The Evolutionary Argument Against Reality

Joe said:
If "everything is illusion", what is the definition of "illusion"?
I think the core of illusion is misapprehension. Mistaking some thing, or state, or impression for something else; mislabeling, or misunderstanding an experience or impression; assigning false causes.

Illusion also seems to be rooted in the point of view of the experiencer. And that point of view might be called delusion. We intrinsically are predisposed to trust our "equipment" and its interpretations and impressions and yet, there is that 'reading error' thing. And suddenly I am back at Socrates...what DO I know?

All I know is that thoughts appears in my brain, sensations in my body, and emotions in my feelings. I try to connect the dots. If learning goes on forever (until that 7th heaven) how can I learn anything new if I have not been living in an illusion previously?
 
The topic thread also sidesteps or leaves out the idea of objective vs subjective reality.

If a mosquito is buzzing around my ears as I am trying to go to sleep, it is just a bug being drawn to body heat and carbon dioxide exhalation looking for a snack.

But I can have the impression that the universe it trying to teach me something about annoyance or acceptance or action (send that little so-and-so into its next incarnation) or I may have the impression that the universe is punishing me for my sins or 3D STS is out to get me or perhaps some other great cosmic lesson. But that is all my subjective experience that I made up. It is an illusion. But for my subjective self, it is reality! There is a whiney, high-pitched little bugger that wants to drink my blood keeping me awake.

And then, of course, the mosquito, mechanical as it is, has a different sense of all this.

The bottom line is that there is just this insect flying around a human body.

But I guess it IS an objective fact that the human is having a subjective experience of it.

So are the human and insect really objectively 'there'?

For each other they seem to be, in that moment.

But how many supposedly objective moments have passed which we now have no recollection of.

Were they reality? What will we recall of any of this in 5 years if we still exist on this planet?

Don't get me wrong...as long as I am 'here' I will act as though I am 'really' here and interact with and deal with 'reality' whether it is illusion or not. It is also important to remember that mixtus orbis thingie: One foot in the grave and one on a banana peel; one foot in the spiritual realm and one in the physical.

So, that is another question: just which 'reality' are we talking about here?

And with that 2 1/2 somersault dive into the deep end of the pool, I bid you all a good night.
 
[quote author= BHelmet][quote author= Joe]If "everything is illusion", what is the definition of "illusion"?[/quote]

I think the core of illusion is misapprehension. Mistaking some thing, or state, or impression for something else; mislabeling, or misunderstanding an experience or impression; assigning false causes.
[/quote]

What separates us from understanding the illusion are lessons.

That's why I paraphrased. 'God' is an illusion for all those who are not on 7D.

So we can't grasp that as of yet. Unless we have learned.


Was kind of trying to understand where the C's where coming from with some of the sessions when they talked about illusions.

But now that I remember, they once said.

[quote author= September 9, 1995 ]Q: (L) What creates this environment of limitation?
A: It is the grand illusion which is there for the purpose of learning.[/quote]
 
Another possible definition: Changeable/temporary is illusion, nonchangeable/constant is absolute. As mentioned, illusion is also absolute in that it exists absolutely and not temporarily; only its content changes, not the concept or mechanism itself.

Again, as mentioned, it seems that the answer to many related questions is both yes and no. This must be related to the issue of balance.

In the hope of not complicating the matter further, I find the astrological duality of Leo and Aquarius to be revealing in this matter. Although this duality is a dual expression of a non-dual reality, when assessed separately, Leo is the heart and Aquarius is the mind. Leo is loyalty, Aquarius is independence/challenge. Leo is "Being/Self", Aquarius is "Knowledge/Awareness". In terms of astrological elements, Leo is "fire" and Aquarius is "air". "Air" can probably be taken as "light" and I think this is closely related to the C's statement, "From fire comes light". Although I don't feel sure, Being might be associated more with Absolute, and Light/Knowledge more with Illusion. But just as light is of fire, knowledge is of being.

