Traditionally rooted rituals versus ritual "magic"

[Andrey]

Hello.

This has been on my mind as of late, and I felt like sharing my thoughts about it here and maybe get some feedback to gain better perspective. I know this place's stance on rituals, but I wanted to play devil's advocate a bit regarding the psychology behind the performance of rituals from a "western esoteric tradition" and "western magic" mentality and the psychology of rituals as performed from a traditionally rooted societal perspective.

I feel like rituals performed from a traditionally rooted societal perspective, as long as it isn't taken too seriously and done for the sake of general blessings or good luck from deity with a more or less pure intent (non anticipation) doesn't cause harm. I say this because I live in India and I've attended many hindu rituals in my life. While some of the people get overzealous with their religion and hold an intent of manifesting something concrete from the universe out of their rituals (which I think is not good), most people I've observed who do these traditionally rooted rituals aren't that emotionally attached to them and do it for the sake of family tradition and culture. These people aren't very religious about these rituals (some are which I think isn't good) and the psychology behind doing these rituals is similar to tossing a penny in the wishing well for a general and ethereal sort of good luck in life. What that looks like or making demands on how the universe should manifest this "good luck" isn't on most of these people's minds unlike western people who are into ritual magic who go into these rituals with a demanding tone.

In the grand scheme of things, maybe all rituals are bad (I personally don't hold this perspective as from my sum of experiences and personal observations I feel like rituals can be performed with little to no negative effects if the mindset and psychology behind it is leaning on the purer side of things, i.e. with little to no anticipation on how the universe manifests reality), but I think most people especially in the non western Christianized world who do these traditionally rooted rituals aren't bringing harm to themselves and if God or the Divine Cosmic Mind knows their intentions, it can either have somewhat beneficial effects or little to no effect, but I don't think it will have negative effects if the participant has pure intent which is usually the case I've noticed with many of these people. I don't think these people will be punished for performing these traditional rituals. Sure, some people will like people who are overzealous and make concrete demands, but most people I've noticed just do it either for the sake of tradition with little to no attachment to any spiritual implications or do it for the sake of general good luck.

This kind of psychology and perspective is vastly different from Western Christianized mindset who get into ritual magic and look at ritual simply as a means of getting what they want from the universe. This I agree can have detrimental effects on the participants. Though even among these I think if the intent is on the purer side of things, maybe there won't be too much negative side effects, especially rituals of a more celebratory nature or adoration of deities and things like that.

Anyways this is my current opinion on the matter. I know it differs from the general stance on rituals this forum has, but I've seen many posts on this forum talking about rituals in a positive light and some articles on shamanic rituals on SOTT that make me think that maybe this stance is not so rigid. I agree that for channeling the C's and gaining knowledge any sort of ritual would have been completely inappropriate, and overly religious people who go into ceremonies and rituals with wrong intentions may bring harm upon themselves, but as mentioned above I think if the intentions are more or less okay and non-anticipatory, there isn't a hard and fast rule where "any kind of ritual = bad", no matter the intentions.

I made this post, because my family recently did a sort of temple inauguration and there were rituals involved. It was mostly my dad's idea, but he isn't religious in any sense of the word. Just wanted to do it for the sake of family tradition. Our house is over 300 years old, and the courtyard/temple area where they used to do rituals and ceremonies was damaged beyond repair for well over 30-40 years and nothing ever happened there, so my dad reconstructed the whole area and we recently held an inauguration celebrating the rebuilding of this temple/courtyard area and many people from the community came and celebrated with us. Again, I know my dad's intentions behind this was mostly for the sake of family and tradition and not really that spiritual or religious, though I'm sure he did the rituals with hopes for a better life in the future in a non anticipatory manner.

Since the inauguration, I've been thinking about this issue of rituals and these are the things that have been running through my mind. Just wanted to share my thoughts here. What do you guys think?

Thanks for reading.

 

[nicklebleu]

I don't think these people will be punished for performing these traditional rituals.

