The Holy Planet Purgatory - Creation of All - Why are we here - Laws

[Oxajil]

"If we grasp its full meaning the law of octaves gives us an entirely new explanation of the whole of life, of the progress and development of phenomena on all planes of the universe observed by us." - G.I. Gurdjieff

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Part II

Before I continue with 'Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson' I want to post parts from the book 'In Search of The Miraculous' concerning 'the Law of Seven' and also 'the Law of Three'. (see my previous posts for other parts from ISOTM that also relates to these two laws.)

--

On page 129 you can read [only bolded by me]:

"In right knowledge the study of man must proceed on parallel lines with the study of the world, and the study of the world must run parallel with the study of man. Laws are everywhere the same, in the world as well as in man. Having mastered the principles of any one law we must look for its manifestation in the world and in man simultaneously. Moreover, some laws are more easily observed in the world, others are more easily observed in man. Therefore in certain cases it is better to begin with the world and then to pass on to man, and in other cases it is better to begin with man and then to pass on to the world.

"This parallel study of the world and of man shows the student the fundamental unity of everything and helps him to find analogies in phenomena of different orders.

"The number of fundamental laws which govern all processes both in the world and in man is very small. Different numerical combinations of a few elementary forces create all the seeming variety of phenomena.

"In order to understand the mechanics of the universe it is necessary to resolve complex phenomena into these elementary forces.

"The first fundamental law of the universe is the law of three forces, or three principles, or, as it is often called, the law of three. According to this law every action, every phenomenon in all worlds without exception, is the result of a simultaneous action of three forces—the positive, the negative, and the neutralizing. Of this we have already spoken, and in future we will return to this law with every new line of study.

"The next fundamental law of the universe is the law of seven or the law of octaves.

"In order to understand the meaning of this law it is necessary to regard the universe as consisting of vibrations. These vibrations proceed in all kinds, aspects, and densities of the matter which constitutes the universe, from the finest to the coarsest; they issue from various sources and proceed in various directions, crossing one another, colliding, strengthening, weakening, arresting one another, and so on.

"In this connection according to the usual views accepted in the West, vibrations are continuous. This means that vibrations are usually regarded as proceeding uninterruptedly, ascending or descending so long as there continues to act the force of the original impulse which caused the vibration and which overcomes the resistance of the medium in which the vibrations proceed. When the force of the impulse becomes exhausted and the resistance of the medium gains the upper hand the vibrations naturally die down and stop. But until this moment is reached, that is, until the beginning of the natural weakening, the vibrations develop uniformly and gradually, and, in the absence of resistance, can even be endless. So that one of the fundamental propositions of our physics is the continuity of vibrations, although this has never been precisely formulated because it has never been opposed. In certain of the newest theories this proposition is beginning to be shaken. Nevertheless physics is still very far from a correct view on the nature of vibrations, or what corresponds to our conception of vibrations, in the real world.

"In this instance the view of ancient knowledge is opposed to that of contemporary science because at the base of the understanding of vibrations ancient knowledge places the principle of the discontinuity of vibrations.

Before I go on I want to say that while reading 'continuity of vibrations' and 'discontinuity of vibrations' it reminded me of this:

"This mechanical movement was specially helped by the fact that the need of food of this, as well as of all other cosmoses, was not continuous but periodic. "When our Endlessness observed this unforeseen phenomenon, the idea first arose in Him for the governance of the enlarged Universe, to create for Himself from these Tritacosomoses, a certain help......

"The principle of the discontinuity of vibration means the definite and necessary characteristic of all vibrations in nature, whether ascending or descending, to develop not uniformly but with periodical accelerations and retardations. This principle can be formulated still more precisely if we say that the force of the original impulse in vibrations does not act uniformly but, as it were, becomes alternately stronger and weaker. The force of the impulse acts without changing its nature and vibrations develop in a regular way only for a certain time which is determined by the nature of the impulse, the medium, the conditions, and so forth. But at a certain moment a kind of change takes place in it and the vibrations, so to speak, cease to obey it and for a short time they slow down and to a certain extent change their nature or direction; for example, ascending vibrations at a certain moment begin to ascend more slowly, and descending vibrations begin to descend more slowly. After this temporary retardation, both in ascending and descending, the vibrations again enter the former channel and for a certain time ascend or descend uniformly up to a certain moment when a check in their development again takes place. In this connection it is significant that the periods of uniform action of the momentum are not equal and that the moments of retardation of the vibrations are not symmetrical. One period is shorter, the other is longer.


"In order to determine these moments of retardation, or rather, the checks in the ascent and descent of vibrations, the lines of development of vibrations are divided into periods corresponding to the doubling or the halving of the number of vibrations in a given space of time.

"It has been found and established that in this interval of vibrations, between the given number of vibrations and a number twice as large, there are two places where a retardation in the increase of vibrations takes place. One is near the beginning but not at the beginning itself. The other occurs almost at the end.
"Approximately:

"The laws which govern the retardation or the deflection of vibrations from their primary direction were known to ancient science. These laws were duly incorporated into a particular formula or diagram which has been preserved up to our times. In this formula the period in which vibrations are doubled was divided into eight unequal steps corresponding to the rate of increase in the vibrations. The eighth step repeats the first step with double the number of vibrations. This period of the doubling of the vibrations, or the line of the development of vibrations, between a given number of vibrations and double that number, is called an octave, that is to say, composed of eight.

