Transmitting Stress Response Patterns Across Generations

H-KQGE

Dagobah Resident
This one's about "Intergenerational" stress modulation of gene expression & behaviour. (via females )

http://www.elsevier.com/about/press-releases/research-and-journals/transmitting-stress-response-patterns-across-generations

From a new study in Biological Psychiatry

Philadelphia, PA, November 4, 2013
Children of survivors of extremely stressful life events face adjustment challenges of their own, as has been most carefully studied among the children of Nazi Death Camp survivors. This "intergenerational" transmission of stress response has been studied predominately from the psychological perspective. However, recent research points to biological contributions as well.

Indeed, a new study just published in Biological Psychiatry demonstrates that offspring born to stressed mothers show stress-induced changes at birth, with altered behavior and gender-related differences that continue into adulthood.

"The notion that biological traits that are not coded by the sequence of DNA can be transmitted across generations is the focus of a field of research called epigenetics. This new paper implicates epigenetic regulation of a well-studied contributor to stress response, CRF1, in the intergenerational transmission of patterns of stress response," said Dr. John Krystal, Editor of Biological Psychiatry.

The researchers, led by Dr. Inna Gaisler-Salomon at University of Haifa in Israel, were interested in how stress modulates behavior and gene expression across generations. Previous studies in both humans and animals have shown that females exposed to stress even before they conceive can affect their children and even grandchildren.

In this study, they looked for a possible mechanism for these effects, focusing on the CRF1 gene. They studied adolescent female rats that went through a mild stress procedure before mating.

Stress led to an increase in CRF1 expression in the frontal cortex, a brain region involved in emotional regulation and decision making. Also, there was a dramatic increase in CRF1 expression in the egg cells of stressed females.

In the offspring of stressed female rats, brain CRF1 expression was increased as well, already at birth. "It seems that CRF1 is a marker molecule that tracks the stress experience across generations, perhaps via the germline, and maternal care is minimally involved in this particular effect," explained Gaisler-Salomon.

They also found behavioral differences between the offspring of stressed and non-stressed females, particularly in tests of emotional and exploratory behavior. Interestingly, CRF1 expression was increased in adult daughters of stressed females, but only if the offspring themselves were exposed to stress. This indicates that in adults, CRF1 expression depends on the mother's stress experiences in combination with the individual's stress experience and their sex.

"So why is this important?" asked Gaisler-Salomon. "Traditionally, it was believed that only genetic information is transferred from generation to generation via eggs and sperm cells. This study contributes to the notion that soft-wired information that is not written into the genetic code can also be transferred from one generation to the next via the germline."

Many psychiatric illnesses, such as schizophrenia and posttraumatic stress disorder, are related to stress. Better understanding of the related mechanisms can contribute to the development of better diagnostics and improved treatments.

Well, I'm assuming that this connection has been thought of by those who've had access to information in certain fields of science such as the biological arm(s), & chemistry arm. I don't think it's a massive leap to imagine that the more experienced & knowledgeable forum members have had this idea too, the networking that should be going on regularly amongst science researchers but hardly does, should lead to this idea especially with diet & the long-studied psychological research. (as they said at the top of the article)
At least there's some kind of proof to aid further study, even though they use the words "contributes to the notion."
 
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Mike

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What comes to mind after reading this (thanks for posting it H-kqge) is how narcissistic wounding and programs can be passed along from generation to generation and this can relate to stress, the CRF1 gene and mental illness. Kind of like the child isn't getting their needs met from the narcissistically wounded parent, who is trying to have their own needs met, and this can cause stress, formation of programs much like the parent experienced with their parents. The cycle needs to be broken.
 

SeekinTruth

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Yeah, epigenetics / gene expression is very important in a lot of ways (not just what genes are present).
 

H-KQGE

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I'm adding this article here as it continues the theme of the thread - transmission of stress across generations - even though there are differences. Again, better than opening a new thread. I was taken aback by the title until I read further...

http://www.healthcanal.com/pregnancy-childbirth/44748-study-shows-moms-may-pass-effects-of-stress-to-offspring-via-vaginal-bacteria-and-placenta.html

Study Shows Moms May Pass Effects of Stress to Offspring Via Vaginal Bacteria and Placenta

Penn Medicine Studies Presented at Neuroscience 2013 Point to Two Potential Ways Mothers Pass Stress onto Child
SAN DIEGO — Pregnant women may transmit the damaging effects of stress to their unborn child by way of the bacteria in their vagina and through the placenta, suggest new findings from two animal studies presented by researchers at the University of Pennsylvania at Neuroscience 2013, the annual meeting of the Society for Neuroscience.
Stresses felt by mothers during pregnancy have been shown to affect offspring neurodevelopment and increase the risk for disorders such as autism and schizophrenia, but the mechanisms by which it can reprogram the developing brain are not clear.
As a newborn passes through the birth canal, the microbiome of a mother’s vagina ends up in the offspring’s gut. In the first study, the team, led by Tracy L. Bale, PhD, Professor of Neuroscience in the Perelman School of Medicine, Department of Psychiatry and the School of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Biology at Penn, found that changes in the microbiome produced by stress in pregnant mice altered the microbe population in the newborn’s gut and correlated to changes in the developing brain.
Using targeted approaches in mice, the researchers determined that early prenatal stress affected both the maternal and offspring levels of lactobacillus, a lactic acid-producing bacteria associated with brain neurochemistry. It has been demonstrated that throwing off those levels can affect neurodevelopment.
The team then observed changes in gene expression in the hypothalamus in offspring of the mice that correlated with levels of lactobacillus. Many of these genes play a critical role in development and brain function.
“For the first time, we’ve shown how stress can change the microbiome in the vagina and impact the microbiome of her offspring’s gut, and that may, in part, ultimately affect their brain function and neurodevelopment,” said Bale. “This mechanism could help us better understand how it may predispose individuals to neurodevelopmental disorders.”
In a parallel animal study, Bale and colleagues were looking for predictive biomarkers of maternal stress and found that a specific protein in the placenta, OGT, may have implications for brain development in offspring. The single enzyme is known as O-linked-N-acetylglucosamine transferase or “OGT,” which is important in a wide variety of regulatory functions, including development.
The researchers found that placentas associated with male mouse pups had lower levels of OGT than the placentas associated with female pups, and levels of OGT in the placenta were even lower when their moms were stressed.
The team then used transgenics to directly manipulate placental OGT levels similar to the effect that maternal stress has. That way, they could ask if any of the effects of mom’s stress on brain development and function were related to this placental gene. What they found was fascinating--when these babies became adults, they were smaller and more sensitive to stress, very similar to the offspring from the stressed moms.
“Since lower levels were associated with stress, these results suggest that placental OGT may provide a protective role during pregnancy,” said Bale. “These data also suggest that OGT may serve as a biomarker for a range of neurodevelopmental disorders in children, as we have previously shown similar regulation of this gene in human placental tissue.”

