Who controls the other??

luke wilson said:
Alma said:
For me, there is something very important in the existence of women, apart from giving life.

This is what I thought. I just wanna know what this something very important is apart from giving life as alma says.


The importance to which I refer is in the complement with the man in the physical life. Internal y externally, to achieve the objective. Because, again... The body does not matter, what matters is the soul.

This, is a physical densities. And we are acquiring knowledge for be One. And on subjectivity has become an individuality, here. For/by the use of STS forces. We are all important. Nobody is less important or unfortunate. Despite the existential state in which it is.

God was revered like a woman, for being the giver of life. We know physically! that only the women give life. But, ALL! We filed the creation within us.

Cass: You literally, possess incorporated into the profile of your consciousness, all the power that exists within all of creation!

And in another opportunity they said that if we knew how, we could destroy and create.



luke wilson said:
Not what I have personally experienced eventhough women pretty much run my life.
I have witnessed alot of relationships and seen the dynamics in them interms of my friends getting girlfriends. And I have to say, I dont know, it might just be me. But women hold all the power. Seriously, they have there finger on the Veto button. At anytime they could press it and your world will come crashing down. I am not saying just any girl holding sway over any guy. If it is the right girl, the guy like I have seen, will literally move countries, infact will go to several countries just to be with the girl... Tell me that isnt power...


EDIT: It's a vampire. They have no power, see the opportunity to exercise power. The vampires look for another victim, which submit to his power. A person, mentally and emotionally weak, looking for love, someone who understands, appreciates, accepts it as is. etc, etc, etc. All those things that people look for in every day life. Build an ideal person in their dreams, believe they exist. And they start your search. and always ¡¡¡crash!!!. This applies to men and women alike. But, a many men and women who like be absorbed by a vampire. They give their lives. So the vampire, exercise control over victims. If you give them your life. And there are many psychological and emotional blockages. That obscures exactly what happens. Mostly, the choice/solution "let's improving things, talk and be happy forever." There are very emotional people who fall in love, any pretty face and benevolent gesture. This is not the control of women or men.

Love, love subjective. The caprice each person. As I call them "Caprichos con patas" i mean, "caprice with legs", someone built by whims. It is an "Caprice Errant". The people do not often feel love for another person, fall in love with thier "Caprice Errant". Their own desires, personified in someone. When they discover things they not dislike. Start the show, control, problems, pains, etc.

All this is an illusion, but so necessary. If it not were necessary, can't know that this is an illusion.



EDIT: Even if I remember correctly, someone correct me please. Cass had mentioned, that term "man and woman" is not used as we know it in 4-D.
 
luke wilson said:
truth seeker said:
Can I ask, how many girls you know personally (on the same level as your guy friends)?

Ok, I have to fight my ego here before I divulge with the answer.

None! I am sure you can see why now...

This makes all the difference. If you knew more women and actually spoke with them firsthand as opposed to receiving information strictly from your friends (who's vision is also skewed) you might have a more balanced view from both sides.

luke wilson said:
Not what I have personally experienced eventhough women pretty much run my life.

This may hold the clue as to why you feel so powerless.

luke wilson said:
I have witnessed alot of relationships and seen the dynamics in them interms of my friends getting girlfriends. And I have to say, I dont know, it might just be me. But women hold all the power. Seriously, they have there finger on the Veto button. At anytime they could press it and your world will come crashing down. I am not saying just any girl holding sway over any guy. If it is the right girl, the guy like I have seen, will literally move countries, infact will go to several countries just to be with the girl... Tell me that isnt power...

Witnessing is not the same as experiencing. I think you are getting a onesided view from your friends and using it to make broad generalizations. You may want to also take note of how the habit of getting answers from others instead of seeking them out for yourself comes into play here.

luke wilson said:
Also me and my friends, had the privledge of watching one of our friends completely change his character, I mean completely that we were so amused on the account of being with a girl, whilst she did not change or adapt anything in her life for him! This is what I call someone holding real power over someone else.

