The Odyssey - Manual of Secret Teachings?

[cubbex]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Well, I relate "gut feelings" with instinct, which would be a fast way of knowing without reaching complete comprehension of what is happening, on the other hand the higher intellect may give us an exact and complete knowledge and so the hability to act accordingly to the specific situation, osit.

Well... yeah, I kinda still don't understand, maybe could you quote something or give a link to something that talks about what you are basing on?

 

[ana]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

Well, I relate "gut feelings" with instinct, which would be a fast way of knowing without reaching complete comprehension of what is happening, on the other hand the higher intellect may give us an exact and complete knowledge and so the hability to act accordingly to the specific situation, osit.

Well... yeah, I kinda still don't understand, maybe could you quote something or give a link to something that talks about what you are basing on?

Regarding instincts, it is mostly based on experience, but then the C's have already give us some hints:

Q: (L) Is there some other measuring stick that we can use to determine whether
teachings are correct or incorrect?
A: Wisdom by way of instincts; all there is -- is lessons.
Q: (SV) I was thinking about that earlier today. If you are under attack, how do you know if your instincts are correct? (L) Are instincts different from emotions?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) How can you tell the difference between instinctive knowledge and emotional reactions?
A: Emotions involve wishful thinking, instincts are "gut feelings," psychic in nature, and are stronger. When it is wishful thinking, there is always psychic instinct seeping through which you can access if you use reason and examine your lessons of the past.

A: Again, what do your instincts tell you? You have always been one who was powerfully in touch with your feelings, your insights and your sense of "right and wrong."

Regarding the higher intellectual it is described as an objective state of consciousness:
Higher centers

Mouravieff describes the higher emotional and intellectual centers as the 'eyes of the soul.' They both see differently. These centers exist in individually souled humans and are even functioning and awake but are disconnected from the lower centers which constitute the regular consciousness due not to any deficiency of the higher centers but rather due to the lower centers' lack of development and improper and sluggish functioning. The Work takes the form of preparing the lower centers in such a way that they become capable of entering into contact, however briefly, with the higher centers.

Mouravieff writes concerning these as follows on Vol. I pages 46 – 47 of Gnosis:
'Their functions are different. In the Tradition they are sometimes called the eyes of the Soul. Thus, St Isaac The Syrian said: 'While the two eyes of the body see things in an identical way, the Eyes of the Soul see diferently: one contemplates the truth in images and symbols, the other face to face." In other words, messages received through the higher emotional center can be translated into pictures or language, but they always take the form of images or symbols. This is the case, for example, with the Book of Revelations. […] As for communications received through the higher intellectual centre, they are of such a transcendent nature that there is no way in which they can be translated into human language.

Contact with the higher intellectual center is linked to the highest state of consciousness spoken of by the 4th Way, the objective consciousness of the cosmos or divine consciusness. This is so rare that it is nearly impossible to say anything about this. See Enlightenment.

So instincts (gut feelings) can give us insights and sudden sense of "right and wrong", instincts lead us to lessons too. The function of the intellectual higher center is to give us exact and complete knowledge, knowledge of the whole and its expression at each level:

A: As we have told you before, if you will be patient just a moment, the universe is merely a school. And, a school is there for all to learn. That is why everything exists. There is no other reason. Now, if only you understood the true depth of that statement, you would begin to start to see, and experience for yourself, all the levels of density that it is possible to experience, all the dimensions that it is possible to experience, all awareness. When an individual understands that statement to its greatest possible depth, that individual becomes illumined. And, certainly you have heard of that. And, for one moment, which lasts for all eternity, that individual knows absolutely everything that there is to know.

But I don't think we need to focus here, since only lessons and work lead us to know/live these states.

 

[Mikey]

I finally made it through this thread. I also listened to the full Librivox recording of The Odyssee while travelling. What touched me especially was the kindness, politeness, hospitality, nobility and eloquence of speech that can be observed between the various players. The probable hyperdimensional connection is fascinating. The depiction of the gods as real entities is awe inspiring. The almost geometric symmetry and holographic structure of The Odyssee is breathtaking and implies that "Homer" was a true master.

