Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

[cubbex]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

I'm gonna practice ninjutsu or ninjitsu (don't remember how is called originally) here, to use a katana and then become batman and save the world :P

Wow I didn't know there's a chance to learn something really interesting as that martial art. My teacher told us about a japanese teacher that came here to Mexico, that was able to heal wounded students, with his energy, I didn't believe it at first, but then reading about those kind of abilities earned by hard work and efforts... well its amazing. In some way he drained the wound to his heart, becoming weaker every time he did it, and he was really stronger supposedly.

 

[abstract]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

i've actually read a lot about ninjas lately. In fact over the past year i've been getting into martial arts more and more. I make my own nunchucks, 3 section staffs, sticks, and my most recent addition is a flail, but it's not traditional design, it's got a shorter staff section and a longer flail section. anybody ever tried 3 section staff? that thing is a !@#$%, man!

Me practicing 3 section staff:
okay, so let's see, i take this section, and move it like that...and this section goes like that...and then you -KONK!!- ouch, okay,
maybe i should watch the video again, jeez. I hurt myself less when i was learning nunchaku...

 

[Shinzenbi]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

As a kung-fu practitioner, I’m glad to read such a thread on this forum. I have always considered martial arts as a measure tool of esoteric evolution. One cannot work without the other.

The alchemic texts mention disciples dying of explosions they had themselves provoked or suffering terrible diseases because their technical level had overtaken their spiritual evolution. I think this principle can be applied to any art or sport requiring increasing skills. There cannot be any further progress without work on the self. In this respect, the Work seems to be closely related to one’s level of practice in martial arts. The 4th way teachings state that to DO you must BE. Is this idea suitable for martial arts? This would explain why I have seen disciples training for years and never making any progress (even going backwards), whatever the efforts of the teacher. It is really the neutralizing force. As you are, so you practice.

From an esoteric point of view, I consider a martial art school as follows: the teacher/master is the active force, the disciples are the passive force, and their knowledge/evolution is the neutralizing force. Of course, at least as much time should be spent on gathering knowledge as physically training in the dojo. This idea appears in many books discussing martial arts. They state that spiritual refining is the first condition to make real progresses. Even the Shôninki (ninja guidebook) says so.

This is what I consider the beauty of martial arts. Refining oneself to reach a better I, with the training as mirror. Would this be the true fight we have to engage in as practitioners?

Such a link has always been obvious to me, but I just have my own experience and discussion with friends as confirmation. What do you think?

 

[Gimpy]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

This is what I consider the beauty of martial arts. Refining oneself to reach a better I, with the training as mirror. Would this be the true fight we have to engage in as practitioners?

Such a link has always been obvious to me, but I just have my own experience and discussion with friends as confirmation. What do you think?

I think if you're going to do the Work, martial arts can be an aide, as long as there is an understanding of what internal programs/dialogues are.

At least, that's what I used fencing to do. (Which I consider to be a martial art, of a kind.)

For example: Do you still watch TV? Listen to main stream music? Monkey around with a phone of whatever vintage?

If you are, and expect training in a martial art to make a difference, how can it compete for your attention through all that garbage?

Your mind is a living tuning fork/radio receiver. What you stuff into it matters. Internal programs and self sabotaging memes feed and are reinforced by the media you watch, listen to, and give your attention to. The more you like something, the more 'hooked on it' you feel, if you dig into why that attraction is there, you'll discover the program in your head that wants it.

How did I find this out? By accident. In college, I was too busy working to spend any time listening to music, or watching TV. For about two months all I did was schoolwork and fencing.

It was a revelation: In two months, it was as if I'd been living on a mountain top....the world moved on without me, I had no clue what anyone was talking about, as their lives were so 'plugged in' they didn't want to try to explain it to me. I had more energy to DO things without all that time wasting. And....my fencing was fantastic.

Make sense?

If so, try it.

 

[Joe]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

This is what I consider the beauty of martial arts. Refining oneself to reach a better I, with the training as mirror. Would this be the true fight we have to engage in as practitioners?

Such a link has always been obvious to me, but I just have my own experience and discussion with friends as confirmation. What do you think?

I think the martial arts that are practiced in the modern era are really only useful as a form of exercise, and perhaps disciplining the body, but that can be done with any type of sport or exercise.

 

[Shinzenbi]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

For example: Do you still watch TV? Listen to main stream music? Monkey around with a phone of whatever vintage?

If you are, and expect training in a martial art to make a difference, how can it compete for your attention through all that garbage?

Your mind is a living tuning fork/radio receiver. What you stuff into it matters. Internal programs and self sabotaging memes feed and are reinforced by the media you watch, listen to, and give your attention to. The more you like something, the more 'hooked on it' you feel, if you dig into why that attraction is there, you'll discover the program in your head that wants it.

