The Odyssey - Manual of Secret Teachings?

[Bluestar]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

What is your take on the inherit SELFISHNESS of risking his crew and ship for his own quest?

Hmmn, maybe the crew and the ship represents aspects of the metaphor of the carriage and master where in the beginning of the quest there is no control. It is basically mechanical movement with no center of gravity. This can be backed by the wanderings and being lost at sea, osit. Where Odysseus in the beginning appears to be the master and the crew is left with results of the decisions made by a small 'I'. Does Odysseus know he is acting selfishly or does he think he is guiding his fleet home the best he knows how? Not realizing that one or more of the little 'I's' are in at the helm? The smaller 'I's' are acting in their individual favor. This is also relevant when Odysseus falls asleep on Helios' island and even after warning the remainder of his crew(little 'I's') not to partake in any of Helios' property, they do while the steward is asleep.

Odyssey, Book 12.327

And meanwhile Eurylochus began to give evil counsel to my comrades: [340] “‘Hear my words, comrades, for all your evil plight. All forms of death are hateful to wretched mortals, but to die of hunger, and so meet one's doom, is the most pitiful. Nay, come, let us drive off the best of the kine of Helios and offer sacrifice to the immortals who hold broad heaven. [345] And if we ever reach Ithaca, our native land, we will straightway build a rich temple to Helios Hyperion and put therein many goodly offerings. And if haply he be wroth at all because of his straight-horned kine, and be minded to destroy our ship, and the other gods consent, [350] rather would I lose my life once for all with a gulp at the wave, than pine slowly away in a desert isle.’“ So spoke Eurylochus, and the rest of my comrades gave assent.

I believe a good example of how one of the little 'I's' can persuade the situation to it's own means. The physical center acting on the intellectual and motor centers. The body was hungry and did not want to die of starvation. It convinced itself to do an injustice regardless of the consequence. And by using a "sacred cow/wishful thinking" program they thought that it would be enough to make promises to Helios of "many goodly offerings" that they might escape the prophetic warnings or they would rather die at the hand of a wave then to starve. Fooling themselves.

As the quest for home begins with the first realization of the need to find oneself. Throughout the Odyssey I see a sort of boosting and slapping oneself on the back so to speak. Believing oneself to be whole and just in each ones endeavors. This may be an example of the Personality with all the many 'I's' that we often think is our real self. And throughout the book we see how this smaller self gets Odysseus and his crew in trouble with the sts forces. And at each tragedy (lesson) he mourns for his loss, he suffers. This is how we learn. Though it is always through a divine intervention that he makes his way through the quest. And he makes it home without his crew or his own ship. It is through the hospitality of others that brings him to his native land (networking). And even with his return he has many obstacles to over come. He has to still clean his house.

So with the initial question asked, it seem on the outside to be selfish by our little 'I's' to be using them on the quest. We have to form a center of gravity by merging and sacrificing these many 'I's' and they don't want the merge. From what I am seeing this may seem selfish to the little 'I's' but a necessary endeavor to become man #5.

 

[mkrnhr]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

In the eventuality that Ulysses' voyage can be compared with the alchemical process, loosing the companions maybe a process of successive purification. One clue to that IMHO is when he/they goes to meet the ghosts of the dead, he encounters the ghost of Orion, yet he insists that it is only his ghost since Orion became an immortal and that he is actually living with Jove. So, somehow, part of Orion went to the dark land of the dead (where the ghosts need some blood/energy in order to recognise Ulysses and speak to him) and the other part "ascended" to heaven? Just an observation.
In any cases, sometimes the story sounds like "this is what you shouldn't do in 4D" :D

 

[Vulcan59]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Is there some importance to state ones lineage? Why was it necessary? Couldn't it be sufficient to just say "I am Ulysses"?

 

[Jakesully]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Is there some importance to state ones lineage? Why was it necessary? Couldn't it be sufficient to just say "I am Ulysses"?

