I am not averse to being called a Buddhist myself. I see Buddhism as trying to be a truth-based understanding of the world as it really is, rather than an unquestioned dogma based on myths. True there is not much discourse on psychopathy in Buddhism, and it may be more common to come across practitioners with a blind-faith in Buddhism rather than a reason-based faith, and in the long perspective the historical personage of Gautama Buddha was something of a Johnny-come-lately on the scene, but nevertheless I think it is still a pretty good "religion".fisheye said:
The frustration of friendship
- Thread starter KTC
- Start date
Palinurus said:
This remark of yours got me puzzled, RflctnOfU.
Speaking in general, people first and foremost want reassurance that all is well with the world and also, to be brought back into their comfort zone when things seem to be getting scary, ugly or whatever.
Hence the success of main stream media (religions and science included) which all are incessantly busy providing just that in all shapes and sizes continuously. The main message being, that it's safe to go back to sleep or to keep slumbering despite some uncomfortable distortions here and there.
But my main discomfort stems from your phrase Truth brings only 'suffering'. What happened to the notion The Truth will set you free?
Yes, there will be suffering through cognitive dissonance or whatever when you start to wake up. But you can make that a conscious suffering when you know about its existence and have mastered the way how to try doing that. It's a very productive way to work on the self IMO.
SOTT provides materials to ignite or strengthen this cognitive dissonance on a daily basis and this is done for explicit reasons AFAIK.
So in friendly discussions on whichever topic, it's all about presentation: i.e. allowing your partners to 'get it' on THEIR terms, accommodating and facilitating wherever and whenever you can, but respecting their free will and individual path to objective truth at their own speed and tempo. Just like Laura et al. do for us, really...
It's very difficult to accomplish --I know, been there done that and so on-- but we're here to learn just that, among myriad other things of course. FWIW. ;)
That bolded part - that the truth will set you free is the first part of the verbal formula. What is not included is that it will make you miserable first. That is what my statement referred to. And suffering won't have any beneficial value unless it is consciously made use of - through conscious labors and intentional suffering, as you mentioned. The Truth is a very high density set of nutrients for the Being. Unless your psycho-physiology is prepared beforehand to be able to assimilate the 'diet'/Truth -- quite similar with the preparation of the body to be able to assimilate a Ketogenic Diet -- negative consequences will ensue. My overall point was that Truth is NOT for everyone....one has to have a 'hunger' for Truth. It is externally inconsiderate to 'force-feed' Truth to those who want nothing to do with it.
FWIW, I think the Truth is the only thing that matters - but I, personally, am prepared to suffer, for a time, in order to Bear Objective Witness to reality/Truth.
Kris
Menna
The Living Force
"I feel I am so in my infancy of learning. I have only just started reading 'Beezlebubs Tales' so I will continue on that path.
I know I am angry and can be very unreasonable.
Its just so much information that I am taking in that goes against so much of what we are fed and its such a lonely road that yes, sometimes I do feel "if only I could convince someone to join me" which I realise is not the way so I have much to learn and a long road yet."
Tough to teach when in infancy. Also the "if only I could convince someone to join me". This is a good sentence to look at I feel it will show you maybe what you could be working on. "Convince" and "join me" (on my path). Reeks of STS and CO dependency. If you are going around in infancy trying to convince people that logicaly seems like it won't be successful. Also the join me part of that quote points to co-dependence. I feel that the reason that this path feels like a burden is because it is lonely. Could be why wanting someone to join is in your vocabulary at this point. Enjoy your friend her views. I believe there is truth in alot of practices and beliefs can you find it? I wouldn't worry about someone joining you I would be more focus on you when it comes to the work not convincing others. Its also possible that two people on the same path may never join each other. More so if the path is a long one like this one
I know I am angry and can be very unreasonable.
Its just so much information that I am taking in that goes against so much of what we are fed and its such a lonely road that yes, sometimes I do feel "if only I could convince someone to join me" which I realise is not the way so I have much to learn and a long road yet."
Tough to teach when in infancy. Also the "if only I could convince someone to join me". This is a good sentence to look at I feel it will show you maybe what you could be working on. "Convince" and "join me" (on my path). Reeks of STS and CO dependency. If you are going around in infancy trying to convince people that logicaly seems like it won't be successful. Also the join me part of that quote points to co-dependence. I feel that the reason that this path feels like a burden is because it is lonely. Could be why wanting someone to join is in your vocabulary at this point. Enjoy your friend her views. I believe there is truth in alot of practices and beliefs can you find it? I wouldn't worry about someone joining you I would be more focus on you when it comes to the work not convincing others. Its also possible that two people on the same path may never join each other. More so if the path is a long one like this one
[quote author=fisheye ]
Its just so much information that I am taking in that goes against so much of what we are fed and its such a lonely road that yes, sometimes I do feel "if only I could convince someone to join me" which I realise is not the way so I have much to learn and a long road yet.