Interestingly, from a twisted perspective, Leo is God and Aquarius is Satan in connection with some of the above comparisons (loyalty/rebellion etc). You know, the concept of Satan/Evil is often related to some masterful or sneaky application of relatively high level knowledge. I think this is very related to the Lizzies' being genetic masters (even if they are the pets of higher 4D STS) and the top Illuminati guys possessing shocking levels of knowledge. This would be equaling Leo with STO and Aquarius with STS. But this would not be a valid formulation. Any of them can be associated with either STO or STS, dependingly.

Just like suggested by the statement "From fire comes light", Leo and Aquarius are not really two essentially separate factors, they are just dual expressions of a non-dual factor; they are essentially one and same. This is probably just like male and female being the same "human being" after all. From that same twisted perspective, however, Male is God (STO, yang) and Female is Satan (STS, yin). And strangely, the C's statement that "the female energy consorted with the wrong side" in connection with the Story of Fall seems to support such an imbalanced view. I don't think that the male energy was so right and the female energy was so wrong. I think we can understand that both types of energy were corrupted and the female energy with its peculiarity proceeded with what the situation necessitated naturally. Male and female are not really separate or completely independent of each other; they are the dual expression of a non-dual being. But still there is that strange correlations with male/yang, female/yin principle, although I don't think that this is directly translatable to our concepts of sex/gender.

I think that the issue of balance is of supreme importance. And probably this also applies to the relation between Absolute and Illusion, Being and Knowledge, Male and Female, etc.
 
Hello H2O said:
So then, all of creation is an illusion when compared to Unity, since it is not Unity, but something created out of it. Creation may be just a thought, and to us it is real. But still, when compared to Unity, it is still an illusion of Unity, or a distortion from Unity.

So if we go with the idea of unity being the only true reality (and why not, it's a good theory) then the definition of its opposite i.e. illusion, in this context would be "the belief in separateness". But to test the theory that unity is the only true reality, we would have to look at the results of the belief in separateness/illusion vs a belief in unity of all things. We would also have to apply a value judgement to those results, i.e. determining that one is "good" and the other is "bad". But how do to that?

Well, I suppose one baseline criteria for determining "good" from "bad" would be which produces expansion and which produces contraction, or which thrives and which diminishes, with thriving being "good" and diminishing being "bad", for the simple reason that something that continually grows and expands into existence is "good" mainly because the end result of the opposite is 'nothingness', or as close as you can get to that, and what's the point of nothingness? It's not very interesting for sure, so it's "bad".

So does a belief in unity encourage expanded existence and does a belief in separateness do the opposite? That seems to be the case. For example, if I assume that unity of everything is the ultimate truth and put that belief into practice, I will tend to be cooperative with others and look to their welfare (because I see them as part of a whole of which I am a part and therefore those others are, to one extent or another, part of me) while at the same time not demanding that they accept my concern for their welfare, but rather extending the offer unconditionally. This kind of cooperation or giving (assuming you have willing partners) appears to encourage expansion and growth.

Conversely, a belief in separateness tends to encourage isolation and therefore contraction or the attempt to exploit or use others to sustain one's isolation or for one's own gain, in a kind of 'survival of the fittest, or 'dog eat dog' approach to existence. But a single person or 'consciousness unit' can only accrue to itself or embody so much of what appears to be limitless creative potential or diversity because of the limiting nature of or power inherent in a single unit of consciousness, especially if the ultimate reality is limitless diversity. So belief in separateness is ultimately a limiting approach to take, and therefore not sustainable, especially when we include what appears to the reality of 'free will' which presents a probably insurmountable obstacle to any 'consciousness unit' successfully subsuming all others into itself.

On a practical level of our human life experiences, following this path of a belief in unity of all things could be said to boil down to just a few simple aphorisms, one of which is "don't hurt others" (because they are you) which is similar to the idea of "do unto others are you would have them do unto you". Certainly, the effort to learn how to do that can take a whole lifetime, or many of them.
 