I don’t think the issue with rituals is that you might be punished, by whomever. I think it is indicative of a certain mindset, as you have correctly described. The problem is, again as you have pointed out, the mindset which accompanies the ritual, or in other words, the intent. You say that ‘pure intent’ behind the rituals performed would prevent negative effects from manifesting, which may well be the case.

The issue is maybe a subtle one: Is it possible to perform a ritual with ‘pure intent’, or does a part of you (unconsciously?) still subscribe to it having some positive effects on your life?

 

[Wandering Star]

It's actually very simple.

Constriction and constriction relief.

STS and STO.

One does things one way and another another.

Your election will...

(...)

Session 8 July 1995​

Q: (L) Well, this article I was reading said that different people used several techniques where they think it has helped them to halt or avoid abduction by "aliens." One is to generate an "internal" sound, a high-pitched "thought hum," and another is to invoke angelic spirits such as the Archangel Michael, and another is to "Just Say No," and these people think they have avoided being abducted thereby. Are any of these usable techniques?

A: Potpourri.

Q: (T) Sweet smelling dried flowers are potpourri.

A: Sage, salt, ooohm, any other rituals you like?

Q: (L) In other words, nothing works? (T) It's not going to stop them! I keep a heavy shield around the house and all that stuff and they still get through!

A: How about the hula hoop dance with green peppers stuck up your nose! [Hilarious laughter]

 

[Andrey]

The issue is maybe a subtle one: Is it possible to perform a ritual with ‘pure intent’, or does a part of you (unconsciously?) still subscribe to it having some positive effects on your life?

Well I think when it's a regular part of your religion, you don't really put too much stake in it. It's just another part of life, and the emphasis is mostly on preserving tradition and culture rather than viewing it in a spiritual point of view. Most people in general aren't very spiritual or religious, but sort of just take part in the host religion of the society they live in mostly because they have to but aren't that emotionally invested in them spiritually (again, some are but I'm not talking about those people). In this sense when they take part in things like rituals, I don't feel like they are bringing too much negative effects upon themselves. Maybe they are though I don't know.

I think this would be a good question to ask the C's, as I think it's a complex issue. Normal people who are not spiritual seekers in any shape or form taking part in rituals for the sake of preserving tradition and culture vs. true spiritual seekers enacting rituals as part of their spiritual path. Does intent and psychology make ANY difference here? Or is their energetic backlash no matter what? And if there is, isn't it somewhat unfair to the people who take part in these rituals with no emotional or spiritual stake in it?

 

[Wandering Star]

In this sense when they take part in things like rituals, I don't feel like they are bringing too much negative effects upon themselves

From time to time, I have had to attend a Christian mass for a wedding or funeral, etc.

The priest is the one who orders you to stand up, sit down, and repeat certain phrases, which no one in the room understands.

It is simply terrible.

When the priest orders you to stand up, I remain seated and of course I do not repeat any of the mantras ordered by the priest.

It is difficult, since people immediately start to hate you.

However, if it is okay for you, no problem, it is your decision.

 

[seek10]

This is how I look at it @Andrey . In this case, your father thought it is his duty to renovate as a family head responsible for tradition and he did it. It might have given satisfaction of doing his duty or satisfying some body's request of the family members etc.

Imitation is part of any society, whether it is related to god or material side of life. All imitation are not same. Religious imitations has added dimension of the risk if it goes to occult side (East or West of the planet) if it is used that way.

Whether it works or not, who responds to the request and how it manifests depends on MANY factors - Conscious and unconscious Intent, experiential soul needs and people involved etc.

Q: (L) We would like to know a bit more on the subject of rituals, which you have warned us are restricting on many levels. Why is this?