So if the mother already has a neurodevelopmental disorder & associations with say celiac disease, this would be a (major?) pathway to the offspring getting a form of whatever disorder they're genetically predisposed to. In large, due to the ongoing intestinal morphology because of (next generation) continuous consumption of toxic foods. Apologies if that's not entirely clear, I'm taking in a lot of different information on these subjects that sometimes seem to conflict. (at least in my mind)
 

Arwenn

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H-kqge said:
I'm adding this article here as it continues the theme of the thread - transmission of stress across generations - even though there are differences.

Well I find this thread and the studies here really interesting, in light of the post Psyche made here about a book by Olga Kharitides, and which I have mentioned elsewhere. This is coming from a different perspective about trauma (and by virtue of that stress) affecting our genes trans-generationally. Makes EE and diet and the Work(re-capitulation and re-writing our narratives) seem all the more important in terms of releasing that baggage, and not feeding these Spirits of Trauma who also need to eat(by way of controlling our thoughts and actions and creating yet more trauma).

Psyche said:
The story is a follow-up to Olga's first book "Entering the Circle" and it begins in Siberia where she works as a psychiatrist. It is written as an auto-biographical story and we get an insight on how she feels, her thoughts, her fears and stories of some of her patients are shared as well.

The story gets more interesting after she attends a lecture, "Healing the Spirits of Trauma" given by an emissary from a healing brotherhood in Samarkand, Uzbekistan. The purpose of the lecture, is to introduce the healing methods of the brotherhood to "outsiders" and invite them to go to Uzbekistan so they can learn in first hand what the brotherhood is all about.

The following is taken from the lecture:

"Can you tell me what, from your judgment and experience, you consider to be the source of suffering and unhappiness in the world?" ...

"Is it evil?" ...

"In reality, it is vice versa. When you distance yourself from the source of suffering, when you name it as opposite to what you want to be (I assume that you all want to be good, don't you?), you lose a chance to change it. Because it continues to live inside you, as part of you, making you make many of your choices, but you refuse to recognize it, so you remain in ignorant bliss and you continue to suffer.

"We call the source of unhappiness and disease `trauma.' And we believe that there are live representations
of trauma in all of us. In our tradition, we call them `spirits of trauma.' Whenever something hurts you and you don't accept it fully as a complete part of your history, you create a gap in your memory; a gap which, when the hurt is strong or repeated many times, becomes occupied by a spirit of trauma.
You don't have to imagine some fashioned freaky monster sitting on your back and sucking out your blood." A ripple of soft laughter went through the audience as an expression of relief.

"You can think about this in terms of neurocognitive science, if you like the term 'neurotransmitters' better than 'creatures of the night.' You may call them additional subjects; you may define them as unintegrated representations; you may choose whatever language and metaphors you prefer. It doesn't matter. What matters is the process. The internal psychic process, often extended throughout generations by the inheritance of patterns of trauma formed, perhaps long, long ago, when one of your ancestors went through an unbearable hurt.

"Human genes are much more flexible than we think. They perceive as much as they act. When a hurt reaches
the level of genes, it makes them behave differently and distort the memory, preventing the memory from becoming complete. The gap in memory is created, and a spirit of trauma houses itself in this gap, hidden from our awareness. ...

They learn to hide them from themselves and their children. They play hide-and-seek with spirits of trauma, and guess what? Most often they lose, because even when they don't remember, their genes—those unfailing memory units—do, and the hurt stays there until you heal it. ...

"The same mechanism works with smaller things. We start to gather up more personal hurts in the basket of our memory soon after coming into this world.

Every creature tries to survive. It is true for the spirits of trauma as well. They need to 'eat.' They are always hungry. They create 'food' for themselves by generating more hurt. Why does the 'Paradox exist, that victims of abuse become the worst abusers themselves? It is not logical, but it is perfectly reasonable for the spirits of trauma to grow in abuse victims through their hurts and feed themselves by re-creating those hurts. You may know this from your own experiences.

{snip}

There are three main points I or why it is vitally important for everyone to win in their battle with the spirits of trauma. First, because when you conquer them, it brings profound healing, reverses unhappiness, and treats disease. Diseases are the means by which (in organism tries to fight the traumas on its own. So many Times, I've seen people get sick and look for help at very particular points in their life, moments when the spirit of trauma becomes activated in a person with incomplete psychic memory. That is why many healing changes follow when you are able to eradicate the root of trauma.

"Second, we believe in our tradition that whatever we do directly touches generations before and after us. When you free yourself from trauma, you heal your ancestors and protect generations after you. I saw many people who would act out their traumas, essentially looking for help, when their children reach the age when they themselves experienced the hurt. ...

"It is not a 'concept.' It is a way of living your life, feeling its boundaries and borders. It relates to what you ultimately understand as 'self.' All knowledge comes to that understanding. But with any knowledge, the truth is that you can't obtain it just by making the decision to do so. You have to exchange your personal experience for it. "All of you in this room have created the wealth of your experiences in your own unique ways. Yet it brought you here tonight so you will receive this knowledge. I believe that without those experiences that prepared you, you wouldn't have come tonight. Your car would have broken, your friend would have called, and so on. It is true for those who didn't plan to come but who happened to be here seemingly by accident. Believe me, it was not an accident, but your experiences which strive to become knowledge, that brought you here tonight." ...
 

H-KQGE

Dagobah Resident
Arwenn said:
H-kqge said:
I'm adding this article here as it continues the theme of the thread - transmission of stress across generations - even though there are differences.

Well I find this thread and the studies here really interesting, in light of the post Psyche made here about a book by Olga Kharitides, and which I have mentioned elsewhere. This is coming from a different perspective about trauma (and by virtue of that stress) affecting our genes trans-generationally. Makes EE and diet and the Work(re-capitulation and re-writing our narratives) seem all the more important in terms of releasing that baggage, and not feeding these Spirits of Trauma who also need to eat(by way of controlling our thoughts and actions and creating yet more trauma).

