Timeline of Zionist Terror

[Joe]

Just as the same argument can be made about saddam hussein: did Iraq 'control america' because american policy favoured Iraq through 70's + 80s?? what's the difference? I contend none

It is not a matter of supporting a country militarily or financially for strategic reasons for a period of time, Israel WOULD NOT EXIST without the US. The US has funded Israel to the tune of billions of dollars in NON-REFUNDABLE loans every year from the day and hour of its "birth". Successive American governments have unfailingly supplied Israel with the latest military technology so that it could "defend itself". The facts, in which you are apparently not interested, fly in the face of your argument.

So what is your point? Do you simply want to disagree with every point made to you? Are you determined to hold on to your opinion regardless of the facts?

Joe

 

[the_last_name_left]

It isn't a myth because

I think it IS a myth.

there is a wealth of objective evidence to back it up.

No there isn't. As I said - there is NO historical precedent. The suggested historical precedent given by nf3 is about what? Looks like the entire history of the jews to me - am I supposed to read all that? Why can't you just give me a SINGLE historical precedent instead of giving me a book? I only asked for an historical precedent so I can't realistically accept an entire book as an answer? I can't possibly read it all - and even doing so might presume there WAS even an answer in there? I don't know that, nor could I without reading it all. So no historical precedent?

Joe: Israel WOULD NOT EXIST without the US.

Well, so I keep hearing. Assuming that is true - how exactly does that mean USA is in thrall to Israel, and not the other way around? If Israel cannot exist without america, then why doesn't that mean Israel is in direct and perpetual bondage to the USA?

If a serf can only exist because of the largesse of his master - who has control?

If Israel is powerful enough to bring the USA to do its bidding then how does it make sense to say Israel is some weakling state that would be impossible without USA? Maybe it would, but surely if they are such resolute and industrious schemers such as to subvert the USA then they might manage to find some other nation to leech off of? Anyway - I don't think it is a clearcut thing whether Israel would 'survive' or not without US aid - they surely have a PlanB,c,d etc?

I'd suggest that without american largesse Israel might be forced into a settlement. More likely? Without US support esp. at UN then Israel might very quickly be faced with a very serious situation and a settlement could happen? Who knows?

This is obviously touchy subject?

In essence there is that difference in perspective between us - for some, Israel's dependence on USA is proof that Israel must control america; for me, I just see it all as proof of israel's dependence on USA.

Israel can and does order U.S. presidents around.

So I keep hearing. I don't believe it. Could you give some specific examples?

if you wanted to do some research with an open mind instead of clinging to your "opinions" for dear life.

Are you determined to hold on to your opinion regardless of the facts?

BECAUSE OF the facts..........not despite them. :)

In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane.
Oscar Wilde

 

[Mr. Premise]

Israel can and does order U.S. presidents around.

So I keep hearing. I don't believe it. Could you give some specific examples?

No. We already have given you examples and you ignore them.

if you wanted to do some research with an open mind instead of clinging to your "opinions" for dear life.

Are you determined to hold on to your opinion regardless of the facts?

BECAUSE OF the facts..........not despite them. :)

In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane.
Oscar Wilde

Have you read the thread on opinions yet?

You ignore all facts that don't support your preconceived notion and the facts that you think do support your position don't support them at all. This feels exactly like the thread started by that vapiref00d guy.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Israel is only temporarily dependent on the U.S. Which means Israel is USING the U.S. and as soon as the U.S. is used up, Israel will attach itself to the next power until it IS the next world power.

It's like a con-person, say, sponging off a widow or widower. As soon as the money dries up they are gone. Does that mean the widow/er is the one in control? No. Of course not.

In essence there is that difference in perspective between us - for some, Israel's dependence on USA is proof that Israel must control america; for me, I just see it all as proof of israel's dependence on USA.

Israel can and does order U.S. presidents around.

