Bumping this thread.
One of the highlights from the article that Ennio posted is about gold and silver IMO. Many people say: "Yes, but you can't eat them". However, the writer explains how useful G&S were in post-collapse Argentina where people had to deal with a lot of violence:
Silver And Gold: I placed precious metals in the middle of this list for a reason. Concerns in a collapse situation will be varied, and the manner in which a derailment progresses will also determine the order of needs in a barter community. In a Mad Max scenario where there is little to no community, or the construction of any semblance of economy is impossible; sure, gold and silver will not be very high on most people’s lists. Has this ever happened in recorded history? No. Gold and silver have remained common currencies for thousands of years despite any catastrophe. This is why I have to laugh at those people who undercut precious metals or claim that because you “can’t eat them” they will not be important. In Argentina, in the midst of complete meltdown and monetary chaos, when people were shooting each other in the streets for food on a daily basis, gold and silver became king, and still are.
Barter networks that have formed in Argentina love to trade for anything made out of gold or silver, because precious metals are the only tangible form of currency in existence there. Being able to trade goods is fantastic, but sometimes, you may not have what another person wants. Do you go out to find someone who does, trade with them, then, try to find the guy who turned you down? No. If you have any meaningful localized commerce in place, then you should also have a common medium of exchange, and precious metals are the only thing that safely fits the mold, because they cannot be artificially reproduced or fabricated. Their rarity and their longevity make them the perfect method of common trade. Even if the worst of the worst occurs, rebuilding will result in the immediate resurgence of trade, and the immediate need of a new currency. Gold and silver will come back, as it always has, and always will. Every potential barter network should be including gold, silver, and maybe copper, on its list of accepted alternative currencies, and the values of said metals should be weighed by the inherent supply and demand of the community. The “official” market value ( which is very manipulated) should only be used as a loose guide.
I have also been pondering the topic of self-defense and personally, I need to brush up on my conflict-resolution/mediation skills if applicable, as I can't see myself wield some sort of weapon.
Perhaps that is another skill that could be taught to others? BTW, developing several skills could really be helpful to find a way forward as per the article.
Another thing that could come in handy is duct tape. One of the prepping experts mentioned putting crosses of tape on your windows as it could help you be more safe if someone wants to break into your home by throwing a brick through your window. I don't know whether the expert actually tested it, but I saw the same thing in a series called
Home Fires which follows the happenings in a small village in England just before WWII and in the beginning of the war. All windows are covered that way, including phone booths (@12.35):
I really enjoyed the series despite it being woke. It is based on the
book Jambusters by Julie Summers and describes the work of Women's Institutes all over England and the role they played in order to help fellow Brits during the war.
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Thank you very much Gwenllian for refloating this thread, and Ennio for starting it.
I didn't know about it and it is very interesting.
I would like to share a little about what I have been able to observe and experience in relation to barter.
Here in Uruguay, everything that happens in Argentina has direct repercussions, even many things we live together as one people.
Approximately in the year 2000, things started to get complicated and, when we reached 2002, it was frightening.
In fact, here we refer to it as “the crisis of 2002”.
We are still living the aftermath, especially in terms of the social structure, which deteriorated enormously.
But if I start talking about the hunger that many of us went through at that time, the exacerbated violence that criminals adopted, attacking the people in their own neighborhoods, etc., I could write several books and that is not the idea.
I just wanted to give you a small notion of the atmosphere in those days, because it is in that scenario when an organized barter system appeared, which was already working in Argentina, and quite well according to the man who was one of those who was organizing it here.
Meetings were held where this man explained the whole thing. Some of those meetings were at my brother's house, so I attended and that's how I found out what this movement was all about.
I remember the great enthusiasm we had, because things were extremely interesting.
Among other things, there were "barter fairs", and I even participated in some of them.
These fairs were held in roofed and spacious places, usually in a school gymnasium.
There you could set up your little stall, with the objects you wanted to sell, or exchange them for something else that was offered and that at that moment could be more useful to you.
You also had the possibility of selling, buying, paying or receiving some difference when the value of the objects to be exchanged was too different and both parties agreed on it.
For this, instead of money, small pieces of paper called "credits" were used.
The barter network itself printed these papers, which were very rudimentary.
There were small pieces of paper with different values and, for practicality, they used the same variety and the same figures that existed in real money. It worked!
In addition, for people with a greater interest in this system, there was a large list of people offering their services.
Gardeners, nurses, dentists, bricklayers, lawyers, bicycle repairmen, you name it.
For the people in this network, the system for meeting needs was very broad.
The exchange of services was VERY!
interesting and promising.
I'll give you an example, just to give you an idea:
A bricklayer offering his services, who is logically registered on that list, if he has a toothache, may be treated by a dentist who is also on that list offering his services.
The dentist can receive his fees in several ways.
One way is that the mason pays him the amount directly with the credits/papelitos.