[..]
Back to the drawing board, I have much work to do.. and a friendship to nurture.
[/quote]
Fwiw fisheye, it seems natural to want to share new information with friends, family and acquaintances that is contrary to what is agreed upon in the main. It is also realized that sleeping makes up most of our human condition: "Confluence and waking sleep" here. It is very likely that sometimes many of us here have or still do fall into internal considering traps when the external was required. For myself this is true and a constant battle to remember the other continually, even at the expense of having to listen to untruths from those close because they are not ready to think in other terms - they still have many sacred cows. So yes, it can feel lonely, yet we are never really alone, the universe seems to come up with help. One such notion that you could remember in situations like these, when faced with complete subjective information from said friends, is that you would know that there are many people who feel and think in other ways that are collinear with objective reality, they too are trying to do the work, and as said before, you are not alone.
There is much information to take in, just take it a step at a time.
Its just so much information that I am taking in that goes against so much of what we are fed and its such a lonely road that yes, sometimes I do feel "if only I could convince someone to join me" which I realise is not the way so I have much to learn and a long road yet.
[..]
Back to the drawing board, I have much work to do.. and a friendship to nurture.
[/quote]
Fwiw fisheye, it seems natural to want to share new information with friends, family and acquaintances that is contrary to what is agreed upon in the main. It is also realized that sleeping makes up most of our human condition: "Confluence and waking sleep" here. It is very likely that sometimes many of us here have or still do fall into internal considering traps when the external was required. For myself this is true and a constant battle to remember the other continually, even at the expense of having to listen to untruths from those close because they are not ready to think in other terms - they still have many sacred cows. So yes, it can feel lonely, yet we are never really alone, the universe seems to come up with help. One such notion that you could remember in situations like these, when faced with complete subjective information from said friends, is that you would know that there are many people who feel and think in other ways that are collinear with objective reality, they too are trying to do the work, and as said before, you are not alone.
There is much information to take in, just take it a step at a time.
celtic
Jedi Master
fisheye said:
Fisheye I understand your frustration, I once had the same subjective understanding in the beginning of my work. It took me a while to come to terms with what everyone has said so far on the forum. It preceeded with trail and error and after awhile I came to accept it. It is not an easy process and it will take time if you are a beginner. I am still struggling to work on myself and control my own anger and subjective understandings. Just yesterday I got into a mild confrontation with my own cousin because I was unable to control my anger. I still have feelings of fear and despair in my heart but I am working diligently on improving it. Therefore, you are not alone and that is why it is important network so you can work on your own machine "I".
topdrawer
The Force is Strong With This One
This is a very difficult experiment, but a lot of fun if you can pull it off:
Someone is presuming to "enlighten" you regarding a subject about which you are completely well-informed.
Just go along with it, pretending to be ignorant but very interested and curious. Ask questions, pretend to be impressed with their knowledge, even if it is totally wrong or misinformed.
topdrawer said:
This is a very difficult experiment, but a lot of fun if you can pull it off:
Someone is presuming to "enlighten" you regarding a subject about which you are completely well-informed.
Just go along with it, pretending to be ignorant but very interested and curious. Ask questions, pretend to be impressed with their knowledge, even if it is totally wrong or misinformed.
Yeah, this is a great way to see one's own self importance in conversation. It's amazing how often we are just waiting for our turn to speak instead of truly listening to the other person, and of course listening is the first step to being able to actually give help, if wanted.
supriyanoel
Jedi
Before I found this Work, I asked myself what I was getting out of trying to enlighten others with my so-called truth. The need to be right offered the promise of a certain comfort in bringing others around to see my truth, my higher knowledge. A debate team may have been more along the lines of honesty. At least as sport.
I couldn't honestly say it was important that anyone learn from me or that I really personally cared. Rather a self-manipulation of looking for love. Acceptance. None of it conscious. Wanting to be needed. In other words needy. Hungry, much like the craving for sugar, which I'll bet is directly related neurologically to these continuous actions of being right and basically winning the attention and control of others, which we know is self-defeating. Taking an unwilling or willing prisoner in the guise of helping.(see Predators Mind) Either way I never felt uplifted by either outcome. I realized I was being drained by something in me. I knew it was the ego, but I didn't know what to do about it. Which is WHY a lot of people , including myself have sought out religion, as your friend may have.
Fortunately for me I found this website and the people that were like-minded looking to do this work. I needed a network. I found P.D Ouspensky and the Fourth Way in 1985 and thought it was the most enlightening stuff I'd ever come upon. But no one I knew did that work or wanted to read it, so there wasn't a mirror that was so effective. A truth I found was learning the mechanics of why I responded to what I observed, and the tools to work with. Now years later I find this life-supporting site. Only on this website it goes a little beyond required reading, to say the least. I don't think a stone is left unturned, Many contribute and it is more than a lifeline to me.