Psyche said:
The story is a follow-up to Olga's first book "Entering the Circle" and it begins in Siberia where she works as a psychiatrist. It is written as an auto-biographical story and we get an insight on how she feels, her thoughts, her fears and stories of some of her patients are shared as well.

The story gets more interesting after she attends a lecture, "Healing the Spirits of Trauma" given by an emissary from a healing brotherhood in Samarkand, Uzbekistan. The purpose of the lecture, is to introduce the healing methods of the brotherhood to "outsiders" and invite them to go to Uzbekistan so they can learn in first hand what the brotherhood is all about.

The following is taken from the lecture:

"Can you tell me what, from your judgment and experience, you consider to be the source of suffering and unhappiness in the world?" ...

"Is it evil?" ...

"In reality, it is vice versa. When you distance yourself from the source of suffering, when you name it as opposite to what you want to be (I assume that you all want to be good, don't you?), you lose a chance to change it. Because it continues to live inside you, as part of you, making you make many of your choices, but you refuse to recognize it, so you remain in ignorant bliss and you continue to suffer.

"We call the source of unhappiness and disease `trauma.' And we believe that there are live representations
of trauma in all of us. In our tradition, we call them `spirits of trauma.' Whenever something hurts you and you don't accept it fully as a complete part of your history, you create a gap in your memory; a gap which, when the hurt is strong or repeated many times, becomes occupied by a spirit of trauma.
You don't have to imagine some fashioned freaky monster sitting on your back and sucking out your blood." A ripple of soft laughter went through the audience as an expression of relief.

"You can think about this in terms of neurocognitive science, if you like the term 'neurotransmitters' better than 'creatures of the night.' You may call them additional subjects; you may define them as unintegrated representations; you may choose whatever language and metaphors you prefer. It doesn't matter. What matters is the process. The internal psychic process, often extended throughout generations by the inheritance of patterns of trauma formed, perhaps long, long ago, when one of your ancestors went through an unbearable hurt.

"Human genes are much more flexible than we think. They perceive as much as they act. When a hurt reaches
the level of genes, it makes them behave differently and distort the memory, preventing the memory from becoming complete. The gap in memory is created, and a spirit of trauma houses itself in this gap, hidden from our awareness. ...

They learn to hide them from themselves and their children. They play hide-and-seek with spirits of trauma, and guess what? Most often they lose, because even when they don't remember, their genes—those unfailing memory units—do, and the hurt stays there until you heal it. ...

"The same mechanism works with smaller things. We start to gather up more personal hurts in the basket of our memory soon after coming into this world.

Every creature tries to survive. It is true for the spirits of trauma as well. They need to 'eat.' They are always hungry. They create 'food' for themselves by generating more hurt. Why does the 'Paradox exist, that victims of abuse become the worst abusers themselves? It is not logical, but it is perfectly reasonable for the spirits of trauma to grow in abuse victims through their hurts and feed themselves by re-creating those hurts. You may know this from your own experiences.

{snip}

There are three main points I or why it is vitally important for everyone to win in their battle with the spirits of trauma. First, because when you conquer them, it brings profound healing, reverses unhappiness, and treats disease. Diseases are the means by which (in organism tries to fight the traumas on its own. So many Times, I've seen people get sick and look for help at very particular points in their life, moments when the spirit of trauma becomes activated in a person with incomplete psychic memory. That is why many healing changes follow when you are able to eradicate the root of trauma.

"Second, we believe in our tradition that whatever we do directly touches generations before and after us. When you free yourself from trauma, you heal your ancestors and protect generations after you. I saw many people who would act out their traumas, essentially looking for help, when their children reach the age when they themselves experienced the hurt. ...

"It is not a 'concept.' It is a way of living your life, feeling its boundaries and borders. It relates to what you ultimately understand as 'self.' All knowledge comes to that understanding. But with any knowledge, the truth is that you can't obtain it just by making the decision to do so. You have to exchange your personal experience for it. "All of you in this room have created the wealth of your experiences in your own unique ways. Yet it brought you here tonight so you will receive this knowledge. I believe that without those experiences that prepared you, you wouldn't have come tonight. Your car would have broken, your friend would have called, and so on. It is true for those who didn't plan to come but who happened to be here seemingly by accident. Believe me, it was not an accident, but your experiences which strive to become knowledge, that brought you here tonight." ...

Thanks for referencing that thread again Arwenn. The part I put in red reminds me of several books I've read that spoke of "spells" i.e. words & colours, numbers & symbols. The effect of them on people through family, friends, religion & civilizations together (some knowledge/false knowledge, mainly beliefs) could control so many, but the associations using vibrations & frequency for example (like red equalling danger, white for purity or 13 as an omen, wyrd/weird - old English - associated with pagans/Wicca thus "evil" etc) hold for many many generations when not systematically challenged.

Psyche said:
That is fascinating and there are a couple of things that stand out for me:

[...]

Animals with a history of trauma also have much more intense catecholamine responses to stress85 and a blunted cortisol response.25

Stress causes a return to earlier behavior patterns throughout the animal kingdom. In experiments in mice, Mitchell and colleagues98,99 found that arousal state determines how an animal will react to stimuli. In a state of low arousal, animals tend to be curious and seek novelty. During high arousal, they are frightened, avoid novelty, and perseverate in familiar behavior regardless of the outcome. Under ordinary circumstances, an animal will choose the most pleasant of two alternatives. When hyperaroused, it will seek the familiar, regardless of the intrinsic rewards.99 Thus shocked animals returned to the box in which they were originally shocked, in preference to less familiar locations not associated with punishment. Punished animals actually increased their exposure to shock as the trials continued.98 Mitchell concluded that this perseveration is nonassociative, that is, if uncoupled from the usual rewards systems, animals seek optimal levels of arousal,10,122 and this mediates patterns of alternation and perseveration.

Because novel stimuli cause arousal, an animal in a state of high arousal will avoid even mildly novel stimuli even if it would reduce exposure to pain.

[...]

This controlled study supports numerous other clinical reports about the relationship between childhood abuse and self-destructive behavior.52,106,118 In these people, self-mutilation is a common response to abandonment; it is accompanied by both analgesia and an altered state of consciousness, and it provides relief and return to normality.

