The mystery that is my emotional center
- Thread starter Dracount
- Start date
Phill4
The Living Force
Hi Dracount, as far as the centers go, I just wanna add that , The centers and their effects are always present in one way or another at all times.
Sometimes your when your emotions reach a peak is when you notice them more, too angry or too sad or too happy.
But the fact is the are always in constant operation, Say for instance a good example , your heart is an involuntary moving living organ that requires energy yet it is only when you stop and focus that you actually feel it and that is just the heartbeat, not its whole function. So it does require inner work to make a full realization of the centers and their functions, study and practice.
To achieve an emotional state you have to understand the process that involves an emotion in depth, and the emotions there are, their reason of being, their purpose their energy..
The centers in any form of definition, require energy, this energy allows the center to work, although every center requires a different type of energy. It's like other members have said, there is literature that will point out to the 4th way.
Sometimes your when your emotions reach a peak is when you notice them more, too angry or too sad or too happy.
But the fact is the are always in constant operation, Say for instance a good example , your heart is an involuntary moving living organ that requires energy yet it is only when you stop and focus that you actually feel it and that is just the heartbeat, not its whole function. So it does require inner work to make a full realization of the centers and their functions, study and practice.
To achieve an emotional state you have to understand the process that involves an emotion in depth, and the emotions there are, their reason of being, their purpose their energy..
The centers in any form of definition, require energy, this energy allows the center to work, although every center requires a different type of energy. It's like other members have said, there is literature that will point out to the 4th way.
Alada
The Living Force
Menna said:
If you’re looking for 'exercises’ I’d second Menna’s suggestion and begin learning and practicing EE when you can. I might have described my own inner landscape quite similarly, considering myself as intellectually centered and not at all in touch with my emotions – to the point that it scared my to consider the possibility that they weren’t there at all!
EE, together with networking here over time certainly helped, to the point now that I would consider myself as ‘type 2’ – mainly emotionally centered. Not that it is something new and I have suddenly become type 2 through EE and networking, but rather that it was always so, but the emotions were repressed to the point of almost not being there.
EE can help ‘loosen things up’ so to say. Networking and learning more about what a full emotional range can be, can help us to see where we might have gaps, where we are unconsciously repressing emotions and/or diverting the energy. The more we learn about ourselves and how the machine is set up, the more we begin to see where the wiring might be wrong. In some people the connection with emotional centre is poor and needs adjusting for (either too sensitive or unresponsive), in some the connection is not there and needs to be reestablished, in a very few it is not there at all, even in potential.
The more we learn the better we understand what type we are and what to do about it, but I think it’s more appropriate to see it as a gradually process rather than aiming to do one or two things that will fix it. Having said that, I don’t think there’s any harm in experimenting with watching films, or listening to music or taking yourself off to some place special or whatever it is to study what is/isn’t there. There process of self observation might be a helpful contribution toward reestablishing a better connection in itself – especially if you network and discuss the results which can speed up the process no end.
Hi Alada,
I will read up on EE. When you say networking do you mean begin threads on the forum? Or is there some formal network that works together?
I have also read about mirroring which takes place here but I don't understand what that is either. Are they private messages or also on the forum?
How could I approach or get in contact with someone who is willing to work with me?
Regarding working with others even here, how do you know if the person knows what they are taking about?
The sticky note on the intro forum I mentioned you should be wary of advice given here.
I will read up on EE. When you say networking do you mean begin threads on the forum? Or is there some formal network that works together?
I have also read about mirroring which takes place here but I don't understand what that is either. Are they private messages or also on the forum?
How could I approach or get in contact with someone who is willing to work with me?
Regarding working with others even here, how do you know if the person knows what they are taking about?
The sticky note on the intro forum I mentioned you should be wary of advice given here.
Alada
The Living Force
Dracount said:
Sure, start new threads or find one already be discussing a theme that's on your mind and add to that.
[quote author=Dracount]
I have also read about mirroring which takes place here but I don't understand what that is either. Are they private messages or also on the forum?[/quote]
It can be taken as others reflecting images of ourselves back to us. It's always very hard, sometimes impossible to accurately see ourselves as we are, to get a better reading and so be able to make adjustments, the input or 'mirrors' from others can help balance out our own reading errors.