So I keep hearing. I don't believe it. Could you give some specific examples?

if you wanted to do some research with an open mind instead of clinging to your "opinions" for dear life.

Are you determined to hold on to your opinion regardless of the facts?

BECAUSE OF the facts..........not despite them. :)

In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane.
Oscar Wilde

 

[Mr. Premise]

Reading this again, Joe, I disagree, with one point. Israel WOULD exist without the U.S., it would have done the same thing it did in the U.S. in whatever other country was the world hegemon.

Like when the Zionists played both sides in WWI until they realized the allied powers would win, then they concentrated on Britain.

Your point, though, which LNL missed, is that the aid is excessive and exploitative: Israel exploiting their power over the U.S.

There is no way that the U.S. as superpower would not have supported Israel (which means that the U.S. is really the client state) so there is no point in saying that Israel would not exist without the U.S.

It is not a matter of supporting a country militarily or financially for strategic reasons for a period of time, Israel WOULD NOT EXIST without the US. The US has funded Israel to the tune of billions of dollars in NON-REFUNDABLE loans every year from the day and hour of its "birth". Successive American governments have unfailingly supplied Israel with the latest military technology so that it could "defend itself". The facts, in which you are apparently not interested, fly in the face of your argument.

So what is your point? Do you simply want to disagree with every point made to you? Are you determined to hold on to your opinion regardless of the facts?

Joe

 

[Anders]

there is a wealth of objective evidence to back it up.

No there isn't. As I said - there is NO historical precedent. The suggested historical precedent given by nf3 is about what? Looks like the entire history of the jews to me - am I supposed to read all that? Why can't you just give me a SINGLE historical precedent instead of giving me a book? I only asked for an historical precedent so I can't realistically accept an entire book as an answer? I can't possibly read it all - and even doing so might presume there WAS even an answer in there? I don't know that, nor could I without reading it all. So no historical precedent?

The above link suggested by nf3 is not the entire history of the jews but of zionism. There is a BIG difference.

It might not be worth pointing out more things for you LNL, if there is no interest in reading what has already been offered by the others here.
There is a short article here that gives you some examples: The Myth of Tiny, Little Israel: Zionist Tentacles Everywhere

Israel WOULD NOT EXIST without the US.

Well, so I keep hearing. Assuming that is true - how exactly does that mean USA is in thrall to Israel, and not the other way around? If Israel cannot exist without america, then why doesn't that mean Israel is in direct and perpetual bondage to the USA?

The US has consistently vetoed any UN resolutions against Israel. 60+ times since 1967. See here U.S. Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel
and
Mr. Bush, What about Israel's defiance of UN Resolutions?

Israel (not Indonesia or any other state) is guarding the nukes in the US U.S. Nuclear Weapons Being “Guarded” by Israel

Likewise Israeli companies are guarding many airports in the US including the ones on 9-11. Israeli companies are also running the phone companies in the US with an inbuilt trapdoor so that wiretapping is possible anywhere without US oversight.

So while there are other bullies in the school yard, the SOTT team focuses on the main bully, as no-one else dares to speak about that one without (deliberately) muddling it up into a jewish issue. OSIT

Anders

 

[Laura]

Last name, I understand what you are trying to say, but you don't have enough data. How about taking a break for a day or two and read this book, free online then, let's discuss it in some detail:

http://www.kasjo.net/reeedcontrov.pdf

 

[Joe]

Reading this again, Joe, I disagree, with one point. Israel WOULD exist without the U.S., it would have done the same thing it did in the U.S. in whatever other country was the world hegemon.

Like when the Zionists played both sides in WWI until they realized the allied powers would win, then they concentrated on Britain.

Your point, though, which LNL missed, is that the aid is excessive and exploitative: Israel exploiting their power over the U.S.

There is no way that the U.S. as superpower would not have supported Israel (which means that the U.S. is really the client state) so there is no point in saying that Israel would not exist without the U.S.