What I kept wondering about was the emphasis on animal sacrifices to please the gods. This habit totally flies in the face of Gurdjieff's bashing of animal sacrifices in Beelzebubs Tales to his Grandson, chapter 18 (which I'm listening to right now). I wonder if sacrifices were built into the story as a kind of strategic enclosure, to pass through the restrictions of the control system. I have no other explanation, because in my eyes, sacrifices aren't positive at all (except for 4D STS gods maybe).

 

[truth seeker]

What I kept wondering about was the emphasis on animal sacrifices to please the gods. This habit totally flies in the face of Gurdjieff's bashing of animal sacrifices in Beelzebubs Tales to his Grandson, chapter 18 (which I'm listening to right now). I wonder if sacrifices were built into the story as a kind of strategic enclosure, to pass through the restrictions of the control system. I have no other explanation, because in my eyes, sacrifices aren't positive at all (except for 4D STS gods maybe).

Or perhaps the act of sacrifice was meant symbolically, as in to give reverence to?

The term is also used metaphorically to describe selfless good deeds for others or a short term loss in return for a greater gain, such as in a game of chess. Recently it has also come into use as meaning 'doing without something' or 'giving something up' (see also self-sacrifice).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice

So maybe the sacrifice was not only a show of respect to the Universe but also an honoring of life by partaking of a diet that was most beneficial to all? Just a thought.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

What I kept wondering about was the emphasis on animal sacrifices to please the gods. This habit totally flies in the face of Gurdjieff's bashing of animal sacrifices in Beelzebubs Tales to his Grandson, chapter 18 (which I'm listening to right now). I wonder if sacrifices were built into the story as a kind of strategic enclosure, to pass through the restrictions of the control system. I have no other explanation, because in my eyes, sacrifices aren't positive at all (except for 4D STS gods maybe).

Or perhaps the act of sacrifice was meant symbolically, as in to give reverence to?

The term is also used metaphorically to describe selfless good deeds for others or a short term loss in return for a greater gain, such as in a game of chess. Recently it has also come into use as meaning 'doing without something' or 'giving something up' (see also self-sacrifice).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice

So maybe the sacrifice was not only a show of respect to the Universe but also an honoring of life by partaking of a diet that was most beneficial to all? Just a thought.

I think animals are often symbols of our "programs". Gurdjieff called them dogs and frequently advised his students to kill them. ;)

I also think taking a choice portion of the animal and giving it back to nature could be a sign of respect. It also teaches restraint, the fact that food is a gift and not to be taken lightly or greedily...

 

[cubbex]

Re: The Odyssey - question for all!

The function of the intellectual higher center is to give us exact and complete knowledge, knowledge of the whole and its expression at each level:

Interesting. Thanks for.

I knew about instinct, well, let me explain even if I'm wrong cuz :P lol I don't understand you very well, the way you compose the text, so I'll try to explain what I got from your post.

Yes, Odysseus' solution was radical and shocking, but once a host becomes aware of how him/her has been infested by "parasites guests" whom may end devouring and killing everything, exterminating the plague that pest your home is the only way to be that wich you choose to be. Since no poor or dead can offer hospitality to others.
In this stance Athena provides Odysseus with the necessary force and courage to fight the suitors.

Later on Athena wisely asks Zeus what to do in seeing that Odysseus can't stop himself:

Then Athena said to Zeus, "Our Father Cronion, king of kings, answer me this question--What do you propose to do? Will you set them fighting still further, or will you make peace between them?"

And Zeus answered, "My child, why should you ask me? Was it not by your own arrangement that Ulysses came home and took his revenge upon the suitors? Do whatever you like, but I will tell you what I think will be most reasonable arrangement. Now that Ulysses is revenged, let them swear to a solemn covenant, in virtue of which he shall continue to rule, while we cause the others to forgive and forget the massacre of their sons and brothers. Let them then all become friends as heretofore, and let peace and plenty reign."

And here we see an analogy of the need for STO oriented beings to discern and act accordingly, doing that wich is strictly necessary in every situation, always taking care of not becoming blinded by emotions, osit:

But Ulysses gave a great cry, and gathering himself together swooped down like a soaring eagle. Then the Zeus sent a thunderbolt of fire that fell just in front of Athena, so she said to Ulysses, "Ulysses, noble son of Laertes, stop this warful strife, or the Cronion will be angry with you."