You are so willing to learn I think. As we all are here. Your sharing is brave and open. Thank you for being here.
I couldn't honestly say it was important that anyone learn from me or that I really personally cared. Rather a self-manipulation of looking for love. Acceptance. None of it conscious. Wanting to be needed. In other words needy. Hungry, much like the craving for sugar, which I'll bet is directly related neurologically to these continuous actions of being right and basically winning the attention and control of others, which we know is self-defeating. Taking an unwilling or willing prisoner in the guise of helping.(see Predators Mind) Either way I never felt uplifted by either outcome. I realized I was being drained by something in me. I knew it was the ego, but I didn't know what to do about it. Which is WHY a lot of people , including myself have sought out religion, as your friend may have.
Fortunately for me I found this website and the people that were like-minded looking to do this work. I needed a network. I found P.D Ouspensky and the Fourth Way in 1985 and thought it was the most enlightening stuff I'd ever come upon. But no one I knew did that work or wanted to read it, so there wasn't a mirror that was so effective. A truth I found was learning the mechanics of why I responded to what I observed, and the tools to work with. Now years later I find this life-supporting site. Only on this website it goes a little beyond required reading, to say the least. I don't think a stone is left unturned, Many contribute and it is more than a lifeline to me.
You are so willing to learn I think. As we all are here. Your sharing is brave and open. Thank you for being here.
Thank you for this thread, it is one subject so difficult and so present and personally I deal with it every day because I am surrounded by people who are asleep. External consideration is for me the most difficult thing to work and it is interesting to see my anger also showing her head and looking at me. My best friend is asleep and it is with him that I started to work External Consideration. When we talk together every Sunday by Skype and subjects like Iran or Global Warming come between us I keep silence and listen to him. Some months ago anger was there in me but gradually I am not anymore angry with him, I see how kind he is, how gentle, how lucky I am to have him as a friend and I refuse that the false concept of Global Warming and the lies of mister Gore can put our friendship in question. But it is very difficult to see how people are robotic, and myself also how mechanical I am. I am a good listener so yes, it can be very fun to listen. It is more difficult when you are in front of someone you love but who am I? External consideration is acceptance of the other in his integrity, his road, his world and I am nobody to put this in question. Why it is so difficult to accept the other where he is? We wanted, ourselves, to be accepted as we are in this moment, so why it is so complicated when in front of the other? I always repeat, and repeat to myself: you where so much ignorant some months ago, so are so much ignorant now, so stop. I think we judge and this is the problem. External consideration I think is not judging the others. And accepting that this anger that we feel is a sort of projection.
FWIW, fisheye, I do so relate to what you have said here. I am still learning when to bite my tongue or sit on my hands, when people react a certain way and my anger or distress gets triggered. What I have found to be helpful is get up when a difficult moment arises and do some housework, which calms me down. The other day a lady that I don't know attacked a friend of mine online and I really had to constrain myself. So I did the laundry instead, cursing and spitting internally. 
I also find it helpful to read other threads where external consideration is discussed. It has helped me a lot. At first I couldn't grasp the concept, because it was still very theoretical to me. Experiences and lessons of others have helped me understand it better.
Just wanted to share an example. A while ago I met a friend in town. Before going down there I literally instructed myself on what to do or not. And I think I rehearsed it a couple of times. :/ I wasn't going to mention the diet (last time I did that she became defensive, because I pushed the topic too much), I wasn't going to use the word psychopath (that would be too much for her) and I would ask about her morning first, because I knew she had been through a trying situation.
And an amazing thing happened. At first, it was obvious she felt upset. But her mood soon lifted after I asked her about it and how she was feeling.
We went on to discuss a person that is wreaking havoc in my community and she herself came up with the word pathological. I almost fell off my chair. She also made a positive comment about my diet.
So this can happen, when I learn to shut up? :D As a result I felt more connected and closer to her than ever before. I could also see more clearly who she really was.
I actually think that EC makes life so much easier. I don't have to educate others anymore, I don't have to feel responsible, it is not up to me. What a tremendous relief!
I am also trying to be EC WRT my youngest son, with whom I often butt heads. The atmosphere in our home has changed dramatically, OSIT. Because I am trying to put myself in the shoes of a teen-ager, who has seen his mother stumble and fall many a time.
I think loreta has expressed it beautifully:
Added: something about the diet. Some improvements here and there.
I also find it helpful to read other threads where external consideration is discussed. It has helped me a lot. At first I couldn't grasp the concept, because it was still very theoretical to me. Experiences and lessons of others have helped me understand it better.
Just wanted to share an example. A while ago I met a friend in town. Before going down there I literally instructed myself on what to do or not. And I think I rehearsed it a couple of times. :/ I wasn't going to mention the diet (last time I did that she became defensive, because I pushed the topic too much), I wasn't going to use the word psychopath (that would be too much for her) and I would ask about her morning first, because I knew she had been through a trying situation.