The pain, cutting, and burning are apparent attempts at "repairing the cohesiveness of the self in the face of overwhelming anxiety."35 This pattern is reminiscent of spouse abuse described by Walker:145 "tension gradually builds, an explosive battering (self-mutilating) incident occurs, and a 'calm, loving respite' follows."

I used to lament myself for not been more curious during my childhood and for not seeking out healthier interactions, but in retrospect, it could had not been otherwise. I was in a "self-preservation" mode. Also the self-mutilation thing. I would pick at my skin with my nails so I always kept my nails extremely short to avoid severe damage and bleeding. Yeah, it is pretty sick, but I used to find it extremely self-calming and relieving. Deciding to stop it just by sheer force of will doesn't work, just by getting to the emotional root of the problem does it. Olga also shares a story of self-mutilation in the book, done by a very wounded woman. The way it is described in the story, is pretty much the way it is described above, only that in a narrative/personal way.

I don't know if the book happened as it was told, or if Olga added elements derived from her clinical experience and/or research into healing methods of Ancient Cultures, but it is surely interesting.

I took this from the same thread in your link, (Psyche is quoting an article in Buddy's post) & there are plenty of relevant ones to choose from there. Again my emphasis is in red, but this quote has been one of my few troubles from youth too & it's ongoing, though much less now. The point is that as she rightly says, the emotional root is all-important & uncovering the traumas of my (immediate) family has brought greater clarity & insight into my childhood. Definitely another of those many priceless threads on the forum for sure.
 

Gaby

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H-kqge said:
I took this from the same thread in your link, (Psyche is quoting an article in Buddy's post) & there are plenty of relevant ones to choose from there. Again my emphasis is in red, but this quote has been one of my few troubles from youth too & it's ongoing, though much less now. The point is that as she rightly says, the emotional root is all-important & uncovering the traumas of my (immediate) family has brought greater clarity & insight into my childhood. Definitely another of those many priceless threads on the forum for sure.

Thanks for reviving the "Spirits of Trauma" thread. Reviewing these concepts within the context of the new Knowledge and Being videos is very interesting.

I remember reading in sott.net not too long ago about self-mutilation within the context of feeling something when feelings get numbed due to a toxic environment. A TV show I watched awhile ago also comes to mind. In the episode there was this kid in a British school who was extremely anxious to perform well. He was troubled by feelings that he was not good enough and couldn't enjoy the learning and schooling process due to various programs. There was this scene that seemed too realistic and extremely sad: As he was setting himself to study for a final test, he takes a cigarette and burns his skin. He feels so relieved after this self-mutilation act, that he is able and ready to study and go through it.

I never had to go to that extreme, but reading the sott.net article (which unfortunately I can't find now) made me realize how insidious and ubiquitous this problem is. I would pick up mercilessly on blackheads or pimples. I can see traces of it now that I go through old pictures from when I was in high school or Uni.

Going to the root of the problem with psychological help is the most constructive and caring way to go to learn how to respect your body's messages and yourself in general. :flowers:
 

Arwenn

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Psyche said:
H-kqge said:
I took this from the same thread in your link, (Psyche is quoting an article in Buddy's post) & there are plenty of relevant ones to choose from there. Again my emphasis is in red, but this quote has been one of my few troubles from youth too & it's ongoing, though much less now. The point is that as she rightly says, the emotional root is all-important & uncovering the traumas of my (immediate) family has brought greater clarity & insight into my childhood. Definitely another of those many priceless threads on the forum for sure.

Thanks for reviving the "Spirits of Trauma" thread. Reviewing these concepts within the context of the new Knowledge and Being videos is very interesting.

I remember reading in sott.net not too long ago about self-mutilation within the context of feeling something when feelings get numbed due to a toxic environment. A TV show I watched awhile ago also comes to mind. In the episode there was this kid in a British school who was extremely anxious to perform well. He was troubled by feelings that he was not good enough and couldn't enjoy the learning and schooling process due to various programs. There was this scene that seemed too realistic and extremely sad: As he was setting himself to study for a final test, he takes a cigarette and burns his skin. He feels so relieved after this self-mutilation act, that he is able and ready to study and go through it.

I never had to go to that extreme, but reading the sott.net article (which unfortunately I can't find now) made me realize how insidious and ubiquitous this problem is. I would pick up mercilessly on blackheads or pimples. I can see traces of it now that I go through old pictures from when I was in high school or Uni.

Going to the root of the problem with psychological help is the most constructive and caring way to go to learn how to respect your body's messages and yourself in general. :flowers:

Psyche, this must be much more prevalent now, I was not aware of the concept of self-mutilation in my youth. I used to bite my nails, but more out of habit than anything else. But when I think back over my life, maybe I 'harmed' myself in more insidious ways by self-sabotage in my personal relationships, as I had written about here.

Brings new light to the eternal nature vs nurture argument, in that (concerning the Spirits of Trauma) it is both. From a 5D perspective, maybe we as souls choose our parents (and hence our genes, and all that is stored within) and the general backdrop to incarnate in, to learn the lessons we need to; but as we progress along, driven by possible attachments, stress and trauma from life on 3D, we continue to build upon the hurt stored in our genes.

And yes, with the current focus on the Knowledge and basing videos, I am glad I came upon your post in the Spirits of Trauma thread.
 

Arwenn

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H-kqge said:
Psyche said:
"In reality, it is vice versa. When you distance yourself from the source of suffering, when you name it as opposite to what you want to be (I assume that you all want to be good, don't you?), you lose a chance to change it. Because it continues to live inside you, as part of you, making you make many of your choices, but you refuse to recognize it, so you remain in ignorant bliss and you continue to suffer.

Thanks for referencing that thread again Arwenn. The part I put in red reminds me of several books I've read that spoke of "spells" i.e. words & colours, numbers & symbols. The effect of them on people through family, friends, religion & civilizations together (some knowledge/false knowledge, mainly beliefs) could control so many, but the associations using vibrations & frequency for example (like red equalling danger, white for purity or 13 as an omen, wyrd/weird - old English - associated with pagans/Wicca thus "evil" etc) hold for many many generations when not systematically challenged.

Yes, for example even to this day, to an Aboriginal 'pointing the bone' can cause harm if not death, due to their years old cultural belief system.

H-kqge said:
I took this from the same thread in your link, (Psyche is quoting an article in Buddy's post) & there are plenty of relevant ones to choose from there. Again my emphasis is in red, but this quote has been one of my few troubles from youth too & it's ongoing, though much less now. The point is that as she rightly says, the emotional root is all-important & uncovering the traumas of my (immediate) family has brought greater clarity & insight into my childhood. Definitely another of those many priceless threads on the forum for sure.

