Water Power - H2O vs HHO - new electrolosys?

[ExactChange]

Any chemists about? Here's a video going around about Denny Klein who has a "water powered" car. His initial invention is a welding torch that does not get hot.

http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=78897
Article:
http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=4934566&nav=0RZF

Claims:

New electrolysis technique ~10x more efficient than current methods to produce a gas termed HHO. The gas is shot out of a nozzle creating discharge and water. Discharge can weld many materials or even combinations without need for different gases.

Car powered by water and standard gasoline hybrid. This technology is not explained very well so far as I could find.

At http://hytechapps.com/science/Santilli.htm (off of Klein's site) Prof Ruggero Maria Santilli from the Universities of Naples and Turin, Italy has a "scientific paper" which you can download.

Water water everywhere...

 

[ExactChange]

It seems that even if his electrolysis were 99% efficient, the car would have to be pulling all the energy from the gas engine. He's storing water and creating this gas on the fly to burn.

 

[Charles]

From http://hytechapps.com/science/A NEW GASEOUS AND COMBUSTIBLE FORM OF WATER - Santilli 8-04.doc

The above efficiency establishes the existence of a transition of water from the liquid to the gaseous state that is not caused by evaporation. By keeping in mind the combustible character of the HHO gas compared to the noncombustible character of water vapor, the above efficiency suggests the existence of new chemical processes in the production of the gas that deserve quantitative studies.

Quantitative studies? Yes of course. IF it takes less energy to make this lighter than air HHO gas from water, than to evaporate the same amount of water, and knowing that the energy will be returned during condensation, (and in the case of the HHO gas one could even insert combustion and precipitation), than there is a surplus of energy with each cycle !?? Where does the energy come from? The only step I see that could explain the seemingly extra energy is that the "combustion" is very much an endothermic reaction. In other words the HHO gas, for some as yet unknown reason must be rather stable. This seems to be corroborated by the low temperature of only 150

 

[schriss]

visit http://video.google.com and search for: water energy
lots of this there, some working examples of hybrid cars. Also notes on murdered inventor, other inventor posted threats he received, fortunately others picked up his work.

Also, what is this alkaline charged water? Saw a "JoeCell" working, producing 60Volt 1amp of power.

http://joecell.cloud.prohosting.com/
"He was in process of disclosing how he accomplished this when confronted on April 11 by two unidentified individuals who told him to cease all of his alternative energy work or there would be dire consequences."
It's up to date, last update few days ago. Lots of movies to download, build instructions.

 

[Charles]

What is even weirder is that there isn't much follow-up by recent articles.

Sorry for prematurely concluding that there isn't any recent follow up. With the help of a colleague, here are the patents and patent applications that relate to Santilli's HHO gaseous water.

WO2005076767
WO03002250
US2003113597
US2003133855
US2003051991
US2001038087
US6540966
WO0110546
US6183604

Patent search bases:
Europe: http://ep.espacenet.com/search97cgi/s97_cgi.exe?Action=FormGen&Template=ep/en/advanced.hts

US: http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

For instance :
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2005076767&F=0

To avoid confusion, note that this does not relate to the Joe cell that is mentioned by "schriss".

 

[Charles]

From the patent: http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPOD ... 67&F=0

The electrolyte solution may be an aqueous electrolyte solution to produce a mixture of the novel gases; however, to produce the novel inventive gases, distilled water preferably is used.

Relation to CS.
Does this mean that at least some of this HHO gaseous water is being produced when making once own "electrolytic" colloidal silver?

The only difference I can distil from the patent is found here:

Preferably, there are from 1 to 50 supplemental electrodes interposed between the two principal electrodes. More preferably, there are from 5 to 30 supplemental electrodes interposed between the two principal electrodes, and most preferably, there are about 15 supplemental electrodes interposed between the two principal electrodes. Preferably, the two principle electrodes are each individually a metallic wire mesh, a metallic plate, or a metallic plate having one or more holes. More preferably, the two principle electrodes are each individually a metallic plate. A suitable metal from which the two principal electrodes are formed, includes but is not limited to, nickel, nickel containing alloys, and stainless steel.

and,

Preferably, the fixed spatial relationship of the two principal electrodes and the one or more supplemental electrodes ... More preferably, each electrode is separated from an adjacent electrode by a distance from about 0.2 to about 0.3 inches, and most preferably about 0.25 inches.

In summary, the only differences are:

Interposed supplemental electrodes at a preferable fixed distance seem to help the production of HHO.
And, the material of the electrodes is metallic, preferably nickel, nickel alloys and stainless steel, instead of silver.