Okay let's stop here.

••summary•

□ periodical accelerations and retardations

□ the force of the original impulse in vibrations becomes (as it were) alternately stronger and weaker

□ at a certain moment a kind of change takes place in it and the vibrations, so to speak, cease to obey it and for a short time they slow down and to a certain extent change their nature or direction

for example:

- ascending vibrations at a certain moment begin to ascend more slowly
- and descending vibrations begin to descend more slowly

(I kind of thought to myself what we can understand with 'accelerations' and 'retardations' in physics. So I made this:
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3887/questiongi2.png But now that I think of it, I think it's of course a change in the 'vibration time', otherwise how could it then get 'slowly'? or 'faster'? If it's just a change in the amplitude, then the time (between each vibration) remains the same right? And when the time remains the same between each vibration, then there is no 'slower' (retardation) or 'faster' (accelerations) [that would be uniformly I think!!]
However a combination of the two might be possible. I think. )

□ After this temporary retardation, both in ascending and descending, the vibrations again enter the former channel and for a certain time ascend or descend uniformly up to a certain moment when a check in their development again takes place

(And what is exactly meant by 'ascending' and 'descending'? Vibrations going 'down' and 'up'? A(n increasing/decreasing) change in the amplitude? Or ascending and descending, as in 'musical scale's'? Or does it differ, because we have all kind of vibrations? .. What do you think?)

□ In this connection it is significant that the periods of uniform action of the momentum are not equal and that the moments of retardation of the vibrations are not symmetrical

(Which might remind us of :

"This disharmony of its subjective functioning, resulting from its 'asymmetry' in relation to the whole process of the sacred Heptaparaparshinokh, consists in the following:

"If the completing process of this sacred law flows in conditions in which it is subject to many 'extraneously' caused' vibrations, its functioning produces only external results.

"But if this same process takes place in absolute quiet, in the absence of any extraneously caused vibrations whatever, all the results of the functioning of this stopinder remain within that concentration in which the process is completed, and these results only become perceptible to the outside on direct and immediate contact with it.

"But if during the functioning of this process neither of these two sharply opposite conditions predominates, the results of its action usually divide into the external and the internal.")

---

□ In order to determine these moments of retardation the lines of development of vibrations are divided into periods corresponding to the doubling or the halving of the number of vibrations in a given space of time

---

□ In this formula the period in which vibrations are doubled was divided into eight unequal steps corresponding to the rate of increase in the vibrations

□ The eighth step repeats the first step with double the number of vibrations

□ This period of the doubling of the vibrations, or the line of the development of vibrations, between a given number of vibrations and double that number, is called an octave, that is to say, composed of eight

(Then this would be the 'octave' in this example right?:

Okay, let's read the above part again (if you want) and let's continue:)
••

"The principle of dividing into eight unequal parts the period, in which the vibrations are doubled, is based upon the observation of the non-uniform increase of vibrations in the entire octave, and separate 'steps' of the octave show acceleration and retardation at different moments of its development.

"In the guise of this formula ideas of the octave have been handed down from teacher to pupil, from one school to another. In very remote times one of these schools found that it was possible to apply this formula to music. In this way was obtained the seven-tone musical scale which was known in the most distant antiquity, then forgotten, and then discovered or 'found' again.

"The seven-tone scale is the formula of a cosmic law which was worked out by ancient schools and applied to music. At the same time, however, if we study the manifestations of the law of octaves in vibrations of other kinds we shall see that the laws are everywhere the same, and that light, heat, chemical, magnetic, and other vibrations are subject to the same laws as sound vibrations. For instance, the light scale is known to physics; in chemistry the periodic system of the elements is without doubt closely connected with the principle of octaves although this connection is still not fully clear to science.

"A study of the structure of the seven-tone musical scale gives a very good foundation for understanding the cosmic law of octaves.

As you might have already noticed; I don't know much about vibrations or musical scales! So before reading further I looked something up from Wiki (I know wiki isn't very reliable, but just for the sake of some data/info:)

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_scale

In music, a scale is a group of musical notes collected in ascending and descending order that provides material for or is used to conveniently represent part or all of a musical work including melody and/or harmony[1]. Scales are ordered in pitch or pitch class, with their ordering providing a measure of musical distance.

Scales are typically listed from low to high. A scale is octave-repeating when every pitch in the scale appears in every possible octave. An octave-repeating scale can be represented as a circular arrangement of pitch classes, ordered by increasing (or decreasing) pitch class. For instance, the increasing C major scale is, C-D-E-F-G-A-B-[C], with the bracket indicating that the last note is an octave higher than the first note. Or C-B-A-G-F-E-D-[C], with the bracket indicating an octave lower than the first note in the scale.

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave

In music, an octave (Play (help·info), sometimes abbreviated 8va (an octave above the indicated note(s), 8vo (an octave below), or P8) is the interval between one musical pitch and another with half or double its frequency.