How did I find this out? By accident. In college, I was too busy working to spend any time listening to music, or watching TV. For about two months all I did was schoolwork and fencing.

It was a revelation: In two months, it was as if I'd been living on a mountain top....the world moved on without me, I had no clue what anyone was talking about, as their lives were so 'plugged in' they didn't want to try to explain it to me. I had more energy to DO things without all that time wasting. And....my fencing was fantastic.

Make sense?

Sure it does! Dividing my thoughts is dividing my energy. I try to be as selective as possible in the influences entering my life and have much fewer activities than ever before. To tell you what, I was unable to turn on my TV to watch the olympic judo final with Teddy Riner when a friend called me. I abandonned after 5 minutes struggling with the Bbox. As the Cs said "When energy is no longer needed to support illusion it is available for knowledge and awareness." I would not say I'm living on a mountain top, nor is my kung-fu fantastic, but the principle of "adding in less" to save energy makes sense.

I was just thinking of martial art training as a good barometer for the incremental in energy and wondered if the idea was valid. I guess it is blatant in this kind of activity because I have to use much of my capacities in physical and emotional terms (not intellectual, this I acknowledge). Of course, it can also be noticed in other activities. I do not expect martial arts alone to make any difference. Without knowledge... well.
If I may ad something, the dietary recommendations on the SOTT website have REALLY improved my health. Removing carbs, dairy and gluten prevents from being out of breath quickly in intense efforts, among many other good effects.

When you say : "Your mind is a living tuning fork/radio receiver. What you stuff into it matters. Internal programs and self sabotaging memes feed and are reinforced by the media you watch, listen to, and give your attention to. The more you like something, the more 'hooked on it' you feel, if you dig into why that attraction is there, you'll discover the program in your head that wants it.". Do you mean that me practicing kung-fu could be the simple effect of a program? Or just that pointless activities apart from it can be detrimental to the practice? I'm asking the question because I'm not an english speaking person and may have a wrong understanding of texts in english.

Thanks

Mod edit: Fixed quotes

 

[Gimpy]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Do you mean that me practicing kung-fu could be the simple effect of a program? Or just that pointless activities apart from it can be detrimental to the practice? I'm asking the question because I'm not an english speaking person and may have a wrong understanding of texts in english.

To find out if Kung-fu practice is a program or not would take some time, and examination of why you're doing it to discover. If you cannot imagine your life without it? That's not the same as thinking you have to watch the same television show your friends watch, or that you have to be on your phone all the time.

My point? If you want any kind of physical practice to help with the internal program removal in the Work, you need to be careful what you let into your mind....does that make better sense?

 

[Shinzenbi]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

To find out if Kung-fu practice is a program or not would take some time, and examination of why you're doing it to discover. If you cannot imagine your life without it? That's not the same as thinking you have to watch the same television show your friends watch, or that you have to be on your phone all the time.

My point? If you want any kind of physical practice to help with the internal program removal in the Work, you need to be careful what you let into your mind....does that make better sense?

Yes, I think I get it.

Even though I have not completely figured out why I practice martial arts, there are some “big” reasons. A major one has already been tackled by Atreide at the beginning of this thread when he states “…make the connection between combat and writing an editorial on the signs page, they are essentially similar, even energetically so… Each of these is a manifestation of the same or similar energetic dynamics.” I totally agree.

To me, martial art practice is a great source of energy (I define energy as what enables someone to act). The combination of extreme concentration and accurate motions, be it in a training fight (to dodge or hit) or doing taos (to perform them as perfectly as I can), creates kind of “energetic bliss” in me that sometimes lasts for several days and nights. The Sun Tzu art of war states “you have to pick up victory in the middle of danger”; it’s the same idea to a very small extent. Being in danger, of course in a sporty spirit (no aggressivity), and managing it as appropriately as possible seems to create fine energy. It would be interesting to know if other people have the same kind of experience. Kenlee spoke of contact with the I. Would this be true ?
By the way, I have also noticed that the facts of studying and mediating can lead to almost the same result because the concentration is the same. Again, it appears to me as a similar energetic dynamic.

So, indeed, I guess I cannot imagine my life without it because I would be depleted in energy and generally feel much older. Castaneda explains that the first challenge of a warrior is to have energy. If he is right when saying that one needs sufficient energy level to catch a concept, then the reason of my practice precisely lies here. Getting enough energy to study efficiently. Of course, part of it is required for my daily activities, especially job.

Getting fine energy from something that is rough to use it in subtil activities is my point.

For these reasons, I think that martial arts are in my case much different from other time consuming activities like the ones you mention.