A: If one believes in one's activities sincerely, to the greatest extent, they certainly will produce SOME benefit, at SOME level. But, merely following patterns for the sake of following patterns, does not produce sincerity and faith necessary for ultimate benefits to result. So, therefore, as always, one must search from within, rather than from without, to answer that question. Do you understand? To give you an example, to be certain, you meet this all the time. If you read material in the pages of a book that advises one form of ritual or another, and you follow that form of ritual because you have read words printed on the pages, does that really give you the true sense of satisfaction and accomplishment within yourself to the greatest extent possible? Whereas, if you, yourself, were to develop an activity which one or another could interpret or define as a ritual, but it comes from within you, it feels RIGHT to you, and you have a sincere and complete faith in it, whatever it may be, does that feel right to you?

This is up to your father to contemplate, evaluate pro's and con's. You can discuss with him in open sense, if he is open to it. Else, ignore it. For example, if my father wants to go to a temple or on a religious tour, I would say 'Go ahead'. If I obstruct him for my belief, I am influencing his free will and only brew resentment. If it is a "occult" type, we are talking about completely something else and probably I would talk to him seriously for the sake of others in the family.

Each society has their own programs and it looks to me that 'ritual' happens to be India's program at this time. See how many Indian politicians clabber for religious functions though most of Hindus has no qualm adopting god of any religion(leaving aside Muslims). How many Indian politicians give a dime for the "God" (even if one is Brahmin), if there is no inclination from people?

I was looking for the historical origins of this ritual habit in India. After reading Gypsies are migrants out of India in 2 batches (one around 700 AD and later around 1100 AD), I wondered about common habits (like endogamy and group cohesiveness etc. ) and origins.

(seek10) The C’s mentioned gypsies are gene spliced with an alien race, humanoid and Atlantean drone workers. Did this happen in the Indus Valley civilization region and period?

A: No, it was much earlier. Refugees migrated there.

C's seems to say it is much earlier. I thought it is before 5000 BC (approx.) when Lizards created Mohenjo-Daro for their "followers". I suspect that it is during Atlantis (up to 8500 BCE) period given that Atlantean are into seriously genetic modifications (Cayce material).

But, I don't think all Gypsie (a negligibly small nomadic, music loving tribe from North West area) characteristics are in Indians. For example If Indians go out of the country, they tend to merge with every body else, which is not the case with Gypsies. I think these endogamy thing is societal adaptation measures after 540 AD comet impact. We can't even find the trace of it in Indian history as all the writings are in intellectual class hand and they only wrote in religious format (puranas etc.) and Buddhism (once dominant) disappeared from the country.

Q: (seek10) If the Indus Valley civilization peoples are into genetic modification, is the current Indian tendency for rituals the remnant of it through the Dravidian lineage?

A: Yes, but see previous answer also.

There are few thought processes (based on data) going behind the questions when I meant 'Dravidian lineage'.

• If one look at the history of the nation from Indologists version (LOT of holes in it, but easy to make my point for now), in approx. dates, HIGHLY SIMPLIFIED sense in the north)
  • Aryans came around 1600 BCE with Vedas in Sanskrit ->
  • Vedic Janapadas (up to 600 BCE) ->
  • Buddha and Mauryan period ( 500 BCE - 150 BCE) ->
  • "supposed" Hindu period including Gupta period ( 150 BCE - 400 BCE)
  • All the central Asian invasions until 1000 AD etc.
  • After wards its Muslims settled by 1200 AD and the story goes on until British came officially became Crown in 1857. that lasted less than 100 years. Most of the Indian history is written in this period.
• Most of the Indians has Aryan genes with 80% in the north upper caste people fizzles out to 20% down to south. It is the same Aryans migrated all over the world, but they didn't have this strong belief in god that is often reflected in 'ritual' (Idol worship).
  • So It has to be from locals (aka Dravidians)
• Many of the Puranas (Which is current version of Hinduism) are "supposedly" written around 200BCE - 500 AD by Brahmins. But, It is south Indian Shankaracharya (who lived only for 30 odd years), who defeated many Buddhist theologians in his travels from south to North that kept lights on Hinduism (called "Bhakti Movement") around 800 AD. All sorts of complex "synthesis" happened through out history (but let's keep that aside for this discussion).