Aha okay! Much resemblence to what Gurdjieff is saying about the law of seven. Everything I've read so far about this law has all these terms like intervals, vibrations, ascending and descending which sounds so much like the 'way' music is 'built' (Yea I'm slow on the catch-up ). Very interesting though.

Also: the laws are everywhere the same, and that light, heat, chemical, magnetic, and other vibrations are subject to the same laws as sound vibrations. For instance, the light scale is known to physics; in chemistry the periodic system of the elements is without doubt closely connected with the principle of octaves although this connection is still not fully clear to science.

Apparently, like we've read so many times: The laws are everywhere the same! So, not only the music scale is 'closely connected with the principle of octaves' but also everything else, like the 'light scale' or the 'periodic system'. Or so it seems.

"A study of the structure of the seven-tone musical scale gives a very good foundation for understanding the cosmic law of octaves.

"Let us again take the ascending octave, that is, the octave in which the frequency of vibrations increases.

OH! So ascending = increasing frequency of vibrations ! (So it was a change in 'vibration time'; non-existing term I think :P)
(frequency = a measure of the number of occurrences of a repeating event per unit time)

For example like this (from Wiki):

Sinusoidal waves of various frequencies; the bottom waves have
higher frequencies than those above. The horizontal axis represents time.

[emphasis and comment mine]

Let us suppose that this octave begins with one thousand vibrations a second. Let us designate these thousand vibrations by the note do. Vibrations are growing, that is, their frequency is increasing. At the point where they reach two thousand vibrations a second there will be a second do, that is, the do of the next octave.

"The period between one do and the next, that is, an octave, is divided into seven unequal parts because the frequency of vibrations does not increase uniformly.

"The ratio of the pitch of the notes, or of the frequency of vibrations will be as follows:

"If we take do as 1 then re will be 9/8 (1,125), mi 5/4 (1,25), fa 4/3 (1,333...), sol 3/2 (1,5), la 3/2 (1,5), si 15/8 (1,875), and do 2.

"The differences in the acceleration or increase in the notes or the difference in tone will be as follows:

between do and re 9/8 : 1 = 9/8 (1,125)
between re and mi 5/4 : 9/8 = 10/9 (1,111...)
between mi and fa 4/3 : 5/4 = 16/15 (1,0666...) increase retarded
between fa and sol 3/2 : 4/3 = 9/8 (1,125)
between sol and la 5/3 : 3/2 = 10/9 (1,111...)
between la and si 15/8 : 5/3 == 9/8 (1,125)
between si and do 2 : 15/8 = 16/15 (1,0666...) increase again retarded

"The differences in the notes or the differences in the pitch of the notes are called intervals. We see that there are three kinds of intervals in the octave: 9/8, 10/9, and 16/15, which in whole numbers correspond to 405, 400, and 384. The smallest interval 16/15 occurs between mi and fa and between si and do. These are precisely the places of retardation in the octave.

"In relation to the musical (seven-tone) scale it is generally considered (theoretically) that there are two semitones between each two notes, with the exception of the intervals mi-fa and si-do, which have only one semitone and in which one semitone is regarded as being left out.

"In this manner twenty notes are obtained, eight of which are fundamental:

I made another sketch here:

If you count the semitones (dots) [12] + the fundamental notes (do re etc.) [8] you count 20 notes in total

and twelve intermediate: two between each of the following two notes:

and one between each of the following two notes:

"But in practice, that is, in music, instead of twelve intermediate semitones only five are taken, that is one semitone between:

previous sketch:

So, in practice, only five are taken:

"Between mi and fa and between si and do the semitone is not taken at all.

"In this way the structure of the musical seven-tone scale gives a scheme of the cosmic law of 'intervals,' or absent semitones. In this respect when octaves are spoken of in a 'cosmic' or a 'mechanical' sense, only those intervals between mi-fa and si-do are called 'intervals'

"If we grasp its full meaning the law of octaves gives us an entirely new explanation of the whole of life, of the progress and development of phenomena on all planes of the universe observed by us. This law explains why there are no straight lines in nature and also why we can neither think nor do, why everything with us is thought, why everything happens with us and happens usually in a way opposed to what we want or expect. All this is the clear and direct effect of the 'intervals,' or retardations in the development of vibrations.

"What precisely does happen at the moment of the retardation of vibrations? A deviation from the original direction takes place. The octave begins in the direction shown by the arrow:

"But a deviation takes place between mi and fa; the line begun at do changes its direction

and through fa, sol, la, and si it descends at an angle to its original direction, shown by the first three notes. Between si and do the second 'interval' occurs—a fresh deviation, a further change of direction.

"The next octave gives an even more marked deviation, the one following that a deviation that is more marked still, so that the line of octaves may at last turn completely round and proceed in a direction opposite to the original direction.

"In developing further, the line of octaves or the line of development of vibrations may return to the original direction, in other words, make a complete circle.

"This law shows why straight lines never occur in our activities, why, having begun to do one thing, we in fact constantly do something entirely different, often the opposite of the first, although we do not notice this and continue to think that we are doing the same thing that we began to do.

"All this and many other things can only be explained with the help of the law of octaves together with an understanding of the role and significance of 'intervals' which cause the line of the development of force constantly to change, to go in a broken line, to turn round, to become its 'own opposite' and so on.