I once 'saw' for myself 'reality' being 'geometrized' from the inside out. Or at least that is the best I can come up with to describe it. I saw that it's all just mind. Reality is illusion is reality, as has been said. The Universe is a school for the purpose of learning. There is no other reason for anything to exist. However, we as we are, are not the architects of the school which implies separation. This separation is also illusion. Two ways forward are possible; STS in which the consciousness unit seeks to make the illusion real at the expense of all other units, which is not ultimately possible (resulting in the second death?) And STO where units grow and expand through their connection to all that is, including all that is ultimately ending the separation. But for now 'reality' is perception resulting from learning/ understanding. OSIT One further thought; getting past the notion that there exist a fixed reality outside ourselves is a big necessary step to be able to move to the next level. Again, OSIT!
 
Joe, I liked the way you put unity to the test, and indeed it does appear to pass the test just as you have described.
 
Hello H2O said:
Joe, I liked the way you put unity to the test, and indeed it does appear to pass the test just as you have described.

I think so to, those where practical examples how unification applies in 3D

So the theory goes that at a higher realm of understanding unification manifests in a literal way?

Separation occurred through Ego. Ego (Self Importance) causes disconnect with each other. Compassion connects us with each other. Ego causes separation when compassion brings everyone together. (unification)

Or so it goes?
 
bjorn said:
Hello H2O said:
Joe, I liked the way you put unity to the test, and indeed it does appear to pass the test just as you have described.

I think so to, those where practical examples how unification applies in 3D

So the theory goes that at a higher realm of understanding unification manifests in a literal way?

Separation occurred through Ego. Ego (Self Importance) causes disconnect with each other. Compassion connects us with each other. Ego causes separation when compassion brings everyone together. (unification)

Or so it goes?

Just my interpretation, but the separation occurred, or was a conscious decision at the time of creation. It was chosen specifically because it was determined to be the best way for evolution. To put another rub on it, it seems the separation was dramatically increased after the Fall. (of Eden). So we here at this time are getting the full whack of separation. If I understand correctly, there are two paths that can be chosen within this scenario. So since you specifically mentioned Ego, that would put you on, or keep you on the STS path. But it itself is not causing the separation, it is just there to keep you on the path, to more separation, I guess you could say. The STO path, being chosen, would be the path, away from separation, and back to unity. OSIT
 
As I understand it the C's also said what is most important is who we are and what we see. Moruravieff also talked about us being in a kind of subjective soup by default striving to align ourselves with objective reality (or something like that). So it may be that all we have to go on to perceive reality is our physical perceptual 'apparatus' along with the higher cognitive functions such as reason and intuition. I think it may be all an 'illusion' in the sense that our perceptions are like 'pointer readings' that Eddington talked about and in this sense it might be an "illusion" but we KNOW that it's about perception which is very limited and it's only a shadow that we perceive or maybe a shadow of a shadow of something real. However, if we were in a delusion then we can never know it.

However, there there might be an aspect of reality (in it's totality) that we can never 'know' but we can infer that there is 'something there' that we can never know and in this sense what we perceive, however well tuned our instrument, can never know this aspect of reality. It can only be inferred by our higher reason that, although it's real, it does not 'exist' and cannot be detected by any instrument of any kind. It's like the 'ghost in the machine.'

Ouspensky spoke of the existing universe in its totality in terms of a six dimensional geometrical 'framework' and as this being the totality of everything possible (all possibilities) at all levels of existence. As I understand it he also postulated that, as an extension of this dimensional scheme, there is a 'seventh dimension' or an imaginary dimension that is non-material and non-metric and which contains all impossibilities.

So, my interpretation of all this (which could very well be skewed and wrong) is that this six dimensional framework can be 'weighed and measured' in the sense that it has a 'material' basis which, I guess, would include all levels of materiality from the coarsest to the finest (that is, the lowest 'hydrogens' to the highest) and this is 'metrical' because there is a 'materiel' basis to it all.

So, for example, we can imagine a cow jumping over the moon but
in the reality-of-facts it is impossible (within the six dimensional framework) since there are laws that make it impossible. But in the "seventh dimension" of impossibilities, that is, the seventh dimension of freedom we are 'free' to imagine it.