The fact that trauma can be stored within us for generations, and what we do can affect our progeny is both a scary thought and a liberating thought. Because we can heal, genes are flexible; by breath and food we can up regulate the genes that bring us closer to the Light rather than feed the Spirits of Darkness, Trauma and Misery.
 

Gaby

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I found the article! Just a few keywords and voilà. Some food for thought:

Self harming on rise: Why do so many children self-harm?

http://www.sott.net/article/267224-Self-harming-on-rise-Why-do-so-many-children-self-harm

Those who cut themselves - many as young as 10 - are often dismissed as attention-seekers. But their distress is real, and their numbers are increasing, reports Kate Hilpern

Chloe was just 12 when she started self-harming. "I was very quiet and an easy target for bullies. My brother was unwell, so I didn't want to bother my parents, and I had very few friends. One day in class, I dug my nails into my arm to stop me crying, and I was surprised by how much the physical pain distracted me from the emotional pain. Before long, I was regularly scratching myself, deeper each time."

The following year, on another particularly bad day, Chloe came home to find a knife on the kitchen side. "It felt almost instinctive to cut myself and afterwards, I felt so much better. By the time I was 15, I was using scissors or blades several times a day and never left home without something sharp."

Chloe hid her scars, but one day a friend saw her diary. This led to Chloe's mum, Jo, finding out. "It was a big shock," says Jo. "Chloe, who is now 17, has always been a very sensible, studious young lady. I didn't even know she was unhappy. Making matters worse was the fact that I got such bad advice. I was told not to discuss anything with Chloe, just to march her into treatment. It didn't work."

Last week, official statistics revealed an alarming rise in children who self-harm. These figures show that in the past year, NHS hospitals treated more than 18,000 girls and 4,600 boys between 10 and 19 after they had deliberately harmed themselves - a rise of 11 per cent. During the same period, cases involving children between 10 and 14 rose from 4,008 to 5,192 - a rise of 30 per cent.

According to Sarah Brennan, chief executive of YoungMinds, "An equally striking finding, which reflects Jo's experience, was the lack of confidence among parents and professionals about how to deal with it."

So what's going on? Why are so many young people - children, for goodness sake - self-harming? And where did the phenomenon, one that many people hadn't even heard of until recently, come from anyway?

Rachel Welch, project manager at selfharm.co.uk, isn't convinced self-harming is on the rise. It's just we are more aware of it, says the 35-year-old. Indeed, even the Bible includes stories about self-harming and the World Health Organisation has long recognised it as a problem, not just in the West but in developing countries.

"If you think back," Welch says, "you may well remember someone in your youth who bit their nails furiously to the point of bleeding or who pulled out their hair. I knew one woman who always wore shoes a size too small because she said each step reminded her of just how awful she thought she was. When I self-harmed as a teenager, I used bruising. Like these other people, I didn't think of it as self-harm, though, because the label wasn't around and there was no real understanding of it."

In turn, this meant other people were less likely to look out for, or notice, it. "And it certainly didn't occur to me to contact anyone to help make sense of what I was doing. We had no phone except one static landline where everyone could hear you and I wouldn't have known who to call anyway," she says. "Nowadays, people are much more likely to know about self-harm and they can contact organisations like ours, ChildLine and others privately by phone or online."

But Sue Minto, head of ChildLine, believes the increase in cases has been dramatic. "In 2011/12, self-harm appeared for the first time in the top five main concerns for 14 year olds. This dropped further to 13 year olds in 2012/13, indicating that more young people are self-harming at a younger age," she says.

While some headlines have blamed a society increasingly obsessed with body image (which may help account for why girls are more prone to self-harming), Minto believes a more serious problem is the 24/7 online culture. "In my day, if someone was bullied, they could find escape at home, but that isn't available now. Before you know it, something you said in confidence to one friend, or something unkind that someone else has said about you, is up there in neon lights for anyone to read for any amount of time."

Then there's the fact that families are increasingly fragmented and the inequality gap is widening. "Research shows that under-12s, in particular, are very watchful when their parents are stressed and often internalise it," says Fiona Pienaar, head of service management at children's mental health charity Place2Be.

No wonder so many more young people turn to self-harm to cope, she says. "People report that the pain - and blood, if cutting is involved - can make them feel they are alive, when otherwise they feel numb or insignificant. People also talk about the overwhelming tension that can build up in their body, which hurting yourself can release. Then there's the way that physical pain can push away emotional pain. Many people, for example, report banging their heads against a wall when dreadful thoughts seem to take over. And others talk about wanting to punish themselves."

Whilst it's clearly positive that self-harm is now acknowledged as a problem, the increased publicity does have a darker side, she says. "It means it is more likely to be on the menu of options for young people. I do wonder if some who hear about it and are struggling, may then try it."

With celebrities such as Demi Lovato, the US singer, increasingly making public that they self-harmed, it's a concept that is much more likely to be on a young person's radar, she explains.

Certainly much is made of copycat self-harming, a concept that took a particularly sinister turn in January when a mock campaign started by online pranksters urged Justin Bieber fans to self-harm themselves and film it in protest at controversial images of the pop star.

There are even pro-self-harm websites, which Welch says are even darker than pro-anorexia ones. "These are sites which urge competition about how far you can go or which get people posting their cuts as badges of honour."

These are not reasons to stop discussions around self-harm, however, she says. "I think that if someone is going to watch a film with self-harm or read about it in a magazine and try it, then they probably would have a predisposition towards it anyway. In fact, I think the more we talk about it, the more likely prevention, support and treatment is likely to improve."

As it is, she says, there are countless problems. First off, prevention, which has to involve young people feeling they have positive engagement with their families, schools and peers, clearly isn't happening.

Second, while an adult facing mental health problems is likely to refer themselves to a doctor, youngsters almost never do until their symptoms are acute. It therefore falls to a parent or teacher, many of whom don't notice the problem.
"A further issue is that GPs often measure the emotional distress by the severity of the scars. But a 15-year-old cutting herself down to the bone isn't necessarily any more distressed than a 15-year-old scratching her wrist."

Even youngsters who do get referred often have an 18-week wait. "That's a long time for the problem to fester and they may no longer be in the right head space to talk about it."