Both WWI and WWII would have probably turned out very differently without the help of the US, and those wars were instrumental in the formation of the state of Israel. My point is that as history has evolved to today, if you removed all of the assistance given to Israel by the US over the past 60 years, Israel would not be what it is today, it would not exist. The point then can be made that Israel effectively controls America, unless of course you want to say that it is simply a case that their interests just happened to be the same during that whole time.

Joe

 

[the_last_name_left]

anders:while there are other bullies in the school yard, the SOTT team focuses on the main bully, as no-one else dares to speak about that one without (deliberately) muddling it up into a jewish issue.

thanks - that's the best answer to my original question. :) [why a timeline of zionist terror?]

I'm grateful for the responses - but I am familiar with much of it, and my reasoning and arguments persist. I'm left thinking about when somebody disagrees with you - about how easy it is to imagine they couldn't possibly be aware of the same facts, the same arguments that have led yourself to your own conclusion?

It's just perspective, isn't it? None of the arguments presented, or that I've seen (countless times) elsewhere convince me that "Israel controls USA", or zionism does, or any such thing.

Obviously Israel/zionism/jews have some influence on american policy - the different groups in different ways. Especially over their obvious interests - israel/zionism whatever.

However, as my original question said "Why a ZIONIST terror timeline?" if, at most, Israel exercises control over USA in regards to MidEastern policy only, I am left wondering why such a noise about Israel influencing US policy in the first place? The USA acts so similarly elsewhere and in the past.

So what is it that the Israeli'/zionist persuasion is actually doing when all that is achieved is an american middle eastern policy that looks like american and imperial policy most anywhere else?

If american policy over Israel were in anyway anti-thetical or contradictory to american policy elsewhere in the world - then the argument might have some weight?

From that perspective - and considering the belligerence and prevalence of imperial america across the world and into space - and from the perspective that america is ostensibly democratic then I have to say that anders' quote should be speaking about america.

So while there are other bullies in the school yard, the SOTT team focuses on the main bully, as no-one else dares to speak about that one without (deliberately) muddling it up into a jewish issue.

From my perspective concentrating on the zionist/israeli issues IS just muddling it up into 'a jewish issue'.

For one thing - if zionism/israeli influence only really effects USA policy over MiddleEast, then even 'perfectly fixing' the Israeli/Zionist issues (however done) will only effect USA policy in the MiddleEast? The USA is already doing what it likes elsewhere, as Israeli/zionism isn't interested, apparently.

So we would still be left with the USA behaving just as it is now everywhere else. So, even with the 'zionism thing' sorted out, one would presume american policy in the middle east to quite quickly change to reflect the new reality. Seems reasonable to assume american policy in the middle east would revert back to its more usual "un-influenced" approach? We could expect US ME policy to reflect her policy elsewhere?

So rather than have a close relationship with Israel/zion, america might find a middle eastern Indonesia, and another E Timor? How about Turkey? Does it matter that turks are a bit different to jews, and kurds a bit different to palestinians?

I guess that's the nub of my issue with the focus on Israel/Zionism. It doesn't address the root causes at all. (IMO :)) How can it when it leaves so much else untouched, unchanged and unexplained?

But - that is just my opinion. Hell! I understand people disagree but it seems a little ingracious to suggest I must be 'an agent of ADL' - Ah well - I suppose I understand. do you really think they'd pay for me for writing this stuff? lol

 

[Mr. Premise]

The problem with what you are saying, Joe, is that people could say (and LNL does) that if Israel would not have existed without the U.S. but the U.S. could have existed without Israel, then the U.S. controls Israel. So if Israel controls the U.S. then it could exist without the U.S.'s help.

Reading this again, Joe, I disagree, with one point. Israel WOULD exist without the U.S., it would have done the same thing it did in the U.S. in whatever other country was the world hegemon.

Like when the Zionists played both sides in WWI until they realized the allied powers would win, then they concentrated on Britain.

