The Following

history said:
I don't see how wanting to be externally considerate is in contradiction with being good with someone. He knows I am here and has encouraged it from the day we met and also in the past few weeks. There is no problem between us now and life is moving on. I am going to speak to him before answering anart's questions because that is what we agreed to do. If I wanted to stalk him I could easily read the forum without posting and save myself a lot of effort. I'm here because I want to learn.

Never told you to suscribe to this forum, nor was I aware that you registered under 'history'. As it's been said, we talked a lot about Sott in the beginning, before you didn't want to hear about it anymore. Partly my lesson here, on the way to talk about things.
From this last conversation, as I told you, you want to be here, then answer here. I am not going to answer to the phone anymore, nor to your mails. I am done. In the Swamp I said :
You can give as much details as you want, history..
I'm glad that you created this post if it is of any help for you.
I am the one concerned here. And I hope you're able to hear what I have to say.

I thought it helped, it seems that there is still problems between us, considering your last words.
What do all of you think about wanting to be friends after a relationship, in general ?
Talking about friendship when there is still (what we dare to call) love ?

Now, again, you want to be here, then answer here. I am not going to answer to the phone anymore, nor to your mails.
Period. It's been two interesting April Fool's Day.
The questions are worth considering, by the way. I had them in mind, I am not the only one to see it. You've not been reading the forum for a year, you didn't even know it at the time. I have no problem with being 'outed' here.
Proceed.
 
Starshine said:
What do all of you think about wanting to be friends after a relationship, in general ?

I would say that it is NOT a good idea. It is the time to go each one his own way, cure ourself from the ending relationship and most importantly learn our lessons.
 
Gandalf said:
Starshine said:
What do all of you think about wanting to be friends after a relationship, in general ?

I would say that it is NOT a good idea. It is the time to go each one his own way, cure ourself from the ending relationship and most importantly learn our lessons.

That's usually true, especially in unhealthy relationships. I think it's also important to define what you mean by "friends". For instance, a friend does not stalk you (come to a forum you frequent in order to force an interaction with you). A friend does not insist on pursuing contact with you when you've tried to end the relationship. A friend does not make statements on a forum that are untrue (as history has done by implying that she had your consent to write here, has been reading the forum for a year and that you two are "fine"). A friend does not attack your family (mother) or say nasty things about your acquaintances when she doesn't get her way.

In fact, nothing in history's behavior as evidenced on this forum indicates that she was ever your friend and certainly is not now. There is no respect for your decisions and path being shown, there is only a rather desperate need to control and intrude and manage perceptions. I think the healthiest thing for history (and you) would be zero contact between the two of you - period. She was given this advice earlier when she was hiding behind her second username and she did not listen. So, here we are, having a long, drawn out conversation defined by the dysfunction of your relationship and by her inability to move on and - honestly - enough is enough.

People cannot be friends when one of them is obsessed with the other, whether they want to call it that or not. fwiw.
 
Starshine said:
Never told you to suscribe to this forum, nor was I aware that you registered under 'history'. As it's been said, we talked a lot about Sott in the beginning, before you didn't want to hear about it anymore. Partly my lesson here, on the way to talk about things.
From this last conversation, as I told you, you want to be here, then answer here. I am not going to answer to the phone anymore, nor to your mails. I am done. In the Swamp I said :
You can give as much details as you want, history..
I'm glad that you created this post if it is of any help for you.
I am the one concerned here. And I hope you're able to hear what I have to say.

I thought it helped, it seems that there is still problems between us, considering your last words.
What do all of you think about wanting to be friends after a relationship, in general ?
Talking about friendship when there is still (what we dare to call) love ?

Now, again, you want to be here, then answer here. I am not going to answer to the phone anymore, nor to your mails.
Period. It's been two interesting April Fool's Day.
The questions are worth considering, by the way. I had them in mind, I am not the only one to see it. You've not been reading the forum for a year, you didn't even know it at the time. I have no problem with being 'outed' here.
Proceed.

As you well know, we met on April Fool's Day, Starshine. You again leave out much and you're still making veiled references to how this was some predatory act and I am stalking you. I did call you this morning because I thought we had agreed we would not discuss our relationship in gory detail on the forum again without asking each other about it first and I didn't want to answer anart without checking in with you. What you intentionally leave out is that you called me back hours after we finished the morning conversation, so please do NOT mislead everyone here that I am endlessly calling you because that is not the case. You've actually called me more lately than I've called you.