Without Athena Odysseus may have ended carried away by this same force and courage that was necessary at first.
Could Athena symbolize the higher intellect and Zeus the laws of consciousness?

I used the instincts in this way. You said that when the host becomes aware of the parasite, the host began to exterminate it, Athena provided then the power needed to fight them. What the host do after becoming aware of the parasite could be seen learning a lesson, then as instincts are based on past lessons and that past lesson was becoming aware of the parasite, the host use his instinct that can be seen as a god, and that god is Athena that provides him the knowledge or the idea of what's needed to be done. If Athena is the higher intellect Odysseus couldn't commit a mistake on not stopping, because the connection with the higher intellect gives precise and knowledge of all existence.

Then Athena asks to Zeus again something she did not know how to handle, and Zeus told her that was because of her that now Ulysses can't stop. So, in some way you can see that process as asking to your soul, or yourself, what you should do now - using reason to awake that sleep knowledge - and at the same time answering that was because of you what is happening now. I think that could be because as I remember Mouravieff said the inner being was the heaven, and who inhabit the heavens? the gods, so Athena talking to Zeus can be an inner process, and the lightning - light/knowledge - the result of that inner questioning.

Then you talk about the STO oriented beings discerning, and it's just exactly - as I understood - the same you explained about gut feelings, discern right from wrong, and acting accordingly to that, "taking care of not becoming blinded by emotions", like wishful thinking and the lessons of the past used with reason to discern that now you should stop the massacre. Athena came again as the filter telling Uly what to do now, so Ulysses has been leaded to learn a lesson, or is leaded again to learn a lesson.

But I don't really know, Zeus says that they will cause the others to forgive and forget, I don't really know if Athena is the higher intellectual or the filter AkA instincts, maybe she's a sense of compassion and justice, or the symbol of a learned lesson. I think she's related to Bastet an Egyptian goddess, or it was Artemis?

 

[go2]

I finally made it through this thread. I also listened to the full Librivox recording of The Odyssee while travelling. What touched me especially was the kindness, politeness, hospitality, nobility and eloquence of speech that can be observed between the various players. The probable hyperdimensional connection is fascinating. The depiction of the gods as real entities is awe inspiring. The almost geometric symmetry and holographic structure of The Odyssee is breathtaking and implies that "Homer" was a true master.

What I kept wondering about was the emphasis on animal sacrifices to please the gods. This habit totally flies in the face of Gurdjieff's bashing of animal sacrifices in Beelzebubs Tales to his Grandson, chapter 18 (which I'm listening to right now). I wonder if sacrifices were built into the story as a kind of strategic enclosure, to pass through the restrictions of the control system. I have no other explanation, because in my eyes, sacrifices aren't positive at all (except for 4D STS gods maybe).

Gurdjieff often calls man a three-brained being. We have a instinctive-motor brain, a feeling brain, and a thinking brain. Within our three-brained being, we potentially have three one-brained beings and three two-brained beings. Our cellular structure is truly a one-brained phylogenetic heritage. The reptilian phylogenetic heritage of man is a one-brained, instinctive-motor being. The mammalian phylogenetic heritage is a two-brained being heritage of an instinctive-motor brain and a feeling brain.

Can it be we sacrifice our inner phylogenetic being heritage, one or two brains at a time? When our nutrition is suboptimal do we sacrifice one-brained inner beings? When our feeling brain is atrophied do we sacrifice our inner two-brained mammalian being heritage? When I watch TV or play video games, am I sacrificing an inner thinking being? It is a way to understand a deeper level of meaning in Beelzebub's Tales, as Mr. Gurdjieff buried the dog deeper.

 

[Path27]

What I kept wondering about was the emphasis on animal sacrifices to please the gods. This habit totally flies in the face of Gurdjieff's bashing of animal sacrifices in Beelzebubs Tales to his Grandson, chapter 18 (which I'm listening to right now). I wonder if sacrifices were built into the story as a kind of strategic enclosure, to pass through the restrictions of the control system. I have no other explanation, because in my eyes, sacrifices aren't positive at all (except for 4D STS gods maybe).

It reminds me of what has been said about 4D STS not being able to hold the 3D frequency for long when they want to interact here, unless they supplement their energy with 3D tissue and fluids like blood. So I wonder if this is the old-fashioned equivalent of cattle mutilations -- the gods being dependent on the regularity of these sacrifices in order to manifest, with humans offering them up in ignorance and never being the wiser.

