"Total Celibacy"- what does it mean?

Approaching Infinity said:
go2 said:
Hi Stevie Argyll,

Gurdjieff said:
One must know that this divine seed, the Sperm, has another function, that of the construction of a second body in us, from whence the sentence: "Happy he who understands the function of the 'eccioeccari' for the transformation of his being. Unhappy he who uses them in a unilateral manner."

Do you understand "'Exioehary" to be directed attention? I wonder if the divine seed is allegorical?

I'd say so, considering it's associated with Hydrogen 12, which Gurdjieff lists as being a non-material "substance" (Keith Buzzell speculates it has to do with EM fields).

So, we have the divine seed or directed attention impregnating the automatic life of man or woman to create a new man or a new woman.

Gurdjieff seems to consider sexual life to be a normal physical function, on the same order as breathing, sleeping, or eating. The tendency to make
more of our sexual lives is subjective and a reflection of our self-importance. The real sex life is within the psyche of each individual, as we connect
and unify the neural pathways and electromagnetic frequencies to resonate with higher realms.

I find Keith Buzzell's Fourth Way Work very helpful, as well. Thanks, AI. :)
 
go2 said:
So, we have the divine seed or directed attention impregnating the automatic life of man or woman to create a new man or a new woman.

Gurdjieff seems to consider sexual life to be a normal physical function, on the same order as breathing, sleeping, or eating. The tendency to make
more of our sexual lives is subjective and a reflection of our self-importance. The real sex life is within the psyche of each individual, as we connect
and unify the neural pathways and electromagnetic frequencies to resonate with higher realms.

I find Keith Buzzell's Fourth Way Work very helpful, as well. Thanks, AI. :)

Just read this in William Chittick's book Science of the Cosmos, Science of the Soul:

What then is this intellect that is the fountainhead and goal of intellectual learning [i.e. knowing and not imitation]? To define it is impossible, because intellect is the very understanding that allows for definitions. It cannot be limited and confined by its own radiance. However, we can describe it in terms of its role in cosmogenesis, whereby all things are created through it. ... Although the intellect is dimly present in every soul [soul being the invisible something that all 'living' things possess, opposed to all things that are dead], human or otherwise, in human beings alone is it a seed that can sprout and be cultivated, nourished, strengthened, and fully actualized. ... [In the intellectual Islamic tradition] It was understood that intelligence is not only that which grasps and comprehends the real nature of things, but also that which gives birth to things in the first place.
 
Ailén said:
I think that when two people have grown enough, or have fused a stable magnetic center, maybe, the act of sex CAN stop being exclusively for self-satisfaction. It both partners concentrate on making each other happy/feel loved through the act itself, they gain through the act of giving with a pure intent, i.e. STO. Sex in this way is but one form of expressing love, and in such an intimate way that it can only be experienced within the couple. Then, since it would be just one expression of love
Laura talks about this in the wave, in the transcript when the cassiopaeans and the folks talk about the giving and de SAO thing.

I think that if you have a stable magnetic center, and you have learned, and you really love your partner, you just do not need sex, and even without self satisfaction, why to have it if there is no self satisfaction, unless you want to have a kid or something, but there is the insemination. So if you love your partner and your partner loves you, the two work with each other, help to each other, why the hell there is the need of sex, I don´t imagine someone having sex just because, there should be a reason, so having sex without self satisfacion is like what? eating a cake without taste?
The cass have said that to be SAO it is not about to feel instead just let it be and and let it happen, no need to change the nature of something or try to see something like you want.

My opinion about what I think I have learned.
 
cubbex said:
Laura talks about this in the wave, in the transcript when the cassiopaeans and the folks talk about the giving and de SAO thing.

I think that if you have a stable magnetic center, and you have learned, and you really love your partner, you just do not need sex, and even without self satisfaction, why to have it if there is no self satisfaction, unless you want to have a kid or something, but there is the insemination. So if you love your partner and your partner loves you, the two work with each other, help to each other, why the hell there is the need of sex, I don´t imagine someone having sex just because, there should be a reason, so having sex without self satisfacion is like what? eating a cake without taste?
The cass have said that to be SAO it is not about to feel instead just let it be and and let it happen, no need to change the nature of something or try to see something like you want.

My opinion about what I think I have learned.
If I'm getting your meaning right, I think I agree with you. All that's needed is love. I also can't imagine a reason to have sex without self satisfaction, especially for men. This could also just be because I have not experienced this higher kind of sex people speak of. I always go back to childhood and remember having no sexual thoughts or feelings whatever and feel that I had some very satisfying and close relationships with friends and that the earliest crushes, before puberty, did not include any sort of sexual thoughts or feelings but only a kind of feeling of intense friendship and bonding. Of course I may feel different if I experience a relationship with an appropriate parter.
 
cubbex said:
......so having sex without self satisfacion is like what?

opossum said:
I also can't imagine a reason to have sex without self satisfaction, especially for men.

What is the self that is satisfied? Is it your identification with the physical response? Do you experience self satisfaction with breathing,
sleeping, or eating? I do not understand the intended meaning of your post without clarification of the meaning of self satisfaction.
 
go2 said:
cubbex said:
......so having sex without self satisfacion is like what?

opossum said:
I also can't imagine a reason to have sex without self satisfaction, especially for men.

What is the self that is satisfied? Is it your identification with the physical response? Do you experience self satisfaction with breathing,
sleeping, or eating? I do not understand the intended meaning of your post without clarification of the meaning of self satisfaction.
Breathing, sleeping and eating are necessary to live. Sex is not, except it is necessary for life to begin, for procreation. I can't speak for cubbex. but my meaning was I don't understand what is the purpose for sex without procreation except for pleasure (not saying there is not one, just I personally have not experienced this kind of sex). I don't need sex to bond with or be close to another. I don't understand what you mean by identification with the physical response. Could you explain this?
 
opossum said:
go2 said:
cubbex said:
......so having sex without self satisfacion is like what?

opossum said:
I also can't imagine a reason to have sex without self satisfaction, especially for men.