I have been reading the forum almost for a year. You sent me to SOTT and therefore, the forum within days of meeting you. Please do not rewrite history. I have been reading both for very close to a year.

I will proceed to answer anart's questions but I am taking it to the thread in The Swamp where I started this discussion.
 
anart said:
That's usually true, especially in unhealthy relationships. I think it's also important to define what you mean by "friends". For instance, a friend does not stalk you (come to a forum you frequent in order to force an interaction with you). A friend does not insist on pursuing contact with you when you've tried to end the relationship. A friend does not make statements on a forum that are untrue (as history has done by implying that she had your consent to write here, has been reading the forum for a year and that you two are "fine"). A friend does not attack your family (mother) or say nasty things about your acquaintances when she doesn't get her way.

There is no forced interaction. Starshine and I have talked on and off, many times, since we have broken-up. It has been a difficult process. Many break-ups are. I did not make untrue statements. I did not say I had Starshine's consent to write here. I never even named him until HE CALLED ME and he told me he would out himself. I have been reading the forum since the very early part of April 2012 and as of last weekend we were "fine", telling each other we loved each other, crying and wishing each other well. He knew I was going to continue to be on the forum and he said he was happy for it. Read his own words.

anart said:
In fact, nothing in history's behavior as evidenced on this forum indicates that she was ever your friend and certainly is not now. There is no respect for your decisions and path being shown, there is only a rather desperate need to control and intrude and manage perceptions. I think the healthiest thing for history (and you) would be zero contact between the two of you - period. She was given this advice earlier when she was hiding behind her second username and she did not listen. So, here we are, having a long, drawn out conversation defined by the dysfunction of your relationship and by her inability to move on and - honestly - enough is enough.

People cannot be friends when one of them is obsessed with the other, whether they want to call it that or not. fwiw.


I will take the rest of this to The Swamp as I said I would.
 
history, the long and the short of it is that you followed him here and began talking about him to get a response from him. Trying to manage the perception of that is just continuing to lie to yourself and to others. It's past time for you to let him go. The age difference between you two is so marked that one would think that you would be the more mature person and recognize that and let him go. You don't seem to be able to do that, which speaks to obsession of one form or another. Using this forum to "get to him" is not what this forum is for and that has been pointed out to you - and it has been pointed out patiently and gently - but enough really is enough.
 
anart said:
history, the long and the short of it is that you followed him here and began talking about him to get a response from him. Period. Trying to manage the perception of that is just continuing to lie to yourself and to others. It's past time for you to let him go. The age difference between you two is so marked that one would think that you would be the more mature person and recognize that and let him go. You don't seem to be able to do that, which speaks to obsession of one form or another. Using this forum to "get to him" is not what this forum is for and that has been pointed out to you - and it has been pointed out patiently and gently - but enough really is enough.

Why don't you wait and see what I have to say in The Swamp before you write me off? Aren't you open to that your perception could be wrong?
 
history said:
As you well know, we met on April Fool's Day, Starshine. You again leave out much and you're still making veiled references to how this was some predatory act and I am stalking you. I did call you this morning because I thought we had agreed we would not discuss our relationship in gory detail on the forum again without asking each other about it first and I didn't want to answer anart without checking in with you. What you intentionally leave out is that you called me back hours after we finished the morning conversation, so please do NOT mislead everyone here that I am endlessly calling you because that is not the case. You've actually called me more lately than I've called you.

I have been reading the forum almost for a year. You sent me to SOTT and therefore, the forum within days of meeting you. Please do not rewrite history. I have been reading both for very close to a year.