Possibly it is in this imaginary dimension of impossibilities where objective values reside also since it may be that this existing universe was, in a sense, 'imagined' into existence and it is from this 'impossible realm,' that although it's beyond all known existence it can still enter into it and give it value and significance at all levels of existence. A ghost in the machine as it were.

If one views the six dimensional framework as it is then there is nothing to give any event in it more significance then any other. But the 'seventh degree of freedom' allows for significance to enter into an event giving it a value within the scheme of things. Value and significance would, in a sense be impossible, since no matter how much we may study the existing universe thru our perceptions and instruments we can never detect value and significance. We could only realize it thru an ascent of our awareness into this other domain of reality. So it may be that there are two domains of 'reality.' The 'metrical' domain which is factual and has a 'material' basis at whatever level it might be and a non metrical aspect which is impossible but can still give it essential content, meaning, structure and form. 'True Reality' might be a balance or harmony between these two domains of reality. Fwiw and this is just a theory that's been going thru my mind!
 
It's a hard question: "What is illusion"
It requires an assumption that there is something not. But like Joe said, there's no way to fathom that here.


I liked this video explaining Plato's allegory of the cave and the implications of what could be "above us":


So the shadow is created by a real object. But the "real" object could be a shadow of something else, and so on like the Russian doll of grandmothers within grandmothers, haha.

Perhaps real is a process we aim for not an actual place. In that case, illusion is more "solid" but like a prison- like the cave dwellers who deep down "KNOW" that the shadows are ghosts or what not. So would stopping the seeking for more be STS, where you become part of the illusion- a loop of repetition?


A person living in illusion gets stuck in some state. Some people are stuck as children for example even if they pretend to be adults. Some are stuck as victims or perpetrators, not dynamic but statically stuck in an archetype perhaps?
 
[quote author=kenlee]
Fwiw and this is just a theory that's been going thru my mind!
[/quote]

If this sort of philosophy is of interest, then you may want to check out JG Bennett's "Dramatic Universe".
 
Divide By Zero said:
Perhaps real is a process we aim for not an actual place. In that case, illusion is more "solid" but like a prison- like the cave dwellers who deep down "KNOW" that the shadows are ghosts or what not. So would stopping the seeking for more be STS, where you become part of the illusion- a loop of repetition?

kenlee said:
'True Reality' might be a balance or harmony between these two domains of reality. Fwiw and this is just a theory that's been going thru my mind!

Regarding the seeking issue, I'll assert that there should be a balance between seeking and not-seeking.

As implied by the author of the main article, it is the Self (conscious agent) that matters the most. From a certain perspective, which is oversimplified if not over-exaggerated (I try to analyze if it is), Self is the absolute reality, You essentially are the absolute. Thus, all knowledge that can ever be attained is contained in our essential (non-personal/universal) self because any knowledge may not be other than an emission of Self. From this perspective, it is an over-mystification of reality when we think that we lack the absolute reality. Illusion in a negative sense is the assumption that we essentially are not the absolute truth. I think this assumption is also one of the possible definitions of ego and STS.

I think that this is also related to the biblical statement "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" because the absolute truth (7D, Self) is so simple. And this is probably why the C's say "work on 4D, 5D and 6D" and not on 7D although they also say 7D, the Prime Creator, is our eternal abode. So the fact that we are 3D beings doesn't seem to change the fact that we eternally dwell in 7D and that we are of the prime creator. It seems that this is the simplest fact and at the same time the hard problem of consciousness.

I'm sorry for using such uneasy opinions so carefree. Although I can look like just professing them, I'm actually questioning them also and trying to find the connections between such ideas and, for example, the hard work exempled and suggested in this forum, which I don't doubt is of the utmost value for each of us and so many others.

It appears to me that what basically enables any entity of any density level to rise to higher densities is the primitive inner awareness of the identification with the absolute Self, although this awareness is distorted in various extents in various densities. Or rather, that primitive/subconscious awareness is what basically motivates our hope, seeking, actions and explorations. What do you think about this? And I also think that we, as 3D beings, are both illusion and absolute. This is probably one of those "yes and no" situations. Illusion also seems to be what enables freewill. STS leads from illusion towards non-being eventually , and STO leads to absolute being and also enjoys it in the journey in various distortions, which are natural for the related levels of being. C's suggestion: "All of us have a long way to go, but getting there is half the fun."
 