Another way, because the mason may not have those credits at that moment, is that the information of the effort made by the dentist can be registered in the network, with the corresponding figure.
I don't remember the details exactly, because this is where the range of possibilities expands.
If I'm not mistaken, in this case I believe the dentist can receive the credits/papers directly from the network, if he/she so chooses (there are administrators who can print the credits/papers in case they are needed, etc.).
Or, if the dentist wants, he can leave in the network that balance in his favor, which he can then use to pay for any service he needs.
And of course, a lot of combinations of the mentioned ways also took place.
For the mason, who in this case received the services of the dentist and has not yet paid, there will always be someone in the network who needs the services of a mason, where the mason will have the opportunity to repay the service he received from the dentist. For the information is in the network, and it flows among its members.
In fact, in this way, if any member of the network behaves dishonestly, he or she is easily detected.
Good faith, combined with the great creativity of the people when it comes to combining to solve such a diversity of needs, are characteristic and fundamental factors in this barter system.
Perhaps that is what is most transcendent, or what I would highlight as the essential bases of this system.
Having said that, I must clarify that this system could not be applied in its totality, because we are immersed in an already existing system, where we need real money to supply ourselves with a lot of things.
Running water, electricity, fuel, paying taxes, buying raw materials for whatever you manufacture, etc., etc., etc.
Obviously in the world as we know it, with its established market rules and so on, this barter network can only operate within the natural limits of circumstances.
For the time being, real money cannot be dispensed with altogether.
Therefore, what the members of this network do is a kind of combination of systems.
For example, an auto mechanic who offers his services in the barter network, does not stop offering his services to the general public, where he is paid with real money.
In addition, in case you are going to work on the car of a member of the network, the cost of spare parts or any input in which real money is needed, is borne by the owner of the car. This is generally the case, but it depends on each individual case.
Even if both parties agree, there is no reason why labor should have to be paid for entirely with network credits. One part of that amount can be with credits and the other part with real money.
If this barter network were rigid in that sense, it would not have lasted a single day.
At least at that time, as far as I knew, this was in the hands of people with their feet on the ground, who did not spend their energy uselessly, trying to isolate themselves from the society in which they live.
Quite the contrary, as this improves the social connection, makes it of higher quality.
In case it would be possible to move from one system to another, it would in any case be a gradual process, and these people were aware of it.
This reminds me of the unconsciousness of those who tried to supply all of Spain with renewable energy, without respecting due process. They did not combine the systems they had to combine and, instead, combined anxiety with arrogance. And that combination wreaks havoc.
One of the highlights from the article that Ennio posted is about gold and silver IMO. Many people say: "Yes, but you can't eat them". However, the writer explains how useful G&S were in post-collapse Argentina where people had to deal with a lot of violence:
On this point I would like to share some thoughts. For that, I want to tell you something that happened in the “barter fairs” I mentioned before, at least in the ones I was in.
As I said before, those times were tough.
You didn't need to be homeless to really feel hungry.
Any ordinary working man, used to working and unwilling to go out and steal, felt hungry in those times.
Now think about the fact that these “barter fairs” were in those times.
Earlier I mentioned that in these fairs people set up their stalls with the objects they wanted to sell or barter. But what I didn't mention before was that some of these stalls were for food - FOOD!
You might be thinking that these stalls were the most successful.
Well, that was true, but not extremely or as one would assume.
That fact was strange to me at first, but then I understood what was going on.
It turns out that almost all of these little food stands were of, for example, pizzas, pies, sweet or savory pastries, empanadas, milanesas, etc. That is to say, all products made at home and by the people themselves. All delicious and of good quality, by the way.
Well, as in any product, the cost of the raw material, in this case the ingredients, added to the elaboration work, is reflected in its price.
While there were people who, when they got some “credit/papelito” for having just sold a bicycle or whatever, and immediately went to the food stalls and bought some of those delicacies, that was not the pattern, not even close to being the pattern.
The pattern was as follows:
People strolled through the fair, chatted, bartered from time to time, all at a very slow and leisurely pace.
Of course, at the beginning of each fair, in the first hour or so, there was much more movement, but once people knew everything that was in the stands, that calm and leisurely pace that I mentioned was installed.
Now comes the fun part and, the main fact I wanted to get to.
This slow and calm rhythm, stable for almost the entire duration of the fair, is interrupted in an impressive way for a few minutes. The first time I saw it, I was shocked.
I remember it more or less like this:
The fair was running at a calm and normal pace. Suddenly, a bunch of people were running towards the entrance gate.
There were people running all over the place, but the place where they were all piling up was at the gate.
I didn't understand what was going on.
This madness lasted only a few minutes, I even have the feeling that it was only seconds.
Soon the crowd of people dissipated, then I knew what it was all about.
It turns out that some guys had arrived with crates of fruits and vegetables, and people were waiting for them to arrive!