I will proceed to answer anart's questions but I am taking it to the thread in The Swamp where I started this discussion.
I never said it was a predatory act from you, and I do think it is a dynamic through us. Can you understand the difference ?
You've got (at the time) what you needed from the Swamp, so you wanted this thread to die by himself. I agreed and I thought you had some more perspective.
You left a message this morning, told me to call you back. I did, and told you to say what you had to say here, right.
When I saw that you finally did not post to rather send me a lenghty mail, I called you back to say : where is your post ? Why did you answer privately ? And we ended up by you insulting me. Why do you even mention those things when you should guess I have some good memories about those facts ?
The last time I called you was after this Swamp session-you left me 5 vocal messages and 11 calls, it was really not the moment but I called you back-, and finally this time we ended up in a rather normal conversation. I thought something shifted. I really did.
Didn't I call you for obvious reasons, who left messages ? You wanted to come and see me in France.
And I never said either that you are endlessly calling me. Don't twist things. Who is misleading who here ? If I really want to evolve, you really think I can carry on a mask here ? You under-estimate the capacity of analysis that is going on around here.
I can see what is not friendship. And I told you we can't be friends. Where is the respect of my will here ? I can see you coming from far : What about your will, right ? It's all about me. Let's see what you have to say. Remember, I have memories and nothing to hide.
 
Starshine said:
I never said it was a predatory act from you, and I do think it is a dynamic through us. Can you understand the difference ?
Yes I understand the difference but if you knew that from the first night we were together and you were the one doing the Work then, wasn't it YOUR response-ability to make sure we were both safe and stop any further involvement? And please don't attack me for asking because I really don't know the answer but when I hear you say you knew something was wrong from the beginning that makes me wonder why YOU proceeded. Can you understand the difference?


Starshine said:
You've got (at the time) what you needed from the Swamp, so you wanted this thread to die by himself. I agreed and I thought you had some more perspective.
I do have more perspective and what has changed in YOU in a day is what really should be answered. Everything has been great since The Swamp thread and was even before you and I made peace right after The Swamp thread. I was finally free after The Swamp thread even without your participation. It was all good. And you wanted The Swamp thread to die as much as I did.


Starshine said:
You left a message this morning, told me to call you back. I did, and told you to say what you had to say here, right. When I saw that you finally did not post to rather send me a lenghty mail, I called you back to say : where is your post ? Why did you answer privately ? And we ended up by you insulting me. Why do you even mention those things when you should guess I have some good memories about those facts ?

I did NOT leave you a message this morning, you answered right when I called, so your "good memories about those facts" are not to be trusted! It was not a great call but it lasted for an hour and it was okay and we said good-bye. I thought that was it. YOU called me back several hours later, maybe to ask about where my post was, but I was busy and couldn't get to it earlier today, so I told you that is why I hadn't posted it. I sent you a private mail because some things ARE private and I thought we were good and I didn't know I couldn't send you private mail. The second call started out well but after you admitted you were still in love with me, you got angry and I got angry, I said "blank you" and I hung up. Then, I came home and you're going off on me on the Forum. Understandable, I suppose.


Starshine said:
The last time I called you was after this Swamp session-you left me 5 vocal messages and 11 calls, it was really not the moment but I called you back-, and finally this time we ended up in a rather normal conversation. I thought something shifted. I really did.
Didn't I call you for obvious reasons, who left messages ? You wanted to come and see me in France.

The last times you called me was two nights in a row the weekend before this last one, which was after The Swamp and the multiple calls you are referring to and those calls were generated all on your own. I had finally let go but we talked for hours and it was almost like old times and I really thought we were good and we would remain good. I did ask if you wanted to see me because I was so near and you said that it wasn't that you didn't want to see me but it was probably best that we didn't. I was absolutely fine with not seeing you and I didn't call again until this morning. All has been good for me. I had an amazing time on my journey and I got everything I needed. I came home, got to work, posted about interesting things on the Forum and I really thought all was well.


Starshine said:
And I never said either that you are endlessly calling me. Don't twist things. Who is misleading who here ? If I really want to evolve, you really think I can carry on a mask here ? You under-estimate the capacity of analysis that is going on around here.
No, but anart implied I was trying to constantly force communication and that impression came from somewhere. There is no underestimation of anything, certainly not now, and how clever of you to play to that here. I have laid out much more than I ever intended to here and sucked up every harsh word and what a surprise- it was HELPFUL! And I thought you were genuinely happy that I was finally finding peace.


Starshine said:
I can see what is not friendship. And I told you we can't be friends. Where is the respect of my will here ? I can see you coming from far : What about your will, right ? It's all about me. Let's see what you have to say. Remember, I have memories and nothing to hide.