I have a theory, I think is the relationship between the factors, where a human being and its perception is a conglomeration of processes organized in a specific way, and has many properties, one of them is malleability and all we know of cognitive science.

and the other is the environment.

How accurately the conglomeration of processes, and the mechanisms organized in a human being perceives the environment or everything it sees outside itself is completely dependent on this organization in interaction with the enviornment.

We are bombarded with ideas of what "IS" in this 3D reality, through indoctrination science etc, and this certainly puts a person in a state of presumptive existence about what is possible based on what is acceptable.

This is a mind set, setting the mind to willingly narrow possibilities from a full picture unbiased and complete, to the person wearing off fashion shoes, the brain is first tuned to the abstract rules of society and then selects these type of details

In that case, the person is selecting what they want to see in a deeper level, and the brain is narrowing all the impressions it absorbs, because the eyes themselves can't do this selecting , the brain does it through that type of process, which is very complex.

but is all that we see not real? I think it is a matter of attribution, misinterpretation, assumption and narrowing rather than constantly seeing an illusion, we create the illusion ourselves, though the C's say that our brain is our most powerful tool if we know how to use it.

If three people are seating in a room and the question comes, what color is the table, and everyone says red, and it happens that the reflection of light from the table happens to be what we call the red longitude, in the mind of the three people, the multiple processes reach multiple connections to the many associations formed when the phenomena was instituted as "red color" and "table" , for the sake of keeping it simple, we seemed to have learned this in a similar way, in childhood, so we can access this set of associations, and agree almost instantly that this is color red.
The original associations to red can also later be replaced by other sets of associations, but memory aids the process of recognition it seems by any means necessary if we create the necessity, such as when we are competing "how many red things in the room?" type of challenge. This seems to be a form of narrowing , the fear of loosing the competition, aids the narrowing of perception, people will name all the red things in the room and ignore its texture, if is has a broken piece, if it was dirty, if it had some irregular shape.
The concept of table, is also another one that other than a human being, would probably not aquate or attribute the meaning we intended, it is wood that was shaped to serve multiple purposes of our human experience, we call it table, but we don't spend much time contemplating the many dimensions that this has.

It seems we can do this tuning at a superficial level, what interests me is the idea of emotional imbalances and crooked perception of things over all in what sometimes seem unrelated events. A person with learning problems, can have any number of interruptions, we call learning problems also a number of things to encapsulate a phenomena that affects the multiple stages or learning and construction of our machine of perception (our mind and personality).

In that sense I think that we can to some degree tune our mind (re-shape the structure of our various layers of perception) and achieve a better configuration and therefore a better perception more complete and whole, which obviously includes all life experiences, and even then our eyes are not designed to see EM waves, meaning we have biological limitations, the psychological limitations, that express themselves in all sorts of imbalances cause many errors of perception which affect all bodies and ultimately perception

We are talking , that this re-shaping of the structure of our being is an enormous work, we have the tools of the work to relate to it for the sake of familiarity, so I think it is important to remember that we are talking about mayor changes even at the fundamental level. an almost impossible feat.
With this comes the idea that we would not be able to hold the pressure of all reality if we were to get a glimpse of it, we would not be able to see all. We are also talking about that constructing our being to process and organize external influences more objectively takes lifetimes and encompasses all our lives.

How this relates, in evolutionary terms, and in terms of densities is a more difficult question, because I think our perception grows as it learns and we all learn, not something that can be answered at your "natural selection" lecture easily, but I think important to understand and answer the question of illusion.

In material terms I think the illusion is liked to our limitation in perception which affects primarily the moving center and it is the baseline of our whole experience, this means that if a person had echolocation , or deaf, a chunk of whole would be different than everyone else, but doesn't limit them to interpret certain aspect of reality and identify the missing link.

Interesting subject. :p
 
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