Thinking of having LASIK?

Horseofadifferentcolor

Jedi Council Member
H.E. , I can understand being afraid of not being able to see in a situation where there is not an eye doctor in every strip mall on every other block. I gave this alot of thought last year and almost had the surgery myself. Waking up in the morning and not being able to see is an awful feeling. I think people with good vision have no idea how good they have things. Its to bad all that good vision is wasted on most folks :rolleyes:
I freaked out on the thought of not having sight so I went and bought 2 pairs of glasses and about $500 dollars worth of contacts. Even stocked up on eye solution. The doc found it pretty funny because I told her the truth about me wanting all those extras in case the end of the world as we know it!

I wanted to share a contact brand that changed my life. It is called Night and Day by Air Optix. These are lens that you can wear up to thirty days without taking them out. I still do take mine out every few days though. With these, my eyes feel great from morning to night without having to always put drops in. I just can't say enough good things about this brand. They are what stopped me from getting sugery. Most days I dont even think about my vision!
 

mabar

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Thanks Lilou, that is good to know, some people had told for me to consider another eye operation (laser). I had one like 20 years ago but with cuts made with diamond knife, but from my perspective looked like a blurred medieval mallet, I was conscious all the time, although It did not hurt in the process, I was too affected by lights afterwards. I needed to use sun glasses for two months, I usually do not wear sun glasses.

At that time did not know/remember specifics, I found in wikipedia being a Radial keratotomy (RK) is a refractive surgical procedure to correct myopia (_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_keratotomy)

Astigmatism had been increasing and some myopia, I use glasses for driving and for the computer nowadays.

Certainly I am not that enthusiastic to have “something threatening” near my eyes again. Eventhough, If I have the money to do it (which I do not have now), I prefer to pass.

Did not help either that I saw this movie about a guy being abducted by aliens and making him experiments in his eyes the day before. And did not help either, that the armchair I was lying on, looked pretty much similar to the ones dentists have (I had issues with dentists).
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Horseofadifferentcolor said:
H.E. , I can understand being afraid of not being able to see in a situation where there is not an eye doctor in every strip mall on every other block. I gave this alot of thought last year and almost had the surgery myself. Waking up in the morning and not being able to see is an awful feeling. I think people with good vision have no idea how good they have things. Its to bad all that good vision is wasted on most folks :rolleyes:
I freaked out on the thought of not having sight so I went and bought 2 pairs of glasses and about $500 dollars worth of contacts. Even stocked up on eye solution. The doc found it pretty funny because I told her the truth about me wanting all those extras in case the end of the world as we know it!
Horse.. have you checked if those lenses have expiry date...

Horseofadifferentcolor said:
I wanted to share a contact brand that changed my life. It is called Night and Day by Air Optix. These are lens that you can wear up to thirty days without taking them out. I still do take mine out every few days though. With these, my eyes feel great from morning to night without having to always put drops in. I just can't say enough good things about this brand. They are what stopped me from getting sugery. Most days I dont even think about my vision!

I am using Air Optix monthly ones which are bearable, but yes like you most of the days I dont even think of vision. And most of the days I slap the lenses on my eyes at 6AM and wear them until 8PM without any discomfort. On some days there is some slight burning and more blinking but thats all. My eyes are sometimes red but most of the times they look ok.
Today, inquired about daily contacts with torric correction ( I have astigmatism ) and they told me they do exist but they might not be as sharp as my monthly ones. I ordered some samples and will try them and see how good they are.

Not sure about sleeping with lenses, I think its never good idea no matter how they market them. I would be careful if I were you. Its not just the matter of gas permeability but also protein deposit and potential for infection.
I recently ended up with blown up eyelid for a week and only because I forgot to change my monthly lenses ( i wore them 4 instead of usual 3 weeks). In fact it is this episode of conjunctivitis that rekindled my desire to do LASIK.

But I finally decided NOT to do it after all. There are numerous reasons for this...

Firstly, as I said my life is not so bad with lenses and glasses. I will look into daily lenses which will minimize potential for infections and I will also get new glasses possibly with thinner lenses as the ones I have were made 6 or 7 years ago and I am sure nowadays they make much thinner and lighter lenses.