Then there's the fact that youngsters need choices in treatment. "I completely refused all counselling and cognitive behavioural therapy," says Chloe. "I was very angry because it wasn't my choice. Eventually, what sorted me out was the friends I made at college and a local therapeutic group. Rather than saying, 'This is terrible, you need to stop right now', which is what everyone else said, they said, 'This is a coping mechanism. It's not great, but we need to work out what's caused it and find other ways for you to cope'. In my case, writing things down, talking to others and squeezing ice cubes can help. I self-harm a lot less now and I do feel I'm starting to move on."

Indeed, if there is one piece of good news around self-harm, it's that most adolescents who self-harm will stop in early adulthood, and often abruptly. "But this shouldn't be a reason not to take it seriously. It's a grave problem, with potentially fatal consequences, and some people continue or relapse," insists Welch.
 

H-KQGE

Dagobah Resident
Some great recent developments for forum members (especially those not fully accustomed to the role of diet & cognitive science in their personal healthcare) from various threads & articles. Here's my train of thought from much reading, (not all of them are being posted though) & my attempt at linking them together...

From the top of this page/thread we move to this, & now this...

_http://www.newswise.com/articles/mount-sinai-study-shows-age-related-cognitive-decline-linked-to-energy-available-to-synapses-in-prefrontal-cortex

Age-Related Cognitive Decline Linked to Energy Available to Synapses in Prefrontal Cortex

Released: 11/27/2013 4:00 PM EST
Source Newsroom: Mount Sinai Medical Center

Newswise — New York, NY – New York, NY – Age-related cognitive decline and changes in the nervous system are closely linked, but up until recently, they were thought to result from the loss of neurons in areas such as the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain important in working memory. A series of papers have shown that the “loss of neurons” concept is simply not true. Now, Mount Sinai scientists have begun to look elsewhere, focusing instead on synaptic health in the prefrontal cortex. Their work, published online in the December 2 issue of the peer-reviewed journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, shows that synaptic health in the brain is closely linked to cognitive decline. Further, the scientists show that estrogen restores synaptic health and also improves working memory.

“We are increasingly convinced that maintenance of synaptic health as we age, rather than rescuing cognition later, is critically important in preventing age-related cognitive decline and Alzheimer’s disease,” said the study’s senior author, John Morrison, PhD, and Dean of Basic Sciences and Professor of the Fishberg Department of Neuroscience and the Friedman Brain Institute, at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai.
In the study, poor working memory in young and aged rhesus monkeys was associated with a higher incidence of malformed donut-shaped mitochondria in presynaptic terminals. Notably, these terminals containing donut-shaped mitochondria formed smaller and weaker synaptic contacts, compared to those with healthy or straight mitochondria. Both the working memory and the malformation of mitochondria were reversed by estrogen treatment.
“We were excited to see that the occurrence of these donut-shaped mitochondria could be reversed with estrogen, which has known antioxidant effects,” said Yuko Hara, PhD, the lead researcher, and Assistant Professor in the Fishberg Department of Neurosciences, at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai.
The researchers studied 29 young and aged rhesus monkeys that were trained to perform a test of working memory referred to as the Delayed Response Test. Next, they examined prefrontal cortex mitochondria, specifically those that supply energy to the synapses, and their role in working memory. Working memory requires the energy-demanding activation of nerve cells in the prefrontal cortex through the complex arrangement of the synapses that interconnect nerve cells.

So with the knowledge & awareness of the role of diet on all of the body's systems, & how it can & does effect the mind, a person (let's just take a soon-to-be mother in her first trimester, so say, seven/eight months that could at least mitigate serious possible damages to her baby) could still fix themselves up somewhat, & their new born. Ok now this, taken from the "DNA -enhancement?" thread...


Psyche said:
But remember, the so called junk DNA has proven not be inactive anymore. Outstanding properties have been discovered in the last few years. “Junk” DNA includes a whole subset of names such as introns, retrotransposable elements, and non-coding RNAs (ncRNAs). In fact, ncRNAs are often located near genes known to be important to both stem cells and cancer, to serve as enhancer elements which promote their gene expression. Stem cells are the cells that have the potential to turn into lots of other cells. So this junk DNA can influence how stem cells specifically differentiate into multiple cell types and in this sense it is now estimated that 80% of our genome is biologically active with only 1% of our genome encoding for proteins:

Quote
_http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/250006.php

A staggering batch of over 30 papers published in Nature, Science, and other journals this month, firmly rejects the idea that, apart from the 1% of the human genome that codes for proteins, most of our DNA is "junk" that has accumulated over time like some evolutionary flotsam and jetsam.

The papers, representing 10 years of work of the ENCODE ("Encyclopedia of DNA Elements") project, completed by hundreds of scientists from dozens of labs around the world, reveal that 80% of the human genome serves some purpose and is biochemically active, for example, in regulating the expression of genes situated nearby.

That was known for some time, but it is now official since last week or so.

Evolutionary speaking, it makes a lot of sense… From the information posted in this session:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,27027.msg330775.html#msg330775 , we learned that the greatest shocks of genomic science was to find that the human genome contains more viral than "human" genes. That is, the human genome is made from thousands of viruses that infected our distant ancestors. They got there by infecting eggs or sperm, inserting their own DNA into ours. Hyperdimensional engineering...

Most of the genetic diversity can be found in virus genes. Scientists agree that there are some 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 viruses in the ocean and it matches almost nothing to any gene from any microbe, animal, plant or other organism, even from any other known virus.


All living things have hundreds or thousands of genes imported by viruses. There are a group of viral species known as retroviruses which insert their genetic material into the host cell’s DNA. When the host cell divides, it copies the virus’s DNA along with its own. Retroviruses have “on switches” that prompt their host cell to make proteins out of nearby genes. Sometimes their switches turn on host genes that ought to be kept shut off, and cancer can result. This is precisely what our junk DNA –ncRNA- seems to be doing “next” to genes that have to do with stem cells and cancer cells.

What is known as endogenous retrovirus – endogenous meaning generated within, are the viruses that lurk in the genomes of just about every major group of vertebrates, from fish to reptiles to mammals. Virologists have found retrovirus-like segments in our human genome and they were able to track its genetic code down to an original functioning virus. The virus was called Phoenix, for the mythical bird that rose from its own ashes.

