Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

[Novelis]

Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

I wonder if this could mean that a "dark martial art" involves seduction via illusion as a primary element - ie. obtaining "secret techniques" that lead to personal power or "invincibility" being the "hook" used by the master to manipulate student. 353535 code etc.... Lobaczewski's story of the spellbinding "professor" comes to mind as well - the transpersonification of individuals susceptible to such.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "dark martial art" per se; all martial arts could be used for positive and negative purposes, that's obvious I think. However, I WOULD state that there are certain martial arts that are more dangerous to get into, in terms of destroying one's potential for spiritual evolution that is. Tai chi is the most befuddling one I've come across, there are SO many books and authors that claim to have the real "secret techniques".

As with all internal arts like Tai Chi, (All martial arts are internal at an advanced level) subtle movements can generate a lot of power, I think the reasons for this lies in techniques of releasing Qi, which can be extremely hard to understand, and someone inexperienced in Qi Gong simply can't "see" what the master is doing to generate such power.
In this way, secrecy I think in is a part of every style of martial arts to some degree, since the knowledge about the subtleties can only be passed down to the few students who practice long and hard enough to obtain these "secrets".

There is a lot of noise out there regarding the correct application of Tai Chi and its philosophy. The methodology of how to attain the highest levels of Tai Chi is shrouded in a mist of secrecy (Although that doesn't really put me off, the more the PTB try to cover it up, the more convinced I am that there is something valuable to find).

Interestingly, the term Tai Chi (meaning supreme ultimate) is referring to an art that wasn't originally called Tai Chi at all, modern "Tai Chi" is a watered down form of a greater whole, and it is this greater whole I am trying to grasp, as in, "Tai Chi" in it's real sense, not the various official forms that hold the name Tai Chi.

But alas, many predators could easily use the name claim to know the secrets and fool people who are seeking the truth of this art, and if one's critical faculties aren't intact, one could easily fall prey to predatory spellbinders out there, and there are plenty of them, I've encountered a few of these types. It is sad, but "Tai Chi", as it is practiced today is not much different from all the New Age Cointelpro outfits out there. I will speak about one of them here.

The subject came up once in my Tai Chi class about false teachings of Tai Chi, my teacher mentioned one style named Lee style (From the Lee family), she stated that this art is a false teaching of Tai Chi and yet one of the most widely practiced form in the west. I was intrigued so I enquired further, she went on to say that the guy who "invented" the art was a taxi driver in London who made up a story that he met an old Chinese gentleman in a park who taught him the art and eventually entrusted him with all of the "secrets", this sounded dodgy to me. A website I found had this to say about Lee Tai Chi:

Tai Chi in itself is has no single 'method', but rather a number of different styles that have evolved along with its growth. This site is predominantly Yang Style because, simply that is what I, the two sensei's by whom I have had the pleasure of being taught, and those who are connected to the Southampton City Dojo practice. This does not, however distinguish us as separate from the whole of what is tai chi, nor makes us feel that our style is superior to any of the others - just a different aspect of the same.
The Yang and Ch'en styles developed around the same period, by members of the same family - although Ch'en seems to have declined almost completely. Wu style (developed by Yu-Seong Wu) practised very much smaller circular movements with smaller arm stretches, and again seems to have declined. The Sun and Lee styles possibly make up (with the Yang style) the three main forms practiced today. Because of the fact that the entire Lee form uses very little movement across the floor (unlike Yang), it is often commonly known as 'Square Yard Tai Chi' as it can be performed within this boundary, and I have even heard it called the 'wardrobe' style, alluding to the ability to practice it inside a wardrobe - although actually why you would want to do this is not neccessarily clear. Whilst the Yang form likes to spread out, and requires some small adjustments to movements to make it workable within a relatively confined area, the Lee form has the advantage that it was specifically designed for small spaces, and for those who are very limited in this aspect could start looking for Lee instructors first (or see my article adapting the Yang form...).
The Lee form is possibly the most 'Taoist' of all the tai chi styles, rooted deeply within this form of religion/philosophy that has been around in China for, according to some, up to ten thousand years. Certainly the eight health philosophies known as the 'eight strands of the brocade' that deal directly with equilibrium and balance of energies (yin/yang) are a fundamental aspects of Lee. It has been said that this is the most 'spiritual' style still in existence, I may be forgiven for leaving this open to debate. Lee style does however revolve around perfect harmony and balance within its movements. While the specific evolution of the current form is not clear, it has deep roots that date back to around 1,000 BC, where it is said that it was created by Ho-Hsieh Lee - the first of the Lee family that would practice it in China right into the 1930s, when Chan Kam Lee moved to London and started classes there.

(From http://www.soton.ac.uk/~maa1/chi/taichi/lee.htm)

From what I've seen, it is true that the art which originated all of the different styles of Tai Chi split up into family styles and have gone into decline, but, with Yang, Wu, Sun and Chen style, one could actually trace back the line of lineage so that they all converge at one point or another, but this isn't the case with Lee style from what I've seen, yet the author above generalises without looking into what the originators of each style claims.

I wonder what makes Lee style the most "spiritual" style of Tai Chi. What are it's special "secret techniques"? And most importantly, what does the person closest to its original source claim it comes from? The man who is the most senior in this art is called Chee Soo; I found a site in which his daughter claims:

My Father, Chee Soo, was born in 1919 to a Chinese Father and English Mother. At around the age of 7, due to the death of his parents, he was sent to an orphanage where he spent the next 8 years. His siblings faired better; they were looked after by an elderly spinster and Chee spent many happy weekends with them. The orphanage decided that Chee would stand a better chance with work if he was to change his name, so on their advice he took the maiden name of his mother which was Gibbs and his Grandfather's name of Clifford and he was known for over 30 years as Clifford Gibbs.

At the age of 14, while kicking a ball in Hyde Park, Chee accidentally bumped into a Chinese gentleman by the name of Chan Kam Lee (from Shandong Province, a province famous for its martial arts). This man took pity on this young orphan boy and befriended him. In time he taught Chee the Feng Shou (Hand of the Wind) system of Kung Fu, Li Style Taijiquan and Shuai Chiao (Chinese Wrestling), which gave Chee a great sense of achievement.

After the death of Chan Kam Lee my father took over the position of Chief Instructor to continue to promote these arts. He registered the British Wushu Association in 1958; he was probably one of the first in this country to use the name Wushu. Although he took over the position he promised not to personally teach these arts for ten years. The difference in the spelling of the surname Li / Lee is that the Chinese spelling is Li and the English is Lee.

(From http://www.wu-kung-federation.co.uk/wu-kung/articles-lavinia.asp)

Now, I've looked on the internet and haven't found any discussions about the validity of Lee style tai chi or what he claims, if anyone has found interesting data regarding this, please let me know. For now, I am going on the words of my Tai chi teacher, which I think is pretty trust worthy (For reasons I won't get into for now).