Even if the chance for complications is minimal , there is a chance and I dont want to risk it.
One of LASIK induced chronic dry eye sufferers describes setting the alarm clock every night for 2 h intervals so that he can put in artificial tears. Otherwise he wakes up to excruciating pain because his eyelids get stuck to epithelium and they tear it.
I know perfectly well what kind of pain this is, its the worst pain I ever experienced in my life. It happened two times back in teenage days when I used to wear hard contact lenses and would wear them too much causing corneal erosion. It is definitely the pain that can drive you mad and both times I ended up in emergency room begging for Novocain drops in my eyes.
So no matter how slim the prospects for this to happen again are, I am not risking it.

Secondly after all the research it seems that nobody really knows what the long term effects might be and that is not good enough for me.
The scary thing is also that if you ever develop disturbances in ocular pressure (glaucoma is increase in ocular pressure) later in life they can never measure this correctly after you have reshaped the cornea.

And finally - the cornea is such delicate system with micro-circulation and innervation, once you cut through it it will never be the same. They said that cornea after lasik surgery has only 20 % strength of what it use to be, which means that any blow to the eye can be devastating. This fact is really scary.
There was also some postmortem study on 20 LASIK patients and in every case there were severe pathological changes on all layers of epithelium. In addition there is some evidence LASIK can bring on Cataract and irreversible changes in the eye lens.
I have always wondered- why most of the opticians and optometrists I met still wear glasses or lenses, now I know why.

Anyhow I think this is where my flirting with this idea of doing LASIK has died on the spot.
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I found the research which showed that Omega 3 supplementation improves tear film in the eye.
I we been experimenting with putting few drops of Cod-liver oil in the eyes before sleep and there is significant improvement with lenses tolerance. You just have to make sure the oil is ultra distilled and comes from reliable brand.
 

Horseofadifferentcolor

Jedi Council Member
H.E. said:
Horseofadifferentcolor said:
H.E. , I can understand being afraid of not being able to see in a situation where there is not an eye doctor in every strip mall on every other block. I gave this alot of thought last year and almost had the surgery myself. Waking up in the morning and not being able to see is an awful feeling. I think people with good vision have no idea how good they have things. Its to bad all that good vision is wasted on most folks :rolleyes:
I freaked out on the thought of not having sight so I went and bought 2 pairs of glasses and about $500 dollars worth of contacts. Even stocked up on eye solution. The doc found it pretty funny because I told her the truth about me wanting all those extras in case the end of the world as we know it!
Horse.. have you checked if those lenses have expiry date...

Horseofadifferentcolor said:
I wanted to share a contact brand that changed my life. It is called Night and Day by Air Optix. These are lens that you can wear up to thirty days without taking them out. I still do take mine out every few days though. With these, my eyes feel great from morning to night without having to always put drops in. I just can't say enough good things about this brand. They are what stopped me from getting sugery. Most days I dont even think about my vision!

I am using Air Optix monthly ones which are bearable, but yes like you most of the days I dont even think of vision. And most of the days I slap the lenses on my eyes at 6AM and wear them until 8PM without any discomfort. On some days there is some slight burning and more blinking but thats all. My eyes are sometimes red but most of the times they look ok.
Today, inquired about daily contacts with torric correction ( I have astigmatism ) and they told me they do exist but they might not be as sharp as my monthly ones. I ordered some samples and will try them and see how good they are.

Not sure about sleeping with lenses, I think its never good idea no matter how they market them. I would be careful if I were you. Its not just the matter of gas permeability but also protein deposit and potential for infection.
I recently ended up with blown up eyelid for a week and only because I forgot to change my monthly lenses ( i wore them 4 instead of usual 3 weeks). In fact it is this episode of conjunctivitis that rekindled my desire to do LASIK.

But I finally decided NOT to do it after all. There are numerous reasons for this...

Firstly, as I said my life is not so bad with lenses and glasses. I will look into daily lenses which will minimize potential for infections and I will also get new glasses possibly with thinner lenses as the ones I have were made 6 or 7 years ago and I am sure nowadays they make much thinner and lighter lenses.