That doesn't necessarily have to conflict with the suggestions that Truth Seeker and Approaching Infinity gave -- from the human point of view, it could have been sacramental, and in that sense, positive from the point of view of intention. On the other hand, it also seems like the most respectful thing that you could actually do in killing an animal whose life you required for your own sustenance would be to actually eat it all -- make use of every part so that nothing went to waste. So all things considered, I think the "gods" may have pulled a fast one here.

 

[webglider]

Quote from truthseeker:

What I kept wondering about was the emphasis on animal sacrifices to please the gods. This habit totally flies in the face of Gurdjieff's bashing of animal sacrifices in Beelzebubs Tales to his Grandson, chapter 18 (which I'm listening to right now). I wonder if sacrifices were built into the story as a kind of strategic enclosure, to pass through the restrictions of the control system. I have no other explanation, because in my eyes, sacrifices aren't positive at all (except for 4D STS gods maybe).

Look at sacrifice in terms of the contrast that it provides to the wanton destruction of Telemacho's inheritance, the disrespect to Telemachos, to the gods, and to Penelope, and I think a case can be made that the sacrifice is the beginning of Telemahos's induction into the rule of law. First of all, it is the first event that Telemachos experiences when he reaches Pylos, the island of Nestor, the wise old warrior who fought with Odysseus in The Trojan War, the one who carries the institutional memory of the way things should be done.

In contrast to the barbaric feasting in Ithaca, this meal is ceremonial: every aspect of it is choreographed, the gods are honored, and each man is assured his portion in an orderly way by taking his rightful place in his own guild discerning his rightful place among the the nine guilds each containing 500 men. It appears that there has been much experience in ordering this feast down to the nine bulls that are required to make sure that each guild receives enough meat provide the food for each man's meal.

The guests are welcomed and given choice cuts of meat and poured wine to drink. They are told to offer a prayer to the gods "For men can not live without god in the world."

The "sacrifice" here is not a sacrificen the way I think Truth Seeker understands it to be but rather may be looked at instead as a very formal ceremonial meal. Every action taken is taken with great consciousness and respect. Everyone has a place, understands the protocol, and follows it.

This experience is crucial for Telemachos who has grown up without a father and has not been inducted into the proper way a man is to behave and require others to behave in a lawful society.

We all have to sacrifice something in our lives. Telemachos has to sacrifice the example he had been given by the suitors in order to be able to take his place as the son of a king and become a future King of Ithaca. He must learn the proper way to honor and address the gods. Although he was already noble of spirit, and had passed all the tests that Athena had set for him, he desperately needs this training.

To carry the theme a little further, I suggest that this scene foreshadows Odysseus' refusal of immortality which Calypso uses to entice him to stay with her. But Odysseus embraces his humanity and chooses mortality instead. He has suffered greatly already and lost all men. However, he chooses hardship for the chance to be reunited with the part of his being that is embodied in Penelope, his wife, his soul even though as mortals both of them will die. But perhaps, in another sense each will attain a different quality of immortality than that represented by an immortal such as Calypso who can take what she wants without the payment in suffering that humans must make. By contrast, although immortal, she seems shallow and one dimensional in contrast to the depth and breadth of Odysseus' love for home, and family because, as a god, she will never suffer the way that Odysseus and Penelope have.

I think that it can't be otherwise. I think that sacrifice is necessary for growth and for the possibilty of awakening the sacred in ourselves.

but as the sun was rising from the fair sea {24} into the firmament of heaven to shed light on mortals and immortals, they reached Pylos the city of Neleus. Now the people of Pylos were gathered on the sea shore to offer sacrifice of black bulls to Neptune lord of the Earthquake. There were nine guilds with five hundred men in each, and there were nine bulls to each guild. As they were eating the inward meats {25} and burning the thigh bones [on the embers] in the name of Neptune, Telemachus and his crew arrived, furled their sails, brought their ship to anchor, and went ashore.

Minerva led the way and Telemachus followed her. Presently she said, "Telemachus, you must not be in the least shy or nervous; you have taken this voyage to try and find out where your father is buried and how he came by his end; so go straight up to Nestor that we may see what he has got to tell us. Beg of him to speak the truth, and he will tell no lies, for he is an excellent person."