She said that the creator was a former Taxi driver now calling himself Chee Soo, he apparently made up a Chinese name to sound more credible/authentic, which puts a spin on what his daughter says about his name change.

What about the master whom taught him the art? I read that Chee Soo claims that he died while travelling on a ship... OK, so Chee Soo's story is that he met a Chinese guy in a park, who was the only guy in the world who knew about an ancient practice, who then entrusted ONLY Chee Soo with the secrets, then died on a ship somewhere... Hmmm.

According to my teacher, Chee Soo at first said his martial art was a branch of Aikido, but when the Aikido association saw this art they said it didn't resemble Aikido in the slightest, it was then that Chee Soo renamed it Tai Chi.

He currently runs an organization called the Taoist cultural arts association, which is the organization the University of Leeds uses to teach and promote Tai Chi. This is surprising as I thought a University would look for the most authentic version of the art they could find, not this jumble of bits and pieces that passes for Tai Chi.
I know one guy, who goes to Lee style classes every week, so I asked him about the practices they perform, and to be honest, it just sounded like standard methods of training taken from numerous sources; some methods resemble meditation practices I've seen in various other martial arts. For example, they practice a Chi Gong called the "Eight pieces of Brocade", which Chee Soo Claims is a practice that helps Tai Chi Training. But, in my research, the "Eight Pieces of Brocade" was originally made to complement Xing2 Yi4 Quan2, or Mind-form boxing, and is now widely practiced by the general population as a health art. If one looks at the movements in fact, they don't seem to resemble Tai Chi much.

There are other Chi Gong practices in Lee style, but they look like practices from a variety of sources that aren't much of a "secret" after all. I think the point of Lee style is to hook people into thinking that they are learning "secret techniques" that isn't available elsewhere, whereas in fact I've seen that their practices can be found practiced by common people throughout Taiwan and other Eastern countries, maybe they are relying/preying on the ignorance of westerners who don't know much about Eastern practices.

Further more, my teacher told me that in Lee style classes, students are told to only read Chee Soo's books instead of looking into all sources regarding Tai Chi. If Lee style is piece of the Tai Chi whole, why would it not benefit the student to gain a wider perspective into Tai Chi by studying different styles? Apparently, a student could go for training courses and "master" Tai Chi in a few weeks! Become "spiritual" for only £9.99!! What a bargain!

But perhaps the most shocking thing I heard from my teacher is Chee Soo's claim of where Tai Chi originally comes from, which he says was taught to humans by GIANTS wearing gold plated armour! Nephilim? Interesting, I was reading in secret history of the world about how spear originally came from Cro-Magnon humans, who were physically superior to us, could they be the "giants" who taught us Kung Fu originally? Just speculating of course...

Certainly it seems that this art primarily promotes secrecy, and I have only had a glimpse into what the practices are like; I have a friend who practiced Ba Gua a while ago who talked to me about what the later stages of Lee Style Tai Chi is about. He said that at an advanced level, students actually can "suck Qi" out of people by just touching them, which indeed sounds like a dark practice and contradicts every piece of information I have read so far about Tai Chi fighting applications. Clearly Lee Style is tapping into higher sources for this (Need I say STS sources?). I wonder what the truth is of the matter. The problem is, with a subject like martial arts, very little would be written down regarding the real source of it.

Just on a side note, I'd like to thank Henry See for the article: Spiritual Predator: Prem Rewat AKA Maharaji, which is such a valuable resource if one wishes to discern who is likely to be a predator in this confusing world trying to find a genuine adept. His article is directly relevant in this search since there are many "masters" of Tai Chi who are clearly in it for psychopathic reasons.

 

[atreides]

Long post man...

Have you thought to look a bit farther back? What if all of Tai Chi/"Gong Fu"/Karate are really splinters of a true teaching that were coopted?

I disagree that there aren't bad and good martial arts, there are objectively evil martial arts, those that are founded on principles that preclude the ability to be impeccable, in my opinion, all asian martial arts are inherently evil, or at least were founded on evil principles and hide behind a sort of pseudo pacifist waving hands and washing arses mentality, as if soft == good.

In my personal opinion, I am wholly and completely convinced that there are no secrets in any martial art, that their special talents and abilities fall down to experience and some other principles, in essence, they are all either conscious or unconscious conmen performing a few paltry parlour tricks and claiming to use magic.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

I disagree that there aren't bad and good martial arts, there are objectively evil martial arts, those that are founded on principles that preclude the ability to be impeccable, in my opinion, all asian martial arts are inherently evil, or at least were founded on evil principles and hide behind a sort of pseudo pacifist waving hands and washing arses mentality, as if soft == good.

Can you elaborate? How does an "evil" martial art differ from a "good" one? And does the "rule of 3" apply here at all in terms of good/evil/context that decides? If so, how is it reconciled with "inherently evil", which I understand to be "evil from conception"? Mr. Miyagi says "fighting not good. But if must fight... win." Does this mean that any fighting that includes the domination/control of someone (whether it be through weapons or using body as weapon) is inherently "evil" simply by definition of the activity and its immediate results/goal? Of course there are also times when we are confronted with an option to commit an "immediate evil" in order to service a "greater good". It doesn't change the fact that the immediate consequence of the immediate action is inherently STS. But sometimes STS means could justify an STO goal. A very simple case is probably channeling itself as Laura did. C's said it is STS until it is shared in some form with others. So while "squiring knowledge" is STS, it becomes STO once shared. And I dunno about most other possible examples, but this particular one seems to be impossible to escape. You can't give what you do not have, you *must* have knowledge to give it to someone, so one way another, that knowledge has to "get in your head" before it can "get out" and do any good to anyone. And perhaps in the yin-yang symbol, the black dot might represent this very necessity that in the end, you still have to serve yourself or you will be useless to anyone, useless to the "STO side" as a whole.

RA also said:

RA: [In a thought war] The negative become depleted through failure to manipulate, and the positive become depleted through failure to accept what is given. (B1, 214)

QUESTION: What is meant by "failure to accept what was given"?

RA: The most accepting and loving energy would be to so love those who wished to manipulate that those entities were surrounded and engulfed, transformed by positive energies. This, however, being a battle of equals, the Confederation is aware that it cannot, on equal footing, allow itself to be manipulated in order to remain purely positive, for then though pure it would not be of any consequence, having been placed by the so-called powers of darkness under the heel, as you may say.

So STO is weakened having to deny certain requests in order to serve a greater goal of remaining in greater service to all and continue to provide knowledge to all those who ask. I guess the "black dot" can become less and less with higher density, but never completely disappear. On 3rd density, sometimes the "necessary evil" could even mean overpowering someone physically in a fight, something that probably is never necessary on 5th or 6th density STO (not sure about 4th). But anyway I'm off on a tangent here, what is an inherently evil or inherently good martial art?

 

[Pierre]

Apparently we are dealing here with two different but correlated couples qualifying martial arts. Genuine VS non genuine and STO VS STS.