It is known that part of our junk DNA, the retrotransposable elements, are viral in its origin. It includes the endogenous retroviruses. But it is now argued that ncRNA might be viral in its origin as well. This has interesting implications in the sense that epigenetic control of gene expression involves this junk DNA – ncRNAs. It would mean that our entire junk DNA (98%) might well be very functional epigenetically speaking, and in the induction of regulatory genes that code for stem cells, or for reprogramming o modulating genes known to response to oxidative stress, DNA damage and p53 – a protein that regulates the cell cycle and is implicated in about half of all human cancers.

Evil lectins from carbs can initiate a cascade of events once they attach to the cell “mem-brain” that may lead to attraction of the immune system, cell death, production of chemicals, multiplication of the cell and so forth. It depends. And it might well depend on the adaptation response from the viral-like properties inside the cell, our “junk” DNA.

Harmful lectins - such as the ones found in gluten, soy, dairy, corn – cause inflammation and damage without a defense/immune response which end up being secondary to the initial damage. Some response in quite a drastic way (i.e. autoimmune diseases) others respond in a milder way, constituting thus the wide nature of symptoms among people.

Moreover, wheat’s evil lectin (WGA) and viruses share similar properties. For instance, when the influenza virus incorporates its own genetic material into our cells, the defense/immune system must attack its own virally transformed cell in order to fight the infection. WGA has access to our bodies and to our cells “mem-brain’s” through viral ports. Then they influence gene expression and trigger autoimmune attacks like viruses do. As John B. Symes, D.V.M. pointed out back in 2007 :

Quote
http://dogtorj.com/main-course/viruses-friend-or-foe/viruses-and-lectins/

Our medical histories all line up with this once the role (and ultimate purpose) of viruses in nature and our bodies is grasped. They are not the malicious entities that we have labeled them to be. They are simply doing their job. The noxious stimuli being thrown at them is the real issue. We are literally forcing them into becoming pathogens. In addition to the plethora of obvious offending agents being imbibed, most individuals are compounding matters through poor nutrition, polluted environments, fast-paced lifestyles, and lack of sleep. All of these things add up to self-induced misery. [...]

I have suggested many times that, when reading a paper of genetics, the word “gene” be replaced with the word “virus” to see if that treatise makes more sense. Suddenly, answers to the above questions start coming. Coupled with the knowledge of viral stimulants (e.g. carcinogens, lectins, and other viruses), we can start to see what…or who…the real culprit is.

Mutations in ncRNA are associated with cancer, autism, and Alzheimer’s disease AND ncRNA can sense a viral infection within the cell, giving off signals that indicate the pathogenic virus presence.

An endogenous retrovirus has also been associated with multiple sclerosis, meaning that viral genes that are part of our genome can be “woken up”. As the authors of this study say, "retroviral infections often develop into running battles between the immune system and virus, with the virus mutating repeatedly to avoid the immune system, and the immune system repeatedly catching up. One can see the episodic nature of multiple sclerosis as such a running battle."

It is crucial to understand that what we eat is information the effect epigenetic changes that regulate gene expression, and that can be passed from generation to generation.

Also, the one thing that may be contributing to mitochondrial dysfunction is latent viral infections such as the ones of the herpes family. That plus, our toxic food and environment makes a very bad combination.

Herpes simplex virus is a widespread human pathogen and it goes right after our mitochondrial DNA. A latent viral infection might be driving the brain cell loss in neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's disease. Members of the herpes virus family, including cytomegalovirus and Epstein-Barr virus which are most have, can go after our mitochondrial DNA, causing neurodegenerative diseases by mitochondrial dysfunction. But a ketogenic diet is the one thing that would help stabilize mDNA since mitochondria runs the best on fat fuel. As it happens, Alzheimer's disease is the one condition where a ketogenic diet has a profound positive effect.

The role of mitochondrial dysfunction in our “modern” age maladies is a staggering one. Our mitochondrial energetic sources are essential if we are to heal from chronic ailments and we need to stabilize our "viral" genome so that epigenetic changes can be unlocked in a beneficial way.

It is our mitochondria the one that lies at the interface between the fuel from foods that come from our environment and our bodies’ energy demands. And it is a metabolism based on fat fuel, a ketone metabolism, the one which signals epigenetic changes that maximizes energetic output within our mitochondria and help us heal.

A ketogenic diet promotes the die-off of pathogenic viruses through autophagy. It seems to be the key to stabilize our junk DNA ("viral" DNA) and activate it in a positive way.

Well, "hyperdimensional engineering" doesn't leave us with nothing. Our genetics are malleable to an extent, the same for our environment. "They are one & the same" according to the C's. (talking about the mind & environment I believe)

Note: used Psyche's original bolding, mine are in red.

From there, on to this final article...

_http://www.scripps.edu/news/press/2013/20131203wiseman.html
Scripps Research Institute Scientists Discover New Survival Mechanism for Stressed Mitochondria

Findings Shed Light on Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, Cancer

LA JOLLA, CA—December 3, 2013—Scientists at The Scripps Research Institute (TSRI) have discovered a natural mechanism that cells use to protect mitochondria, the tiny but essential “power plants” that provide chemical energy for cells throughout the body. Damage to mitochondria is thought to be a significant factor in common neurodegenerative disorders, cancer and even the aging process. The TSRI researchers’ discovery could lead to new methods for protecting mitochondria from such damage, thereby improving human health.

“The mechanism that we’ve identified potentially gives us another way to treat the many disorders that involve mitochondrial dysfunction,” said R. Luke Wiseman, the Arlene and Arnold Goldstein Assistant Professor in TSRI’s Department of Molecular & Experimental Medicine.

Wiseman was the senior author of the new study, which appears in the December 3, 2013 issue of the journal Cell Metabolism.

Power Plants of the Cell

Mitochondria are microscopic reactors that burn oxygen to make ATP, the basic unit of chemical energy in cells. As such, they are the major consumers of the oxygen we breathe.

But the oxygen molecules concentrated within mitochondria are highly reactive, tending to modify proteins in unwanted ways, changing them into abnormal shapes and often causing them to become dysfunctional and clump together. If this misfolding and aggregation gets out of control—induced by factors including genetic mutations, aging and environmental toxins such as pesticides—the result can be the failure of mitochondria and cell death.

To help protect themselves from excess protein misfolding and aggregation, cells have evolved signaling pathways that protect mitochondria during stress. These pathways primarily function by increasing the production of mitochondrial “chaperone” molecules that help keep proteins within mitochondria folded properly and protease enzymes that can cut up misfolded and aggregated mitochondrial proteins.

