"Total Celibacy"- what does it mean?

Risen

Jedi Council Member
Laura said:
"Then the other question—'Is sexual abstinence useful for the work or not?'
Gurdjieff said:
"It is useful if there is abstinence in all centers. If there is abstinence in one center and full liberty of imagination in the others, then there could be nothing worse. And still more, abstinence can be useful if a man knows what to do with the energy which he saves in this way. If he does not know what to do with it, nothing whatever can be gained by abstinence."

So, from this quote I understand that abstinence from sexual relations does not equate total celibacy. Can anyone give a detailed definition of what may be "total celibacy? I know people who claim to be celibate who engage in self stimulation with fantasy and I always thought that this was somehow "cheating" and deluding the self. I think that the reason for abstinence is important . If one is celibate because of repression. fear, etc it should not be called celibacy. IMHO.

I would appreciate some thoughts on this if anyone is willing as I am somewhat confused about it and would benefit by your input. I don't think this has been discussed in detail elsewhere on the forum but if it has, please forgive me and kindly direct me there.
 
My take on G's description of total celibacy is that he is referring to the energy from the sexual center being used, or stolen, by the other centers i.e. motor, emotional, or intellectual. You aren't saving the energy from the sexual center if it is being re-appropriated by the other centers and misused. G's quote about "knowing what to do with it" speaks to that, and wasting it by allowing the other centers to steal is not that different from sex itself IMO.
 
opossum said:
Laura said:
"Then the other question—'Is sexual abstinence useful for the work or not?'
Gurdjieff said:
"It is useful if there is abstinence in all centers. If there is abstinence in one center and full liberty of imagination in the others, then there could be nothing worse. And still more, abstinence can be useful if a man knows what to do with the energy which he saves in this way. If he does not know what to do with it, nothing whatever can be gained by abstinence."

So, from this quote I understand that abstinence from sexual relations does not equate total celibacy.

No, the two terms do not appear to be synonymous. However, if one is abstaining, in G's terms, one is definitely celibate.

opossum said:
Can anyone give a detailed definition of what may be "total celibacy?

I think the dictionary definition of celibacy is sufficient because it appears the word was simply intended to point to lack of sex with a partner.

opossum said:
I know people who claim to be celibate who engage in self stimulation with fantasy and I always thought that this was somehow "cheating" and deluding the self.

Why? Celibacy is not a broader term than abstinence, from what I see.

opossum said:
I think that the reason for abstinence is important .

It may be, but it is apparently not for everyone.


opossum said:
If one is celibate because of repression. fear, etc it should not be called celibacy. IMHO.

Why not?
 
Bud said:
opossum said:
Laura said:
"Then the other question—'Is sexual abstinence useful for the work or not?'
Gurdjieff said:
"It is useful if there is abstinence in all centers. If there is abstinence in one center and full liberty of imagination in the others, then there could be nothing worse. And still more, abstinence can be useful if a man knows what to do with the energy which he saves in this way. If he does not know what to do with it, nothing whatever can be gained by abstinence."

So, from this quote I understand that abstinence from sexual relations does not equate total celibacy.
Also, I was wondering if this is also what the C's meant by total celibacy? When Laura asked them which sexual orientation was better for progress they replied, "total celibacy"

No, the two terms do not appear to be synonymous. However, if one is abstaining, in G's terms, one is definitely celibate.
thanks for the clarification
Bud said:
opossum said:
Can anyone give a detailed definition of what may be "total celibacy?

I think the dictionary definition of celibacy is sufficient because it appears the word was simply intended to point to lack of sex with a partner.
I guess I am confused by the term "total celibacy", how does that differ from celibacy without the word total in front of it?
Bud said:
opossum said:
I know people who claim to be celibate who engage in self stimulation with fantasy and I always thought that this was somehow "cheating" and deluding the self.

Why? Celibacy is not a broader term than abstinence, from what I see.
Again, I was confused by the word Total which I took to mean complete as opposed to occasional or incomplete and I guess I was thinking "total celibacy" must mean no sexual activity (with or without a partner).
Bud said:
opossum said:
I think that the reason for abstinence is important .

It may be, but it is apparently not for everyone.
I meant that the reason that one is abstaining is of importance to the outcome. I did not mean to say it is important to be celibate (physically).