There's an entry for Mirror in the glossary HERE
[quote author=Dracount]
How could I approach or get in contact with someone who is willing to work with me?[/quote]
Generally the best place is right here on the forum, there's more opportunity then to receive a wide variety of feedback that way, and better to have a discussion among many where all can add their input, and all is open and visible - which helps with your two questions below.
[quote author=Dracount]
Regarding working with others even here, how do you know if the person knows what they are taking about?[/quote]
Well nobody here is going to claim to know everything, or be able to remember everything all the time, but with many people offering their input it's possible to build up a far better picture. Where someone is off track according to the understanding of others reading a thread, you can be sure it will be pointed out and discussed.
[quote author=Dracount]
The sticky note on the intro forum I mentioned you should be wary of advice given here.
[/quote]
If it's the section I think you mean (Important notice to all) then there is a specific context to that if you go back and original read the thread it came from. But it's always better to ask for feedback where there is any doubt as the post says, if in doubt - network!
Felipe4 said:
Hi Felipe4,
Can you give an example if this? How do you come to understand an emotion? Is this type of work specific to each emotion and they must be studied individually or its it general principles of how all emotions work? It appears that the study of the energies would apply to all emotions equally from what you said (vs the emotion itself)
I am currently reading meetings with remarkable men but there is so much to read it's overwhelming.
Alada
The Living Force
Dracount said:
Without wishing to add to that feeling (interesting that one definition of ‘overwhelmed’ is to "have a strong emotional effect on" no? Where did that come from?), I’m going to recommend another book to add to that one!
The best primer as an introduction to the ideas and system taught by Gurdjieff is ‘In Search of the Miraculous’ by P. D. Ouspensky. You’ll find many of your initial questions will be answered there, and in some detail. ‘Meetings’ is largely allegorical, giving hints and examples which can be interpreted one way or another according to the readers understanding of the system I think.
It would be a helpful read in order to get familiar with Gurdjieff’s system and some of the language and terminology often used here. In order to make the most of many discussions here it will be essential to understand the terminology used.
Meanwhile, there’s always the Cassiopaea Glossary for looking up terms, and it’s also helpful on many levels when we try to answer questions for ourselves as best we can.
Dracount said:
Well, to understand first one has to know, then learn how to apply that knowledge. The fruit of that will be better understanding.
Generally we take emotions for granted, they happen (or not), but we have little or no knowledge of the process. To get there we have to observe, to study, discuss what we find. In order to understand an emotion first we have to learn how discern its genesis, to examine what caused it to arise. Was it something external, something internal, both? What part of us did the emotion come from, was it more an instant reaction, or a deeper ‘heartfelt’ thing, or is it more in the mind?
When you discern where the root of an emotion is, it becomes possible then to drill down deeper into ever greater detail about what is happening. Gradually we can learn how to observe and account for our emotions, not in order to not have them, but in order to be more conscious and aware of them. To learn when emotions are running the show and how to better get a grip on them. Knowledge Protects!
I read ISOM when I first heard of Gurdjieff but while I understood the just of it - the overall purpose of the work, there was too much spoken about that I was not able to understand at all. In fact much of what I have been working on lately is to try work out what all the cryptic allegories are really talking about. There is very little out there I have come across so I'm sort of piecing together the puzzle together with BT. Much of it is guessing based on my experiences and try trying to see what I can find on the internet and see if someone else has spoken about some of these things and how well that then ties back into the allegories. But its always a bit of a stab in the dark.
Regarding what is behind the emotions: mans more basic and primitive drives and desires - are these considered part of the emotions and emotional center or are they separate? I have been trying to deal with individual emotions but they seem to keep going deeper and deeper and I don't think they should be worked on in the same way?
Regarding what is behind the emotions: mans more basic and primitive drives and desires - are these considered part of the emotions and emotional center or are they separate? I have been trying to deal with individual emotions but they seem to keep going deeper and deeper and I don't think they should be worked on in the same way?
obyvatel
The Living Force
Dracount said:
My personal experience from reading a lot of 4th Way material is that while they are a great source for a lot of stuff, they are not the best starting point to work specifically on understanding the physical (affective) and mental (feeling function) components of emotion.