Even if the chance for complications is minimal , there is a chance and I dont want to risk it.
One of LASIK induced chronic dry eye sufferers describes setting the alarm clock every night for 2 h intervals so that he can put in artificial tears. Otherwise he wakes up to excruciating pain because his eyelids get stuck to epithelium and they tear it.
I know perfectly well what kind of pain this is, its the worst pain I ever experienced in my life. It happened two times back in teenage days when I used to wear hard contact lenses and would wear them too much causing corneal erosion. It is definitely the pain that can drive you mad and both times I ended up in emergency room begging for Novocain drops in my eyes.
So no matter how slim the prospects for this to happen again are, I am not risking it.

Secondly after all the research it seems that nobody really knows what the long term effects might be and that is not good enough for me.
The scary thing is also that if you ever develop disturbances in ocular pressure (glaucoma is increase in ocular pressure) later in life they can never measure this correctly after you have reshaped the cornea.

And finally - the cornea is such delicate system with micro-circulation and innervation, once you cut through it it will never be the same. They said that cornea after lasik surgery has only 20 % strength of what it use to be, which means that any blow to the eye can be devastating. This fact is really scary.
There was also some postmortem study on 20 LASIK patients and in every case there were severe pathological changes on all layers of epithelium. In addition there is some evidence LASIK can bring on Cataract and irreversible changes in the eye lens.
I have always wondered- why most of the opticians and optometrists I met still wear glasses or lenses, now I know why.

Anyhow I think this is where my flirting with this idea of doing LASIK has died on the spot.

Yes, I checked on experation dates before buying so many. They expire in 2016. Glad you found all your info to make an informed choice on surgery. I know I would be one of the ones with complications if I had elected for surgery. It really makes me thankful that I can see at all.
 

JayMark

The Living Force
Mrs. Peel said:
I was born severely nearsighted and wore Coke-bottle thick lenses all through my childhood into my 30s. I had such a complex about them from years of ridicule that in my mid 30s I underwent radial keratotomy, which was the cornea surgery offered pre-LASIK and done by hand. :scared:

Long story short, my astigmatism and myopia were too severe for the surgery but the doctor didn't tell me that. I still wear glasses, although now they are much thinner. My vision fluccuates the entire day, and it's impossible to get an accurate eye glass prescription. My night vision has been destroyed so that I see halos, starbursts, and shadows, which make it practically impossible to drive after sunset.

So, while I understand the desire to be free of glasses, if one can wear contacts comfortably (I could not, dry eyes), then no way in you-know-where would I ever have any surgery on my eyes again.

Thank for sharing Mrs. Peel. This shows how delicate these things can be. No matter how people think it's safe, stories like yours can and do happen, unfortunately. Sorry to hear about the damages done.

I used to wear contacts but just like you, my eyes would get terribly dry sometimes so much that I would dream of having a river flowing directly into my eyes. :P

Peace.
 

JayMark

The Living Force
Horseofadifferentcolor said:
H.E. , I can understand being afraid of not being able to see in a situation where there is not an eye doctor in every strip mall on every other block. I gave this alot of thought last year and almost had the surgery myself. Waking up in the morning and not being able to see is an awful feeling. I think people with good vision have no idea how good they have things. Its to bad all that good vision is wasted on most folks :rolleyes:
I freaked out on the thought of not having sight so I went and bought 2 pairs of glasses and about $500 dollars worth of contacts. Even stocked up on eye solution. The doc found it pretty funny because I told her the truth about me wanting all those extras in case the end of the world as we know it!

I wanted to share a contact brand that changed my life. It is called Night and Day by Air Optix. These are lens that you can wear up to thirty days without taking them out. I still do take mine out every few days though. With these, my eyes feel great from morning to night without having to always put drops in. I just can't say enough good things about this brand. They are what stopped me from getting sugery. Most days I dont even think about my vision!

Don't you think you might be a little too concerned about your bad vision and about the convenience of contacts over glasses?