Bud said:
opossum said:
If one is celibate because of repression. fear, etc it should not be called celibacy. IMHO.

Why not?
Well, here again, I do not understand the proper use of the term, as usual. I was thinking celibacy indicates a conscious choice as in the difference between fasting and starving. I'm not saying I am right by any means, I'm just trying to explain why I was thinking this way. If I am not eating because I have no food or I am afraid to eat, I guess technically I am fasting but I didn't intend to so the reason and perhaps result would be different. I hope this explains better what I meant.

Heimdellr said:
My take on G's description of total celibacy is that he is referring to the energy from the sexual center being used, or stolen, by the other centers i.e. motor, emotional, or intellectual. You aren't saving the energy from the sexual center if it is being re-appropriated by the other centers and misused. G's quote about "knowing what to do with it" speaks to that, and wasting it by allowing the other centers to steal is not that different from sex itself IMO.
Thanks for the clarification. I would be grateful if you or anyone would give some examples of this if possible (stealing energy).

* I guess I was more referring to this

C's From Session: 950107
Q: (L) Of all the modes of sexual expression, which one is more likely to advance one to 4th density more rapidly?
A: Total celibacy.
I took this literally. Were they meaning this more the way G did?
 
[quote author=opossum]I would be grateful if you or anyone would give some examples of this if possible (stealing energy).[/quote]

What Laura wrote here may help:

"In the first place it must be noted that normally in the sex center as well as in the higher emotional and the higher thinking centers, there is no negative side. In all the other centers except the higher ones, in the thinking, in the emotional, in the moving, in the instinctive, in all of them there are, so to speak, two halves—the positive and the negative; affirmation and negation, or 'yes' and 'no,' in the thinking center, pleasant and unpleasant sensations in the moving and instinctive centers. There is no such division in the sex center. There are no positive and negative sides in it. There are no unpleasant sensations or unpleasant feelings in it; there is either a pleasant sensation, a pleasant feeling, or there is nothing, an absence of any sensation, complete indifference.

"But in consequence of the wrong work of centers it often happens that the sex center unites with the negative part of the emotional center or with the negative part of the instinctive center. And then, stimulation of a certain kind of the sex center, or even any stimulation at all of the sex center, calls forth unpleasant feelings and unpleasant sensations. People who experience unpleasant feelings and sensations which have been evoked in them through ideas and imagination connected with sex are inclined to regard them as a great virtue or as something original; in actual fact it is simply disease. Everything connected with sex should be either pleasant or indifferent. Unpleasant feelings and sensations all come from the emotional center or the instinctive center.

"This is the 'abuse of sex.'

"It is necessary, further, to remember that the sex center works with 'hydrogen' 12. This means that it is stronger and quicker than all other centers.

"Sex, in fact, governs all other centers. The only thing in ordinary circumstances, that is, when man has neither consciousness nor will, that holds the sex center in submission is 'buffers.'

'Buffers' can entirely bring it to nought, that is, they can stop its normal manifestation. But they cannot destroy its energy. The energy remains and passes over to other centers, finding expression for itself through them; in other words, the other centers rob the sex center of the energy which it does not use itself.

"The energy of the sex center in the work of the thinking, emotional, and moving centers can be recognized by a particular 'taste,' by a particular fervor, by a vehemence which the nature of the affair concerned does not call for.

The thinking center writes books, but in making use of the energy of the sex center it does not simply occupy itself with philosophy, science, or politics—it is always fighting something, disputing, criticizing, creating new subjective theories.

The emotional center preaches Christianity, abstinence, asceticism, or the fear and horror of sin, hell, the torment of sinners, eternal fire, all this with the energy of the sex center. ... Or on the other hand it works up revolutions, robs, bums, kills, again with the same energy.

The moving center occupies itself with sport, creates various records, climbs mountains, jumps, fences, wrestles, fights, and so on.

In all these instances, that is, in the work of the thinking center as well as in the work of the emotional and the moving centers, when they work with the energy of the sex center, there is always one general characteristic and this is a certain particular vehemence and, together with it, the uselessness of the work in question.

Neither the thinking nor the emotional nor the moving centers can ever create anything useful with the energy of the sex center.

This is an example of the 'abuse of sex.'