[quote author=Dracount]
Regarding what is behind the emotions: mans more basic and primitive drives and desires - are these considered part of the emotions and emotional center or are they separate? I have been trying to deal with individual emotions but they seem to keep going deeper and deeper and I don't think they should be worked on in the same way?
[/quote]
You can think more along the lines of what caused the emotion to arise. Was it something which is clearly an external event - like you are driving along in a happy mood when somebody cuts in front of you suddenly and you feel angry. Or certain people make you feel anxious even though you cannot point your finger at anything they specifically did - in which case the cause would likely be something inside of you.
If you bring up specific examples, then it may be easier to discuss.
As an example that happened in my office yesterday: we had our 1st quarter strategy session given by the boss and at the end he said he promoted 2 people in the company. These 2 completely deserved this however I instantly felt at first mention "well what about me". Practically it is not even applicable to me but I certainly has a strong emotional feeling (jealousy) when this happened.
Now as I am fond of these 2 guys and due to the above I was very happy for them and after a short reflection I had no hint of jealousy left in me against my colleagues.
However I do have a feeling that remains -something like "well maybe I could get one or maybe I should try change some things about my work to get one". This I see as the more subtle form of jealousy. Or maybe my desire for honour and respect. Or possibly my internal survival instinct: I was not the fittest (despite the fact it was not applicable to me).
The initial jealousy I felt was easily picked up -it was incredibly strong and I am actively working on this type of awareness. I reasoned that this does not apply to me and as the type of person I am striving to be I must be happy for my friends.
The more subtle levels such as a feeling now "I need a promotion" still sits in me. The fact my current position does not allow for this at the moment does nor seem to get rid of that feeling as was the case with the initial jealousy.
The honour aspect I suspect is driving my feelings. So now I'm not sure if my primary focus should be on my desire for honour? I feel there might be steps in between.
The more I think about them the more I (hopefully correctly) understand what's going on inside.
But where and how should I approach this? I need to think on this more but is there 4th way teachings about this kind of stuff?
Now as I am fond of these 2 guys and due to the above I was very happy for them and after a short reflection I had no hint of jealousy left in me against my colleagues.
However I do have a feeling that remains -something like "well maybe I could get one or maybe I should try change some things about my work to get one". This I see as the more subtle form of jealousy. Or maybe my desire for honour and respect. Or possibly my internal survival instinct: I was not the fittest (despite the fact it was not applicable to me).
The initial jealousy I felt was easily picked up -it was incredibly strong and I am actively working on this type of awareness. I reasoned that this does not apply to me and as the type of person I am striving to be I must be happy for my friends.
The more subtle levels such as a feeling now "I need a promotion" still sits in me. The fact my current position does not allow for this at the moment does nor seem to get rid of that feeling as was the case with the initial jealousy.
The honour aspect I suspect is driving my feelings. So now I'm not sure if my primary focus should be on my desire for honour? I feel there might be steps in between.
The more I think about them the more I (hopefully correctly) understand what's going on inside.
But where and how should I approach this? I need to think on this more but is there 4th way teachings about this kind of stuff?
obyvatel
The Living Force
Dracount said:
A normal reaction. It happens. I have been through this many times in my life - and so have many others I know of who were aware and brave enough to share their real feelings. So far there is nothing to "fix" as far as I can see.
[quote author=Dracount]
Now as I am fond of these 2 guys and due to the above I was very happy for them and after a short reflection I had no hint of jealousy left in me against my colleagues.
[/quote]
A completely rational response to reality. If you harbored strong resentment against your colleagues and it affected your behavior towards them going forward, then there would be something to work on. Nothing to fix here as far as I can see.
[quote author=Dracount]
However I do have a feeling that remains -something like "well maybe I could get one or maybe I should try change some things about my work to get one". This I see as the more subtle form of jealousy. Or maybe my desire for honour and respect. Or possibly my internal survival instinct: I was not the fittest (despite the fact it was not applicable to me).
[/quote]
I do not think this is jealousy. There is nothing wrong in wanting a promotion and working for it. The promotion of your colleagues was an event that brought this desire to your awareness. Nothing to fix here as far as I can see.