 

[paralleloscope]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

The combination of extreme concentration and accurate motions, be it in a training fight (to dodge or hit) or doing taos (to perform them as perfectly as I can), creates kind of “energetic bliss” in me that sometimes lasts for several days and nights.

So you are a bliss junky? And how do you know that this effect is 'finer' energy (which I presume you mean in a Gurdjieff/Mouravieff sense)?

I'm no expert in martial arts, have trained Taekwondo, WingTsun, Kickboxing and Systema with no big mental effects. I never liked the idea nor the actual action of physical fighting but still seemed to end up doing stints of martial arts now and again. The one that made the most sense was Systema, which I've been doing inspired from this thread. It's training of connecting to a subconscious response, I think can be a good way to work in parallel with (re)developing a 'felt sense' (see Peter Levine). Learning series of postures makes little sense to me in relation to getting deeper self connection. Yes martial arts just like yoga have probably been truly esoterically informed once, but that bridge smoldered long ago, OSIT. Actually learning series of stances and doing them perfectly seems like refining ones robot self, imo.

 

[kenlee]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

By the way, I have also noticed that the facts of studying and mediating can lead to almost the same result because the concentration is the same. Again, it appears to me as a similar energetic dynamic.

I think a good book to read that realistically combines both the abstract and practical aspects of the martial arts is Samurai Zen by Scott Shaw.

 

[obyvatel]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

As a kung-fu practitioner, I’m glad to read such a thread on this forum. I have always considered martial arts as a measure tool of esoteric evolution. One cannot work without the other.
.........................
This is what I consider the beauty of martial arts. Refining oneself to reach a better I, with the training as mirror. Would this be the true fight we have to engage in as practitioners?

Such a link has always been obvious to me, but I just have my own experience and discussion with friends as confirmation. What do you think?

My personal take on this is that learning the correct use of energy in physical movements is likely to be of great help in esoteric evolution. From the 4th Way perspective, it is about mastering the moving center which is likely to have beneficial effects on the emotion and thinking centers. This is because in real life, all these centers get mixed up and interfere unnecessarily with the activities of the other centers and mastering one center thus helps in straightening out some of this confusion. An example of this would be greatly exaggerated muscular tension that we habitually use to perform daily tasks. Gurdjieff mentioned that the amount of effort we make to pick up a needle from the ground is of the same order as the effort we would make to pick up a person from the ground. A little self observation would go on to show the essential truth in his statement.

Martial arts of certain types may be of help in learning about the right amount of energy use for physical activities through relaxation and alignment techniques. Such things however cannot be learned from books - one needs to have a teacher who can not only do things right but also consciously know how to do things right so that he/she can correct students appropriately. If one is lucky enough to find such a teacher - then it is good. Personally, I have learned more about right use of one's body through a few sessions of the FM Alexander technique than those 5+ years of dedicated martial arts practice. My martial arts teachers were not bad; they could do many things correctly (as evidenced by amount of energy expended to execute movements/techniques), but they could not impart the knowledge that lies behind the techniques in an understandable form.

Martial arts - like many other activities - can be used as a tool or vehicle for personal evolution. And when there is a level of mastery in any physical activity which penetrates into the essence of the matter, then it becomes easier to master other activities of a similar type. Miyamoto Musashi, the legendary Japanese swordsman, talked about this in his "book of five rings" - he became a self-trained calligrapher/artist after his mastery of the sword.

[quote author=Shinzenbi]
To me, martial art practice is a great source of energy (I define energy as what enables someone to act). The combination of extreme concentration and accurate motions, be it in a training fight (to dodge or hit) or doing taos (to perform them as perfectly as I can), creates kind of “energetic bliss” in me that sometimes lasts for several days and nights. The Sun Tzu art of war states “you have to pick up victory in the middle of danger”; it’s the same idea to a very small extent. Being in danger, of course in a sporty spirit (no aggressivity), and managing it as appropriately as possible seems to create fine energy. It would be interesting to know if other people have the same kind of experience. Kenlee spoke of contact with the I. Would this be true ?
By the way, I have also noticed that the facts of studying and mediating can lead to almost the same result because the concentration is the same. Again, it appears to me as a similar energetic dynamic.

So, indeed, I guess I cannot imagine my life without it because I would be depleted in energy and generally feel much older. Castaneda explains that the first challenge of a warrior is to have energy. If he is right when saying that one needs sufficient energy level to catch a concept, then the reason of my practice precisely lies here. Getting enough energy to study efficiently. Of course, part of it is required for my daily activities, especially job.

Getting fine energy from something that is rough to use it in subtil activities is my point.

