe: The part of you that sees the bigger picture. It’s that part that enables you to imagine the consequences of your actions. It’s the captain’s chair of your life – where you are surrounded by windows so you can see where you have been and where you are going and have 360 degrees around them in a complete circle. It will enable you to see the big picture from your captains’s chair. If there is a decrease of pre-frontal lobe activity, a person then hardly sits in the captain’s station.

Granted, this "active imagination" is tricky and perhaps only easier for those of us who tend to project in a particular way. In my case, it was a "classical case" so to speak. For others who had disintegrated (or crystallized) with different issues, the network might be more helpful.

For me, even though I understood why it was happening, I was still identifying with it. But it really made a difference to stop being a passive spectator in order to be an active one in order to see the big picture. It stops the running of these imagination figure.

I hope this clarifies a bit. Also, it might be the case that you're talking yourself out of networking about your problem here because it is "too personal". I thought the same thing about the Eros theme, that I would never be able to talk about it with anyone, ever. Who would have thought I would start an entire thread about it :)
 
:-[ Yes I would but here is unknown people so I don't have that confidence. Ok I'm going to try it, I thought I just was creative haha, but I see that the archetypes or essence of some characters in my fantasies/imaginations appear on other people heads, in their own stories, as explained in this thread.

Thank you.
 
Brunauld said:
:-[ Yes I would but here is unknown people so I don't have that confidence. Ok I'm going to try it, I thought I just was creative haha, but I see that the archetypes or essence of some characters in my fantasies/imaginations appear on other people heads, in their own stories, as explained in this thread.

I think you will be able to tell by its overall effect on you. Some useful questions would be: Does it help you to be a better person, does it improve your interpersonal relationships, can you find what your soul needs through this "creative imagination", does it get out of control, are you able to See and Do better? Then, you'll know better if it's creative or not, or if it's having its toll rather than helping.

Just a thought.
 
Well most of it began with inspiration, and as I like to write and then I created a story, I'm still writing it. But when I started to read it it was like a projection, like prophesying or as a therapi, much as you described the twilight saga, as an unconscious projection. So, this imaginatione began to mix and combine with my "reality" and then I began to escape into that world, until I realized what I was doing so... right now is not that strong as before but this impulse, this assumptions and are always there as a real demon, and sometimes they really work for their purpose but sometimes they feel like something different. I have to admit this is not hard to explain for me but as english is not my native lenguage I find it hard to redact it.
 
This is exactly what had been happening to me over the past few weeks

Psyche said:
For me, even though I understood why it was happening, I was still identifying with it. But it really made a difference to stop being a passive spectator in order to be an active one in order to see the big picture. It stops the running of these imagination figure.

The UNIVERSE is really amazing! Thank you very much for posting this psyche.

p.s. i have somehow been able to integrate it, know i know what was happening and have attained a perspective in myself where i can perceive its origins and the consequences of allowing it to take over. Again thank you
 
Psyche said:
The "active imagination" exercise tries to engage that objective onlooker within you; your prefrontal cortex if one wishes to use another term. Sometimes you can find a way out of a personal issue by imagining what you will advise a friend in the same situation and then apply it to you in order to see if you can discern the dynamics of your issues more clear. In the Nasty Women book, the guy said something among the lines of imagining you're seeing yourself from "outer space", to engage the prefrontal cortex and see the big picture:

Read the following today from "In an Unspoken Voice" and thought it could fit this thread:

Both successful attack and escape are promoted by a basic strategy that incorporates past experience in the service of imagining (image-ing) future outcomes. The spanning of time allows choice of the imagined options. This strategy, however, is only effective when the organism is fully present in the now.

If on the other hand, we view the future solely in terms of the past - without a robust anchoring in the present - then, in the words of the country-and-western singer Michael Martin Murphy, "There ain't no future in the past." In other words, a future that is overly determined by the past ain't future at all. This fixation, set in the past, with no sense of a future that is different, is precisely what happens in trauma.

In this case, the objective onlooker could be the part that focuses on the now and sees the big picture, and the one that uses "active imagination" to guide the traumatized part, that is stuck in the past, out of the woods.
 