Perhaps you can ask yourself or your friend why he would give over his own power to someone else? Why is he so desperate to have someone in his life whatever the cost? Did you speak to this girl directly? How do you know that she didn't change anything in her life for him? If the above is true, why would your friend want to be with someone who is not considerate of him and his needs?


luke wilson said:
Yah, I said dionysus with fertility and maybe Apollo with medicine... I hope this is what you meant??
Yes.

luke wilson said:
truth seeker said:
While I appreciate what your friend is telling you, the above doesn't really explain why he finds girls hard to talk to.

Oh before I say this, I must warn you that some people consider him to be abit sexist. Ok, so according to him, girls only talk about, boys and make-up. As he is not an expert in either of those 2 subjects, he therefore has difficulty trying to befriend girls....

Yes, that is sexist. Perhaps that's why very few girls if any want to talk to him? If he thinks he knows something about people before he actually speaks to them, this puts up a wall where little to no conversation can result.

luke wilson said:
Talking to girls is the most difficult thing to do underneath the sun. I mean really, what do you talk about?? I dont understand them... They dont understand me... I see people do this naturally and it blows my mind. Seriously, it is like, wow! The number of links my friend has sent me from wikihow is staggering.... Haha, sad. I know. I am a sad sad person! Should be the most natural thing underneath the stars yet for some unlucky few, like me. It isnt.

First, I think you're viewing women as some mysterious thing you will never understand. You need to drop that idea as it already sets you up as being not worthy. Thinking you are not worthy will attract someone who wants to take advantage of that. If it attracts someone who does not want to take advantage of your feelings of unworthiness, you will sabotage the relationship because you will not be able to see the true value in that person.

The guys that get along best with women (in a healthy dynamic) are the ones that treat women as individuals and people. How do you like to be treated? Do you like to be judged? Do you like people to really listen to you when you speak? What kind of women are you interested in? Are the women you're interested look a certain way? What qualities do you appreciate in women? Do you have those same qualities in yourself so that you can give as well as receive?
 
Others have given you great advice, so this is fwiw:

Instead of viewing boys as boys and girls as girls, you might want to view them all as (souled) beings who are here to learn. (Not saying that this should be your one view, but just a different perspective among the others)

All you see is the outer layer, but what is beneath is much more in some individuals.

It's also important to not determine the needs of others (that is based on assumptions). Thinking that girls want this or that and that you might not be worthy or not what they need or seek (as someone to talk to/as a friend), is all determining their needs. And remaining as objective as possible is also important.
Think more in 'individuals' than 'all girls', but also don't forget that we're all machines.

luke wilson said:
Talking to girls is the most difficult thing to do underneath the sun. I mean really, what do you talk about?? I dont understand them... They dont understand me... I see people do this naturally and it blows my mind. Seriously, it is like, wow! The number of links my friend has sent me from wikihow is staggering.... Haha, sad. I know. I am a sad sad person! Should be the most natural thing underneath the stars yet for some unlucky few, like me. It isnt.

Are you not talking to girls here? :P

What about school or work? Or hobbies? You seem to have a general idea of how you assume girls are. But there are some things you can talk about and with certain individuals you might have more things to talk about if you share the same interests. If you already think it is difficult without trying, then it is you that makes it difficult.
It's also important of course to remain realistic, but without anticipating. Now it is better to not go hunting to go get a girlfriend, but you could perhaps try to talk to girls and observe what happens. But observation without knowledge is not really something you can work with, so I hope you're still reading :)

The Wave explains quite a lot how one can behave in certain situations if they choose to and wish to grow.

You also might find this interesting:

Michael "Jurassic park" Crichton.
Originally Published February 1988


Love Is...

Most of the people I know confuse love with possession. It's easy to see why; it's built into the fundamental assumptions of our culture. "You're mine," says the popular song, "and we belong together." Hardly anyone stops to question the sentiment.

As soon as we feel love, we immediately attempt to possess. We speak confidently of my boyfriend, my wife, my child, my parent. We feel justified in holding expectations about those people. We consider that perfectly reasonable.

Why? Because all our concepts of love ultimately derive from romantic love — and romantic love is furiously, frantically possessive. We want to be with our lover, to have them to ourselves, to feel their eyes on us, to consume their minds and bodies...to possess them.