These guys, who I guess were producers or at least tending a quinta, didn't even have to set up their stall. They sold everything at the front door.
After that the rhythm returned to normal, until later, maybe an hour later, the exact same event repeated itself. And this happened every time - THAT WAS THE PATTERN! at every fair.
People could not afford to buy ready-made food, and their hopes were pinned on produce that came directly from the fields.
This is just a few examples of what I have seen in times of crisis.
Therefore, I fully understand those who, when talking about an eventual collapse, put food in the first place of general interest.
In a certain sense, I agree.
But that depends on which part of the scenario we are analyzing.
If we are talking about the items or products that would have the greatest movement among people, in critical times, logically these would be the most basic and indispensable. And in a list of basic items, perhaps I would start with food, firewood, warm clothes and so on down the priority level.
At this moment it occurs to me that perhaps for the great merchants, the scale of value that they will attribute to the products they commercialize, will have a direct relation with the real needs of the people.
That is to say, the scale of lucrative value that the great merchants will manage, will coincide quite closely with the order of priorities of the people (I am only speculating).
That would be a change, since in the modern society in which we live, are other parameters and considerations to measure the commercial value of products.
Today's commerce has much more to do with people's desires than with real needs, in my opinion.
That's a fascinating topic to discuss but I don't want to beat around the bush, so I'll go back to the barter issue.
As I was saying, it depends on what part or what aspect we are analyzing of a given scenario, which in this case is that of a collapse.
If the conversation consists of mentioning things that people will need to stay alive in these circumstances, that they are simply the same things that are needed in normal times, and that the differences would only be marked by a greater and necessary rigor in terms of priorities, ultimately, we would be talking about what our physical bodies need. And obviously we don't eat gold, silver or copper, just as we don't eat banknotes. In that case then, it makes sense to say <<Yes, but you can't eat it>>.
And I'm not talking about the accuracy or inaccuracy of that phrase. I'm just referring to the fact that that phrase has its place because of the nature of that discussion and, in that discussion.
However, if the discussion is not centered solely on what our bodies need, and were a discussion that encompasses other matters that are also needs, such as how we manage ourselves, how we trade, how we get what we need to consume, etc., then it would be out of place to say <<Yes, but you can't eat>>. It would be meaningless, as the discussion is of another order or of another nature.
What Ennio shared at the beginning of this thread, I found super interesting and very useful.
Beyond some details, such as the mention of certain foods that we now know are not recommended, or the suggestion of solar panels and the like, where I thought there was little research on the subject, despite everything, I found the article very enlightening and has good points.
Many things that the author has said, I have seen and lived them directly. So in a way I am testifying to that.
For example, in this article the author talks about the need for something to serve as a barter currency, even in a barter system.
And that, for people who have embarked on these bartering ventures, is an established fact and not an assumption.
And, if that happens in small barter communities, such as the one I have described for example, then imagine what it would be like in a financial collapse on a global scale.
Personally, I also agree that gold, silver, copper, are appropriate elements for that function.
I have a little anecdote with respect to copper, which may have some relation to that. Maybe not, but it seems to me that it does.
In those times of crisis, one thing that always worked for me to be able to eat, was to disassemble disused electric motors, remove the copper from them and sell it in the junkyard.
For a while I even dedicated myself specifically to that.
I had an agreement with the owner of one of these junkyards and it was as follows:
From the scrap mountain, I would set aside the engines and take them home, where I would do the work of disassembling and removing the copper.
Then I would return the engines to the scrap mountain all disassembled, but without the copper. The copper obtained, the guy paid me at the normal price. That is to say, he did not pay me less than the established value, even though I took the copper from the scrap that already belonged to him.
The explanation of why the business was good for both of us is simple:
The guy buys scrap at retail, paying for it as such (very little money).
When he manages to have a mountain, many tons, he sells it to a huge smelting company, where, although they pay him a better price than he paid for it, it is still a scrap price.
We must bear in mind that the smelting company is dedicated to recovering iron and smelts it all together indiscriminately. And that process consists of separating the Iron from everything else. Everything they take away from the iron is slag. Therefore, any copper that may be in the scrap is trash as is everything else that is not Iron.
However, clean Copper is worth a lot of money and the owners of scrap yards, who also buy clean metals, sell the Copper to other people.
They sell it to people who take it to Brazil (In Brazil there is a lot of industrial activity, so they use a lot of Copper).
Well, so much for the anecdote, which seems to me to reflect quite well the importance of copper for human beings. It is a kind of treasure.
At least nowadays, Copper is present in our lives even if we do not realize it.
For example, although we do not see Copper in an object made entirely of plastic, Copper is present in the machinery that was used to manufacture it, in the cables through which electric energy traveled, etc.
And so on with almost everything we manufacture and with all human activity that does not stop for lack of sunlight.
Thank you for the patience you had to read this so long, I apologize for that.
Thank you all.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