Relation to Joe cell.
A Joe cell is said to be more efficient when more than one electrode is used, but here they are placed concentrically. A Joe cell, in the end, also runs on distilled water.
Is it possible that the etheric flames that are seen when running a Joe cell are the result of combustion of HHO?

Has anybody tried this Joe cell already?

 

[schriss]

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/bingofuel/html/bfr5hpgen.htm

this is cool, 5HP Electrical Generator run on BingoFuel Reactor ONLY, no regular fuel, no mixtures. Movie at the bottom of the page. Generator seems VERY simple to build, instructions here: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/bingofuel/html/bfrhowto.htm

 

[ark]

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/bingofuel/html/bfr5hpgen.htm

this is cool, 5HP Electrical Generator run on BingoFuel Reactor ONLY, no regular fuel, no mixtures. Movie at the bottom of the page. Generator seems VERY simple to build, instructions here: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/bingofuel/html/bfrhowto.htm

My question is: why do you believe any of this? Why? What are the credentials of the people propagating all this stuff?

 

[schriss]

http://jlnlabs.imars.com/bingofuel/html/bfr5hpgen.htm

this is cool, 5HP Electrical Generator run on BingoFuel Reactor ONLY, no regular fuel, no mixtures. Movie at the bottom of the page. Generator seems VERY simple to build, instructions here: http://jlnlabs.imars.com/bingofuel/html/bfrhowto.htm

My question is: why do you believe any of this? Why? What are the credentials of the people propagating all this stuff?

Well, I'm no scientist nor chemist (I'm just the guy who can install/fix various things), but I usually have an instant feeling if something is going to work or not, or if it's a truth or not.

Anyway, what they wrote is:
The BingoFuel Reactor produces a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen (COH2) and this gas can burn very cleanly in oxygen or air, and so it can be used as fuel for an internal combustion engine. When burned, COH2 produces carbon dioxide and water vapor, so it generates very little, if any, pollution to the environnement.

They also wrote there are commercial devices that do the same but take 5-20 times longer.

And also: This device is fully based on the Hilliary Eldridge patent US 603,058 "Electrical Retort" granted on April 26, 1898: http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/bnsviewer?CY=ep&LG=en&DB=EPD&PN=US603058&ID=US+++0603058A1+I+

Main part are elecrodes found in any 4,5V battery, so I might try to build one, but not sure what for. It still requires electricity to run in closed loop, so it's not just energy out of nowhere.


I found it interesting because I'm thinking how would we live if there would be no fuel anymore and no electricity (cause is not important: meteorite, more earth changes, disasters, doesn't matter). I just thought having a mobile electric generator and being able to run it on easily obtained hydrogen would be useful in any large-scale crisis situation.

 

[ark]

Anyway, what they wrote is:

My question remains: why do you believe anything they write? What are "their" credentials?

You see, our method, here. is different: do not believe anything, check what can be checked first.

Why do we choose this method? Because there are so many lies around.

Now, example. You have mentioned Naudine, right?

OK look here

[...] This review by Myron Evans is fantastic, and it places EM energy from the vacuum very solidly into the literature. It will be published in the forthcoming three volumes of M.W. Evans, ed., Modern Nonlinear Optics, Second Edition, Wiley, 2001.

I have the permission of Myron Evans to post the paper until the publication of the book toward the end of this year.

Cheers,

Tom Bearden[...]

Next, look here and read about Evans.

Next, take into account what Evans wrote recently to the AIAS group:

[...] As the AIAS group gets more and more famous it needs to be more and more careful about the problem of pseudo science. Without wanting to step on anyone's feet I should point out that Tom Bearden himself told me that he does not want to be associated with AIAS, and he resigned years ago. Any AIAS Professor or Fellow should think very carefully about trying to be involved with both Bearden and AIAS. Some very negative facts have emerged about Bearden, for example his Ph. D. was traced to a post card in Sioux Falls, and apparently he was found not to be able to differentiate the product xy properly with the Leibnitz Theorem. Also there are the perennial, completely false, claims about the KGB, secret weapons and all that, which might conceivably hamper the effort at gaining lasting trust between NATO and the Russian Federation. Bearden is fighting a non-existent war. The MEG turned out to be artifact, and in British Govt. and many other circles Bearden is viewed very negatively. Prof. Hart admitted to be still in correpsondence with Bearden, leaving me with no choice but to terminate all communication with Prof. Hart.[...]