"Such a course of things, that is, a change of direction, we can observe in everything. After a certain period of energetic activity or strong emotion or a right understanding a reaction comes, work becomes tedious and tiring; moments of fatigue and indifference enter into feeling; instead of right thinking a search for compromises begins; suppression, evasion of difficult problems. But the line continues to develop though now not in the same direction as at the beginning. Work becomes mechanical, feeling becomes weaker and weaker, descends to the level of the common events of the day; thought becomes dogmatic, literal. Everything proceeds in this way for a certain time, then again there is reaction, again a stop, again a deviation. The development of the force may continue but the work which was begun with great zeal and enthusiasm has become an obligatory and useless formality; a number of entirely foreign elements have entered into feeling—considering, vexation, irritation, hostility; thought goes round in a circle, repeating what was known before, and the way out which had been found becomes more and more lost.

Wow! Exactly... what I've been seeing from myself.

"The same thing happens in all spheres of human activity. In literature, science, art, philosophy, religion, in individual and above all in social and political life, we can observe how the line of the development of forces deviates from its original direction and goes, after a certain time, in a diametrically opposite direction, still preserving its former name. A study of history from this point of view shows the most astonishing facts which mechanical humanity is far from desiring to notice. Perhaps the most interesting examples of such change of direction in the line of the development of forces can be found in the history of religion, particularly in the history of Christianity if it is studied dispassionately. Think how many turns the line of development of forces must have taken to come from the Gospel preaching of love to the Inquisition; or to go from the ascetics of the early centuries studying esoteric Christianity to the scholastics who calculated how many angels could be placed on the point of a needle.

"The law of octaves explains many phenomena in our lives which are incomprehensible.

"First is the principle of the deviation of forces.

"Second is the fact that nothing in the world stays in the same place, or remains what it was, everything moves, everything is going somewhere, is changing, and inevitably either develops or goes down, weakens or degenerates, that is to say, it moves along either an ascending or a descending line of octaves.

"And third, that in the actual development itself of both ascending and descending octaves, fluctuations, rises and falls are constantly taking place.

"We have spoken so far chiefly about the discontinuity of vibrations and about the deviation of forces. We must now clearly grasp two other principles: the inevitability of either ascent or descent in every line of development of forces, and also the periodic fluctuations, that is, rises and falls, in every line whether ascending or descending.

"Nothing can develop by staying on one level. Ascent or descent is the inevitable cosmic condition of any action. We neither understand nor see what is going on around and within us, either because we do not allow for the inevitability of descent when there is no ascent, or because we take descent to be ascent. These are two of the fundamental causes of our self-deception. We do not see the first one because we continually think that things can remain for a long time at the same level; and we do not see the second because ascents where we see them are in fact impossible, as impossible as it is to increase consciousness by mechanical means.

"Having learned to distinguish ascending and descending octaves in life we must learn to distinguish ascent and descent within the octaves themselves. Whatever sphere of our life we take we can see that nothing can ever remain level and constant; everywhere and in everything proceeds the swinging of the pendulum, everywhere and in everything the waves rise and fall. Our energy in one or another direction which suddenly increases and afterwards just as suddenly weakens; our moods which 'become better' or 'become worse' without any visible reason; our feelings, our desires, our intentions, our decisions—all from time to time pass through periods of ascent or descent, become stronger or weaker.

"And there are perhaps a hundred pendulums moving here and there in man. (which reminds me a little of what the C's say: 'cycles within cycles') These ascents and descents, these wave-like fluctuations of moods, thought, feelings, energy, determination, are periods of the development of forces between 'intervals' in the octaves as well as the 'intervals' themselves.

"Upon the law of octaves in its three principal manifestations depend many phenomena both of a psychic nature as well as those immediately connected with our life. Upon the law of octaves depends the imperfection and the incompleteness of our knowledge in all spheres without exception, chiefly because we always begin in one direction and afterwards without noticing it proceed in another.

"As has been said already, the law of octaves in all its manifestations was known to ancient knowledge. "Even our division of time, that is, the days of the week into work days and Sundays, is connected with the same properties and inner conditions of our activity which depend upon the general law. The Biblical myth of the creation of the world in six days and of the seventh day in which God rested from his labors is also an expression of the law of octaves or an indication of it, though an incomplete one.

"Observations based on an understanding of the law of octaves show that 'vibrations' may develop in different ways. In interrupted octaves they merely begin and fall, are drowned or swallowed up by other, stronger, vibrations which intersect them or which go in an opposite direction. In octaves which deviate from the original direction the vibrations change their nature and give results opposite to those which might have been expected at the beginning.

"And it is only in octaves of a cosmic order, both descending and ascending, that vibrations develop in a consecutive and orderly way, following the same direction in which they started.

"Further observations show that a right and consistent development of octaves, although rare, can be observed in all the occasions of life and in the activity of nature and even in human activity.

"The right development of these octaves is based on what looks an accident. It sometimes happens that octaves going parallel to the given octave, intersecting or meeting it, in some way or another fill up its 'intervals' and make it possible for the vibrations of the given octave to develop in freedom and without checks. Observation of such rightly developing octaves establishes the fact that if at the necessary moment, that is, at the moment when the given octave passes through an 'interval,' there enters into it an 'additional shock' which corresponds in force and character, it will develop further without hindrance along the original direction, neither losing anything nor changing its nature.

