Transmitting Stress Response Patterns Across Generations

[Gaby]

What if being totally self-serving and not caring at all about others somehow played a role in why all the dominants died out?

And I wonder why. Maybe what the Cs say about "suffering activates DNA" has something to do with all of this in more ways that we can imagine. If that is the case, psychopaths are so in trouble!

 

[Carl]

Hmm. I suppose if you look at the effects of plague from just a dietary point of I view I wouldn't think that psychopaths would be more or less susceptible to plague than anyone else. Put another way, I dunno if their psychological makeup would make them more susceptible. However, like the dominant baboons, their greed and need to dominate others will lead to thier downfall. But it's all linked: the earth needs a cleansing from the paths and their lies and destruction, comets bring destruction and plague. There have to be some in-the-know psychopaths who smoke and do the keto diet. I spose, as with everything it depends on the person.

The interesting thing of the baboon experiment in this documentary, is that they pretty much ate the same thing so there were no (or less) co-founding factors in that regard. At least for this particular study, they were able to pin down stress as the cause of atherosclerosis and abdominal fat, independently from dietary intake. I think this is what makes it most interesting that it was the stress-free dominant baboons who happened to die in the tuberculosis "plague".

But yes, we do have so many factors at play here, especially when it comes to humanity at large.

There seem to be two different viewpoints put forward by Sapolsky and his studies. The first suggests that those of low social status have higher stress and worse health, because of the anxiety caused by the hierarchy (you'd think they would be more susceptible to disease). But the second piece of data seems to suggest that those at the top of the hierarchy, without any real social bonds, were more vulnerable to being destroyed.

In the video he states:

In that troop if you were aggressive, and if you were not particularly socially connected, socially affiliative, - you didn't spend your time grooming and hanging out - if you were that kind of male, you died

And in this article:

But when it comes to stress-related diseases, social isolation may play an even more significant role than social rank or personality. "Up until 15 years ago, the most striking thing we found was that, if you're a baboon, you don't want to be low ranking, because your health is going to be lousy," he explained. "But what has become far clearer, and probably took a decade's worth of data, is the recognition that protection from stress-related disease is most powerfully grounded in social connectedness, and that's far more important than rank."

So it seems that those lower in the social order are the ones who are more sensitive, open, vulnerable, and basically want to connect with each other. If social connectedness is far more important than rank when it comes to stress-related disease, then those at the top would actually be more susceptible because of their "lone wolf" status, and lack of giving and receiving from others. The problem is compounded in human structures because it is extremely difficult to find that social connectedness in our strange societies, so we turn to power as a means of giving us self worth. When we have the power we are relatively stress free, but when we lose the power we come under stress.

Social support isn't equal to social power, yet sometimes he seems to confuse the two. For instance in the video he talks about how being in a low paid job doesn't matter as much if you're captain of the softball team, but this seems like still playing the power game, using status over others to make oneself feel better. Actual social support is mutual and not about domination, and feeds the part of us that actually needs feeding, instead of the false personality.

It is certainly interesting. On the one hand you have the poor people and the low ranking baboons who suffer from all kinds of ailments due to stress of being dominated. But on the other hand, you have the top ranking baboons being vulnerable to TB, and also the rapid apparent degradation of prominent political figures such as Bush, Obama, Hillary, etc. This may be because of the stress of competition at higher levels, or it may be because they simply cannot understand basic love and support.

The solution seems to be simply to stop identifying with the power game, step back, and form circular social structures instead of pyramidal structures.

 

[Gaby]

The solution seems to be simply to stop identifying with the power game, step back, and form circular social structures instead of pyramidal structures.

Indeed!

But when it comes to stress-related diseases, social isolation may play an even more significant role than social rank or personality. "Up until 15 years ago, the most striking thing we found was that, if you're a baboon, you don't want to be low ranking, because your health is going to be lousy," he explained. "But what has become far clearer, and probably took a decade's worth of data, is the recognition that protection from stress-related disease is most powerfully grounded in social connectedness, and that's far more important than rank."

And this is related to this:

Under the microscope: The effect of loneliness on physical and mental health
http://www.sott.net/article/267059-Under-the-microscope-The-effect-of-loneliness-on-physical-and-mental-health

Loneliness appears to play a direct molecular role in emotional and physical problems. Canli even found that those who were lonely had a gene expression pattern suggesting an increased likelihood of dementia and a more rapid decline with Alzheimer's disease. As Canli summarized, "loneliness precedes poorer health later in life."

Immunology: The pursuit of happiness
http://www.sott.net/article/269523-Immunology-The-pursuit-of-happiness

It is now accepted that the body's response to stress can suppress parts of the immune system and, over the long term, lead to damaging levels of inflammation. [...]

Social isolation is one of the most powerful known psychological risk factors for poor health,[...]

A particularly large proportion of the upregulated genes in the lonely group turned out to be involved in the inflammatory response, whereas many of the downregulated genes had antiviral roles. In sociable people, the reverse was true.[...]

Early humans in close-knit social groups would have faced increased risk of viral infections, so they would have benefited from revved-up antiviral genes. [...]