Your point, though, which LNL missed, is that the aid is excessive and exploitative: Israel exploiting their power over the U.S.

There is no way that the U.S. as superpower would not have supported Israel (which means that the U.S. is really the client state) so there is no point in saying that Israel would not exist without the U.S.

Both WWI and WWII would have probably turned out very differently without the help of the US, and those wars were instrumental in the formation of the state of Israel. My point is that as history has evolved to today, if you removed all of the assistance given to Israel by the US over the past 60 years, Israel would not be what it is today, it would not exist. The point then can be made that Israel effectively controls America, unless of course you want to say that it is simply a case that their interests just happened to be the same during that whole time.

Joe

 

[a.saccus]

You ignore all facts that don't support your preconceived notion and the facts that you think do support your position don't support them at all. This feels exactly like the thread started by that vapiref00d guy.

Precisely.

Those working true to the spirit of this Forum observe and respect certain distinctions:

--the difference between the truth and a lie.

--the difference between statements that can be verified, and statements that either have not been verified or are incapable of verification.

--the difference between researching a question and understanding it before speaking, and just spouting an opinion off the top of one's head.

In the past week or so [and, of course, in the past], there have been several individuals who appeared on this Forum and generated quite a bit of activity.

Those individuals do not recognize the above distinctions.

To them this Forum is just a profitless game. To them, everything is a game. The game they prefer to play with words is to use them as bricks to throw at us, sticks to poke us or to press our buttons, or to beat us up with. Anything, anything at all, to distract, to annoy, or to aggravate. The purpose of such people is to waste our time and dissipate our energy. The method they use is to generate emotion, not to search for truth; because they know that once we get emotional, upset, or royally p-off, we can forget about reason, truth, or justice. Then it devolves into a matter of brute force -- and we all know who holds the force.

I know you know all this.

Perhaps I'm just saying it for myself; in which case, thank you for your indulgence.

But as the days go on, this scenario is likely to repeat itself, and with ever greater frequency and with ever increasing intensity. We need to be prepared and we need to stay calm. Knowledge Protects.

 

[Mr. Premise]

No it's not just perspective. Here's your problem: you say you are familiar with ARGUMENTS, but you are not familiar with the facts. That's why I wanted you to read the thread on opinions.

There is a difference between opinions and working hypotheses. One difference is that a good scientist does not get emotionally attached to a hypothesis (easier said than done when one has invested in a hypothesis) but one's ego is by definition, almost, invested in opinions. A hypothesis is easy to discard when contradicted by facts. With opinions one discards (or ignores) facts that contradict one's opinion.

I'm grateful for the responses - but I am familiar with much of it, and my reasoning and arguments persist. I'm left thinking about when somebody disagrees with you - about how easy it is to imagine they couldn't possibly be aware of the same facts, the same arguments that have led yourself to your own conclusion?

It's just perspective, isn't it?

 

[the_last_name_left]

Ok. Is it a FACT that Israel could exist without america, or an OPINION?

First of all, I would consider the places that have managed to survive DESPITE america - like palestine, lebanon, iraq - maybe. Nicaragua, el salvador, e Timor, vietnam, chile etc..... So even places in opposition to america can survive, sometimes. Cuba? Why is it so clear Israel couldn't survive without USA?

Regardless, the argument was put that Israel being unable to survive without US was prima facie evidence of Israel controlling American policy.

An analogy: somebody crippled in a hospital bed controls the intensive care staff because he relies upon them for existence?

In any other analogy, it would be ridiculous to suggest such a thing?

Another one - Why should the dog control the master because the master feeds the dog?

So I really can't accept the argument that because Israel is dependent on america, that proves israel is in control. I just see it completely the other way. Israel is dependent on USA - that means america has the upper hand?

Is it so impossible for me to see that point, WITHOUT my being an agent of the ADL?

I don't understand what is so threatening about that view? If anything I am saying it is up to americans themselves to sort out their OWN woes - looking to Israel is a cop-out. If american democracy served its people, instead of being so concerned and enraptured by the highest bidders, none of this would even be an issue?