And an amazing thing happened. At first, it was obvious she felt upset. But her mood soon lifted after I asked her about it and how she was feeling.
We went on to discuss a person that is wreaking havoc in my community and she herself came up with the word pathological. I almost fell off my chair. She also made a positive comment about my diet.
So this can happen, when I learn to shut up? :D As a result I felt more connected and closer to her than ever before. I could also see more clearly who she really was.
I actually think that EC makes life so much easier. I don't have to educate others anymore, I don't have to feel responsible, it is not up to me. What a tremendous relief!
I am also trying to be EC WRT my youngest son, with whom I often butt heads. The atmosphere in our home has changed dramatically, OSIT. Because I am trying to put myself in the shoes of a teen-ager, who has seen his mother stumble and fall many a time.
I think loreta has expressed it beautifully:
loreta said:
Added: something about the diet. Some improvements here and there.
nobodyslave
Padawan Learner
Hi Fisheye,
Some great responses here. FWIW, (If you haven't already), I would suggest you apologise to your friend. Admit that even though you both have different views on the state of the world, religion, etc, there is still much to learn from one another, and that sometimes it's a matter of agreeing to disagree. osit.
Just to clarify, were you angry with her because she didn't conform to your way of thinking, or because she was trying to bring you around to hers? Seems to me you were both going for the same objective and possibly frustrating each other in the process. Irony's kind of ironic that way. ;D
There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate between friends, as long as there is respect for the others position. Next time you feel that familiar sense of frustration and anger welling up within you when someone isn't complying to your ideas on a sensitive topic, use that as an indication to back off and only express your views when asked. It's not easy to do, but it may just save a friendship.
I can understand your frustration though, I too have been there before. Whenever the topic of 911 used to come up in conversation, I was all over it. I would become very frustrated with people disregarding the facts I had so eloquently presented to them, and automatically labelling me a conspiracy theorist. That got old really quick, and I learnt that the majority will only see the through the lies, as long as it didn't breach their comfort zone. Of course I don't condone this line of thinking, but I can respect it as their position at this point in"time".
When it is time for the uninformed and ignorant to hear the truth on all facets of life, I trust it will be presented to them to explore when they are ready to hear it. Myself included.
I hope this helps in some way fisheye. From one student of life to another......happy learning.
Some great responses here. FWIW, (If you haven't already), I would suggest you apologise to your friend. Admit that even though you both have different views on the state of the world, religion, etc, there is still much to learn from one another, and that sometimes it's a matter of agreeing to disagree. osit.
Just to clarify, were you angry with her because she didn't conform to your way of thinking, or because she was trying to bring you around to hers? Seems to me you were both going for the same objective and possibly frustrating each other in the process. Irony's kind of ironic that way. ;D
There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate between friends, as long as there is respect for the others position. Next time you feel that familiar sense of frustration and anger welling up within you when someone isn't complying to your ideas on a sensitive topic, use that as an indication to back off and only express your views when asked. It's not easy to do, but it may just save a friendship.
I can understand your frustration though, I too have been there before. Whenever the topic of 911 used to come up in conversation, I was all over it. I would become very frustrated with people disregarding the facts I had so eloquently presented to them, and automatically labelling me a conspiracy theorist. That got old really quick, and I learnt that the majority will only see the through the lies, as long as it didn't breach their comfort zone. Of course I don't condone this line of thinking, but I can respect it as their position at this point in"time".
When it is time for the uninformed and ignorant to hear the truth on all facets of life, I trust it will be presented to them to explore when they are ready to hear it. Myself included.
I hope this helps in some way fisheye. From one student of life to another......happy learning.
Oh yes,
This whole experience has made me realise the importance of self learning. I am glad I shared this with the forum because it has helped deal with the frustration and anger I was feeling.. and not just from that one conversation.
I realised that I was angry in general. I thought I was angry because of everyone else, that they didn't see things, that they just accepted mass media and never questioned anything. But the fact that I was angry was actually quite selfish. It was a pointless emotion that was getting me nowhere.
Instead of worrying where others are in their learning I am now focussing more on my own. I have found it much more productive, has calmed my mind and I am no longer angry because its not my concern.
This whole experience has made me realise the importance of self learning. I am glad I shared this with the forum because it has helped deal with the frustration and anger I was feeling.. and not just from that one conversation.
I realised that I was angry in general. I thought I was angry because of everyone else, that they didn't see things, that they just accepted mass media and never questioned anything. But the fact that I was angry was actually quite selfish. It was a pointless emotion that was getting me nowhere.
Instead of worrying where others are in their learning I am now focussing more on my own. I have found it much more productive, has calmed my mind and I am no longer angry because its not my concern.
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