Hmm.. much to ponder about. I'll go on in the next part.

 

[anart]

Hi Oxajil, you've invested quite a large amount of energy in exhibiting certain aspects of information from these books.  I'm wondering at this point about how you think it applies to the life you are living - in a nuts and bolts way.  In short, how are you making it your own - how have you applied it - what does it really mean to you as far as your development and awakening is concerned? Is it wiseacring or is it applicable, and if it is applicable, how so?

Due to the amount of time and energy you've put into this analysis, I'm just interested in your personal take on this?

 

[Oxajil]

Hi Oxajil, you've invested quite a large amount of energy in exhibiting certain aspects of information from these books. I'm wondering at this point about how you think it applies to the life you are living - in a nuts and bolts way. In short, how are you making it your own - how have you applied it - what does it really mean to you as far as your development and awakening is concerned? Is it wiseacring or is it applicable, and if it is applicable, how so?

Due to the amount of time and energy you've put into this analysis, I'm just interested in your personal take on this?

Hi anart,

Good question. You see, I have always suffered of some kind of short time memory loss. I don't know if this is something I can call a disability or just something everyone suffers from. Anyhow, everytime I read a book, I don't feel like I am reading it. It feels like I'm just reading it and that's just it, this might be seen by Gurdjieff as mechanical reading. Gurdjieff suggested to read a book three times, but boy, do I need a lot of pushing on myself to actually read a book three times (and then not to try to read it 3 times mechanically or 'on purpose'). Like G. said, all the effort could be waisted on trying to fight these opposite forces that stand in the way of your goals, a little goal such as for example reading a book three times. So I found another way to try to understand and to truly read a book, of course, it doesn't mean that this way I'm actually Reading a book with my whole being and Understanding it. But at least it is a try to do so. And while doing so, I thought, why not share it? Writing, putting some pieces together, trying to look up things that I don't understand, re-reading it, I think that all, makes it more understandable for me, since I'm not one of the brightest around and since my English is not that perfect.
Once I understand this particular info from for example ISOTM 'better', it is more fun for me to re-read this book again. It's like tricking my machine to make it easier to re-read books. It will be more fun to me and more understandable than if I would read it, without looking things up, writing down what I've learned, making sketches etc. I guess this is wiseacring for me.

I thought that it also might be helpful for other readers to read, to share idea's and to think together about certain things.

How is this all applicibale in my life? The first thing I found interesting from G.'s work is that he said that we are machines. And one of my goals is to become master of myself or close to that. But the question remains: how can one try to become master of oneself? I think one of the first steps to that is to understand the machine itself. I'm working on numerous ''projects'' at the same time. Reading the Wave at the same time. So there is a lot of effort and time put into all of it. But going along, I've learned a lot of things and I think I'm learning more and more about my machine and the world around us.

If you suggest another way for me to do the Work, please do so. I'm open for all kind of options.

 

[RflctnOfU]

It sometimes happens that octaves going parallel to the given octave, intersecting or meeting it, in some way or another fill up its 'intervals' and make it possible for the vibrations of the given octave to develop in freedom and without checks.

Keep in mind that the parallel octaves, utilized consciously for any aim, that is, completing the 'circle', will consist of three such parallel octaves, as a series of interlocking triads.

G said (I think this is a direct quote): "the higher blends with the lower to actualize the middle, the results of which become higher for the succeeding lower, or lower for the succeeding higher" or, "every stick has two ends."

A very simple example of interlocking triads is as follows:

I wish to obtain, from a loaf of bread, a piece, so that I may consume it. My arm blends with the knife resulting in the ability to slice...the slicing blends with the loaf resulting in the piece I wish to consume...etc..

The higher octave in this case would be the line of force followed by my body. The lower octave would be the line of force followed by the bread. The middle octave would be the line of force followed by the 'tools' to allow preparation of the bread. All three are blended into one process of a series of interlocking triads, as described above.

Slightly 'switching gears', I would like to bring up G's assertion that numbers/mathematics are the only objective language. Numbers contain an 'essence', a quality, which is 'well' beyond the one-dimensional representation of quantity that we usually associate with numbers. This is, in my opinion, what he was getting at with his "Laws of World Creation and World Maintenance". He was attempting to awaken man to the quality of numbers, the 'divinity' of numbers.

Man number 4 is one who has a real "I". He has added a fourth 'point', non-tangent with the, in the ideal case, plane formed of his three centers (points) in equilateral formation. He has gone from a 'surface/plane' to a 'volume/space': becoming real, or having subsistence/substance. '3 dimensional space'

Before a "man" can realize this, he must first become 3, that is, following the basic geometric analogy, become 2 dimensional. But before that, man must first become 2 (points), a line/one-dimensional, binary, opposing principles to effect the potential difference or voltage, or bringing the many "I's" into direct "confrontation" (struggle with yourself). But before that, man must realize his nothingness, the point, zero-dimension. This is what is called the "Dark Night of the Soul".