I mean, if the contacts make you feel better about it I guess it's not a bad thing at all but what if there comes a situation in the upcoming times where you lose them? Couldn't this put you in an emotional state that could make you lose part of your focus about the emergency situation or in other words, endanger you?

Some people might not have any vision problems but might have, on the other hand, other issues that you don't have. So while I think it is important for us to make sure that these issues won't be problematic in the future (like having spare glasses and contacts) I also think it is important to think about other issues of greater importance that we could be facing as well.

Anyhow, not judging or anything here. I'm just trying to bring something for you to reflect on in the hopes you'll be able to overcome this issue as it seems to bother/scare you a lot.

Take care. If I missinterpreted you or the situation, feel free to tell me. I could be wrong.

Peace.
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
FWIW I do understand where is HODC coming from.
I use to be worry about it too, but then I realized that the best way I can prepare myself is to effect the inner change, then everything else will follow, like it always does. I dont know if this makes any sense to you, but that's how I feel at the moment.
 

Horseofadifferentcolor

Jedi Council Member
JayMark said:
Horseofadifferentcolor said:
H.E. , I can understand being afraid of not being able to see in a situation where there is not an eye doctor in every strip mall on every other block. I gave this alot of thought last year and almost had the surgery myself. Waking up in the morning and not being able to see is an awful feeling. I think people with good vision have no idea how good they have things. Its to bad all that good vision is wasted on most folks :rolleyes:
I freaked out on the thought of not having sight so I went and bought 2 pairs of glasses and about $500 dollars worth of contacts. Even stocked up on eye solution. The doc found it pretty funny because I told her the truth about me wanting all those extras in case the end of the world as we know it!

I wanted to share a contact brand that changed my life. It is called Night and Day by Air Optix. These are lens that you can wear up to thirty days without taking them out. I still do take mine out every few days though. With these, my eyes feel great from morning to night without having to always put drops in. I just can't say enough good things about this brand. They are what stopped me from getting sugery. Most days I dont even think about my vision!

Don't you think you might be a little too concerned about your bad vision and about the convenience of contacts over glasses?

I mean, if the contacts make you feel better about it I guess it's not a bad thing at all but what if there comes a situation in the upcoming times where you lose them? Couldn't this put you in an emotional state that could make you lose part of your focus about the emergency situation or in other words, endanger you?

Some people might not have any vision problems but might have, on the other hand, other issues that you don't have. So while I think it is important for us to make sure that these issues won't be problematic in the future (like having spare glasses and contacts) I also think it is important to think about other issues of greater importance that we could be facing as well.

Anyhow, not judging or anything here. I'm just trying to bring something for you to reflect on in the hopes you'll be able to overcome this issue as it seems to bother/scare you a lot.

Take care. If I missinterpreted you or the situation, feel free to tell me. I could be wrong.

Peace.

I understand the emotional side of what you are saying. You are right in a way. I see it(no pun) as being prepared the best I can and that has helped my being scared of not being able to see. I also see it as natural wanting good vision as it means in tough times wether or not you are eating that day. I have -5.75 vision. Not the best/not the worst.

I'm not really sure this is just an emotional issue, but knowledge and being prepared for tough times. How would pondering on this emotionally help me, when or if I did not prepare for good vision? I could feel cool as a cucumber but still be blind and not as productive. I see it as a saftey issue and worth thinking about. Thats they way I see it(pun) :P
 

Lilou

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Thanks for the information about the post-mortem studies, HE. I have not read any of those - but I have always told patients - once they cut the cornea, it is never the same again. I just didn't realize there were pathological changes in the epithelium in ALL cases. That is scary. :scared:

Since you are having no trouble wearing your contacts from early morning until evening, I think you've made the right decision about NOT having Lasik. The long term studies really don't exisit, and the statistics available are often skewed by those with a vested interest in Lasik.

If you are concerned about changing times and having vision, just get yourself a few spare pair of glasses (I have at least 6 pair, if not more, even though I have never even worn most of them!). Also stock up on contacts and solution. As for expiration dates, I would not even worry about it. I think it is the same as with any pharmaceutical, they put an expiration date, but in reality, as long as they are not exposed to heat and the package is sealed, there is no problem using a contact - years after the expiration date. I would not hesitate to use an expired lens.