It looks to me that there is a "ritual" program exist in India goes long back (before 5000 BCE and probably much earlier to Atlantean period). It is the same program that West "imported" to create their own "experience" driven "New Age" for their own control purposes.

Interestingly, C's said Veda's were written by descendants of Paranthas (aka Dravidians) under "divine guidance". It didn't made sense for a long time in the context of Main stream Indian history.

• Main stream says Vedas were created in 2nd millennium BC, but C's recently confirmed Vedveer Arya hypothesis that Vedas started around 16,000 BCE in transit.
• Vedas has many elements related to North Indian/Himalayan disaster events like disappearance of Saraswathi rivers, melting of Kashmiri ice lakes etc. C's also said Most of Vedas were written in Indian subcontinent. So they were written at a time when younger dryas event happened or giant comet disintegration creating mess and the world was in chaos that necessitated for help that easily becomes 'ritual'.
• Post Vedic commentaries (aka Brahmanas and Aranyakas etc.) and host of methods of Vedic astrology popped up. Obvious opposition in the form of Upanishads and conflicting theologies and later sramantic religions( Buddhism and Jainism) and long period of reconciliations.
• Around 3000 BCE, Cometary Venus (with similar size of earth) started settling down between earth and Mercury creating all its hell forcing observers to overlap Vedic observations to Venus (aka Vishnu) to create all 'his Avatars' and perpetuate the same.

How it Indian experience turned out be different?

In this higher density game of STS controllers messing with our minds with their "genetic tweaks" (Aryans has their own genetic tweak) vs rocks/comets that get "redirected", we are only mere humans that chose to be born for own experiential needs on the planet. For "obvious" reason, these cometary dynamics are wiped out from history (including Alexandrian library). Rome has their own "good" times, before all ended in dark ages (from 540 AD comet) before they restarted with renaissance (around 1300 AD) and world conquest(1500AD onwards) in the name of trade routes.

You may want to see this thread. Cassiopaean Chronology/Cosmology for more details I am trying to mention.

 

[Andrey]

From time to time, I have had to attend a Christian mass for a wedding or funeral, etc.

The priest is the one who orders you to stand up, sit down, and repeat certain phrases, which no one in the room understands.

It is simply terrible.

When the priest orders you to stand up, I remain seated and of course I do not repeat any of the mantras ordered by the priest.

It is difficult, since people immediately start to hate you.

However, if it is okay for you, no problem, it is your decision.

Well it's just that I've been in front of so many rituals in my lifetime, and it doesn't phase me much. I'm used to it, and I guess I perceive it a certain way where I'm pretty sure it isn't affecting me in any way. I guess my reality tunnel has constructed some kind of psychic defense where I don't really believe in it, and look at it the same way one would a theater performance that is amusing to witness and take a part in. It is an artform that I appreciate from an armchair perspective but don't really let it get to some point where I believe anything is really happening with me and I think it works well. Knowledge and awareness is protecting me from letting a ritual affect me even when I'm having to play a part in it. And when I do decide to take part in it out of consideration for family and community I do it in a lighthearted manner and consciously don't identify with the idea that I'm doing anything substantial. As mentioned earlier, only "spiritual" idea I have when I'm doing these rituals is similar to tossing a penny in the wishing well for good luck in life while simultaneously viewing it as a mere theater art enacting the poetry of the gods. That's my perspective on it and I think it's close to that perspective for many people who do it because it's merely a part of their community and they aren't really spiritual seekers of any kind, just do it out of social considerations and not analyzing the spiritual/metaphysical technicalities of it let alone even be aware that those things exist. That is a psychic defense in itself in my opinion from any ritual that may try to cause harm in any way. What do you guys think?

 

[Laura]

I tend to think that rituals that are 'made up from within', that have elements with meaning, that are meant to send a signal to the Universe about the state of the supplicant, are probably beneficial. And that may apply to old rituals that were made up a long time ago and have now become 'rigid' only if the participants are aware of the true symbolism and resonate with that intention.