Well, back then the world was composed of tribal societies and city states. To know someone means to know what tribe they come from, to know who their father/family is, because a family generally already has a reputation, whereas a lone individual is unknown, and your tribe might be at war or at odds with their tribe. The matter of extending hospitality is a given, but this is part of the decision as to whether to trust what they have to say.

 

[Graalsword]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Just catching up with the thread. I read The Odyssey in my early teens. For some time it was my favourite book, and I became a fan of Greek mythology and history(before reading Iman Wilkens' quotes in Laura's articles) and of Homer.

 

[Palinurus]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

As I'm a slow reader I didn't advance beyond page 11 yet. There I found this (it's only a minor detail, but nevertheless):

{I would like to note that the appearance of sons-in-law is puzzling considering that Lot's daughters have just been described as virgins.}

FWIW, perhaps the OT used the more archaic meaning of the term "virgin" as a woman who chooses her mate wisely, rather than a woman who has never had sex.

Another explanation might be that there were unnamed elder sisters already married and subsequently having left the household of their father while two of the younger sisters are still with him and still virgin i.e. still to be betrothed. Just a thought.

Striking how in patriarchal settings women are just property to be disposed of at will.

 

[Zadius Sky]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Is there some importance to state ones lineage? Why was it necessary? Couldn't it be sufficient to just say "I am Ulysses"?

Well, back then the world was composed of tribal societies and city states. To know someone means to know what tribe they come from, to know who their father/family is, because a family generally already has a reputation, whereas a lone individual is unknown, and your tribe might be at war or at odds with their tribe. The matter of extending hospitality is a given, but this is part of the decision as to whether to trust what they have to say.

That's likely. You may even have two guys with the same name, but with different fathers to differentiate the between. It's part of one's identity, I think. Remember that surnames weren't in use until 14th century AD.

However, what interests me at the moment about his lineage is the mention of "only sons."

In Book XVI:

And Telemachus answered, "I will tell you truly everything. There is no enmity between me and my people, nor can I complain of brothers, to whom a man may look for support however great his quarrel may be. Zeus has made us a race of only sons. Laertes was the only son of Arceisius, and Odysseus only son of Laertes. I am myself the only son of Odysseus, who left me behind him when he went away, so that I have never been of any use to him. Hence it comes that my house is in the hands of numberless marauders; for the chiefs from all the neighbouring islands, Dulichium, Same, Zacynthus, as also all the principal men of Ithaca itself, are eating up my house under the pretext of paying court to my mother, who will neither say point-blank that she will not marry, nor yet bring matters to an end, so they are making havoc of my estate, and before long will do so with myself into the bargain. The issue, however, rests with heaven. But do you, old friend Eumaeus, go at once and tell Penelope that I am safe and have returned from Pylos. Tell it to herself alone, and then come back here without letting any one else know, for there are many who are plotting mischief against me."

Now, why would Zeus made "a race of only sons?" So, the son can't look to his brothers for supports, only to his father and grandfather?

All three men have appeared together in the last chapter (Book 24): Telemachus with his father and grandfather. In this book, Laertes was overcome with grief over his son's absence until Odysseus proved to him that he is his son, regained his "spirit," and they finally "reconnected." Laertes then infused with a fresh vigour by Athena after his "son and grandson are vying with one another in the matter of valor" and he then killed Eupeithes (father of Antinous), thus ending the war.

Since Laertes is the first "only son," he may be the "beginning" or something to that sort and an important aspect in ending the "war." Just thinking out loud here.

 

[Thomas Alan]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

I found a copy of Richmond Latimore's translation at a local used bookstore. It's been a tough work schedule so am only on Book 5.

I find it a surprisingly easy read. My memory of reading it in high school was that it was rough going.
Interesting about how family lineage is so important in those times. I wonder if our own lineages, those of us in the Work, may be far more important than we realize. Perhaps a long series deeds before we were even born prepared the way to give us the opportunity.