"But this is only one aspect of it. Another aspect consists in the fact that, when the energy of the sex center is plundered by the other centers and spent on useless work, it has nothing left for itself and has to steal the energy of other centers which is much lower and coarser than its own. And yet the sex center is very .important for the general activity, and particularly for the inner growth of the organism, because, working with 'hydrogen' 12, it can receive a very fine food of impressions, such as none of the ordinary centers can receive. The fine food of impressions is very important for the manufacture of the higher 'hydrogens.' But when the sex center works with energy that is not its own, that is, with the comparatively low 'hydrogens' 48 and 24, its impressions become much coarser and it ceases to play the role in the organism which it could play.

"What must be done to struggle against the 'abuse of sex'?" asked somebody present.

G. laughed.

"I was just waiting for that question," he said. "But you already ought to understand that it is just as impossible to explain to a man who has not yet begun to work on himself and does not know the structure of the machine what the 'abuse of sex' means, as it is to say what must be done to avoid these abuses. Right work on oneself begins with the creation of a permanent center of gravity. When a permanent center of gravity has been created everything else begins to be disposed and distributed in subordination to it. The question comes to this: From what and how can a permanent center of gravity be created? And to this may be replied that only a man's attitude to the work, to school, his valuation of the work, and his realization of the mechanicalness and aimlessness of everything else can create in him a permanent center of gravity.
 
opossum said:
Bud said:
opossum said:
Laura said:
"Then the other question—'Is sexual abstinence useful for the work or not?'
Gurdjieff said:
"It is useful if there is abstinence in all centers. If there is abstinence in one center and full liberty of imagination in the others, then there could be nothing worse. And still more, abstinence can be useful if a man knows what to do with the energy which he saves in this way. If he does not know what to do with it, nothing whatever can be gained by abstinence."

So, from this quote I understand that abstinence from sexual relations does not equate total celibacy.

No, the two terms do not appear to be synonymous. However, if one is abstaining, in G's terms, one is definitely celibate.
thanks for the clarification
Bud said:
opossum said:
Can anyone give a detailed definition of what may be "total celibacy?

I think the dictionary definition of celibacy is sufficient because it appears the word was simply intended to point to lack of sex with a partner.
I guess I am confused by the term "total celibacy", how does that differ from celibacy without the word total in front of it?
Bud said:
opossum said:
I know people who claim to be celibate who engage in self stimulation with fantasy and I always thought that this was somehow "cheating" and deluding the self.

Why? Celibacy is not a broader term than abstinence, from what I see.
Again, I was confused by the word Total which I took to mean complete as opposed to occasional or incomplete and I guess I was thinking "total celibacy" must mean no sexual activity (with or without a partner).
Bud said:
opossum said:
I think that the reason for abstinence is important .

It may be, but it is apparently not for everyone.
I meant that the reason that one is abstaining is of importance to the outcome. I did not mean to say it is important to be celibate (physically).

Bud said:
opossum said:
If one is celibate because of repression. fear, etc it should not be called celibacy. IMHO.

Why not?
Well, here again, I do not understand the proper use of the term, as usual. I was thinking celibacy indicates a conscious choice as in the difference between fasting and starving. I'm not saying I am right by any means, I'm just trying to explain why I was thinking this way. If I am not eating because I have no food or I am afraid to eat, I guess technically I am fasting but I didn't intend to so the reason and perhaps result would be different. I hope this explains better what I meant.

Heimdellr said:
My take on G's description of total celibacy is that he is referring to the energy from the sexual center being used, or stolen, by the other centers i.e. motor, emotional, or intellectual. You aren't saving the energy from the sexual center if it is being re-appropriated by the other centers and misused. G's quote about "knowing what to do with it" speaks to that, and wasting it by allowing the other centers to steal is not that different from sex itself IMO.
Thanks for the clarification. I would be grateful if you or anyone would give some examples of this if possible (stealing energy).

Testosterone (sex hormone ) effects ranging from bravado to road rage could perhaps be one example?
 