I don't think doing rituals with no knowledge or awareness, just performing something by rote, maybe thinking that it will obtain something for the performer (such as salvation, or more), are healthy.

 

[Wandering Star]

Without rituals, the C's said many times.

And a ritual is a ritual.

 

[Wandering Star]

A few samples:

October 5, 1994 Frank and Laura

Q: Hello.

A: You are good to do it this way without ritual.

Q: (L) What ritual do you want us to do?

A: None.

Q: (L) Does ritual enhance or prevent communication?

A: Constricts.

October 28, 1994

Q: (L) Alexandra David Neel quoted a lama who said we must beware of the children of our own minds as well as the children of the minds of others, such as thought forms perhaps created by higher negative beings. If we do not acknowledge that such things exist, are we then subject to being devoured by them?

A: Ritual drains directly to Lizard beings.

Q: (L) Even our saying of the Lord's prayer?

A: It is okay to pray. Why do you think organized religion is obsessed with rituals?

Q: (L) Is the same thing true of shamanistic practices and so forth?

A: Exactly.

December 23, 1994

Q: Hello.

A: No ritual.

Q: (D) Explain, please?

A: No ritual.

Q: (F) Did somebody do a ritual? (L) No. Did you do one in your mind, DM? (D) I just rubbed my hands together. (L) No, I don't think that is what they are talking about. It's because we were talking about rituals and why we don't do them. Okay, why did you tell us "no ritual?"

A: DM. Caution.

Q: Tell DM, please, why we don't do rituals.

A: Rituals constrict. Who are we?



January 21, 1995

(D) Down at the church they gave me a list of prayers and symbols to use in a ritual where I would say a prayer while I had my hand on a symbol and the purpose of this...

A: Rituals restrict

Q: (D) So, in other words, that did not connect my DNA chains. Right?

A: Nonsense!

Q: (D) Okay, well that's what I thought, but I went ahead and did it because I didn't want to pass up an opportunity!

A: Stop!

Q: (T) Stop rituals. They don't approve of any rituals, it blocks the flow, it restricts. (D) That's fine, I won't do it any more. (L) Pure universal knowledge includes everything, and if you establish a ritual, that means you are adhering to one line of thought, one mode of thinking, one idea structure, and, excluding all others. (D) Was that in the thing, did I miss that? (T) In different words, it's in there several times. (L) You may not have gotten it, you only have part of the transcripts, you only have about 100 pages. (D) I got up to file 3, page 41. (L) You don't have a whole lot of it. You're probably missing parts of it. (T) You really have to read through it many times. (D) I don't want to look like a pseudo- intellect... (J) You're trying to understand.

A: Nonsense!


May 20, 1995

Frank, Laura, Jan and Terry, SV

Q: Hello.

A: Two messages.

Q: (L) Who do we have with us?

A: Rituals restrict channel!

Q: (L) We weren't doing a ritual, we were just surrounding ourselves with light. Is there something wrong with surrounding ourselves with light and creating light energy?

A: Rituals are rituals.

23 July 1995

Q: (L) The point is that a constant state of worry, another crisis every day, the perpetual worry, eventually wears a person down to the point where one can no longer focus on any other issues.

A: Perhaps one can solve the crises by focusing on other issues? You see, when you constrict the flow, you constrict the channel. And when you constrict the channel, you close down possibilities. And, you make it difficult, if not impossible for you to see that which is there. In other words, the obvious becomes oblivious because of constriction of the flow. This is why we have recommended against all rituals, because ritual restricts the flow, thereby restricting the possibilities. And, what you are describing is a situation of "dire straits," as you call it, and financial pressures of great magnitude which is restricting you. But actually, it is your concentration on same that is restricting, not the situation itself. And we realize that it is difficult for you to focus your attentions, or, more importantly to open up the flow of the channel. But, it is certainly not impossible. Especially for an individual as strong as yourself. It is what you choose to do, not what you MUST do. It is what you CHOOSE to do.