Are you starting to see what kind of reliability all these people (Naudin, Evans, Bearden) have?

Why should one believe ANY of their claims?

Can you tell me?


You say, you are not a scientist. Good. Build the device first. Tell us about your experience. Other people may like to check and to compare their experiences. This is the only way. Otherwise we will be propagating disinformation.

 

[schriss]

Sure, I will try to build because it's extremely simple. Two elecrodes under water, some electricity and that's it.

Anyway, aren't people like Naudin a target #1 for PTB? Aren't all people who surround them set to abandon them, discredit, "terminate all communication" and so on? Just make sure work is not done and device is "artifact".
Just like this poor guy: http://www.aethmogen.com/ "Robert George Adams passed away on the evening of 10th May 2006 in Whakatane Hospital, after recently suffering from a stroke. Robert gave the better part of his life towards the endeavour of unlocking the secrets of free, clean energy."

"in British Govt. and many other circles Bearden is viewed very negatively" - if british or US govt sees someone negatively, that's a good sign ;)

Anyway, if I manage to build that bingo-fuel thing I will post results, if I won't blow my house up after trying to light up that gas with a lighter.

 

[ark]

Sure, I will try to build because it's extremely simple. Two elecrodes under water, some electricity and that's it.

Anyway, aren't people like Naudin a target #1 for PTB? Aren't all people who surround them set to abandon them, discredit, "terminate all communication" and so on?.

No. People like Naudin are disinforming. They put all kind of nonsense on their web sites - whether consciously or not. Probably consciously, because a reasonably thinking person would not publish nonsense. Do not forget that it is a highly developed disinformation network. When Evans, for instance, asks Hart to terminate communication with Bearden - it is not easy to tell who is the bad guy and who is the good guy, right? You need to have lot of other data. Research is needed. What kind of research? Search for nonsense. Now: Bearden is talking nonsense and Evans is talking nonsense. Naudin is quoting their nonsense, so he belongs to the same disinformation camp. Hart is an emeritus professor who is open-minded, and for a while was trying to help Evans. But finally he became convinced that Evans is talking nonsense, so Evans is now excommunicating him from his group. British government is helping Evans to propagate nonsense - so these are bad guys. Bruhn is emeritus professor in Germany who fights nonsense. He is a good guy.

Generally: do not believe anything, check it first. Do not believe, in particular, anything from a liar or from an irresponsible person.

Now, who is discrediting Naudin? Is there a campaign against him? I've never seen any. Who is trying to discredit Bearden? Who is trying to discredit Evans? Tell me, please, and let us investigate the issue?

 

[schriss]

OK, let's drop Naudin. Is HHO - hydrogen or is it something else? I'm no chemist. Can such gas be as powerful as fuel so it could run an engine?

New electrolysis technique ~10x more efficient than current methods to produce a gas termed HHO. The gas is shot out of a nozzle creating discharge and water.

Car powered by water and standard gasoline hybrid. This technology is not explained very well so far as I could find.

 

[ark]

Prof Ruggero Maria Santilli from the Universities of Naples and Turin, Italy has a "scientific paper" which you can download.

Another disinformation. Santilli is is not from Universities of Naples and Turin (see his CV), and about his "scientific papers" are not really scientific.

How do I know? Because I was a studying his papers in details. In fact, at some point in the past, I was trying to help him.

(session February 5, 2000)

Q: What is the deal with this Santilli business? Do they have a machine that is producing free energy, or at least more energy comes out than is put in?
A: No.
Q: Are they opposed to the idea of having somebody come in an have a look because that person might discover that their claims are greatly overrated? Are they using these claims as a lure to get government funding?
A: Will not get government funding. These people must not be aware that the "government" is fully aware of how to produce "free" energy. Some private sources, European in nature, may be interested, though.

That somebody mentioned above was me.

 

[schriss]

Damn, those kits remind me the times I played with those mini-chemist kits, mixing powders, adding liquids :D
I'd love to play with one, I'd build a water powered light source :) Just no idea what would I need it for, but still ;)

"This is a reverisble version of the Eco Electrolyser - the electrolyser can also function as a fuel cell.
Technical data: Power: 2 W, Gas storage 40 cm3 H2; 40 cm3 O2, Fuel Cell 600mW

http://www.minihydrogen.dk/catalog/shop.php?cPath=57

Now, I have seen a demo movie and the electrolyzis seem to work very slowly. This couldn't keep up with a motor engine., it's just for demo purposes.

And seems like there are many websites claiming that they can produce this gas x times more rapidly...