What is the self that is satisfied? Is it your identification with the physical response? Do you experience self satisfaction with breathing,
sleeping, or eating? I do not understand the intended meaning of your post without clarification of the meaning of self satisfaction.
Breathing, sleeping and eating are necessary to live. Sex is not, except it is necessary for life to begin, for procreation. I can't speak for cubbex. but my meaning was I don't understand what is the purpose for sex without procreation except for pleasure (not saying there is not one, just I personally have not experienced this kind of sex). I don't need sex to bond with or be close to another. I don't understand what you mean by identification with the physical response. Could you explain this?

Hi opossum, I will try to communicate my meaning. Identification is self absorbed by the 'I' of the moment. The 'I' of the moment is my body, my opinions and beliefs, and/or my feelings. If the sense of self is absorbed by an 'I' of the moment which happens to be a sexual response or sexual sensation this would be identification with the physical response.

It seems to me, many of the dysfunctions and disappointments of sex life are rooted in the notion of self satisfaction as a motive or result of sex, whether the self satisfaction is physical pleasure and/or the self satisfaction is the construction and maintence of an egoistic self image.

Self satisfaction is all about me. It is masturbation with or without a partner. There is no respect or consideration for our sexual partner or ourselves. The feeling experience of nuture, play, and communication is the possibility of sexual relationship beyond mere pleasure.
 
go2 said:
Hi opossum, I will try to communicate my meaning. Identification is self absorption by the 'I' of the moment. The 'I' of the moment is my body, my opinions and beliefs, and/or my feelings. If the sense of self is absorbed by an 'I' of the moment which happens to be a sexual response or sensation this would be identification with the physical response.

It seems to me, many of the dysfunctions and disappointments of sex life are rooted in the notion of self satisfaction as a motive or result of sex, whether the self satisfaction is physical pleasure and/or the self satisfaction is the construction and maintence of an egoistic self image.

Self satisfaction is all about me. It is masturbation with or without a partner. There is no respect or consideration for our sexual partner or ourselves. The feeling experience of nuture, play, and communication is the possibility of sexual relationship beyond mere pleasure.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. This makes sense and I have also thought exactly this, like you, that improper reason for sexual expression and wrong feeling for the partner is masturbation in essence. This is why I am now sexually celibate and it is not difficult because I have no desire or drive. My sexuality developed at a young age, artificially induced by sexual abuse so my entire sexual ideas are deeply rooted in false personality. It may also be the reason that at this time I cannot imagine what a "real" sexual expression would be. Thanks for your perspective.
 
Stevie Argyll said:
Go2

Would piandjoehary not fit directed attention better ?

Yes, thank you SA. It seems piandjoehary is attention as focusing, differentiating, and ordering. Exioehary is aim and purpose. At least thats what I think today. I have to sweat to understand and remember all complexity of Beelzebub's Tales. :)
 
go2 said:
cubbex said:
......so having sex without self satisfacion is like what?

opossum said:
I also can't imagine a reason to have sex without self satisfaction, especially for men.

What is the self that is satisfied? Is it your identification with the physical response? Do you experience self satisfaction with breathing,
sleeping, or eating? I do not understand the intended meaning of your post without clarification of the meaning of self satisfaction.

Physical pleasure.

opossum said:
If I'm getting your meaning right, I think I agree with you. All that's needed is love. I also can't imagine a reason to have sex without self satisfaction, especially for men. This could also just be because I have not experienced this higher kind of sex people speak of. I always go back to childhood and remember having no sexual thoughts or feelings whatever and feel that I had some very satisfying and close relationships with friends and that the earliest crushes, before puberty, did not include any sort of sexual thoughts or feelings but only a kind of feeling of intense friendship and bonding. Of course I may feel different if I experience a relationship with an appropriate parter.

I remember when I was a kid too -I am young and a kid for some, I mean more young like at 4 or 5-, what good times, without these existencial problems hehehe, without that physical sexual kind of need. All was pink, no real problems and troubles in my psyche.

What I've found is that most of the girls I got to know in past even if they said they fall in love because of the boy, or his person, it was a cover for physical contact, and I remember I got confused. I never had a girlfriend with wich I had some physical contact, and I barely want to loose my time on that. When I fall in love the things everytime look so deep, and at the end the typical deception because of my proyections over the person lol. I don't know too about that high spiritual sex degree or whatever hehe hope one of this days to experience it in its proper way.

go2 said:
It seems to me, many of the dysfunctions and disappointments of sex life are rooted in the notion of self satisfaction as a motive or result of sex, whether the self satisfaction is physical pleasure and/or the self satisfaction is the construction and maintence of an egoistic self image.

Self satisfaction is all about me. It is masturbation with or without a partner. There is no respect or consideration for our sexual partner or ourselves. The feeling experience of nuture, play, and communication is the possibility of sexual relationship beyond mere pleasure.

I know what you mean, maybe because of my translation into english was the thing that make me misunderstand, and the wrong way to write it.

What I was trying to say that there are lot of couples that just maintain their relationship because of sex, or got upset in their relationship because the abssence of sex. So, if you got a real relationship, reading all the material spreading in the forum and other sources as the wave, sex will be the last thing you may think to do with your partner, if not, you are basing your relationship because of your sexual drive. But indeed, there is nothing bad as I see to have sex between partners to express their love.
 
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