You're right. It's not a friendship because that does take two and you've never been able to be friends with anyone you once or still love. You've admitted that. I however, am friends with everyone I have ever loved/been in romantic relationship with (except for the psychopath) and I know it takes time to get there but there has to be a Will and you clearly don't have it, that is abundantly obvious, despite that you are still in love with me (whatever that means), as you said today. It's sad. This has all broken my heart. I admit it. But you are misleading here because I told you today before I hung up that I accepted that we won't be friends because that is what you wanted. And as far it being all about you, it has been A LOT about you Starshine, much more than you are currently able to see or truthfully express to the people here.
 
history, I find it interesting that anart has asked (more than once) for you to explain your behavior under your previous screen name, and despite saying you would be happy to do so, this has not occurred. You went (IMO) from being quite belligerent and disrespectful of the Work that is done here and the people doing it, to suddenly claiming "I think you all are very smart and wise. I'm trying to "follow" along. That's it and everything."

And it seems clear to everyone but you, that what you said is not 'it and everything.' There are in fact some missing scenes.

Perhaps you could address your behavior under your previous screen name, and explain what has changed your viewpoint so much from before.

You also say "I'm here because I want to learn." What is it specifically you are wanting to learn about? Though really I think answering anart's pertinent questions about your past behavior would be more important to answer first, since you previously indicated that you would, but haven't.

Put yet another way: You came across as being against what the forum was about before, and now you're a super-fan. Can you see why there are questions as to your true motivation for being here, the concealment of your identity when you broke the forum rules to register a third time after being banned twice (also for not being able to follow the rules), etc.?
 
Just a quick reminder/timeline to save everyone's time:



Sunbeam said:
Yes, he's my boyfriend but if you continue to look for posts under my name, you will see there are none and that is because, as I stated, every time I stop by someone is attacking someone for reasons that are unclear, unwarranted, trying to prove superiority, and just a waste of time, imo, of course.

From what I've seen, many of you do your best to exclude others not in on your lingo, level of commitment, etc.


Sunbeam said:
My "resistance" is exactly this, not being able to offer an opinion without being accused of having some "deeper issue", blah blah.


anart said:
littlebook said:
You people have SERIOUS issues.

You'll be smoke the peace pipe on that, no doubt.

Sunbeam, you've been banned again and this time your IP has been blocked. I suggest you get professional mental health counseling, because your issues are too large for us to address here.


history said:
"I'm not a predator," said the wolf.


history said:
I've decided to finally write in to briefly introduce myself and because I'm struggling with a personal challenge and can't find the threads that may address my dilemma. I hope I am not violating board protocol by discussing this here.


history said:
I have no problem with anyone pointing out errors in my thinking. That is one of the reasons I am here but it is coming to me now, as I type this, that my annoyance, if you will, with this is that I feel like I have repeated myself many times and it just isn't enough and the topic is really not important.

That's it really, at least, for now. I have many other things going on, things I am working on here and beyond, and this is just not a priority and maybe that means I should have not posted about it and kept out the noise. My apology. I'm still learning the rules and enjoying and learning from the process.

Thank you.


history said:
I'm very grateful and want to continue to learn and grow. I think you all are very smart and wise. I'm trying to "follow" along. That's it and everything.


So...what changed? And are you still comfortable leaving all your previous words stand, because I certainly haven't heard any apologies, let alone an explanation of the reasoning behind your 'change of heart' towards this group or its purpose...or the deceptions of leaving out the real reason you 'decided finally to write an intro' a third time without acknowledging your past names, full well knowing that you were breaking the rules by circumventing the ban(s), yet you 'hoped you weren't violating board protocol.'

Did you ever get around to actually reading the forum guidelines? What did you think of them, and when/why did those thoughts change? Why specifically are you here (for a third time), and what do you hope to accomplish? And, what of your past behavior under the last two screen names anyways?
 
Jason (ocean59) said:
history, I find it interesting that anart has asked (more than once) for you to explain your behavior under your previous screen name, and despite saying you would be happy to do so, this has not occurred. You went (IMO) from being quite belligerent and disrespectful of the Work that is done here and the people doing it, to suddenly claiming "I think you all are very smart and wise. I'm trying to "follow" along. That's it and everything."

And it seems clear to everyone but you, that what you said is not 'it and everything.' There are in fact some missing scenes.