[quote author=Dracount]
The initial jealousy I felt was easily picked up -it was incredibly strong and I am actively working on this type of awareness. I reasoned that this does not apply to me and as the type of person I am striving to be I must be happy for my friends.
[/quote]
Emotions do not work that way. They are somewhat like forces of nature that we cannot control - that is we cannot prevent them from arising. Attempting to do that leads to problems. What we can do is be aware of them, evaluate them in the context of the situation (which includes networking about it) and then control our behavior.
In this situation you have done all that. You were aware of your initial reaction of jealousy, then were happy for your colleagues. You could be using this event as a motivation to do your part that increases your chances for promotion, if there is such a possibility in your current work environment. You could even go to your supervisor and ask him/her what could you be doing more or better that would make you a possible candidate for promotion.
[quote author=Dracount]
The more subtle levels such as a feeling now "I need a promotion" still sits in me. The fact my current position does not allow for this at the moment does nor seem to get rid of that feeling as was the case with the initial jealousy.
The honour aspect I suspect is driving my feelings. So now I'm not sure if my primary focus should be on my desire for honour? I feel there might be steps in between.
[/quote]
Desire for recognition and validation is a normal part of being human. Denying or repressing the need leads to a host of issues that affect the person concerned and others around him at work or home.
A rational approach would be to balance this desire with the needs of others/ environment in the specific context - like it is hopefully shown in the preceding discussion in the example.
Overall, consider the image that you have of how a "perfect" person would look like. If that image is unrealistic, trying to follow that image would only lead you to needless suffering and loss of energy better utilized otherwise. At least that is the way I see it.
Fwiw
From what I have read the goal would be not to be controlled (or define my behavior) by these external (or internal) cues. Is this what makes me mechanical?
The ideal I currently am leaning towards would be to only be lead or make decisions purely from my "will". Not to pursue a promotion based on their promotion would, I feel to be led by these internal reactions is the goal of the 4th way.
However the rest of my life has probably been based on the same internal or external cues without realising it.
Would I be in my current job, where I currently live, have the friends I do etc...
If I do pursue this it may be perpetuating this cycle of reacting to these cues.
Then again what else should I do? What should I be basing my decisions on? Self development? Where would that take me? Maybe just fighting these internal cues...
The ideal I currently am leaning towards would be to only be lead or make decisions purely from my "will". Not to pursue a promotion based on their promotion would, I feel to be led by these internal reactions is the goal of the 4th way.
However the rest of my life has probably been based on the same internal or external cues without realising it.
Would I be in my current job, where I currently live, have the friends I do etc...
If I do pursue this it may be perpetuating this cycle of reacting to these cues.
Then again what else should I do? What should I be basing my decisions on? Self development? Where would that take me? Maybe just fighting these internal cues...
obyvatel
The Living Force
Dracount said:
I think that goals are better personalized and made specific. It is not black and white. We do not want to be like a dry leaf which is at the complete mercy of how winds are blowing. At the same time, we do not want to act like imperturbable rocks which show little reaction to external influences. So one can be "mechanical" in different ways.
[quote author=Dracount]
The ideal I currently am leaning towards would be to only be lead or make decisions purely from my "will". Not to pursue a promotion based on their promotion would, I feel to be led by these internal reactions is the goal of the 4th way.
[/quote]
My point, which may not have come across the way I intended it, was that there is nothing wrong in wanting a promotion. Whether to act on that desire depends on multiple factors which are related to the specific context. Seeing others get promoted can spark the interest. Then, one can evaluate - is it possible based on my current situation at the workplace? Or if it happens, do I really want to spend the time and energy to deal with the extra responsibility that comes with it? What would that mean for my family or my personal interests?
Of course you should not pursue a promotion based only on the fact that others have been promoted. That would be like a leaf blowing in the wind.
[quote author=Dracount]
Then again what else should I do? What should I be basing my decisions on? Self development? Where would that take me? Maybe just fighting these internal cues...
[/quote]
Self development is a common goal - but what does that specifically mean for you at this time? Our definitions of self development and the reasons why we think we want to develop changes with time - or so has been my experience.