G was trying to enable man to reach "god" through 'logical' continuation of a priori principles, or Numbers. That three and seven are of 'prime' importance in his teachings, isn't surprising in the least. Octaves(7-folded-ness) are intimately entwined with the Trinity, an outgrowth of the same.

 

[John G]

It's always a good thing to put all kinds of related information together. It does sound a bit complex to me! I guess I need to do more research on this matter to have a better understanding. Thanks for sharing!

A good start is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Way_Enneagram
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality

The more complex stuff is here:

http://tap3x.net/EMBTI/emandala.html
http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/IFAEinstein.html

 

[Bobo08]

If you suggest another way for me to do the Work, please do so. I'm open for all kind of options.

Hi Oxajil,

Since you have read a lot of G.'s work. you may know that as machines, we cannot Do anything and that the development of Knowledge and Being should go together. So the first thing to do in the Work should be to clean up one's machine. And in our cultured society, most of that cleaning involves working on the psychological and emotional side. I have the feeling that you are diving too much on the intellectual side of it without adequate emotional development. So perhaps, you should shift gear a bit and pick up the psychology books recommended on this forum (that is, if you haven't read those)? I think those are more important for you at the moment.

 

[John G]

Slightly 'switching gears', I would like to bring up G's assertion that numbers/mathematics are the only objective language. Numbers contain an 'essence', a quality, which is 'well' beyond the one-dimensional representation of quantity that we usually associate with numbers. This is, in my opinion, what he was getting at with his "Laws of World Creation and World Maintenance". He was attempting to awaken man to the quality of numbers, the 'divinity' of numbers.

Man number 4 is one who has a real "I". He has added a fourth 'point', non-tangent with the, in the ideal case, plane formed of his three centers (points) in equilateral formation. He has gone from a 'surface/plane' to a 'volume/space': becoming real, or having subsistence/substance. '3 dimensional space'

Before a "man" can realize this, he must first become 3, that is, following the basic geometric analogy, become 2 dimensional. But before that, man must first become 2 (points), a line/one-dimensional, binary, opposing principles to effect the potential difference or voltage, or bringing the many "I's" into direct "confrontation" (struggle with yourself). But before that, man must realize his nothingness, the point, zero-dimension. This is what is called the "Dark Night of the Soul".

G was trying to enable man to reach "god" through 'logical' continuation of a priori principles, or Numbers. That three and seven are of 'prime' importance in his teachings, isn't surprising in the least. Octaves(7-folded-ness) are intimately entwined with the Trinity, an outgrowth of the same.

The 4th is very much a Jungian missing 4th both in the 1-2-3-4 Adam-Eve-Christ-Mary sense and in the 3-6-9 Center/Trinity 2D to 3D sense. Geometrically this can be pictured as a 2-dim hexagon for the 1-4-2-8-5-7 law of 7 with two 3-6-9 law of 3 triangles, one above and one below the plane of the law of 7. This forms the 3-dim cuboctahedron. You can actually plot the cuboctahedron using Jungian thinking and feeling functions for the the thinking and feeling centers and Jungian Sensing and Intuition for the instinctive center.

 

[RflctnOfU]

The 4th is very much a Jungian missing 4th both in the 1-2-3-4 Adam-Eve-Christ-Mary sense and in the 3-6-9 Center/Trinity 2D to 3D sense. Geometrically this can be pictured as a 2-dim hexagon for the 1-4-2-8-5-7 law of 7 with two 3-6-9 law of 3 triangles, one above and one below the plane of the law of 7. This forms the 3-dim cuboctahedron. You can actually plot the cuboctahedron using Jungian thinking and feeling functions for the the thinking and feeling centers and Jungian Sensing and Intuition for the instinctive center.

Can you expand upon this a little?

Kris

 

[mamadrama]

This forms the 3-dim cuboctahedron.

Here is an image of a cuboctahedron:

 

[Stevie Argyl]

Oxajil


I see you did move from the 1931 version of BTs to the 1950 version :)

 

[heinrich]

EVOLUTION, TIME, GOOD AND EVIL

dear forum, there is something which bugs me: it is the purpose of the universe and its compatibility with time.

i have read, in part, a book by allen kardec on spiritism, and i found it compatible with the statements of the cass. but both do not satisfy me because of logical inconsistencies.

indeed, in the cass, the goal of 6th density is to merge with 7th density and again be at home after a lot of incarnations. this is also the aim of the spirits created by the source, each with imperfections that they are supposed to overcome in multiple incarnations until they are perfect and can again merge with god/source.

however, since all spirits are said to arise out of source/god, each one with its own character, i wonder why god does not produce perfect spirits right away from the beginning. and if it takes pleasure in creating unperfect = evil spirits, then such a god must, to achieve balance, include as many defects as he has qualities. so, the overall moral quality of god is good + bad = zero, or

source = 1+ (-1) = 0​

we also see its evil side when creating life which must kill other life for its own subsistance and renders life full of fear of having to defend oneself to preserve one’s own life. this scheme of things is more devilish than angelic.

this also explains that life serves to generate the fear which feeds the parasites above us in the food chain. here we are close to castaneda..... this also reveals the source of evil: the evil is in god/source, and this is why jesus told us to pray to not be seduced by temptation and be preserved from evil, the evil side of god/source. this is ridiculous.