So strongly do we equate love with possession that we may even feel if someone doesn't want to possess us, they don't really love us. Yet I would argue that what we call romantic love is not love at all. It's a kind of emotional storm, an overpowering, thrilling attraction — but it isn't love.

Because real love isn't possessive. It can't be. We'd all agree that love involves giving, not taking. Yet the desire to possess actually springs from the lover's own need — the need for approval from the beloved, for support from a parent, for straight A's from a child, for status, for financial security — for something. A possessive lover is overly focused on what he's getting, not what he's giving. The lover may dignify his dependency with the name love, but it's a lie. How can you really love somebody when you're dependent on them for things you need? That isn't love, that's just manipulation to keep the needed stuff coming your way. Robert Palmer sings about being "addicted to love," but nobody really is. People are addicted to their needs.

And love isn't the same as need. It just isn't.

Of course, a loving relationship will produce interdependencies. But all too often, the pleasure of freely giving changes to a fear of possibly not getting. It's just that this person — your husband, your girlfriend, your child — is suddenly so important to you. You worry about what's going to happen. What they're going to do. And at that moment, love stops.

People sometimes wonder if they're feeling real love. These same people never wonder if they're sexually aroused, or sad. Then what's the problem about recognizing love? Most often, because they're sensing a conflict: they're feeling the depth of their need, not the heights of their love.

There are ways to know real love. It feels calm. It's steady, and it can easily last a lifetime. It's nourishing — people grow under its influence. They become who they really are, and now what someone expects them to be. Real love isn't blind; on the contrary, people feel understood, accepted for who they really are. It's healing. People recover.

So whenever you hear that love is blind, or love can't last, or love is destructive, you can be sure that you're hearing a description of lust, or desire, or need. And it's an accurate description, because needs really are transient and destructive.

But love is something else entirely. An emotion of deep caring that asks nothing in return, an emotion that is fulfilling without any expectation at all, is so rare that most people in our society can't imagine it. They can't imagine feeling it, or receiving it. They may even come to believe it doesn't exist. But it does.

And it's the best thing there is.
 
anart said:
I think finishing reading the Wave and the Adventure series would be a good idea.

I am going to finish the wave today. Hopefully. Got the last 1 and a half chapters to read... Then done!

I am looking forward to the conclusion.
 
Oxajil said:
People sometimes wonder if they're feeling real love. These same people never wonder if they're sexually aroused, or sad. Then what's the problem about recognizing love? Most often, because they're sensing a conflict: they're feeling the depth of their need, not the heights of their love.

There are ways to know real love. It feels calm. It's steady, and it can easily last a lifetime. It's nourishing — people grow under its influence. They become who they really are, and now what someone expects them to be. Real love isn't blind; on the contrary, people feel understood, accepted for who they really are. It's healing. People recover.

So whenever you hear that love is blind, or love can't last, or love is destructive, you can be sure that you're hearing a description of lust, or desire, or need. And it's an accurate description, because needs really are transient and destructive.


I once went to a play, call "Las Meninas" (Which by the way, I did not want to attend.) and the character of "Infanta Margarita" (What I remember, and what woke me, rather) says:

"What is love? [...] Then, means that the love is everything that I do not know?..."
 
Michael "Jurassic park" Crichton.
Originally Published February 1988


Love Is...

Most of the people I know confuse love with possession. It's easy to see why; it's built into the fundamental assumptions of our culture. "You're mine," says the popular song, "and we belong together." Hardly anyone stops to question the sentiment.

As soon as we feel love, we immediately attempt to possess. We speak confidently of my boyfriend, my wife, my child, my parent. We feel justified in holding expectations about those people. We consider that perfectly reasonable.

Why? Because all our concepts of love ultimately derive from romantic love — and romantic love is furiously, frantically possessive. We want to be with our lover, to have them to ourselves, to feel their eyes on us, to consume their minds and bodies...to possess them.

So strongly do we equate love with possession that we may even feel if someone doesn't want to possess us, they don't really love us. Yet I would argue that what we call romantic love is not love at all. It's a kind of emotional storm, an overpowering, thrilling attraction — but it isn't love.