"But how, Mentor," replied Telemachus, "dare I go up to Nestor, and how am I to address him? I have never yet been used to holding long conversations with people, and am ashamed to begin questioning one who is so much older than myself."

"Some things, Telemachus," answered Minerva, "will be suggested to you by your own instinct, and heaven will prompt you further; for I am assured that the gods have been with you from the time of your birth until now."

She then went quickly on, and Telemachus followed in her steps till they reached the place where the guilds of the Pylian people were assembled. There they found Nestor sitting with his sons, while his company round him were busy getting dinner ready, and putting pieces of meat on to the spits {26} while other pieces were cooking. When they saw the strangers they crowded round them, took them by the hand and bade them take their places. Nestor's son Pisistratus at once offered his hand to each of them, and seated them on some soft sheepskins that were lying on the sands near his father and his brother Thrasymedes. Then he gave them their portions of the inward meats and poured wine for them into a golden cup, handing it to Minerva first, and saluting her at the same time


"Offer a prayer, sir," said he, "to King Neptune, for it is his feast that you are joining; when you have duly prayed and made your drink offering, pass the cup to your friend that he may do so also. I doubt not that he too lifts his hands in prayer, for man cannot live without God in the world. Still he is younger than you are, and is much of an age with myself, so I will give you the precedence."

As he spoke he handed her the cup. Minerva thought it very right and proper of him to have given it to herself first; {27} she accordingly began praying heartily to Neptune. "O thou," she cried, "that encirclest the earth, vouchsafe to grant the prayers of thy servants that call upon thee. More especially we pray thee send down thy grace on Nestor and on his sons; thereafter also make the rest of the Pylian people some handsome return for the goodly hecatomb they are offering you. Lastly, grant Telemachus and myself a happy issue, in respect of the matter that has brought us in our ship to Pylos."

When she had thus made an end of praying, she handed the cup to Telemachus and he prayed likewise. By and by, when the outer meats were roasted and had been taken off the spits, the carvers gave every man his portion and they all made an excellent dinner. As soon as they had had enough to eat and drink, Nestor, knight of Gerene, began to speak.

 

[obyvatel]

What I kept wondering about was the emphasis on animal sacrifices to please the gods. This habit totally flies in the face of Gurdjieff's bashing of animal sacrifices in Beelzebubs Tales to his Grandson, chapter 18 (which I'm listening to right now). I wonder if sacrifices were built into the story as a kind of strategic enclosure, to pass through the restrictions of the control system. I have no other explanation, because in my eyes, sacrifices aren't positive at all (except for 4D STS gods maybe).

Or perhaps the act of sacrifice was meant symbolically, as in to give reverence to?

The term is also used metaphorically to describe selfless good deeds for others or a short term loss in return for a greater gain, such as in a game of chess. Recently it has also come into use as meaning 'doing without something' or 'giving something up' (see also self-sacrifice).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice

So maybe the sacrifice was not only a show of respect to the Universe but also an honoring of life by partaking of a diet that was most beneficial to all? Just a thought.

I think animals are often symbols of our "programs". Gurdjieff called them dogs and frequently advised his students to kill them. ;)

I also think taking a choice portion of the animal and giving it back to nature could be a sign of respect. It also teaches restraint, the fact that food is a gift and not to be taken lightly or greedily...

Psychologically speaking, animal sacrifice can be interpreted as a metaphor for giving up the lower nature to serve the higher. In Jungian terms, animals symbolize the instinctive nature which is predominantly an unconscious force. These powerful instinctive forces serve the purpose of protecting the psyche but a time comes as one evolves in the journey towards individuation, when these unconscious forces may need to be brought into conscious light. This is in accordance with the 4th Way view of animals as little "i's" or "programs".

Taken literally, animal sacrifice could be a sacrament giving back a portion of nourishment to nature as already stated. Hyperdimensional significance of such sacrifices is perhaps also a factor worth considering since the C's have stated that animal parts provide nourishment to hyperdimensional beings.

 

[Zadius Sky]

Re: The Odyssey - Manual of Secret Teachings?