to the question of “why is there evil ?”, my answer is “god itself is both good AND evil”. therefore, paradise and hell are not separate entities, but both reside in god and its creation. being good therefore becomes our own duty to achieve, and it implies to reject half of creation. so what is the purpose of creation if we have to reject half of it?? to me, this explains why living is ALWAYS associated with suffering, and buddah got it better right than jesus...

moreover, the fact that spirits can return to god only when they have become perfect also implies that god evolves, and changes with time so that he cannot be eternal, because only things which do not change could be eternal.

i assume that everyone will make it to 6th, and reintegrate the one/source. what happens then with the one? does it feel satisfied to have reintegrated all the initially imperfect souls it has fathered? has it become more good than it was initially? does it go to sleep? does it wake up with the next big bang, ad infinitum? this must be a boring experience... does it die? does the universe end? does it dissolve into nothingness, has it ever been?

evolution of souls through reincarnation implies a finite time scale, and requires an evolving universe. so, evolution is not compatible with an infinite universe, because evolution implies a goal and a time to reach it. but the affirmation of the cass that time does not exist implies the absence of any evolution. this is why fred hoyle invented the steady state universe...

the assumed perfection of the one/the source, implies no possible evolution for it, so it must be immuable. since it creates and seems to enjoy it, its attributed infinity, ∞, can only be believed if his net effect is inexistent, zero, 0. we therefore have the ultimate equation

∞ = 0​

which i am sure ark would endorse as a symbol of our vain quest. in any case, this equation just shows that infinity and zero are two mental concepts which have no physical correspondance.

therefore, is all that we experience imaginary and an illusion?. we come to the hindou concept of maya. and this is unacceptable to me because the suffering is real.

is suffering unavoidable??? in the symbolic existence of jesus, we see that he did what the father wanted, did not question it, and suffered. are we supposed to follow his example, which is to suffer as much as he did during his incarnation ??

i must be wrong. so, does someone have a better explanation for the REAL mess we are in since our inception??? laura??

i believe the cathars tought the same; they were not far from where the cass team now lives...

 

[heinrich]

EVOLUTION, TIME, GOOD AND EVIL

dear forum, there is something which bugs me: it is the purpose of the universe and its compatibility with time.

i have read, in part, a book by allen kardec on spiritism, and i found it compatible with the statements of the cass. but both do not satisfy me because of logical inconsistencies.

indeed, in the cass, the goal of 6th density is to merge with 7th density and again be at home after a lot of incarnations. this is also the aim of the spirits created by the source, each with imperfections that they are supposed to overcome in multiple incarnations until they are perfect and can again merge with god/source.

however, since all spirits are said to arise out of source/god, each one with its own character, i wonder why god does not produce perfect spirits right away from the beginning. and if it takes pleasure in creating unperfect = evil spirits, then such a god must, to achieve balance, include as many defects as he has qualities. so, the overall moral quality of god is good + bad = zero, or

source = 1+ (-1) = 0​

we also see its evil side when creating life which must kill other life for its own subsistance and renders life full of fear of having to defend oneself to preserve one’s own life. this scheme of things is more devilish than angelic.

this also explains that life serves to generate the fear which feeds the parasites above us in the food chain. here we are close to castaneda..... this also reveals the source of evil: the evil is in god/source, and this is why jesus told us to pray to not be seduced by temptation and be preserved from evil, the evil side of god/source. this is ridiculous.

to the question of “why is there evil ?”, my answer is “god itself is both good AND evil”. therefore, paradise and hell are not separate entities, but both reside in god and its creation. being good therefore becomes our own duty to achieve, and it implies to reject half of creation. so what is the purpose of creation if we have to reject half of it?? to me, this explains why living is ALWAYS associated with suffering, and buddah got it better right than jesus...

moreover, the fact that spirits can return to god only when they have become perfect also implies that god evolves, and changes with time so that he cannot be eternal, because only things which do not change could be eternal.

i assume that everyone will make it to 6th, and reintegrate the one/source. what happens then with the one? does it feel satisfied to have reintegrated all the initially imperfect souls it has fathered? has it become more good than it was initially? does it go to sleep? does it wake up with the next big bang, ad infinitum? this must be a boring experience... does it die? does the universe end? does it dissolve into nothingness, has it ever been?

evolution of souls through reincarnation implies a finite time scale, and requires an evolving universe. so, evolution is not compatible with an infinite universe, because evolution implies a goal and a time to reach it. but the affirmation of the cass that time does not exist implies the absence of any evolution. this is why fred hoyle invented the steady state universe...

the assumed perfection of the one/the source, implies no possible evolution for it, so it must be immuable. since it creates and seems to enjoy it, its attributed infinity, ∞, can only be believed if his net effect is inexistent, zero, 0. we therefore have the ultimate equation

∞ = 0​

which i am sure ark would endorse as a symbol of our vain quest. in any case, this equation just shows that infinity and zero are two mental concepts which have no physical correspondance.

therefore, is all that we experience imaginary and an illusion?. we come to the hindou concept of maya. and this is unacceptable to me because the suffering is real.

is suffering unavoidable??? in the symbolic existence of jesus, we see that he did what the father wanted, did not question it, and suffered. are we supposed to follow his example, which is to suffer as much as he did during his incarnation ??

i must be wrong. so, does someone have a better explanation for the REAL mess we are in since our inception??? laura??

i believe the cathars tought the same; they were not far from where the cass team now lives...

i reply to claus. du bist schnell wie der blitz, schon gelesen???