I thought I would add these last few quotes from "Shadow and Evil" by Marie Louise von Franz which ties up with the ones I posted at the beginning of this thread. It is the same concepts, but approached in a slightly different manner. She talks about possession, not "The Exorcist" type, but rather being possessed more subtlety by an affection or a fantasy for which von Franz qualifies as evil. I think she says some concepts of the Work in a very interesting way, regardless of the Jungian lingo.

[Man] tends to be swept away by certain patterns of behavior, that is, by archetypal patterns, which cause affects and fantasies. And, as in animal life, if anyone is overcome by these patterns, we speak of his being possessed. Possession for us is still just as bad as in primitive society, for it means being swept away by one tune in the melody of one's inner possibilities, and in that there is already a great amount of evil. Now you see why and how that links with pure evil in nature, because if you are swept away by an affect, it is exactly like a landslide, but one within you rather than outside. The boulders of your affect roll over you, and you are completely overcome; anything like reason or relatedness or any other mode of behavior is gone. [...]

How some negative thought loops can really block any objectiveness about oneself and others:

[An island] has simply the symbolism of a faraway realm of the unconscious, unconnected with consciousness. The word isolation comes from the Latin insula, island. In psychological terms an island represents an autonomous complex with a life of its own, which has no or almost no connection with the rest of the conscious personality. It is literally an insulated area about which the individual sometimes has a certain amount of knowledge but does not connect it with consciousness.[...]

The Arabs in the Sahara Desert say that a man should never approach a woman who lives alone close to the desert, for she certainly has a secret lover, a jinn, a desert spirit. There again is the motif of loneliness. [...] The natural explanation would be that the amount of energy normally used in relating to one's surroundings is dammed back into oneself and activates the unconscious, loads up the unconscious part of the psyche, so that if for a long time one is alone, one's unconscious will come alive, and then you are caught for better or for worse; either the devil will get you or you will find greater inner realization. If you introvert in this way, as has been reported by people who strove for saintliness in the past, at first you will always be attacked by devils, because at first this energy strengthens what we would call the autonomous complexes in the unconscious. These become more intensified, and before you have worked them out, the fruit of loneliness will not be positive but it will mean fighting with twenty thousand different devils. [...]

For instance, after very long holidays in which I do not see my analysands, I often find that when I come back they have slowly spun a web of the most amazing negative ideas about me. That is why the French say, "Les absents ont toujours tort" (the absent ones are always wrong). They think I do this or that, but when they see me again they say, "Why on earth did I believe that? Nov that we are together again I cannot even imagine that I could think such things about you." The actual warm human contact dissipates those clouds of projection, but if one is away for a long time and the tie of affection and feeling loosens, people begin to project. [...]

And another perspective on the (negative) disintegrating factor:

If we put that into psychological language, they refused to become conscious, and unrealized consciousness becomes a burning fire, coals of fire on their heads! That is why, according to Jung, not becoming conscious when one has the possibility of doing so is the worst sin. If there is no germ of possible consciousness within, if God made you unconscious and you just stay that way, then it doesn't matter; but if one does not live up, to an inner possibility, then this inner possibility becomes destructive. That's why Jung also says that in a similar way one of the most wicked destructive forces, psychologically speaking, is unused creative power. That is another aspect. If somebody has a creative gift and out of laziness, or for some other reason one doesn't use it, that psychic energy turns into sheer poison. That's why we often diagnose neuroses and psychotic diseases as not-lived higher possibilities.

A neurosis is often a plus, not a minus, but an unlived plus, a higher possibility of becoming more conscious, or becoming more creative, funked for some lousy excuse. The refusal of higher development or higher consciousness is, in our experience, one of the most destructive things there is. Among other things, it makes people automatically want to pull back every¬body else who tries. Someone who has unlived creativity tries to destroy other people's creativity, and somebody who has an un¬lived possibility of consciousness always tries to blur or make uncertain anybody else's efforts toward consciousness. That's why Jung says that if a patient outgrows his analyst, which hap¬pens frequently, he has to leave the analyst, because the latter will probably try to pull the patient back onto the old level.

The desire to prevent other people from becoming conscious because one does not Want to wake up oneself is real destructiveness. And having the possibility of becoming conscious and not taking it is about the worst thing possible. [...]