Genuine martial art could be described as the set of technics leading a student to the development and unfication of his centers (assembly point displacement, energetic body development and impeccability according to Castanedan terminology)

Non genuine martial arts can be called (fight) sports. They can be entertaining, provide beneficial physical outcomes (strength, flexibility, quickness,...) and bring effective fighting technics.

STO martial art could be considered as the one that provide and teach STO values to the students, while STS martial art serves the opposite ones.

It's a bit like the difference between an hero and an assassin. The assassin uses the art in order to attack, to destroy, to control, to rule. The hero uses the art simply to defend himself, to help, to protect. STO genuine martial art is like a rose, it's about harmony, it's about impeccability. Although, despite soft appearances if you grab it without care, thorns will pierce your finger.

Those two couples (STO/STS and genuine/non genuine) are interrelated. Before "fusioning" (reaching impeccability), one individual is the slave of his centers activities (the STS oriented predator's mind) . It's only when a practitioner reaches "impeccability" that he becomes able to choose consciouscly to walk the STO path or the STS path.

Screening phase is difficult because the art quality varies within one art from one school to another one, within one school from one master to another one.

Like G. said the presence of a Master is compulsory because of small essential visble details (role of thumbs or tongue during chi cong exercises for example), some invisible things (see when Don Juan hits Carlos back for instance) and also after a couple of years the teaching must be customized according to the specificities of the student.

A way to identify a genuine tai chi class is to monitor the effect on the top of the head. Most books about Tai Chi mention this little pinch at the top of the head. If after months of dedicated practice the practictioner don't genuinely feel something there then it's not a genuine martial master/school/art. As stated previously genuine martial arts stimulate the activity of higher centers.

Off course here we enter the realm of esoterism/internal work, there's nothing provable, nothing visible.

 

[Novelis]

Have you thought to look a bit farther back? What if all of Tai Chi/"Gong Fu"/Karate are really splinters of a true teaching that were co-opted?

I am no historian I'm afraid, and the history of such arts reaches FAR back deep into the mists of antiquity as far as I know. I don't really know how to discern what actually took place such a long time ago and learn about how the arts evolved/degenerated over time. Are you proposing that there is such a method or a place where one can find out? I think books like SHOTW have filled more gaps so far than any other book I've come across, but to actually "see" what the "physical" movements (if these arts spring from when humans were more ethereal in semi 4d) were before all these arts diverged from the source, one needs to not belong to 3d reality. Right now I am practicing the only fragments I have access to.

I disagree that there aren't bad and good martial arts, there are objectively evil martial arts, those that are founded on principles that preclude the ability to be impeccable, in my opinion, all Asian martial arts are inherently evil, or at least were founded on evil principles and hide behind a sort of pseudo pacifist waving hands and washing arses mentality, as if soft == good.

I haven't come across teachings that strive for impeccability myself, but I have read material from various people that propose that striving for perfection in Qi Gong is an illusion, but one can strive to gain competency.

I haven't read/experienced what you have that makes you conclude the idea that all Asian martial arts are inherently evil, and I don't want to make assumptions about what you know. I'd appreciate your insights into how this is the case, and I'd like to know if you think there is a way of practicing these arts while separating yourself from the evil foundations from which they sprung from.
To elaborate, look at the Tao Te Ching or ZEN for example, most of the teachings seem to derive from mere observations of the natural world, like the idea that the soft in the universe overcomes the hard. (I don't have the interpretation that Soft = good, only that the yielding overcomes the firm naturally, which has nothing to do with good and evil) I think the observations are deep and profound, so where is the underpinning STS root that makes its fruit rotten? Does it invalidate the teaching as a whole? Can one still gain from these teachings if one is aware of the nature of STS in the detail required? Or do you think it is the case that the devil hidden within the details are so subtle, that one should avoid these teachings all together for the possibility of falling into traps? Maybe the fact that these teachings appear to be vast is the grand illusion?

So STO is weakened having to deny certain requests in order to serve a greater goal of remaining in greater service to all and continue to provide knowledge to all those who ask. I guess the "black dot" can become less and less with higher density, but never completely disappear.

What about the world beyond polarity? as in the empty circle? (7th density?)

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Another thing to consider is knowledge. It is neither good nor evil, it's all about utilization and results of same. Would this apply to martial arts? Although you can use knowledge in a purely STO way, martial arts still require someone to kick someone's ass, which already makes it at least "immediately STS", even if it's only self defense or protection of someone. Unless you do not restrict martial arts to physical combat scenarios, and consider the possible esoteric or energetic implications, assuming a martial art has any such aspect to itself outside just combat. Take something like Reiki and its symbols - could those symbols, or something similar, be "drawn" through body movements for any energetic effects?

The thing about STS is that it's not that it's not effective. You can be STS and very very knowledgeble. But it just goes back to utilization of that knowledge, what your focus is. But it's still knowledge all the same - knowledge is knowledge as objective reality is objective reality. So maybe an STO and STS martial art, if such a difference does exist, might not differ in terms of softness vs hardness - they are both still martial arts and can be equally effective if one looks only at the motions, just like STO knowledge is the same as STS knowledge, and if you look at just the effectiveness and objectivity of the knowledge itself, it is equal assuming that it's objective knowledge in both cases. But the difference is probably the focus/direction/utilization/approach, whether it be knowledge, or the martial art. And this could probably also mean that, with respect to having a different goal, an STO martial art WOULD have an aspect to it that is more than just combat, an aspect that's designed to lead to growth of the individual that learns and uses the art. And this aspect would come with a philosophy that should closely resemble STO philosophy (ideally it WOULD be STO philosophy, but it cannot be due to distortions, so I say at least resemble), as you say, values.

But more than just values, the approach and utilization of energy should be different. We know STS tries to control the creative force but STO tries to work with it, not to bend it to its will. In fact, now that I think about it, just having a fundementally different goal/direction in its conception, the STO martial art would have to result in a different technique, technique that radiates/reflects STO philosophy and predisposition to energy use and direction, like achieving harmony with the universe instead of bending it to your will, etc. It doesn't mean it will be soft or ineffective as a martial art, just different.

And as for 7th density, I'd guess it doesn't apply there because there is no "self" and no "other self", just infinity, and in that, unity. So no "interaction of energies" as interaction implies some sort of separation. In fact, 7th density isn't really useful for us, as far as I can tell, except to shatter limiting illusions and dogmas that pose that creation is based on finity, limitation, a beginning and an end, separation (like god vs all else) in its "core" etc. In fact, the word "creation" is paradoxically deceptive and true at the same time, or so it seems. It's not creating because it was never really "created" because this implies that before that it didn't exist. But at the same time, it has, is, and will forever be "created" because it is infinite, and infinity never runs out of "stuff to create" and so forever will continue "creating" with no end, at least from the perspective of densities 1 through 6, osit. Most "rules" that apply to objective reality below 7th density, that have to do with interaction and polarities, probably don't apply to 7th as it has neither. Just some thoughts.