 

[John G]

EVOLUTION, TIME, GOOD AND EVIL

dear forum, there is something which bugs me: it is the purpose of the universe and its compatibility with time.

i have read, in part, a book by allen kardec on spiritism, and i found it compatible with the statements of the cass. but both do not satisfy me because of logical inconsistencies.

indeed, in the cass, the goal of 6th density is to merge with 7th density and again be at home after a lot of incarnations. this is also the aim of the spirits created by the source, each with imperfections that they are supposed to overcome in multiple incarnations until they are perfect and can again merge with god/source.

however, since all spirits are said to arise out of source/god, each one with its own character, i wonder why god does not produce perfect spirits right away from the beginning. and if it takes pleasure in creating unperfect = evil spirits, then such a god must, to achieve balance, include as many defects as he has qualities. so, the overall moral quality of god is good + bad = zero, or

source = 1+ (-1) = 0​

we also see its evil side when creating life which must kill other life for its own subsistance and renders life full of fear of having to defend oneself to preserve one’s own life. this scheme of things is more devilish than angelic.

this also explains that life serves to generate the fear which feeds the parasites above us in the food chain. here we are close to castaneda..... this also reveals the source of evil: the evil is in god/source, and this is why jesus told us to pray to not be seduced by temptation and be preserved from evil, the evil side of god/source. this is ridiculous.

to the question of “why is there evil ?”, my answer is “god itself is both good AND evil”. therefore, paradise and hell are not separate entities, but both reside in god and its creation. being good therefore becomes our own duty to achieve, and it implies to reject half of creation. so what is the purpose of creation if we have to reject half of it?? to me, this explains why living is ALWAYS associated with suffering, and buddah got it better right than jesus...

moreover, the fact that spirits can return to god only when they have become perfect also implies that god evolves, and changes with time so that he cannot be eternal, because only things which do not change could be eternal.

i assume that everyone will make it to 6th, and reintegrate the one/source. what happens then with the one? does it feel satisfied to have reintegrated all the initially imperfect souls it has fathered? has it become more good than it was initially? does it go to sleep? does it wake up with the next big bang, ad infinitum? this must be a boring experience... does it die? does the universe end? does it dissolve into nothingness, has it ever been?

evolution of souls through reincarnation implies a finite time scale, and requires an evolving universe. so, evolution is not compatible with an infinite universe, because evolution implies a goal and a time to reach it. but the affirmation of the cass that time does not exist implies the absence of any evolution. this is why fred hoyle invented the steady state universe...

the assumed perfection of the one/the source, implies no possible evolution for it, so it must be immuable. since it creates and seems to enjoy it, its attributed infinity, ∞, can only be believed if his net effect is inexistent, zero, 0. we therefore have the ultimate equation

∞ = 0​

which i am sure ark would endorse as a symbol of our vain quest. in any case, this equation just shows that infinity and zero are two mental concepts which have no physical correspondance.

therefore, is all that we experience imaginary and an illusion?. we come to the hindou concept of maya. and this is unacceptable to me because the suffering is real.

is suffering unavoidable??? in the symbolic existence of jesus, we see that he did what the father wanted, did not question it, and suffered. are we supposed to follow his example, which is to suffer as much as he did during his incarnation ??

i must be wrong. so, does someone have a better explanation for the REAL mess we are in since our inception??? laura??

i believe the cathars tought the same; they were not far from where the cass team now lives...

Bernardo Kastrup who has been discussed on Mind Matters describes the big bang and what we we would call emanating from 7th to the lower densities as like a multiple personality disorder. That next state for B theory of time, brane, relativity, etc. reasons is likely a complete universe state through time so would include densities 1 through 6. Also in the B theory of time, all states exist eternally. You just always keep moving from one eternal universe state to another.

The information of the states is real even if you don't always perceive it perfectly. Why would God leave 7th density only to return again eventually? I personally just think of it as something he can do so he does. His multiple personalities then have the challenge of learning how to get back. Suffering is part of learning and you kind of do as much of it as you need.

 

[axj]

I think there is a good chance that there is a 'higher level of existence' and that there may be other "Absolutes"/Creators besides ours.

What Gurdjieff described (and what Oxajil analyzed in this thread) implies that our Absolute was faced with a force (a sort of "time") that diminished the original Sun-Absolute, which led to the creation of our multiverse as a necessity. This also implies that our Creator/Absolute was faced with something beyond his control, this force of "time".

There is also a clue towards a 'higher level of existence' that is "above" our Creator/Absolute in what according to Theun Mares the Toltec seers have seen about our Creator. Namely, that our Creator/Absolute appears not to be alone. One possible implication of this is again that there are other Creators/Absolutes besides ours.

The two books I am referencing are:

Gurdjieff - "Beelzebulb's Tales To His Grandson"
Theun Mares - "Cry of the Eagle"

This is of course a topic that is close to what is unknowable to us as 3D humans. Though maybe not completely.