As for the cod liver oil in the eye, I think it is a good idea. How are you diluting it? Bausch & Lomb put an artificial tear on the market a couple of years ago called Soothe XP. All it is is "light mineral oil". It works really well, but as DugDeep pointed out to me, it is still a petro product! So my enthusiasm for it waned. But cod liver oil may be the way to go.

Personally, I use 20% DMSO (diluted with saline) a few times a week. It is suppose to keep the lens detoxed and prevent cataracts. Also, a drop or two of this DMSO at the first sign of conjunctivitis/contact lens related infections, knocks it out overnight. (This is from personal experience). And since DMSO is anti-viral, anti-fungal, and anti-bacterial, it doesn't matter what the cause is - it kills it all.
 

Horseofadifferentcolor

Jedi Council Member
Lilou said:
Thanks for the information about the post-mortem studies, HE. I have not read any of those - but I have always told patients - once they cut the cornea, it is never the same again. I just didn't realize there were pathological changes in the epithelium in ALL cases. That is scary. :scared:

Since you are having no trouble wearing your contacts from early morning until evening, I think you've made the right decision about NOT having Lasik. The long term studies really don't exisit, and the statistics available are often skewed by those with a vested interest in Lasik.

If you are concerned about changing times and having vision, just get yourself a few spare pair of glasses (I have at least 6 pair, if not more, even though I have never even worn most of them!). Also stock up on contacts and solution. As for expiration dates, I would not even worry about it. I think it is the same as with any pharmaceutical, they put an expiration date, but in reality, as long as they are not exposed to heat and the package is sealed, there is no problem using a contact - years after the expiration date. I would not hesitate to use an expired lens.

As for the cod liver oil in the eye, I think it is a good idea. How are you diluting it? Bausch & Lomb put an artificial tear on the market a couple of years ago called Soothe XP. All it is is "light mineral oil". It works really well, but as DugDeep pointed out to me, it is still a petro product! So my enthusiasm for it waned. But cod liver oil may be the way to go.

Personally, I use 20% DMSO (diluted with saline) a few times a week. It is suppose to keep the lens detoxed and prevent cataracts. Also, a drop or two of this DMSO at the first sign of conjunctivitis/contact lens related infections, knocks it out overnight. (This is from personal experience). And since DMSO is anti-viral, anti-fungal, and anti-bacterial, it doesn't matter what the cause is - it kills it all.

Is this DMSO for eyes or just a concoction made from the normal over the counter stuff? Thanks, I keep reading about DMSO in other threads and need to do my reading on it. I have no idea what this stuff is.

Also just curious what others think, but I use Complete easy rub formula. Any thoughts on good or bad, or whats the most natural, or a homemade eye solution? Again thanks for all the advice and info.
 

Lilou

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
DMSO is a solvent and powerful anti-inflammatory agent. It also is a powerful vehicle, meaning it will aborb whatever you mix in the DMSO, straight into the blood stream. So you can suspend anti-biotic or anti-viral powder in the DMSO, apply it topically, and it goes right to work killing off the bugs.

It has a similar chemical structure to acetone (carbon is replaced by sulfur in DMSO). I dilute 99.9% pure DMSO with sterile saline to about 20% (2 parts DMSO, 8 parts sterile saline). Saline can be purchased at any Walgreens, Wal-Mart, etc. So yeah, it is a concoction, but be sure not to purchase vet grade, it's only 90% pure. You want pharmaceutical grade and a glass dropper bottle.

The only thing on the market for disinfecting contacts that doesn't have preservatives in it, is the hydrogen peroxide systems (ClearCare aka AOSept). The problem with it is it takes 6-8 hours to neutralize from peroxide to saline, so you can't put your lenses back in till the process is complete. I personally don't like it, it strips all the conditioners out of my lenses and makes them feel dry. So otherwise, most no rub solutions are fairly similar. I use Bio-True by Bausch & Lomb. The Opti-free has too many conditioners in it, and it causes a build up on my lenses. Complete is ok, but it also dried my lenses. So guess its whatever works for you.