If Israel could not survive without america, then israel is definitely not the issue. Indonesia coulnd't have destroyed ETimor without american support. Saddam Hussein couldn't have attacked Iran without US support. israel couldn't attack anyone with impunity without american support etc.........

In that sense, the 'locus of evil' very definitely is not israel - but america, and its long failing 'democracy' and brutal but largely hidden imperialism. IMO that is where the effort needs to be - to show americans how destructive their policies are in ALL REALMS - not just zionist/jewish/israeli ones. Americans especially need to better understand how destructive and violent in exection their OWN political ideas are. They need to start representing themselves, and doing something different, if that is what they truly wish. If Israel/zion has subverted american democracy as much as is claimed then ultimately there is only one person responsible - america's joe public.

As has been argued by others in this thread - israel apparently does not intefere with US politics other than relevant matters to israel (ME etc), yet the USA follows similar policies with similar conditions and bodycounts across the world. The argument has been put that all that is none of Israel/zion's concern - so we are left with some other explanation. That all the other dreadful stuff perpetrated by america is "what the public want"? If the public doesn't get what it wants in Israel + ME because of zionism, then why doesn't it get what it wants elsewhere? Who or what is preventing it elsewhere? Or do they get what they want elsewhere?

imagine the Israel/zionist issue perfectly resolved to one's satisfaction. Why would american policy change elsewhere in the world, and how would it change? How would the lobbying effects of special interest groups, or the military-industrial-pharmacological complex whatever differ to now?

If Israel/zionism only has influence over american ME policy, then how will resolving that single issue transform the behaviour of the USA elsewhere in the world? How and why would it do that?

How would it effect venezuelan relations for instance? How would it have effected Indonesia with regard to E timor? It wouldn't make any difference, would it?

From such a perspective, it makes no sense to say Israel is the biggest bully in the yard, as anders suggested. He suggested that was the reasoning behind having "a timeline of *zionist* terror".

But clearly the zionist/israeli angle is not that comprehensive an explanation - as it leaves (similar) american policy elsewhere in the world untouched, and unexplained.

And if Israel *CANNOT* survive without america - then self-evidently it's not Israel/zionism that is KEY?

Hence my initial question.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Last name, I think you're missing the point. The study of ponerology tells us a number of things, including the following: pathocracy (when psychopaths become leaders) is a sufficient (and necessary?) condition for policies of genocide/torture/totalitarianism/etc. But as with individuals within the pathocracy, there is ALWAYS in-fighting and power struggles, and there is always a leader at the top of the pyramidal hierarchy. The Israeli leaders in the 'world pathocracy' ARE THE ONES AT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN. Sure, America is ruled by a gang of criminals, but like the hired-hand thugs of common street gangs and mafiosos, there is always someone controlling them. If you take the time to read Doug Reed's book, you will see MANY historical precedents of Israeli/Jewish control of American politicians. Pay particular attention to the influence Supreme Court Justice Brandeis, Rabbi Wise, and the immense influence Chaim Weizmann had over a whole line of world leaders, for just a few. If you want historical precedents (which you seem to have fixated on - we're living the precedent!) you MUST read this book. That is, if you are really interested in learning.

 

[arkmod]

Ok. Is it a FACT that Israel could exist without america, or an OPINION?

It is a well documented fact. You just refuse to study the documents.

Is it so impossible for me to see that point, WITHOUT my being an agent of the ADL?

The fact that you refuse to study the documents and to understand the arguments suggests that you indeed may be an agent of ADL or a similar agency. Another possibility (that does not exclude the first one) is that you are lazy and/or unable to think.
Many people are like that.

Finally, if you want to discuss Indonesia, because you are not able to study the history of Zionism, psychopathy and pathocracy, then you should find another forum, one that is particularly devoted to the Indonesian issues.