It requires constant daily efforts and awareness:

Here this ability to be inwardly alert and awake is the decisive factor. It needs constant, concentrated inner alertness to escape attacks of evil. [If] one is not constantly on the alert, these figures get one in a moment of fatigue or in an abaissement du niveau mental. [...] Where one projects, one easily becomes emotional; already one has an abaissement and because of that, without wanting to, one, defeats one's own objectives. That is usually how one loses the battle in such cases. Generally not being alert plays a certain role. [...] This entails a loss of soul. In such instances, because a part of oneself is involved with the enemy through projection, one is no longer on the alert, but half asleep, and so one plays against oneself. [...]

The word projection comes from projicere: something is thrown unconsciously out of oneself into the other object. If one looks at something evil, Plato once said, something evil falls into one's own soul. One cannot look at evil without something in oneself being aroused in response because evil is an archetype, and every archetype has an upon people. To look at it means to become infected by it.

I think this last part is like what the Cs said in one of the latest sessions, that we have to be most vigilant about diet and psychic hygiene which is being careful about what we allow into our "field".
 
:guru: It looks very interesting the synchronicities. Thanks for the last post, it helps me to understand better my actual situation, and that phrase about creativity rolling on facebook ;)
 
Very interesting post(s) to reflect on, some very tricky things to look at - maintaining your objective self on many levels while watching for tripping hazards so to speak.

The below seems to apply within the very fabric of even governance itself, systems, artificial constructs that enact unreasonable prevention activities of free will, and then even if awakening consciousness, if given the chance, may battle and the opportunity to do so is to an extent drugged and fails or is disassociated and forgotten, replaced by newer internal and external projections that carries no objectiveness and feedback possibility; if this makes sense.

The desire to prevent other people from becoming conscious because one does not Want to wake up oneself is real destructiveness. And having the possibility of becoming conscious and not taking it is about the worst thing possible.
 
Psyche said:
And another perspective on the (negative) disintegrating factor:

If we put that into psychological language, they refused to become conscious, and unrealized consciousness becomes a burning fire, coals of fire on their heads! That is why, according to Jung, not becoming conscious when one has the possibility of doing so is the worst sin. If there is no germ of possible consciousness within, if God made you unconscious and you just stay that way, then it doesn't matter; but if one does not live up, to an inner possibility, then this inner possibility becomes destructive. That's why Jung also says that in a similar way one of the most wicked destructive forces, psychologically speaking, is unused creative power. That is another aspect. If somebody has a creative gift and out of laziness, or for some other reason one doesn't use it, that psychic energy turns into sheer poison. That's why we often diagnose neuroses and psychotic diseases as not-lived higher possibilities.

A neurosis is often a plus, not a minus, but an unlived plus, a higher possibility of becoming more conscious, or becoming more creative, funked for some lousy excuse. The refusal of higher development or higher consciousness is, in our experience, one of the most destructive things there is. Among other things, it makes people automatically want to pull back every¬body else who tries. Someone who has unlived creativity tries to destroy other people's creativity, and somebody who has an un¬lived possibility of consciousness always tries to blur or make uncertain anybody else's efforts toward consciousness. That's why Jung says that if a patient outgrows his analyst, which hap¬pens frequently, he has to leave the analyst, because the latter will probably try to pull the patient back onto the old level.

The desire to prevent other people from becoming conscious because one does not Want to wake up oneself is real destructiveness. And having the possibility of becoming conscious and not taking it is about the worst thing possible. [...]

Great quotes! The one above reminds me of saying 70 of the Gospel of Thomas:

70 Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you."

And also this:

2 Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
 
Hi Psyche. I am enjoying this excerpt from "Shadow and Evil in Fairy Tales", but I'm having a problem following along with the fifth paragraph. Are there some words missing between the two words I bolded below? Thanks for your help!

Psyche said:
Shadow and Evil in Fairy Tales said:
We went through the active imagination again, and I said that he had forgotten the arguments of the heart. The friend had got him through arguing on an intellectual basis in which there are but there is the possibility of choice, and that implies the heart, or feeling. I said he should begin again. He did so and said to the friend, "Look here, I have thought it over." "Oh, no," said the friend, "you have talked it over with your soul governess in Zurich!" The friend had this kind of destructive wit. But the patient said that the heart trouble was his own, in spite of the discussion in Zurich, and that it was the conversation with his friend that his heart had not been able to stand. So this time the friend was on the spot, and the conversa¬tion ended by the other not having anything more to say. The same night the man dreamt that he was at the friend's funeral.
 

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