Also, what is "impeccability"? This term has been used a few times and I'm having some trouble understanding it in the context used. Could someone please elaborate on that?

 

[Beau]

Also, what is "impeccability"? This term has been used a few times and I'm having some trouble understanding it in the context used. Could someone please elaborate on that?

Don Juan used this term in describing some of the attributes of the warrior.

From the Cass Glossary:

Castaneda uses this word to describe the virtues of a warrior. Impeccability is the systematic, correct and efficient use of energy. To understand the word, we must see it in the context of Castaneda's writings and system of values.

Impeccability is related to being free of self-importance, being internally streamlined, unambiguous, in control of self. On one hand the impeccable warrior is traveling light, without carrying baggage of assumptions, preconceptions, beliefs, internal considering and so forth. We could say Impeccability has to do with being an empty vessel that can receive higher influences, although Castaneda does not quite put it in these terms. On the other hand, the warrior practicing impeccability has a definite path and is in no way a random or arbitrary entity. Impeccability is a combination of commitment to a path and flexibility and acuity of observation and freedom of choice.

link: http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=397&lsel=I

 

[atreides]

Hi Scio:

The rule of three applies to everything. Yes, domination and control is inherently evil. It is faulty logic to say that an evil now will beget a good later, that is expectation, an attempt controlling the future. The future is alive and doesn't take too kindly to you meddling in its affairs. The STO side is fundamentally useless for our level of awareness, hence the predominance of STSTO in various communications. To use a more acceptable terminology, there are some arts that are evil, all of them are STS, but some of them were created for less than honorable gains, even for STS. Some arts were intentionally fabricated and manipulated simply to make money, in fact most schools are thus. This is not a new thing, even Shinmen Musashi writes about it in Go Shin Ro. So when I say evil, I don't mean STS, I mean evil, like ya know, evil.

Hi Axel:

You post comes back to a conversation we had on your last visit, I still don't think I entirely agree with what you say, but I can agree that you are essentially correct, especially in separating fight sports from martial arts, which is a necessary distinction. I also wholeheartedly agree on modifying teachings to fit the time and student, as don Juan with the changing of terminology in order to maintain meanings over periods of temporal distance. I do not agree with your assessment of telling a real Tai Chi class from a fraudulent one, as we are infinately capable of manufacturing such evidence as you described here and before. I would counter with the idea that true teachings can be applied immediately, and the the teaching is robust, and scalable to as many levels of interaction as we can imagine and comprehend. I have seen and felt many strange things, things even stranger and stronger than what you have described to me and I can say, with certainty in myself, that results must come from two things interacting, results than can be observed, and mulled over, not just by ourselves or "fellow believers" but by third parties .
As to whether or not martial arts teachings should bring us closer to our higher centers, shure, I agree.

Hi Novelis:

I am no historian either, just curious to the max. I disagree to an extent, as the soft and yielding over coming the hard is only partially true. In the immediate it is not always thus. Glorifying the soft and placing it above all else is in my opinion: evil.

As for seventh density, you are so far away from 7th density, and you will die and be born so many times between here and then that it is a waste of time to even discuss it. There are more important matters at hand, stop dreaming about going to heaven and get there already :)

 

[atreides]

Hi Scio:

In response to your second post, yep, the impec def from the glossary about does the trick.

Like I said to Novelis, you are really jumping the gun with this sts/sto and 7th density stuff.

 

[kenlee]

Also, what is "impeccability"? This term has been used a few times and I'm having some trouble understanding it in the context used. Could someone please elaborate on that?

I see impeccability as proper use of 'third force' where this third force joins opposites together into a proper unified action. I think getting in touch with our inner conscience is this 'third force' and decisions and actions based on this part of us can minimize our own conflicts with the world around us or what Mouravieff calls the General Law. Gurdjieff spoke of becoming aware of our own death while simultaneously becoming aware of the mortality of others. The emotional intensity of this awareness also leads to empathy along with what I think Castaneda called "the mood of the warrior"

Personally I find this "mood of the warrior" to be most difficult in everyday life, yet it is absolutely necessary, since 'life' runs on programs that keep us asleep (and content) which can divorce us from our own instincts of self preservation. But it's these very instincts that is the very 'stuff' of our awareness.

From the Rolling Stones 'Street Fighting Man':

Evrywhere I hear the sound of marching, charging feet, boy
cause summers here and the time is right for fighting in the street, boy
But what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
cause in sleepy london town
Theres just no place for a street fighting man
No

Hey! think the time is right for a palace revolution
But where I live the game to play is compromise solution...

People sense a threat but they are 'self calmed' with compromised solutions by the well funded talking heads in the media with their point/counterpoints that go nowhere. Yet peoples instincts are telling them that there is something wrong, there is danger here, but there is no place for a 'street fighting man' in this self calmed society. Nobody wants to hear about it from this 'street fighting man.'

Without this instinct we live in a dream world out of touch with reality. People in society simply don't realize that what they often call 'happiness' is simply the viral transmission of a program to keep people unaware and asleep. The spreading of this program is what makes them "happy."

I remember there was a scene in Bruce Lee's movie 'Enter The Dragon' where the one handed villain Master Han was fighting the martial artist Williams on Han's island. While Williams and Han were in the midst of a deadly battle they both crashed through a door of an opium den where there were people in the room all smoking opium. As the people in the room watched this deadly battle taking place right in front of them they just all giggled as if they were in a dream world and they were completely out of touch with the reality of the violence taking place right in front of them. They were out of touch with their own instinct, and they lived in a dream world. They lost touch with the basic 'stuff' of awareness. It caused them to hallucinate where they were seeing things that did not exist which kept them from seeing what really existed, that is, they could not see the real violence taking place right before them, the "terror of the situation." They were not even seeing a reflection of something that was real but rather they were seeing an hallucination, a false sense perception that blinded them to the reality before them.

So it's is a constant struggle to maintain this instinctual awareness and the martial arts can be an aid in cultivating this awareness. For me, proper development of this awareness is impeccability.

Gurdjieff spoke of this impeccability in his book
Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandson where Beelzebub's Grandson Hassein asks Beelzebub what hope there is for the salvation of people on Earth:

Beelzebub replied:

The sole means now for the saving of the beings of the planet Earth would be to implant again into their presences a new organ, an organ like Kundabuffer, but this time of such properties that every one of these unfortunates during the process of existence should constantly sense and be cognizant of the inevitability of his own death as well as of the death of everyone upon whom his eyes or attention rests.

Only such a sensation and such a cognizance can now destroy the egoism completely crystallized in them that has swallowed up the whole of their Essence and also that tendency to hate others which flows from it—the tendency, namely, which engenders all those mutual relationships existing there, which serve as the chief cause of all their abnormalities unbecoming to three-brained beings and maleficent for them themselves and for the whole of the Universe.