You mentioned you want to be led " purely by your own will". What is this "will"? Is it really your own? Or is it, like almost all of us, a mixture of stuff you have collected from various sources, consciously or unconsciously?
Per my understanding, long before we can talk about a real will (which is a property of an entity called "Real I" in 4th way terms), we must learn and accept how we are at present. Emotional honesty is very important here and the reason I keep bringing this up is because I think this is where most "self development" methods, 4th Way included, tend to go astray in practice. We try to become "super men or super women" repressing authentic parts of ourselves.
I may wish to be someone who should feel only happiness when my colleagues get promoted, and may choose to act "as if" I was already that person in terms of my external behavior, but I need to acknowledge my feelings as they are in the present, and hopefully have some trusted people with whom I can share that. I think this far we can more or less agree?
The next part is more tricky. You mentioned "fighting the internal cues". There is an ideal image and there is a part of me that does not match up to that image. These two are brought into conflict. This conflict is essential for development, but it does not guarantee it. I do not wish for the type of development which is a result of "killing " all those parts of myself which do not at present match with a composite imagined idealized image of what I think I would like to be. I would rather understand these parts that I do not like and then find an appropriate place for them where they can serve a rational and adaptive purpose. If I have a desire for honor or respect, I would accept them and would wish that they provide me with the energy ( desires supply energy) to fuel my actions in a situation that would benefit others and myself. I would not go down the path of saying "this desire for honor and respect is an aberration that should never drive my actions".
Does that make sense?
Thanks for the response, there is a lot in there to think about.
I think this is something I am slowly grappling with. Is mechanicalness not that we have specific innate reactions? Can they change? Can we develop ourselves so that our natural inner drives are not self interest? Is such a thing possible? Perhaps not. In that case we can't get away from these inner selfish drives but they must then be used in the best and most constructive way. Rather than being a "leaf in the wind"
[quote author=obyvatel]
Self development is a common goal - but what does that specifically mean for you at this time? Our definitions of self development and the reasons why we think we want to develop changes with time - or so has been my experience.
[/quote]
Currently I think it's the improvement of my self. A better me, both for myself and my relationships.
I agree it may change over time, I'm not sure how and what it will become though.
[quote author=obyvatel]
You mentioned you want to be led " purely by your own will". What is this "will"? Is it really your own? Or is it, like almost all of us, a mixture of stuff you have collected from various sources, consciously or unconsciously?
[/quote]
At this point I have no idea. If I do have one, which I am yet to experience, feel or understand. I imagine it to be some sort of compass. Although this brings me back to the realization is that currently it is my self interest.
[quote author=obyvatel]
I would rather understand these parts that I do not like and then find an appropriate place for them where they can serve a rational and adaptive purpose. If I have a desire for honor or respect, I would accept them and would wish that they provide me with the energy ( desires supply energy) to fuel my actions in a situation that would benefit others and myself. I would not go down the path of saying "this desire for honor and respect is an aberration that should never drive my actions".
Does that make sense?
[/quote]
I would really like to hear more about finding an appropriate place for these. Can you give some examples of how this would work: Do you redirect what you feeling toward another situation? What happens to the situation the feeling came from?
This reminds me of something I read about BT in his introduction: the dog catcher in Tiflis nets the dog and places him in a cage in a way it doesn't realize how it got there.
Then it gets turned into profitable soap... Which I'm not sure what that means.
Thank you yes this is making allot of sense.
obyvatel said:
I think this is something I am slowly grappling with. Is mechanicalness not that we have specific innate reactions? Can they change? Can we develop ourselves so that our natural inner drives are not self interest? Is such a thing possible? Perhaps not. In that case we can't get away from these inner selfish drives but they must then be used in the best and most constructive way. Rather than being a "leaf in the wind"
[quote author=obyvatel]
Self development is a common goal - but what does that specifically mean for you at this time? Our definitions of self development and the reasons why we think we want to develop changes with time - or so has been my experience.
[/quote]
Currently I think it's the improvement of my self. A better me, both for myself and my relationships.
I agree it may change over time, I'm not sure how and what it will become though.