But I don't really know, Zeus says that they will cause the others to forgive and forget, I don't really know if Athena is the higher intellectual or the filter AkA instincts, maybe she's a sense of compassion and justice, or the symbol of a learned lesson. I think she's related to Bastet an Egyptian goddess, or it was Artemis?

Initially, I think the goddess Athena represents a "Divine Mind" since basically that's what her name means. Here's what Plato said about Athena (from wiki):

In his dialogue Cratylus, the Greek philosopher Plato, 428/427 BC – 348/347 BC, gives the etymology of Athena's name, based on the view of the ancient Athenians:

That is a graver matter, and there, my friend, the modern interpreters of Homer may, I think, assist in explaining the view of the ancients. For most of these in their explanations of the poet, assert that he meant by Athena "mind" (nous) and "intelligence" dianoia, and the maker of names appears to have had a singular notion about her; and indeed calls her by a still higher title, "divine intelligence" (Thou noesis), as though he would say: This is she who has the mind better than others. Nor shall we be far wrong in supposing that the author of it wished to identify this Goddess with moral intelligence en ethei noesin, and therefore gave her the name ethonoe; which, however, either he or his successors have altered into what they thought a nicer form, and called her Athena.
- Plato, Cratylus, 407b

Thus for Plato, her name was to be derived from Greek Ἀθεονόα, Atheonóa —which the later Greeks rationalized as from the deity's (theos) mind (nous).

Here's another perspective that I have been thinking about today after reading Another Hit for the Cassiopaeans - DNA thread.

As we all know, our reptilian brain (the Predator's Mind) is more activated by what's going on in or what we have been receiving from our environments (media outlets, negative energy dynamics, trauma, and so on) and by what we eat (wheat, carbs, plants, etc.), which has been lowering our FRV. This has been greatly affecting on how we see things. As long as our Predator's Mind influences us, it is preventing us from moving upward (stuck).

As I already mentioned before in this thread: "if Odysseus is considered to be a "Higher Self," we would not recognize it unless Athena directs it so. That he is near, but we won't recognize him until we're ready, so to speak."

That Athena is our "divine mind" to which connects us with our "Higher Self" through "influences." That, as long as we are working toward the reunification and so is our "Higher Self." As above, so below.

Remember that Odysseus ("Higher Self") was "concealed" or "hidden" by Kalypso ("The Concealer"), by using sex (a draining of energy), from Athena and it wasn't until the actions of Telemachus ("mental/conscious aspect") to search for his father that signaled to the gods to release Odysseus. And later, when Odysseus landed ashore on Ithaka, Athena revealed herself to him first before recognizing that he is "home." Then, she made sure that there shall be no further disguise between Odysseus and his son (leading to a full connection), once they are alone (when Eumaios left).

So, we cannot align with our "divine mind" to connect fully with our "Higher Self" while in a current state (which is in alignment of the Predator's Mind) but there may be "influences" coming from Athena. That adjusting to meat diets, etc. will lead us down to the path of reunification?

I'm not sure if above are clear, but just thinking out loud here. fwiw.

 

[cubbex]

Very very interesting. So the odyssey is a process we all live?

 

[truth seeker]

Quote from truthseeker:

What I kept wondering about was the emphasis on animal sacrifices to please the gods. This habit totally flies in the face of Gurdjieff's bashing of animal sacrifices in Beelzebubs Tales to his Grandson, chapter 18 (which I'm listening to right now). I wonder if sacrifices were built into the story as a kind of strategic enclosure, to pass through the restrictions of the control system. I have no other explanation, because in my eyes, sacrifices aren't positive at all (except for 4D STS gods maybe).

Look at sacrifice in terms of the contrast that it provides to the wanton destruction of Telemacho's inheritance, the disrespect to Telemachos, to the gods, and to Penelope, and I think a case can be made that the sacrifice is the beginning of Telemahos's induction into the rule of law. First of all, it is the first event that Telemachos experiences when he reaches Pylos, the island of Nestor, the wise old warrior who fought with Odysseus in The Trojan War, the one who carries the institutional memory of the way things should be done.

In contrast to the barbaric feasting in Ithaca, this meal is ceremonial: every aspect of it is choreographed, the gods are honored, and each man is assured his portion in an orderly way by taking his rightful place in his own guild discerning his rightful place among the the nine guilds each containing 500 men. It appears that there has been much experience in ordering this feast down to the nine bulls that are required to make sure that each guild receives enough meat provide the food for each man's meal.