For these reasons, I think that martial arts are in my case much different from other time consuming activities like the ones you mention.
[/quote]

Martial arts training drills like sparring with single or multiple partners, sensory training like blindfolded push-hands etc help in developing awareness and attention. The general feel-good factor after physical exercise however is physiological in basis. We feel better because of a variety of reasons including increased oxygenation, cellular regeneration, endorphin release etc. There is nothing unique about martial arts as it is practiced today regarding this "energetic" aspect - at least that has been my personal experience. I do not agree that martial arts in particular generates "fine energies" - at least as "fine energies" are understood in the 4th Way concept of "hydrogens".

 

[Shinzenbi]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

The combination of extreme concentration and accurate motions, be it in a training fight (to dodge or hit) or doing taos (to perform them as perfectly as I can), creates kind of “energetic bliss” in me that sometimes lasts for several days and nights.

So you are a bliss junky? And how do you know that this effect is 'finer' energy (which I presume you mean in a Gurdjieff/Mouravieff sense)?

Parallel, thank you for the idea. I had never thought of myself as a bliss junky. Maybe the word is a bit strong. I just meant that it makes me feel really good afterwards. I have never tried drugs or been drunk enough to reach a bliss state (if it takes there) to make a comparison.

How do I know that this effect is finer energy ? Again, I meant that this training gives me the feeling to be full of energy. Basically, this enables me to perform daily actions efficiently, without any feeling of weight when moving or tiredness when working in front of a computer. This is what I call “finer” energy because I find my general state “finer” than it would be if I had not had any physical activity. So, maybe you are right when you propose that I am a bliss junky. I’ll think about it.

I do not know what G. and M. exactly refer to when they speak about fine energy, so I would not use their terminology. Generally, this word has always seemed unclear to me when applied to humans (what is human energy?), which is why I use it in the most common meaning: what enables someone to act. If you or someone has a clear explanation of what G. and M. mean, it is welcome!

I never liked the idea nor the actual action of physical fighting but still seemed to end up doing stints of martial arts now and again.

Nor do I. To make it short, this has been my way to the realization of the imminence of death. This time, in G/M/C sense. Mouravieff speaks of imagining yourself as a corpse to catch it. Simple meditation was maybe not sufficient to me. The idea of doing my best in every action and really questioning my feelings and thoughts because it could be the last one, to get rid of soooo much garbage, has become clear thanks to the training. I’m not sure I would have had any clue of this concept one day otherwise. I’m just speaking about martial art training; I do not mean that I’ve been engaged real situation. This is the best I was able to grasp from the physical fight training.

 

[Shinzenbi]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Martial arts training drills like sparring with single or multiple partners, sensory training like blindfolded push-hands etc help in developing awareness and attention. The general feel-good factor after physical exercise however is physiological in basis. We feel better because of a variety of reasons including increased oxygenation, cellular regeneration, endorphin release etc. There is nothing unique about martial arts as it is practiced today regarding this "energetic" aspect - at least that has been my personal experience. I do not agree that martial arts in particular generates "fine energies" - at least as "fine energies" are understood in the 4th Way concept of "hydrogens".

Obyvatel, thank you for your help. It appears I was not looking in the right direction. I think that you are right as it was simply a physiological matter.

 

[Tristan]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

I've recently started Wing Chun classes although is a bit tough for me. I see now that serves me now to exercise my body and get used to do it in a relaxed way. At the same time we have a workout quite complete because we mix speed and resistance training and others
Also training martial arts could be useful in working body laterality, overcome fears, win flexibility, etc
I believe above all it serves me to strengthen my willpower and stamina.

On the other hand, my main problem is I have a tendency to injure myself soon because I'm normally either too tight. I am considering trying CST or Rolfing

 

[sitting]

Re: Was -> Book me dudes! Now -> Martial Arts Discussion

Lately I have been shopping around alot for books,

Have you come across "The Magus of Java" by Kosta Danaos? It's available for download on the web. And I'm pretty sure most of you here interested in this subject have seen the video from Lawrence Blair.

This book is the first I've seen that gives a practical, down to earth description of the significance and difference between Yang and Yin chi. No philosophical mumbo jumbo, but the actual nuts and bolts. Along with its physical possibilities when forced together. The author is not of an intellectual bent. Yet strangely therein lies the usefulness of this book. The ability for electrical discharge (and yes, you can debate its authenticity) is a singularly unique signature. It's several steps removed and above standard "fajin". When you deal directly with this sort of energy, you're in essence touching the boundaries of the primordial.

Of additional interest is the "chopstick through table" trick. Reminds me of the "straw through tree" item seen in hurricanes. Which in turn brings forth the "fusion of dissimilar materials" described in Judy Wood's work. And ultimately to the "variability of physicality" thingy mentioned by the C's. This is really a mouthful but the potential links of these concepts are quite fascinating I think.