This 'new organ' is probably what Gurdjieff refered to as conscience

Castaneda, who I'm pretty sure modeled his Don Juan's teachings after Gurdjieff's teachings spoke of this 'mood of a warrior' in his book "Journey to Ixland' (quoted below):

JOURNEY TO IXTLAN -- THE MOOD OF A WARRIOR

I drove up to don Juan's house on Thursday, August 31, 1961, and before I even had a chance to greet him he stuck his head through the window of my car, smiled at me, and said, "We must drive quite a distance to a place of power and it's almost noon."

He opened the door of my car, sat down next to me in the front seat, and directed me to drive south for about seventy miles; we then turned east onto a dirt road and followed it until we had reached the slopes of the mountains. I parked my car off the road in a depression don Juan picked because it was deep enough to hide the car from view. From there we went directly to the top of the low hills, crossing a vast flat desolate area.

When it got dark don Juan selected a place to sleep. He demanded complete silence.

The next day we ate frugally and continued our journey in an easterly direction. The vegetation was no longer desert shrubbery but thick green mountain bushes and trees.

Around mid-afternoon we climbed to the top of a gigantic bluff of conglomerate rock which looked like a wall. Don Juan sat down and signaled me to sit down also.

"This is a place of power," he said after a moment's pause. "This is the place where warriors were buried a long time ago."

At that instant a crow flew right above us, cawing. Don Juan followed its flight with a fixed gaze.

I examined the rock and was wondering how and where the warriors had been buried when he tapped me on the shoulder.

"Not here, you fool," he said, smiling. "Down there."

He pointed to the field right below us at the bottom of the bluff, towards the east; he explained that the field in question was surrounded by a natural corral of boulders. From where I was sitting I saw an area which was perhaps a hundred yards in diameter and which looked like a perfect circle. Thick bushes covered its surface, camouflaging the boulders. I would not have noticed its perfect roundness if don Juan had not pointed it out to me.

He said that there were scores of such places scattered in the old world of the Indians. They were not exactly places of power, like certain hills or land formations which were the abode of spirits, but rather places of enlightenment where one could be taught, where one could find solutions to dilemmas.

"All you have to do is come here," he said. "Or spend the night on this rock in order to rearrange your feelings."

"Are we going to spend the night here?"

"I thought so, but a little crow just told me not to do that."

I tried to find out more about the crow but he hushed me up with an impatient movement of his hand.

"Look at that circle of boulders," he said. "Fix it in your memory and then someday a crow will lead you to another one of these places. The more perfect its roundness is, the greater its power."

"Are the warriors' bones still buried here?"

Don Juan made a comical gesture of puzzlement and then smiled broadly.

"This is not a cemetery," he said. "Nobody is buried here. I said warriors were once buried here. I meant they used to come here to bury themselves for a night, or for two days, or for whatever length of time they needed to. I did not mean dead people's bones are buried here. I'm not concerned with cemeteries. There is no power in them. There is power in the bones of a warrior, though, but they are never in cemeteries. And there is even more power in the bones of a man of knowledge, yet it would be practically impossible to find them."

"Who is a man of knowledge, don Juan?"

"Any warrior could become a man of knowledge. As I told you, a warrior is an impeccable hunter that hunts power. If he succeeds in his hunting he can be a man of knowledge."

"What do you ..."

He stopped my question with a movement of his hand. He stood up, signaled me to follow, and began descending on the steep east side of the bluff. There was a definite trail in the almost perpendicular face, leading to the round area.
We slowly worked our way down the perilous path, and when we reached the bottom floor don Juan, without stopping at all, led me through the thick chaparral to the middle of the circle. There he used some thick dry branches to sweep a clean spot for us to sit. The spot was also perfectly round.

"I intended to bury you here all night," he said. "But I know now that it is not time yet. You don't have power. I'm going to bury you only for a short while."

I became very nervous with the idea of being enclosed and asked how he was planning to bury me. He giggled like a child and began collecting dry branches. He did not let me help him and said I should sit down and wait.

He threw the branches he was collecting inside the clean circle. Then he made me lie down with my head towards the east, put my jacket under my head, and made a cage around my body. He constructed it by sticking pieces of branches about two and a half feet in length in the soft dirt; the branches, which ended in forks, served as supports for some long sticks that gave the cage a frame and the appearance of an open coffin. He closed the box- like cage by placing small branches and leaves over the long sticks, encasing me from the shoulders down. He let my head stick out with my jacket as a pillow.

He then took a thick piece of dry wood and, using it as a digging stick, he loosened the dirt around me and covered the cage with it.

The frame was so solid and the leaves were so well placed that no dirt came inside. I could move my legs freely and could actually slide in and out.

Don Juan said that ordinarily a warrior would construct the cage and then slip into it and seal it from the inside.

"How about the animals?" I asked. "Can they scratch the surface dirt and sneak into the cage and hurt the man?"

"No, that's not a worry for a warrior. It's a worry for you because you have no power. A warrior, on the other hand, is guided by his unbending purpose and can fend off anything. No rat, or snake, or mountain lion could bother him."

"What do they bury themselves for, don Juan?"

"For enlightenment and for power."

I experienced an extremely pleasant feeling of peace and satisfaction; the world at that moment seemed at ease. The quietness was exquisite and at the same time unnerving. I was not accustomed to that kind of silence. I tried to talk but he hushed me. After a while the tranquility of the place affected my mood. I began to think of my life and my personal history and experienced a familiar sensation of sadness and remorse. I told him that I did not deserve to be there, that his world was strong and fair and I was weak, and that my spirit had been distorted by the circumstances of my life.

He laughed and threatened to cover my head with dirt if I kept on talking in that vein. He said that I was a man, and like any man I deserved everything that was a man's lot--joy, pain, sadness and struggle--and that the nature of one's acts was unimportant as long as one acted as a warrior.

Lowering his voice to almost a whisper, he said that if I really felt that my spirit was distorted I should simply fix it--purge it, make it perfect--because there was no other task in our entire lives which was more worthwhile. Not to fix the spirit was to seek death, and that was the same as to seek nothing, since death was going to overtake us regardless of anything.

He paused for a long time and then he said with a tone of profound conviction, "To seek the perfection of the warrior's spirit is the only task worthy of our manhood."

His words acted as a catalyst. I felt the weight of my past actions as an unbearable and hindering load. I admitted that there was no hope for me. I began to sleep, talking about my life. I said that I had been roaming for such a long time that I had become callous to pain and sadness, except on certain occasions when I would realize my aloneness and my helplessness.

He did not say anything. He grabbed me by the armpits and pulled me out of the cage. I sat up when be let go of me. He also sat down. An uneasy silence set in between us. I thought he was giving me time to compose myself. I took my notebook and scribbled out of nervousness.

"You feel like a leaf at the mercy of the wind, don't you?" he finally said, staring at me.