The guests are welcomed and given choice cuts of meat and poured wine to drink. They are told to offer a prayer to the gods "For men can not live without god in the world."

The "sacrifice" here is not a sacrificen the way I think Truth Seeker understands it to be but rather may be looked at instead as a very formal ceremonial meal. Every action taken is taken with great consciousness and respect. Everyone has a place, understands the protocol, and follows it.

This experience is crucial for Telemachos who has grown up without a father and has not been inducted into the proper way a man is to behave and require others to behave in a lawful society.

We all have to sacrifice something in our lives. Telemachos has to sacrifice the example he had been given by the suitors in order to be able to take his place as the son of a king and become a future King of Ithaca. He must learn the proper way to honor and address the gods. Although he was already noble of spirit, and had passed all the tests that Athena had set for him, he desperately needs this training.

To carry the theme a little further, I suggest that this scene foreshadows Odysseus' refusal of immortality which Calypso uses to entice him to stay with her. But Odysseus embraces his humanity and chooses mortality instead. He has suffered greatly already and lost all men. However, he chooses hardship for the chance to be reunited with the part of his being that is embodied in Penelope, his wife, his soul even though as mortals both of them will die. But perhaps, in another sense each will attain a different quality of immortality than that represented by an immortal such as Calypso who can take what she wants without the payment in suffering that humans must make. By contrast, although immortal, she seems shallow and one dimensional in contrast to the depth and breadth of Odysseus' love for home, and family because, as a god, she will never suffer the way that Odysseus and Penelope have.

I think that it can't be otherwise. I think that sacrifice is necessary for growth and for the possibilty of awakening the sacred in ourselves.

I believe that's data's quote, webglider. :)

 

[Piotrek]

I finally made it through this thread. I also listened to the full Librivox recording of The Odyssee while traveling. What touched me especially was the kindness, politeness, hospitality, nobility and eloquence of speech that can be observed between the various players. The probable hyperdimensional connection is fascinating. The depiction of the gods as real entities is awe inspiring. The almost geometric symmetry and holographic structure of The Odyssey is breathtaking and implies that "Homer" was a true master.

I've been following this thread on and off for a bit and have only now started listening to the Librivox edition while commuting to/from work.
Data's assessment is something I experienced, as well. In fact, I started crying somewhere in the middle of book one, sobbing all the way through book two (which is where I am now). I am fascinated with the eloquence with which all the characters carry and express themselves. Even the suitors play their 'role' with the utmost diligence (using and abusing the hospitality and resources of Oddyseus's house).
If nothing else becomes apparent to me, it is a true pleasure to listen to...

 

[luke wilson]

On the subject of animal sacrifice: My thoughts, abit literal, not interms of centers and just a play of ideas/possibilities..

There seems to be a fascination with animal sacrifice to the Gods in myths. I don't know what the formal definition of a God is but it appears each God is assigned a specific part of nature to kind of control in a specific realm at a specific portion of space/time(since apparently even the Gods can die or be overthrown according to the myths) but they aren't exactly that part itself(nature itself like for example rain or fertility), as in they also have rules and laws to follow in order to control something specific. So my thoughts are this is the God that is receiving the sacrifice, not the actual part of nature he controls itself.

Anywaaaaaays, back to the subject of sacrifice. So what if animal sacrifice are not actually 'animals' like 2D animals but are actually 3D human beings who other people see as an animal maybe because of specific qualities and who by himself/herself being sacrificed it nourishes the God in a special kind of way who then bestows fortune on the ones carrying out the sacrifice. So we know Gods of the 4D STS variety who run our realm eat human beings primarily, so maybe animal sacrifice in myths arent actually 2D animals but people of a certain quality..? Kind of like, "you can all die or only 'he/she' can die, you choose?"

Sooo, in conclusion maybe an animal in this case might be used as a reference to someone or a specific group of people who have a unique extra special(maybe genetic) intimacy with the environment/nature the same way animals have a good adaptation to there specific natural niche?

Anyways, just my thoughts. I have absolutely ZERO proof. Consider it playing around with ideas.