I am working on it. It will be up before tonight if at all possible.

And I am certainly aware there are missing scenes. There always are, as the devil is in the details, but I thought what I wrote was a good summary to that point but I will expand on it, as requested.
 
*Edit, to add this : I am not sure it is worth discussing it, I am not sure it is really interesting to everybody to read it, but now that this discussion has started, I'll continue. If someone think it is unapropriate, let us know.*

history said:
Starshine said:
I never said it was a predatory act from you, and I do think it is a dynamic through us. Can you understand the difference ?
Yes I understand the difference but if you knew that from the first night we were together and you were the one doing the Work then, wasn't it YOUR response-ability to make sure we were both safe and stop any further involvement? And please don't attack me for asking because I really don't know the answer but when I hear you say you knew something was wrong from the beginning that makes me wonder why YOU proceeded. Can you understand the difference?
I stated that I've been lying to myself on certain things, but to be more precise, I was not listening to myself and I wanted to wait what was going to happen. Also, events bonded us. It just happened and seemed natural.
I still have a lot of things to learn, and before talking about doing the Work, understanding what it really means to do it is is the first step. I'm still processing on self-observation, identifying Little I's, self-remembering, mastery of emotions, mind and and physical body.
What if I was not able to give this response-ability, because I was not really seeing what was happening ? I think it is part of the lesson and if it happened to be that way, there's great lessons to learn from it. And I did/still do learn a lot of it.
It is an important experience.
history said:
Starshine said:
You've got (at the time) what you needed from the Swamp, so you wanted this thread to die by himself. I agreed and I thought you had some more perspective.
I do have more perspective and what has changed in YOU in a day is what really should be answered. Everything has been great since The Swamp thread and was even before you and I made peace right after The Swamp thread. I was finally free after The Swamp thread even without your participation. It was all good. And you wanted The Swamp thread to die as much as I did.
Not really, I felt that's what you wanted to, so I agreed we should let it die. Nothing changed in me in a day, nor in months about this specific issue. Apart that i was released you were finally moving on. Remember, the questions that have been asked to you about certains things were adressed to you specifically, but you had to have my approval, or you wanted to keep the contact. As I said in my previous post, I called you to know why you prefered to send me a lenghty email rather than asnwering here. Considering the lenght of it, you had time to do it.
history said:
Starshine said:
You left a message this morning, told me to call you back. I did, and told you to say what you had to say here, right. When I saw that you finally did not post to rather send me a lenghty mail, I called you back to say : where is your post ? Why did you answer privately ? And we ended up by you insulting me. Why do you even mention those things when you should guess I have some good memories about those facts ?

I did NOT leave you a message this morning, you answered right when I called, so your "good memories about those facts" are not to be trusted! It was not a great call but it lasted for an hour and it was okay and we said good-bye. I thought that was it. YOU called me back several hours later, maybe to ask about where my post was, but I was busy and couldn't get to it earlier today, so I told you that is why I hadn't posted it. I sent you a private mail because some things ARE private and I thought we were good and I didn't know I couldn't send you private mail. The second call started out well but after you admitted you were still in love with me, you got angry and I got angry, I said "blank you" and I hung up. Then, I came home and you're going off on me on the Forum. Understandable, I suppose.

That is true, I answered actually, apologies, the fact that I called you back brought me back to a previous situation. Still, I have some good memories.
And yes, you absolutely wanted to hear it, that I still "love" you. Are you released I said so ? What do I mean by that actually ? That I still care about you. Good Chemistry as you love to say. Isn't that pretty obvious ? And that is what makes me angry, to feel that you're stuck, whatever I could say. It's not the first time that you finish a "discussion" by blank you. And I think you don't realise, altough I told you a bunch of time, that the way you express yourself go really quickly loud, rough and angry.
history said:
Starshine said:
The last time I called you was after this Swamp session-you left me 5 vocal messages and 11 calls, it was really not the moment but I called you back-, and finally this time we ended up in a rather normal conversation. I thought something shifted. I really did.
Didn't I call you for obvious reasons, who left messages ? You wanted to come and see me in France.