[quote author=obyvatel]
You mentioned you want to be led " purely by your own will". What is this "will"? Is it really your own? Or is it, like almost all of us, a mixture of stuff you have collected from various sources, consciously or unconsciously?
[/quote]
At this point I have no idea. If I do have one, which I am yet to experience, feel or understand. I imagine it to be some sort of compass. Although this brings me back to the realization is that currently it is my self interest.
[quote author=obyvatel]
I would rather understand these parts that I do not like and then find an appropriate place for them where they can serve a rational and adaptive purpose. If I have a desire for honor or respect, I would accept them and would wish that they provide me with the energy ( desires supply energy) to fuel my actions in a situation that would benefit others and myself. I would not go down the path of saying "this desire for honor and respect is an aberration that should never drive my actions".
Does that make sense?
[/quote]
I would really like to hear more about finding an appropriate place for these. Can you give some examples of how this would work: Do you redirect what you feeling toward another situation? What happens to the situation the feeling came from?
This reminds me of something I read about BT in his introduction: the dog catcher in Tiflis nets the dog and places him in a cage in a way it doesn't realize how it got there.
Then it gets turned into profitable soap... Which I'm not sure what that means.
Thank you yes this is making allot of sense.
obyvatel
The Living Force
Dracount said:
I would really like to hear more about finding an appropriate place for these. Can you give some examples of how this would work: Do you redirect what you feeling toward another situation? What happens to the situation the feeling came from?
[/quote]
First, consider the case where the desire for recognition is applied to the situation in which it arose. Suppose I want to be respected and recognized at my workplace. To go about it, I need to know what kind of skills and qualities are valued by the business. Then I work towards developing those skills and qualities using the energy supplied by my desire to be recognized. This is a simple situation where there is no internal conflict. Whether I get recognized or not is not completely in my control - but I put in the effort and increase my chances of getting what I want.
Now suppose what is desired by the workplace is not in line with my personal values. I do what I do for a living because it pays the bills and it is what I am trained to do. I wish for recognition but am not prepared to pay the price for it. To paraphrase an example from Epictetus, the Roman Stoic, if I wish to be invited to a banquet of a famous person, I must pay the price for it in the form of pleasing the host and being in his good books. If I do not please him, I will not be invited. I lose the privilege of the banquet but I save the energy and effort I would need to make to please the host. Now, I can use what I saved for something else - in other words, I can redirect the effort towards something I want more.
Suppose I decide I still wish recognition but I would rather seek it from those whose values are more in line with mine. Take the example of this forum or SOTT or EE. I could find out what is it that I need to do to be recognized within this community. If I am a news buff and have the mentality of a detective piecing together clues from various sources, then I could start working on SOTT and get recognized as a SOTT editor. If I like meditation and wish to work directly with people, helping them with their issues, I could learn to do EE, boost up my knowledge of the human body and try to qualify as a EE teacher and start classes. If I like the concepts of the Work, psychology, diet and health, history etc I could work on the forum and associated projects and get recognized there.
Now consider the case where I have a desire for recognition from others and also an ideal where I would like to be free from this desire and be independent of others' opinions of myself. This is direct conflict. To resolve this conflict, a middle position is required. I may examine the desire for recognition and find that my notion of recognition is more achievement based - I must achieve X,Y,Z then I will be worthy of recognition . On the other side, there could be a significant though covert component of vanity associated with the ideal where I wish to be independent from the world and be "my own boss". I can gradually learn that it is not necessary to achieve a lot and prove myself better than others to enjoy human companionship and recognition. I could be a part of team, doing my bit and get the human connection that is fulfilling. I learn to appreciate the complexity and interconnectedness of life at a deeper level, and give up the ideal of being a separate independent entity with complete control over all aspects of my existence. I learn to function as an individual within a larger whole in a mutually supporting relationship.
Both the original desire and the ideal that was in opposition to it can thus gradually get transformed into a new reality whereby neither is destroyed. This can sometimes be a long (as in lifetime) process. As far as my current understanding goes, the progress of this process is to a large extent dependent on how effectively we can hold the conflict or tension between the opposite sides, remaining emotionally honest, recognizing both, repressing neither and not going too far to either side, thereby allowing the creative third or middle position to emerge and resolve the situation.