That was exactly the way I felt. He seemed to empathize with me. He said that my mood reminded him of a song and began to sing in a low tone; his singing voice was very pleasing and the lyrics carried me away: "I'm so far away from the sky where I was born. Immense nostalgia invades my thoughts. Now that I am so alone and sad like a leaf in the wind, sometimes I want to weep, sometimes I want to laugh with longing." (Que lejos estoy del cielo donde he nacido. Immensa nostalgia invade mi pensamiento. Ahora que estoy tan solo y triste cual hoja al viento, quisiera llorar, quisiera reir de sentimiento.)

We did not speak for a long while. He finally broke the silence.

"Since the day you were born, one way or another, someone has been doing something to you," he said.

"That's correct," I said.

"And they have been doing something to you against your will."

"True."

"And by now you're helpless, like a leaf in the wind."
"That's correct. That's the way it is."

I said that the circumstances of my life had sometimes been devastating. He listened attentively but I could not figure out whether he was just being agreeable or genuinely concerned until I noticed that he was trying to hide a smile.

"No matter how much you like to feel sorry for yourself, you have to change that," he said in a soft tone. "It doesn't jibe with the life of a warrior."

He laughed and sang the song again but contorted the intonation of certain words; the result was a ludicrous lament. He pointed out that the reason I had liked the song was because in my own life I had done nothing else but find flaws with everything and lament. I could not argue with him. He was correct. Yet I believed I had sufficient reasons to justify my feeling of being like a leaf in the wind.

"The hardest thing in the world is to assume the mood of a warrior," he said. "It is of no use to be sad and complain and feel justified in doing so, believing that someone is always doing something to us. Nobody is doing anything to anybody, much less to a warrior.

"You are here, with me, because you want to be here. You should have assumed full responsibility by now, so the idea that you are at the mercy of the wind would be inadmissible."

He stood up and began to disassemble the cage. He scooped the dirt back to where he had gotten it from and carefully scattered all the sticks in the chaparral. Then he covered the clean circle with debris, leaving the area as if nothing had ever touched it.

I commented on his proficiency. He said that a good hunter would know that we had been there no matter how careful he had been, because the tracks of men could not be completely erased.

He sat cross-legged and told me to sit down as comfortably as possible, facing the spot where he had buried me, and stay put until my mood of sadness had dissipated.

"A warrior buries himself in order to find power, not to weep with self-pity," he said.

I attempted to explain but he made me stop with an impatient movement of his head. He said that he had to pull me out of the cage in a hurry because my mood was intolerable and he was afraid that the place would resent my softness and injure me.
"Self-pity doesn't jibe with power," he said. "The mood of a warrior calls for control over himself and at the same time it calls for abandoning himself."

"How can that be?" I asked. "How can he control and abandon himself at the same time?"

"It is a difficult technique," he said.

He seemed to deliberate whether or not to continue talking. Twice he was on the verge of saying something but he checked himself and smiled.

"You're not over your sadness yet," he said. "You still feel weak and there is no point in talking about the mood of a warrior now."

[...]
Sunday, September 3,1961
Don Juan was not in the house when I woke up. I worked over my notes and had time to get some firewood from the surrounding chaparral before he returned. I was eating when he walked into the house. He began to laugh at what he called my routine of eating at noon, but he helped himself to my sandwiches.

I told him that what had happened with the mountain lion was baffling to me. In retrospect, it all seemed unreal. It was as if everything had been staged for my benefit. The succession of events had been so rapid that I really had not had time to be afraid. I had had enough time to act, but not to deliberate upon my circumstances. In writing my notes the question of whether I had really seen the mountain lion came to mind. The dry branch was still fresh in my memory.

"It was a mountain lion," don Juan said imperatively.
"Was it a real flesh and blood animal?"

"Of course."

I told him that my suspicions had been roused because of the easiness of the total event. It was as if the lion had been waiting out there and had been trained to do exactly what don Juan had planned.
He was unruffled by my barrage of skeptical remarks. He laughed at me.

"You're a funny fellow," he said. "You saw and heard the cat. It was right under the tree where you were. He didn't smell you and jump at you because of the river willows. They kill any other smell, even for cats. You had a batch of them in your lap."

I said that it was not that I doubted him, but that everything that had happened that night was extremely foreign to the events of my everyday life. For a while, as I was writing my notes, I even had had the feeling that don Juan may have been playing the role of the lion. However, I had to discard the idea because I had really seen the dark shape of a four-legged animal charging at the cage and then leaping to the mesa.

"Why do you make such a fuss?" he said. "It was just a big cat. There must be thousands of cats in those mountains. Big deal. As usual, you are focusing your attention on the wrong item. It makes no difference whatsoever whether it was a lion or my pants. Your feelings at that moment were what counted."

In my entire life I had never seen or heard a big wildcat on the prowl. When I thought of it, I could not get over the fact that I had been only a few feet away from one.

Don Juan listened patiently while I wept over the entire experience.

"Why the awe for the big cat?" he asked with an inquisitive expression. "You've been close to most of the animals that live around here and you've never been so awed by them. Do you like cats?"
"No, I don't."
"Well, forget about it then. The lesson was not on how to hunt lions, anyway."
"What was it about?"
"The little crow pointed out that specific spot to me, and at that spot I saw the opportunity of making you understand how one acts while one is in the mood of a warrior.

"Everything you did last night was done within a proper mood. You were controlled and at the same time abandoned when you jumped down from the tree to pick up the cage and run up to me. You were not paralyzed with fear. And then, near the top of the bluff, when the lion let out a scream, you moved very well. I'm sure you wouldn't believe what you did if you looked at the bluff during the daytime. You had a degree of abandon, and at the same time you had a degree of control over yourself. You did not let go and wet your pants, and yet you let go and climbed that wall in complete darkness. You could have missed the trail and killed yourself. To climb that wall in darkness required that you had to hold on to yourself and let go of yourself at the same time. That's what I call the mood of a warrior."

I said that whatever I had done that night was the product of my fear and not the result of any mood of control and abandon.

"I know that," he said, smiling. "And I wanted to show you that you can spur yourself beyond your limits if you are in the proper mood. A warrior makes his own mood.. You didn't know that. Fear got you into the mood of a warrior, but now that you know about it, anything can serve to get you into it."

I wanted to argue with him, but my reasons were not clear. I felt an inexplicable sense of annoyance.

"It's convenient to always act in such a mood," he continued. "It cuts through the crap and leaves one purified. It was a great feeling when you reached the top of the bluff. Wasn't it?"

I told him that I understood what he meant, yet I felt it would be idiotic to try to apply what he was teaching me to everyday life.

"One needs the mood of a warrior for every single act," he said. "Otherwise one becomes distorted and ugly. There is no power in a life that lacks this mood. Look at yourself. Everything offends and upsets you. You whine and complain and feel that everyone is making you dance to their tune. You are a leaf at the mercy of the wind. There is no power in your life. What an ugly feeling that must be!

"A warrior, on the other hand, is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. But once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions."

I liked his stance although I thought it was unrealistic. It seemed too simplistic for the complex world in which I lived.