The last times you called me was two nights in a row the weekend before this last one, which was after The Swamp and the multiple calls you are referring to and those calls were generated all on your own. I had finally let go but we talked for hours and it was almost like old times and I really thought we were good and we would remain good. I did ask if you wanted to see me because I was so near and you said that it wasn't that you didn't want to see me but it was probably best that we didn't. I was absolutely fine with not seeing you and I didn't call again until this morning. All has been good for me. I had an amazing time on my journey and I got everything I needed. I came home, got to work, posted about interesting things on the Forum and I really thought all was well.
Generated on my own ? If I was in a "row", maybe I was busy, and it was just not the moment ? I was with a bunch of people, including my mother and some friends, but after seeing your insistance, I decided to call you back. And they got worried about me again, because they fastly knew it was you on the other side. They can tell, for sure, considering my apparent concerns. Everybody around me think it's just too much now. I'll keep my words.
I was right, it was not the best thing to do.

history said:
Starshine said:
And I never said either that you are endlessly calling me. Don't twist things. Who is misleading who here ? If I really want to evolve, you really think I can carry on a mask here ? You under-estimate the capacity of analysis that is going on around here.
No, but anart implied I was trying to constantly force communication and that impression came from somewhere. There is no underestimation of anything, certainly not now, and how clever of you to play to that here. I have laid out much more than I ever intended to here and sucked up every harsh word and what a surprise- it was HELPFUL! And I thought you were genuinely happy that I was finally finding peace.

From somewhere ? I wonder where ? I am not playing at all. It was your will to talk here, on this specific forum. And I thought it helped you, it was a release. But considering what just happened, I really have no idea of what you consider as peace.
history said:
Starshine said:
I can see what is not friendship. And I told you we can't be friends. Where is the respect of my will here ? I can see you coming from far : What about your will, right ? It's all about me. Let's see what you have to say. Remember, I have memories and nothing to hide.
You're right. It's not a friendship because that does take two and you've never been able to be friends with anyone you once or still love. You've admitted that. I however, am friends with everyone I have ever loved/been in romantic relationship with (except for the psychopath) and I know it takes time to get there but there has to be a Will and you clearly don't have it, that is abundantly obvious, despite that you are still in love with me (whatever that means), as you said today. It's sad. This has all broken my heart. I admit it. But you are misleading here because I told you today before I hung up that I accepted that we won't be friends because that is what you wanted. And as far it being all about you, it has been A LOT about you Starshine, much more than you are currently able to see or truthfully express to the people here.
Everyone ? So what is friendship to you ? The key is possession.
It is not possible for us to be friends for obvious reasons.
 
Just my personal opinion here, but I truly think you are using "the Swamp" as an excuse here. Let me again demonstrate by pasting replies, if i may...

history said:
I'm taking this to The Swamp.

Thank you.

what changed? And are you still comfortable leaving all your previous words stand, because I certainly haven't heard any apologies, let alone an explanation of the reasoning behind your 'change of heart' towards this group or its purpose...or the deceptions of leaving out the real reason you 'decided finally to write an intro' a third time without acknowledging your past names, full well knowing that you were breaking the rules by circumventing the ban(s), yet you 'hoped you weren't violating board protocol.'

Did you ever get around to actually reading the forum guidelines? What did you think of them, and when/why did those thoughts change? Why specifically are you here (for a third time), and what do you hope to accomplish? And, what of your past behavior under the last two screen names anyways?

and also...

Jason (ocean59) said:
You went (IMO) from being quite belligerent and disrespectful of the Work that is done here and the people doing it, to suddenly claiming "I think you all are very smart and wise. I'm trying to "follow" along. That's it and everything."

And it seems clear to everyone but you, that what you said is not 'it and everything.' There are in fact some missing scenes.

Perhaps you could address your behavior under your previous screen name, and explain what has changed your viewpoint so much from before.

You also say "I'm here because I want to learn." What is it specifically you are wanting to learn about? Though really I think answering anart's pertinent questions about your past behavior would be more important to answer first, since you previously indicated that you would, but haven't.

Put yet another way: You came across as being against what the forum was about before, and now you're a super-fan. Can you see why there are questions as to your true motivation for being here, the concealment of your identity when you broke the forum rules to register a third time after being banned twice (also for not being able to follow the rules), etc.?

Looking forward to your reply. Here, the swamp, or anywhere, or nowhere at all...
 
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