I couldn't have been more than 5 years old when I listened as my grandfather told the story of how he left the Catholic Church and didn't raise his kids a Catholics. Oddly, young as I was I seemed to have some understanding of what he was talking about.
He came from a long line of Catholics so this was a major break. If I had been raised a Catholic the extra burden may have extinguished the spark to question what I was taught.

Perhaps, some of the "gods" were helping to make it possible for us to see the door. It would be within their power to see things developing through generations of mortal lives. Of course, it is up to us to walk through the door. (And never look back.)

Wonderful thread, many deep insights. Cassiopaea University, indeed.

Mac

 

[Laura]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

I suppose this is almost irrelevant to how this thread as progressed, I read the Odyssey as part of a college class on classical humanities more than a decade ago. Most of it has faded from memory. What I recall to this day is the daring of Odysseus to tie himself to the mast of his ship so he could hear the Sirens without being overcome and lured into the ocean. There seems very little reward for this risk-taking in a rational man. (His crew put wax in their ears and disobeyed his rantings to be freed as they sailed by the Sirens, etc). Is it merely a literary device to illustrate the contrast between a pre-ordained order given under sane conditions vs a temporary insanity? Which is quite trivial in a way. Or is there something even deeper. The most rational thing for a captain to do is also put wax in his ears as well, and let the whole crew sail by as quickly as possible with the least risk. Yet Odysseus took a calculated, but unnecessary, risk to enrich his own personal experience. I have a few thoughts on why he did this, but I'd be interested in yours (mine has nothing to do with 4D)

A response to this question from a reader of the forum who has written to me privately:

In Book X11 Circe gives Odysseus the following instructions:

"'So far so good,' said she, when I had ended my story, 'and now pay attention to what I am about to tell you- heaven itself, indeed, will recall it to your recollection. First you will come to the Sirens who enchant all who come near them. If any one unwarily draws in too close and hears the singing of the Sirens, his wife and children will never welcome him home again, for they sit in a green field and warble him to death with the sweetness of their song. There is a great heap of dead men's bones lying all around, with the flesh still rotting off them. Therefore pass these Sirens by, and stop your men's ears with wax that none of them may hear; but if you like you can listen yourself, for you may get the men to bind you as you stand upright on a cross-piece half way up the mast, and they must lash the rope's ends to the mast itself, that you may have the pleasure of listening. If you beg and pray the men to unloose you, then they must bind you faster.

So what is it exactly, that is so alluring about this song that men would die to hear it?

"'Come here,' they sang, 'renowned Ulysses, honour to the Achaean name, and listen to our two voices. No one ever sailed past us without staying to hear the enchanting sweetness of our song- and he who listens will go on his way not only charmed, but wiser, for we know all the ills that the gods laid upon the Argives and Trojans before Troy, and can tell you everything that is going to happen over the whole world.

I think that this relates to the C's admonition that "knowledge Protects" But as we have seen in the transcripts, some knowledge is impossible to bear. For example, we have knowledge of what happens to missing children, but we are powerless to effect their release. But the knowledge that Odysseus has goes beyond even this, for they promise to tell what will happen in the future.

Odysseus has gone to hell and back. He has passed the major test of the hero. As a leader whose responsibility is to return home to his wife, (the sacred union), he must rein in his emotional center and use his mental center to govern his decisions.

He can do this, but his men can't. As Circe tells him:

'You have done a bold thing in going down alive to the house of Hades, and you will have died twice, to other people's once;

The concept of dying twice is crucial here. He has now been initiated into the mysteries by his own appropriate responses to the terrors of Hades. This is unlike the members of the crew who have not been tested in this way. They have not died twice.

Odysseus, as the leader, informs his crew of all the dangers that lie ahead except for one: the trial of Scylla
and Charybdis which is unavoidable. So Odysseus uses discretion and stays silent.