He laughed at my arguments and I insisted that the mood of a warrior could not possibly help me overcome the feeling of being offended or actually being injured by the actions of my fellow men, as in the hypothetical case of being physically harassed by a cruel and malicious person placed in a position of authority.

He roared with laughter and admitted the example was apropos.

"A warrior could be injured but not offended," he said. "For a warrior there is nothing offensive about the acts of his fellow men as long as he himself is acting within the proper mood.

"The other night you were not offended by the lion. The fact that it chased us did not anger you. I did not hear you cursing it, nor did I hear you say that he had no right to follow us. It could have been a cruel and malicious lion for all you know. But that was not a consideration while you struggled to avoid it. The only thing that was pertinent was to survive. And that you did very well.

"If you would have been alone and the lion had caught up with you and mauled you to death, you would have never even considered complaining or feeling offended by its acts.

"The mood of a warrior is not so farfetched for yours or anybody's world. You need it in order to cut through all the guff."

I explained my way of reasoning. The lion and my fellow men were not on a par, because I knew the intimate quirks of men while I knew nothing about the lion. What offended me about my fellow men was that they acted maliciously and knowingly.

"I know, I know," don Juan said patiently. "To achieve the mood of a warrior is not a simple matter. It is a revolution. To regard the lion and the water rats and our fellow men as equals is a magnificent act of the warrior's spirit. It takes power to do that."

 

[Pierre]

Another thing to consider is knowledge. It is neither good nor evil, it's all about utilization and results of same. Would this apply to martial arts? Although you can use knowledge in a purely STO way, martial arts still require someone to kick someone's ass, which already makes it at least "immediately STS",

Maybe that martial art could help the practictioner avoid fighting. Wouldn't it be paradoxical, so much fight training in order to avoid fighting.

Maybe that a defense solution can be simply dodging. Fighting back only adds violence to violence and fuels the already hyperactive opponent low centers. Dodging without fighting back is a very good way of softening the opponents tonal.

Unless you do not restrict martial arts to physical combat scenarios, and consider the possible esoteric or energetic implications, assuming a martial art has any such aspect to itself outside just combat.

Exactly. If genuine martial art is a path to impeccability, then fight is only one of its numerous aspects . As Castaneda said and as you assumed, it's about building the energetic body.

But more than just values, the approach and utilization of energy should be different. We know STS tries to control the creative force but STO tries to work with it, not to bend it to its will.

The choice fundamentally lies there. Everybody has energy. Every instant we make decisions (consciouscly or not) having some STO and/or STS orientation. So ultimately it's simply about : how and what, do we use our energy for. Hyperactive low emotional center is an example of a state where an individual serves energetically STS realm.

as we are infinately capable of manufacturing such evidence as you described here and before

Indeed human beings have a great capacity to lie to themselves and to imagine. That's an essential point of the internal work. Trying to make objective self observation. That's also why network is important.

I would counter with the idea that true teachings can be applied immediately

Sometimes the seeds take times to become beautiful trees. In the beginning the energetic body is something very subtle, very unperceivable. There are probably some immediate results. But some time might be necessary to notice some other fruits of the work.

I have seen and felt many strange things, things even stranger and stronger than what you have described to me

I believe you. The main point is not really about being or seeming stronger or weaker than this one or that one. The essential struggle is not external, it's internal. It's about not being slave of our predatory mind anymore.

I can say, with certainty in myself, that results must come from two things interacting, results than can be observed, and mulled over, not just by ourselves or "fellow believers" but by third parties .

It's true, however, in this world there are results that are objectively perceivable/measurable and there are also a lot of things that can not be shown, measured. These are personal/internal phenomenon. I don't think that non-observability proves non-existence though.

 

[Novelis]

As for seventh density, you are so far away from 7th density, and you will die and be born so many times between here and then that it is a waste of time to even discuss it. There are more important matters at hand, stop dreaming about going to heaven and get there already

Maybe I need to clarify:
In my last post the more important matters at hand were the questions preceding the last quote box and the last line, perhaps I should have wrote "On a side note" or something to that effect before I quoted Scio and wrote ONE line concerning what he said.
The last line was not an impetus for discussion. Rather, it was a simply a curious side thought I had which was said to add another dimension or a "spin" on what I quoted Scio saying. It was a dynamic I thought Scio might have not thought about before, thus something to ponder about.
I thought it was fairly obvious that the topics I was spurring on were the questions above the last quote box, it seems to me that you picked a few words that were just side thoughts and answered in a way as if it was the crux of my perspective.
I am not demanding a certain response, nor am I trying to lead the discussion where I want it to go, I just have no idea whether you were joking or whatever. I am thinking about why the topics that I thought were worth raising were ignored, and I have thought of lots of possibilities, but I know they are imaginings that derive from false I's and are bound to be wrong.
I have wondered while writing this whether it contributes to the discussion, and it doesn't really...
But, writing this while thinking about it did point out to me the shortcomings of myself as an effective communicator, made me more aware of how little I understand in terms of networking properly, and also the fine degree of linguistic skills one must possess to communicate effectively in this kind of communication.
I think it's interesting how your words triggered such thoughts in me, so even though you couldn't have anticipated this, thanks.
I must redouble my efforts!!
Hope I don't kill the discussion... Again. :P

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Thinking about it - most of the time you can't have STS means lead to an STO end. You can preserve yourself to carry out a mission, but in terms of preserving others (or controlling/killing someone) so someone can carry out their mission is an assumption/judgement on what their mission is, which is their choice and destiny that you are not privy to, and also this constitutes an anticipation of a "desired" future on your part. You only have control over your own choices and thus direction, and mission. On the other hand, sometimes preserving others IS helpful, I think, although stuff like this really can only be decided in the context of the details of a situation. I guess the bottom line, as usual, goes back to "rule of 3" - saving someone from harm isn't STS or STO - it's the context, intention, and results of the action that makes the difference. Sometimes preserving someone IS helpful, and is a service to them and/or others, though most often it is through helping them preserve themselves if they choose by sharing knowledge, which protects, I think.

On a related note, the "peaceful" solution does not mean it is STO either (devil being in the details). STO, at least changing from our current state to STO, is all about waging war and battle. Peace and mental tranquility that new agers seek is self-calming detachment from reality, and leads only to entropy and sleep, and in no way STO or helpful to anyone. STO is about battling our ignorance, battling mechanicalness, battling ego, predator mind, assumptions, anticipation, self-lies and external lies/control/oppression/manipulation/violation of free will. By battling it just means not "submitting to it" and working towards YOUR own destiny/impeccability (not assuming the destiny of anyone else, as it is in the end a choice which each can only make for themselves), and not "attacking" anyone or anything in the sense of suppression, controlling, and forcing a change either onto someone, something, or the future itself, etc.