I guess what I need to know is where the phrase "total celibacy" comes from? Without the context, I have to assume it means a total non-involvement with another person. (OK, I found your edit, thanks).

opossum said:
Well, here again, I do not understand the proper use of the term, as usual. I was thinking celibacy indicates a conscious choice as in the difference between fasting and starving. I'm not saying I am right by any means, I'm just trying to explain why I was thinking this way. If I am not eating because I have no food or I am afraid to eat, I guess technically I am fasting but I didn't intend to so the reason and perhaps result would be different. I hope this explains better what I meant.

Yeah, your question makes more sense now, but could this be possibly the difference between a 'too casual' use of concepts, maybe?

Strictly speaking, doing without food because you don't have any and can't get any, is not 'fasting' because one has no choice in the matter. Same with sex, as the context for the words fasting and celibacy imply choice, OSIT.


opossum said:
I would be grateful if you or anyone would give some examples of this if possible (stealing energy).

In addition to Stevie's suggestions, usurping sexual energy, in G's terms, can be done by fantasizing, working the energy out physically to try and distract oneself, powering the intellectual center with constant thoughts about sex-related subjects, looking for outlets for sexual urges, etc. OSIT.
 
[quote author=opossum]
Q: (L) Of all the modes of sexual expression, which one is more likely to advance one to 4th density more rapidly?
A: Total celibacy.

I took this literally. Were they meaning this more the way G did?[/quote]

I think the context of this was that sexual desire epitomizes self gratification in 3D.

I understood by this that sexual expression would have to be a using of sex energy in ways that would include neither physicality nor satisfaction of self.
 
Jerry said:
[quote author=opossum]I would be grateful if you or anyone would give some examples of this if possible (stealing energy).

What Laura wrote here may help:

"But you already ought to understand that it is just as impossible to explain to a man who has not yet begun to work on himself and does not know the structure of the machine what the 'abuse of sex' means, as it is to say what must be done to avoid these abuses. Right work on oneself begins with the creation of a permanent center of gravity. When a permanent center of gravity has been created everything else begins to be disposed and distributed in subordination to it. The question comes to this: From what and how can a permanent center of gravity be created? And to this may be replied that only a man's attitude to the work, to school, his valuation of the work, and his realization of the mechanicalness and aimlessness of everything else can create in him a permanent center of gravity.
[/quote]

Thank you Jerry. In other words
"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and all these other things will be added unto you"
And I thought I had begun to work on myself. :-[ But really, thank you for your reply. I think I will need to read the quote several times.
 
Sorry, I posted before reading latest replies. Yes it is making more sense now. In English it is difficult to express these concepts because of the large populations of peoples speaking slightly different dialects and using words improperly, especially me :/. Thank you for your patience.
 
I took this literally. Were they meaning this more the way G did?

G. was referring more in a way of conserving energy to be able to do work and C's said only total celibacy which could mean no sex, or no thoughts, words, acts that are referring to sex. Either way you raise your STO frequency and that means and energy if you do work, but G. was more precise saying it can be used for other things and not for work, but person who commits to work with time get's rid of STS influence and with it sex and other abuses of sex center, but with ordinary people it isn't the case.
 
dannybananny said:
... Either way you raise your STO frequency and that means and energy if you do work, but G. was more precise saying it can be used for other things and not for work...
I have read about this in other disciplines, transmutation of sexual energy. I know some artists who are celibate because they claim to be able to use the energy to be more creative in art, music, etc. I suppose it could also be used for STS purposes. But I understand what you are saying, that celibacy will come naturally when one becomes more STO. Thank you for replying.

And thank you Bud for the link, I am sure to find more information there.
 
opossum said:
dannybananny said:
... Either way you raise your STO frequency and that means and energy if you do work, but G. was more precise saying it can be used for other things and not for work...
I have read about this in other disciplines, transmutation of sexual energy. I know some artists who are celibate because they claim to be able to use the energy to be more creative in art, music, etc. I suppose it could also be used for STS purposes. But I understand what you are saying, that celibacy will come naturally when one becomes more STO. Thank you for replying.
 
Bud said:
A possibly related thread that I had forgotten about just got bumped:

Can I Graduate to 4th density through Total Celibacy?
I don't see that it is related other than the title. I was asking a legitimate question and did not in any way think that celibacy in and of itself was a shortcut to 4D. I was trying to establish exactly what the phrase meant and I think the question was answered well by the replies. I have learned a lot about both G's and the C's view on the subject . Again, thank you all for your replies.
 
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