If my theory is correct that the members of the crew represent the little i's, Odysseus recognizes that he must make this sacrifice in order to return to his wife and reestablish order in Ithaca.

The reason the crew can not be allowed to hear the sirens' song is because they would all be seduced and jump ship. Now here is the interesting part.

This song seems to be lure to catch men as bait is used to catch fish. If I remember correctly, I think that in The Wave, Laura explains that the purpose of humans is to learn. But knowledge without Being leads to destruction. Can there be a clearer connection of the relationship between 4D and 3D than this? We desire knowledge, but do not have the Being to handle it so the fruits of our knowledge will devour us and feed those hyper-dimensional beings that feast on us.

 

[Laura]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Is there some importance to state ones lineage? Why was it necessary? Couldn't it be sufficient to just say "I am Ulysses"?

In Book VI of The Iliad during the Achaean Diomedes' aristeia. he encounters Glaucus who is fighting on the Trojan side.

Diomedes has just slaughtered a large number of Trojans before he comes to Glaucus. When they meet Diomedes takes a very long time answering the question during which he says the following:

"...Then Glaucus son of Hippolochus, and the son of Tydeus went into the open space between the hosts to fight in single combat. When they were close up to one another Diomedes of the loud war-cry was the first to speak. "Who, my good sir," said he, "who are you among men? I have never seen you in battle until now, but you are daring beyond all others if you abide my onset. Woe to those fathers whose sons face my might.

Luckily for Glaucon, Diomedes asks him for his lineage, and because the longer Glaucon can drag the answer out, the longer he will his answer goes on for many paragraphs and ends with these words:

"The king's daughter bore Bellerophon three children, Isander, Hippolochus, and Laodameia. Jove, the lord of counsel, lay with Laodameia, and she bore him noble Sarpedon; but when Bellerophon came to be hated by all the gods, he wandered all desolate and dismayed upon the Alean plain, gnawing at his own heart, and shunning the path of man. Mars, insatiate of battle, killed his son Isander while he was fighting the Solymi; his daughter was killed by Diana of the golden reins, for she was angered with her; but Hippolochus was father to myself, and when he sent me to Troy he urged me again and again to fight ever among the foremost and outvie my peers, so as not to shame the blood of my fathers who were the noblest in Ephyra and in all Lycia. This, then, is the descent I claim."

As Glaucon inwardly prepares to die, Diomedes responds like this:

"..." He planted his spear in the ground, and spoke to him with friendly words. "Then," he said, "you are an old friend of my father's house. Great Oeneus once entertained Bellerophon for twenty days, and the two exchanged presents. Oeneus gave a belt rich with purple, and Bellerophon a double cup, which I left at home when I set out for Troy. I do not remember Tydeus, for he was taken from us while I was yet a child, when the army of the Achaeans was cut to pieces before Thebes. Henceforth, however, I must be your host in middle Argos, and you mine in Lycia, if I should ever go there; let us avoid one another's spears even during a general engagement; there are many noble Trojans and allies whom I can kill, if I overtake them and heaven delivers them into my hand; so again with yourself, there are many Achaeans whose lives you may take if you can; we two, then, will exchange armour, that all present may know of the old ties that subsist between us."

"With these words they sprang from their chariots, grasped one another's hands, and plighted friendship. But the son of Saturn made Glaucus take leave of his wits, for he exchanged golden armour for bronze, the worth of a hundred head of cattle for the worth of nine"

Edit=Spelling

 

[Gaby]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

I'm almost done with "Where Troy Once Stood", the 2005 edition. Apparently some book dealer were selling older versions for 1500 dollars! But it seems that the 2009 edition is selling at a regular book price:

http://www.where-troy-once-stood.co.uk/where-troy-once-stood.htm

The 2009 edition revisions include:

The full reconstruction of the Trojan Battlefield in Cambridgeshire
An inventory of the countless archaeological finds dated to 1200 BC set out in the book Troy in England.
How the Odyssey was transmitted from Europe to Greece
The identity of Homer's Achaeans and their settling in Greece from western Europe
The third power active in the Mediterranean at the time, a vital part of the jigsaw.
An overview of the history of research at Hissarlik (Troy in Turkey)
Ithaca (Cadiz) elaborated in full detail as it played a major role in the Bronze Age.
A new Appendix 'The Trojan Kings of England' traces the Trojans and the royal lineage from King Priam of Troy to the British King Brutus.
A factual explanation of the Trojan Horse.
An improved Catalogue of Ships and Achaean Regiments 7 and 19 and the Trojan Regiments C, G and Q.

If the Revised 2009 edition is still pricey, perhaps the documentary is more affordable?:

Discover The Real Story of Troy (Part 1) on DVD
http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/troy-dvd/troy-dvd.htm

 

[932533]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

We studied it over one year, at school (in France) when I was ten. A lot of great pleasure. But I read some things about it and today my memories are that it's a maritime map of Medditerranean sea, when maps didn't exist for everybody. Your theory on Troy in England, Laura, is of the most importance and sounds true. But I digress, it's not Oddyssey , it's Iliad.

 

[932533]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

You have a psychological approach of Illiad on Wikipedia Illiad article talking about human/god relation.

 

[abeofarrell]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Just downloaded it into Kindle.

BTW have any of you read Ilium? It is an SF remake of the Iliad and it I think has many concepts similar. It portrays the "gods" as genetically modified superhumans from the future who have fooled common people into believing they are gods.

 

[John G]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Odysseus has gone to hell and back. He has passed the major test of the hero. As a leader whose responsibility is to return home to his wife, (the sacred union), he must rein in his emotional center and use his mental center to govern his decisions.

He can do this, but his men can't. As Circe tells him:

'You have done a bold thing in going down alive to the house of Hades, and you will have died twice, to other people's once'

The concept of dying twice is crucial here. He has now been initiated into the mysteries by his own appropriate responses to the terrors of Hades. This is unlike the members of the crew who have not been tested in this way. They have not died twice.

Odysseus, as the leader, informs his crew of all the dangers that lie ahead except for one: the trial of Scylla
and Charybdis which is unavoidable. So Odysseus uses discretion and stays silent.

If my theory is correct that the members of the crew represent the little i's, Odysseus recognizes that he must make this sacrifice in order to return to his wife and reestablish order in Ithaca.

The reason the crew can not be allowed to hear the sirens' song is because they would all be seduced and jump ship. Now here is the interesting part.

This song seems to be lure to catch men as bait is used to catch fish. If I remember correctly, I think that in The Wave, Laura explains that the purpose of humans is to learn. But knowledge without Being leads to destruction. Can there be a clearer connection of the relationship between 4D and 3D than this? We desire knowledge, but do not have the Being to handle it so the fruits of our knowledge will devour us and feed those hyper-dimensional beings that feast on us.

Seems a little like Frodo being better able to withstand the ring's temptations.

The "sacred unions" with opposites of god-human as well as male-female seem to be everywhere and seem to allow the hero to play roles of sky father (in divine councils) and mentor god (for others who still have little Is). Even outside the hero, the sky father and mentor god as father-daughter in multiple myths (Zeus-Athena) seems to be a "sacred union", the maiden phase of a goddess trinity. With gods becoming human and humans playing god roles, the lines between human and god seem to blur.

For me it seems the Cs and Laura have a sky father (mother phase of goddess trinity) - mentor god(ess) relationship as well as a needed human hero for the gods role for Laura. It seems one person can have many roles and multiple people/gods can represent a role. For Laura as mentor goddess, we in the forum with our Little Is could be heroes in training for our local hopefully not tooo big apocalypses and certainly there's no guarantee of success for anybody even the gods even the sky father/mother.

That hero child with a play on words even hit home a bit more personally than I'm overly comfortable with but it's good not to be too comfortable.