“These signaling pathways that regulate mitochondrial ‘proteostasis’ mechanisms, as we call them, have so far been poorly characterized in mammalian cells, but on the whole, they seem very important for cellular survival under stress,” said Wiseman.

Reducing the Burden

In the new study, Wiseman and members of his laboratory, including first authors Kelly Rainbolt and Neli Atanassova focused on a third mechanism of mitochondrial proteostasis regulation: the reduced “import” of proteins into mitochondria.

“We predicted that reducing the population of newly imported proteins entering mitochondria would reduce the burden on mitochondrial chaperones and proteases during cellular stress,”
said Rainbolt.

The team started by examining a protein complex, TIM23, which works as one of the chief importers of proteins into the inner section, or matrix, of mitochondria. TIM23 contains a core subunit called Tim17, which—uniquely in mammals—has two almost-identical variants, Tim17A and Tim17B, that incorporate into distinct complexes. The researchers used an environmental toxin, arsenite, to induce a general stress response in cultured mammalian cells and monitored alterations in Tim17A and Tim17B.

The results showed that Tim17A levels in the cells’ mitochondria fell sharply in response to arsenite, while Tim17B levels were unaffected. Intriguingly, the authors found that the decrease in Tim17A was induced downstream of an established biologic signaling pathway that protects cells during stress. The decrease in Tim17A occurred not only because Tim17A production was reduced, but also because Tim17A was degraded more rapidly than usual. The team soon found that a mitochondrial protease, YME1L, is responsible for the stress-induced degradation of Tim17A.

“The capacity for an established, protective biologic signaling pathway to induce Tim17A degradation indicated to us that Tim17A degradation is likely a protective mechanism to promote mitochondrial proteostasis in response to pathologic insults,” said Rainbolt.

In fact, the scientists showed that reducing Tim17A protein levels increased cellular survival in response to stresses that directly challenge mitochondrial proteostasis and function.


Since alterations in mitochondrial proteostasis mechanisms are common to many human diseases, including cancer and neurodegenerative disorders such as Alzheimer’s disease and Parkinson’s disease, Wiseman notes that the identification of new cellular mechanisms regulating mitochondrial proteostasis, such as Tim17A degradation, suggests potential new therapeutic approaches to attenuate mitochondrial dysfunction in these diseases.
 

Gaby

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
I found this documentary fascinating:

Stress, Portrait of a Killer - Full Documentary (2008)
http://www.sott.net/article/272446-Stress-Portrait-of-a-Killer-Full-Documentary-2008

Here is Sott's comment: The excellent presentation of the work of Robert Sapolsky in this documentary spells out and clarifies how the dominant baboons in our society, the psychopaths in power, cause the deterioration of our mental and physical health by stressing us out (and to death) with their bullying tactics.

Now, unless the psychopaths who rule over us somehow disappear, we have to take care of ourselves by at least learning to cope with the constant stress emanating down from the top. One way to begin is by applying the simple techniques of Éiriú Eolas, which can be used daily as an antidote to stress, not only to preserve and optimize our mental and physical health, but also to give us the clarity of mind for further studies on the subject of psychopathy. The understanding gleaned from such study of the predators in our midst would provide us with the skills necessary to navigate a world ruled by dominant baboons without succumbing to the deadly effects of stress that their inhuman behavior causes.

Did you also notice what happened to the baboon community when all the dominant baboons ate the tuberculosis tainted food and died? Suddenly the society changed from a hierarchical one, where violence was perpetrated from the top down and the lower ranks suffered from stress and heart problems, to a society where social affiliation and cooperation prevailed, and no one within it had to suffer from stress anymore. Just imagine how us humans can transform our society if our dominant baboons are no longer above us.

**********

I found that very interesting. Even though the subordinated baboons had a compromised immune system due to stress, it was all the alphas that died from the tuberculosis "plague". Imagine something like that happening at a global scale... That would be a Golden Age indeed!

If I understood correctly, all the baboons ate tuberculosis tainted food, but in that particular event, it was the dominant ones who died. Coincidence? A microcosmic miracle? Physiologically speaking, it should be the other way around. Or maybe not?

It reminded me of some techniques used in medicine to make an organ more resilient to surgical stress. In this case, the heart is subjected to "controlled" stress prior to surgery so it will develop enduring mechanisms. Then, once that is done, the heart is then subjected to the maximum stress: heart surgery. In this way there are better results, less complications, less mortality. Well, I'm simplifying here, but still wondered if a similar analogy could be applied at a bigger scale.

Could psychopaths be less resilient to a plague? Just wondering.
 

Odyssey

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Hmm. I suppose if you look at the effects of plague from just a dietary point of I view I wouldn't think that psychopaths would be more or less susceptible to plague than anyone else. Put another way, I dunno if their psychological makeup would make them more susceptible. However, like the dominant baboons, their greed and need to dominate others will lead to thier downfall. But it's all linked: the earth needs a cleansing from the paths and their lies and destruction, comets bring destruction and plague. There have to be some in-the-know psychopaths who smoke and do the keto diet. I spose, as with everything it depends on the person.
 

Gaby

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Odyssey said:
Hmm. I suppose if you look at the effects of plague from just a dietary point of I view I wouldn't think that psychopaths would be more or less susceptible to plague than anyone else. Put another way, I dunno if their psychological makeup would make them more susceptible. However, like the dominant baboons, their greed and need to dominate others will lead to thier downfall. But it's all linked: the earth needs a cleansing from the paths and their lies and destruction, comets bring destruction and plague. There have to be some in-the-know psychopaths who smoke and do the keto diet. I spose, as with everything it depends on the person.

The interesting thing of the baboon experiment in this documentary, is that they pretty much ate the same thing so there were no (or less) co-founding factors in that regard. At least for this particular study, they were able to pin down stress as the cause of atherosclerosis and abdominal fat, independently from dietary intake. I think this is what makes it most interesting that it was the stress-free dominant baboons who happened to die in the tuberculosis "plague".

But yes, we do have so many factors at play here, especially when it comes to humanity at large.
 

SeekinTruth

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Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Yeah, it could be that the more stressed monkeys lower in the hierarchy became more resilient. But another thing I thought they said was that those who had the least social tendencies and bonds to the rest of the baboons, i.e. the dominant alphas, died out completely. Maybe that was a factor too? What if being totally self-serving and not caring at all about others somehow played a role in why all the dominants died out?
 
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