Axel_Dunor, I think sometimes dodging is not really an option unless you're superman. If someone's swinging at you, running is probably the only real choice for "dodging". If you can't outrun, and you can't reason, inflicting quick and efficient pain is probably a good idea. We're not STO, we can't survive in this body and this world if we tried to be, so sometimes I don't think it's such a bad thing to, within reason, preserve your body even if it means inflicting a little pain in the process. But I guess what to do/not to do can only really be decided from the context of the particular situation.

About true teachings, it is my understanding that "true" means real, and real means practical in objective reality in one way or another. It doesn't have to be measurable to be practical, but it must be able to be objectively observed, assuming the observer knows what to look for, I think. I agree that "true teachings" can be applied immediately on the condition that the practicioner has the capability to do so, and understands the teaching and so doing it correctly. For example, a simple thing such as "make no assumptions" which is required for seeking truth - this CAN be applied immediately on the condition that you understand what this means and objectively do what it says to do (or not to do). To some extent, we cannot really fully do this right away in our default state since we don't have control of ourselves, so our programming and biases and conditioning will inevitably cause us to assume and anticipate with no conscious control. But to SOME extent, we can question our current assumptions, and stop making new ones - at least to the extent that we have conscious control of ourselves. So the more "impeccable" we become, the more we will be able to carry this out on more levels. But it still CAN be applied immediately for immediate and practical results that are immediately discernable and immediately bring you closer to truth. With time, you just get better at it. Some teachings it might be that you really cannot apply them right away simply because you might not have any capability to do so due to not having met certain requirements. But there should be all requirements available - the entire staircase of steps will be provided, and it will be instantly applicable depending on what level you are on, assuming you understand what level you are on and what you need to do with respect to the "teaching", and do it correctly. Giving someone a teaching that doesn't apply to them because it requires a step that they have not completed (like say, fusing the magnetic center), is not helpful, and can have the opposite effect of fooling them into illusion of progress and where they really stand. The most popular prolly being "You're all one" which all new agers instantly apply to their lives - even though it is NOT applicable in any way on our level. This may be a "true teaching" - but for the wrong crowd in the wrong context, and so does far more harm than good as a result of that.

 

[atreides]

Let me put it this way, someone, and I can't recall who, once said that no person does any thing for evil or bad. Instead they do it for what they consider to be good, from their point of view. But if one knows one is committing an STS act and rationalizing it as "it's for the good of the mission" then that person is not thinking clearly, and that action which is sts will lead to more and more sts, not because the action itself is sts, but because he has begun to rationalize actions by anticipations. You anticipate a good outcome, from your point of view, from a bad act. It is a very dangerous proposition, and really nothing really beneficial to this discussion would come from discussing it further in the current context.


Axel:

I understand what you are saying, and to an extent again I agree with you, as I find no real fault in each word, only in them as a collection and as they pertain to martial arts. You seem to me to have made a very fine quilt out of many ideas, but you cannot pass it off as a blanket, it's a quilt. That's the best way that I can put it.

Exactly. If genuine martial art is a path to impeccability, then fight is only one of its numerous aspects . As Castaneda said and as you assumed, it's about building the energetic body.

No it's not. Firstly it is not one thing but many, and I do not think that building an energetic body of any kind comes into play at any moment. We are in the realm of invariable physicality, no energy, not variable physicality. Martial Arts, IMHO is about learning to be comfortable in your own skin. Learning control, learning strategy and dynamics of interaction, it's about mastering the flesh so you can take the test at the end of the school year. When you pass from 3rd grade to 4th grade do you take a placement test? No, do you test on 4th grade lessons? No, you take a test on your abilities as a 3rd grader.

That is what Martial Arts is about. It is the warriors path, energy, sts/sto, 7th density etc be damned.

Indeed human beings have a great capacity to lie to themselves and to imagine. That's an essential point of the internal work. Trying to make objective self observation. That's also why network is important.

Walk the walk, don't talk the talk.

Sometimes the seeds take times to become beautiful trees. In the beginning the energetic body is something very subtle, very unperceivable. There are probably some immediate results. But some time might be necessary to notice some other fruits of the work.

I disagree, thats a patronizing concept. I have met 60 and 70 year old masters from most of the major "energetic" arts and found them completely incapable of anything regarding discernment and control, most of them were less awake in terms of the work than most 6th graders. Don't take my word for it, really evaluate the rewards of 30 to 40 years of commitment to one of these martial arts? Aside from a few parlour tricks...

I believe you. The main point is not really about being or seeming stronger or weaker than this one or that one. The essential struggle is not external, it's internal. It's about not being slave of our predatory mind anymore.

This is the same kind of wishy washy fortune cookie crap that gets passed around at the higher levels of all martial arts and contantly regurgitated in kung fu movies. I agree that work needs to be done on the predatory mind, but that work is group work, not by yourself work, and it has nothing to do with forms, katas or qi gong nei gong or hu phlung dung fu.

I don't think that non-observability proves non-existence though.

Not quite, remember what walks like a duck and quacks like a duck is a duck, and what doesn't walk like a duck, and doesn't quack like a duck and doesn't even look like a duck, isn't a duck.

Any thing that is not observable, and it's effects are not observable, cannot exist for the person observing. Remember, the unkowable exists, and you can't know the unknowable, and getting the unknown mixed up with the unknowable is a dangerous proposition.

So, what is a martial art? I have really struggled with this question, and come up with what I consider to be an acceptable answer. A martial art is a collection of skills that can be applied to interactions. With that in mind, what is a evil martial art? Why not a collection of skills for raping and burning, that is taking and destroying. A good martial art would be a collection of skills creating and giving, and a neutral art would be a equal mixture. Arts like Tai Chi and Dim Mak (Most argue that these arts are actually one art practice/theory) Kyusho Jitsu, most jitsus etc would be evil arts, in fact, very few martial arts at work today could even be considered neutral. My beloved Aikido barely makes the grade, and that may be out of prejudice. The violence of an art isn't taken into an account, only the theory behind it's practice. If you take and destroy, then it is evil, if you create and give it is not.

For instance, there are two main schools of thought on striking, on is internal power, and another is channeled power. In order to build internal power you absorb either from an opponent, or from the earth (There are a number of exercises like burying hands, hugging trees, circling fire etc), absorbing from an opponent is done by seizing a certain part of his body and draining his ki away and redirecting it out in an attack.

In channeling power for strikes, you have already within you plenty of power, and the opponent when striking you is also giving you power, the idea is to give more than was received.

This is just a small example, but I hope you guys see where I am going with this, I don't like making long posts. Please think about what I have said and if you have some info or a different perspective, please respond, but not so long. Most of us have read Castaneda and G. so just reference the page and we can go look for it if we need to. I am more interested in what you think, than what you remember from G or C or M.

 

[atreides]

Just to clarify a few things, You should really prefix everything that I say with "it is my opinion that..." I am not some ascended master, I am just a person who has spent 18 odd years on and off looking for real martial arts, I don't really know anything, but I have been around just long enough to lose faith in just about every system I have encountered.