Be sure to read the DMSO thread in the Diet and Health Section. This stuff is amazing.
 

Beorn

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
I use the The Program for Better Vision by Martin Sussman. I don't wear glasses but when my eyes started to go bad I bought the book and went to see an optometrist. By the time my glasses arrived my eyes had changed so much (for the better) that I couldn't wear the glasses. I went back to the optometrist and he apologized profusely for getting the prescription wrong. I'm not sure if they work for everyone but it definitely seemed to help in my case.
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Lilou said:
As for the cod liver oil in the eye, I think it is a good idea. How are you diluting it? Bausch & Lomb put an artificial tear on the market a couple of years ago called Soothe XP. All it is is "light mineral oil". It works really well, but as DugDeep pointed out to me, it is still a petro product! So my enthusiasm for it waned. But cod liver oil may be the way to go.
I wasn't diluting it, and it is a bit heavy but if i put it before sleep it works fine, I used it when I had conjunctivitis and it seemed to have helped, but I dont think it should be used undiluted if you are supplementing cod liver oil and omega 3 internally. I dont have any idea what substance would be good as diluent.

Do you remember few years ago when Bausch & Lomb had a product for lenses which was linked to very dangerous fungal keratitis, I personally know one person who permanently lost vision in one eye due to it.
http://www.allaboutvision.com/contacts/fungal-eye-infections.htm

Since then I wouldn't touch Bausch&Lomb products with barge pole. I am using Solo care by Ciba vision and I am quite happy with it.

Thanks for the DMSO suggestion, I will experiment with it.

JP in my opinion Better Vision program cannot do anything for people with severe myopia or astigmatism. This condition is caused by structural make up of cornea and no amount of exercises will correct it.
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Lilou here it is:

Pathologic Findings in Postmortem Corneas After Successful Laser In Situ Keratomileusis.

Cornea. 24(1):92-102, January 2005.

Kramer, Theresa R MD, MBA; Chuckpaiwong, Varintorn MD; Dawson, Daniel G MD; L'Hernault, Nancy; Grossniklaus, Hans E MD; Edelhauser, Henry F PHD

Abstract:
Purpose: To examine the histologic and ultrastructural features of human corneas after successful laser in situ keratomileusis (LASIK).

Methods: Corneas from 48 eyes of 25 postmortem patients were processed for histology and transmission electron microscopy (TEM). The 25 patients had LASIK between 3 months and 7 years prior to death. Evaluation of all 5 layers of the cornea and the LASIK flap interface region was done using routine histology, periodic acid-Schiff (PAS)-stained specimens, toluidine blue-stained thick sections, and TEM.

Results: In patients for whom visual acuity was known, the first postoperative day uncorrected visual acuity was 20/15 to 20/30. In patients for whom clinical records were available, the postoperative corneal topography was normal and clinical examination showed a semicircular ring of haze at the wound margin of the LASIK flap. Histologically, the LASIK flap measured, on average, 142.7 [mu]m (range, 100-200). A spectrum of abnormal histopathologic and ultrastructural findings was present in all corneas. Findings at the flap surface included elongated basal epithelial cells, epithelial hyperplasia, thickening and undulations of the epithelial basement membrane (EBM), and undulations of Bowman's layer. Findings in or adjacent to the wound included collagen lamellar disarray; activated keratocytes; quiescent keratocytes with small vacuoles; epithelial ingrowth; eosinophilic deposits; PAS-positive, electron-dense granular material interspersed with randomly ordered collagen fibrils; increased spacing between collagen fibrils; and widely spaced banded collagen. There was no observable correlation between postoperative intervals and the severity or type of pathologic change except for the accumulation the electron-dense granular material.

Conclusions: Permanent pathologic changes were present in all post-LASIK corneas. These changes were most prevalent in the lamellar interface wound. These changes along with other pathologic alterations in post-LASIK corneas may change the functionality of the cornea after LASIK.

(C) 2005 Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, Inc.
 
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