Studies involving 45 stressed caregivers6 and 40 lonely adults7 respectively found that courses in meditation shifted gene-expression profiles in the participants' white blood cells away from inflammatory genes and towards antiviral genes. [...]

"If we change the psychology, physiological changes do parallel that."[...]

People with a meaning-based or purpose-based outlook had favourable gene-expression profiles, whereas hedonic well-being, when it occurred on its own, was associated with profiles similar to those seen in individuals facing adversity.

It is still kind of baffling that the dominant baboons which had less inflammatory and stress markers, died. That is, within the context of the tuberculosis incident, it seems that the subordinate baboons where the ones who fitted the "lonely" profile up until the evil ones died. Then they set up social behavior as a lifestyle and way of living, free from pathological behavior.

Perhaps I'm seeing too much into it and it was only a lucky incident which gave way to interesting results: without aggressive baboons, their society thrived on social behavior.

 

[zak]

I found this documentary fascinating:
Stress, Portrait of a Killer - Full Documentary (2008) -- Sott.net

More informations on streSS with the same Robert Sapolsky:
Sapolsky On Stress : Robert Sapolsky : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Keit]

There is this interesting new study.

Abused children carry the trauma in their cells: Study

PARIS: Children subjected to abuse may carry the physical hallmark of that trauma in their cells, scientists said Tuesday (Oct 2), in research that could help criminal investigations probing historic mistreatment.

The imprints may also shed light on whether or not trauma can be passed on between generations as has long been hypothesised.

A team of researchers at the University of British Columbia examined the sperm cells of 34 adult men, some of whom had been victims of child abuse years earlier.

They found that the effects of the trauma were indelibly printed in 12 regions of the DNA of those men who had experienced varying levels of emotional, physical or sexual abuse.

Scientists believe these alterations, known as methylation, could one day be used by investigators or courts to weigh allegations of child abuse.

"If you think of genes as being like lightbulbs, DNA methylation is like a dimmer switch that controls how strong each light is - which in turn can influence how cells function," Nicole Gladish, a PhD candidate in the university's Department of Medical Genetics, told AFP.

"This information can potentially provide additional information about how childhood abuse affects long-term physical and mental health."

The experiment is one of a growing number of trials looking into what turns genes "on and off" at different periods of human development, a field of study known as epigenetics.

Once thought as entirely pre-programmed from conception, some genes are now known to be activated or deactivated by environmental factors or an individual's life experience.

"SMALL PIECE OF THE PUZZLE"

Scientists involved in the study, published in the journal Translational Psychiatry, said they still did not know how methylation affects a person's long-term health.

In addition, due to the difficulty in extracting egg cells, the team don't plan to replicate the experiment on women - statistically far likelier to have been victims of child abuse than men.

Scientists said the degree of "dimming" in the DNA regions were surprising - one part of the genome of the men who were abused as children was 29 per cent different to those who were not.

And, because the degree of methylation changes over time, they were able to tell by looking at the men's cells roughly when the abuse occurred.

"This might help the development of tests that could be used by healthcare workers or potentially even as forensic evidence," Gladish said.

Although researchers still have little idea whether or not the imprints of abuse contained within sperm cells would survive fertilisation intact, lead author Andrea Roberts said the study "brings us at least one step closer" towards working out if trauma can be transmitted across generations.

"We can look at our study as one small piece in the huge overall puzzle of how intergenerational trauma works," said Gladish.

She pointed out there are several other teams working on the conundrum, including experiments on mice and other animals.

"It is certainly possible that epigenetic changes in sperm cells play a role in the physical and mental health of the next generation, but we don't know for sure."

 

[Alejo]

I saw that yesterday and it made me think about this idea of family constellations therapy, and the idea of a necessary connection with your ancestors. You could have issues that originated generations ago and if you aren’t in touch with the life experiences of your ancestors, you may not have a framework to attempt to understand and hopefully work through some of said issues. Very interesting.

Sadly I also saw the potential of studies such as these to strengthen the idea of the need for retribution of minorities because of the abuse suffered by their ancestors.

 

[Chu]

Sadly I also saw the potential of studies such as these to strengthen the idea of the need for retribution of minorities because of the abuse suffered by their ancestors.

Indeed. But if they did what they claim in the article:

Scientists believe these alterations, known as methylation, could one day be used by investigators or courts to weigh allegations of child abuse.

it could also be used for good, as nowadays the justice system hardly believes children. It says in the article that they can even tell roughly when the abuse occurred. I doubt they would implement it, though. It's not convenient for the abusers.

Very interesting.

 

[Alejo]

Indeed. But if they did what they claim in the article:

it could also be used for good, as nowadays the justice system hardly believes children. It says in the article that they can even tell roughly when the abuse occurred. I doubt they would implement it, though. It's not convenient for the abusers.

Very interesting.

Quite right but, and perhaps I’m being particularly pessimistic today xD, but the way facts get twisted these days in order to fit a hypothesis is mind numbing, I can see them picking this one tiny piece of the study and making it fit it like a glove.

Although it’s also true that most of the current ideological current is so self centered that it tends not to be open to new information so chances are that they’d miss this study.