 

[Alejo]

but as mentioned above I think if the intentions are more or less okay and non-anticipatory,

I think this is where it becomes troublesome and constricting. Most rituals, or what people would associate with ritual, is anticipatory by nature. You perform a task because you anticipate a result and I think that's probably the key, it constricts reality to a single wish, which is very unlikely to become a reality because of the nature of the universe, and then disappointment is a lot more likely to ensue, which is negative energy/food. Mostly because of that constriction and anticipation, but also because of the lie or placing oneself in position that is potentially opposite to truth

But, I think it also depends on how you define ritual, I'd say we all have little personal "rituals" on a daily basis that accomplish a certain task, working out, cooking a certain way, washing your hands, smoking a last cigarette at night, prayer... and this is where I think I agree with you on intent, these small "rituals" have an intent that doesn't contradict reality, in fact it flows in the same direction, but you're also knowledgeable about the mechanics at play.

For example, going to sleep at a specific time, to ensure 8 hours of rest a day will result in better health, mental clarity, better mood and alertness and so on, not because going to sleep early is rewarded by the gods, but because that's how good sleep affects our lives. It could be considered a ritual but the difference is that your knowledge is what informs the choice and because it's aligned with reality, then results are positive.

So, I would say that any choice or habit performed with the correct intent and knowledge, which may be described as a ritual, can indeed have positive results. It is when one blindly adopts rituals for the sake of adopting them that trouble ensues, IMO.

 

[Andrey]

Okay I'm guessing that the final conclusion is that there is always some kind of negative energetic backlash of some sort if the ritual is done "from without" for the sake of following an already old/established ritual protocol that the participant doesn't fully resonate with and on top of that without knowledge and awareness. Well that really sucks if that's true, because so many people get forced to do these rituals, especially here in India where rituals are a staple of their religion(s) and they have no idea that this is happening with them.

I know my dad would get highly offended with me if I told him all this. What can I do to protect him from any possible negative effects this might be having on my family? And what should I do in the future from relieving myself from participating in these rituals? I have no idea how I would tell them without offense being taken.

 

[NCfugee]

From time to time, I have had to attend a Christian mass for a wedding or funeral, etc.

The priest is the one who orders you to stand up, sit down, and repeat certain phrases, which no one in the room understands.

It is simply terrible.

When the priest orders you to stand up, I remain seated and of course I do not repeat any of the mantras ordered by the priest.

It is difficult, since people immediately start to hate you.

However, if it is okay for you, no problem, it is your decision.

Indeed, at my secondary school (traditional, but not a formally religious school) all the children had to attend religious services at the end of each term, which were led by the local priest. Even then, I never sang the hymns, never repeated the prayers, and refused to follow the priest's instructions. When I got older, I skipped them altogether. At first, I only had a vague idea of why religion irritated me so much at that time, but I was very sure that I didn't agree with it.

Ever since, I tried to learn as much as possible to get to the bottom of the issue, and the more I learn, the deeper the hole goes! And I haven't even got round to reading Laura's book yet.

 

[nicklebleu]

I think this is where it becomes troublesome and constricting. Most rituals, or what people would associate with ritual, is anticipatory by nature.

I would also argue that rituals come from a feeling of fear. Reminds me of the rituals of the Jews in the OT - retribution came to Israel if they didn’t follow the precepts exactly enough, or so they thought.

For example, going to sleep at a specific time, to ensure 8 hours of rest a day will result in better health, mental clarity, better mood and alertness and so on, not because going to sleep early is rewarded by the gods, but because that's how good sleep affects our lives.

I would rather call that a habit - and there are good and bad habits, as we all know!

I know my dad would get highly offended with me if I told him all this. What can I do to protect him from any possible negative effects this might be having on my family?

I personally think that it is not your task to interfere, you said it yourself, he would be offended. it is his choice and it is his prerogative.