Because real love isn't possessive. It can't be. We'd all agree that love involves giving, not taking. Yet the desire to possess actually springs from the lover's own need — the need for approval from the beloved, for support from a parent, for straight A's from a child, for status, for financial security — for something. A possessive lover is overly focused on what he's getting, not what he's giving. The lover may dignify his dependency with the name love, but it's a lie. How can you really love somebody when you're dependent on them for things you need? That isn't love, that's just manipulation to keep the needed stuff coming your way. Robert Palmer sings about being "addicted to love," but nobody really is. People are addicted to their needs.

And love isn't the same as need. It just isn't.

Of course, a loving relationship will produce interdependencies. But all too often, the pleasure of freely giving changes to a fear of possibly not getting. It's just that this person — your husband, your girlfriend, your child — is suddenly so important to you. You worry about what's going to happen. What they're going to do. And at that moment, love stops.

People sometimes wonder if they're feeling real love. These same people never wonder if they're sexually aroused, or sad. Then what's the problem about recognizing love? Most often, because they're sensing a conflict: they're feeling the depth of their need, not the heights of their love.

There are ways to know real love. It feels calm. It's steady, and it can easily last a lifetime. It's nourishing — people grow under its influence. They become who they really are, and now what someone expects them to be. Real love isn't blind; on the contrary, people feel understood, accepted for who they really are. It's healing. People recover.

So whenever you hear that love is blind, or love can't last, or love is destructive, you can be sure that you're hearing a description of lust, or desire, or need. And it's an accurate description, because needs really are transient and destructive.

But love is something else entirely. An emotion of deep caring that asks nothing in return, an emotion that is fulfilling without any expectation at all, is so rare that most people in our society can't imagine it. They can't imagine feeling it, or receiving it. They may even come to believe it doesn't exist. But it does.

And it's the best thing there is.

Wow. Thank you for this wonderful article, Oxajil. It's beautifully written. And very, very true.


To luke wilson:
From your words it seems like you treat women like some sort of mysterious, alien creatures, who posses almost magical powers. Like they are not really human. On the other hand, you seem to think that most of them (or 'us' as I am also a woman) are only interested in squeezing men from their money, buying pretty things and discuss topics like fashion or make-up. Meaning, they don't have anything in common with men.
At least you give that impression.

And you are partially right. Some women are indeed like that. Rather shallow. They love going to parties and flirting with random men. Their interests circling around new fashion trends, petty affairs and material goods.
But so are men. They can be shallow too. And it's almost positive that those kind of women will attract only those kind of men, and vice versa.
Regarding your friend you've talked about, considering that he perceives females in that manner speaks length about him, too.

I can tell you about women I know. One different that other, but none of them is even similar to the kind I describe above. Most of them are book lovers. They like to write stories and novels (different kind of genres, even military fantasy) and they are good at it, too. They like to discuss things like politics, psychology and sociology and many other subjects. Almost none of them is interested in fashion at all (not that I think being interested in fashion is bad - but only if one is not obsessed with it). Of course some of them like to go to parties, but simply to dance and have fun not to cruising for men.
I'm not saying they are perfect, because they aren't. They are humans with flaws. They are machines. And what's sad, they don't want to know that they are machines. That's why our ways parted, because I can't talk with them anymore, can't be with them and be myself. But I try to respect their choice.


And I would like to quote Oxajil once more:

Instead of viewing boys as boys and girls as girls, you might want to view them all as (souled) beings who are here to learn. (Not saying that this should be your one view, but just a different perspective among the others)

All you see is the outer layer, but what is beneath is much more in some individuals.

It's also important to not determine the needs of others (that is based on assumptions). Thinking that girls want this or that and that you might not be worthy or not what they need or seek (as someone to talk to/as a friend), is all determining their needs. And remaining as objective as possible is also important.
Think more in 'individuals' than 'all girls', but also don't forget that we're all machines.

It's very good advice.
 
Thanks for the replies. Alot to think about.

The guys that get along best with women (in a healthy dynamic) are the ones that treat women as individuals and people. How do you like to be treated? Do you like to be judged? Do you like people to really listen to you when you speak? What kind of women are you interested in? Are the women you're interested look a certain way? What qualities do you appreciate in women? Do you have those same qualities in yourself so that you can give as well as receive?

The one thing I despise the most is being judged and yes this is the thing that mostly happens to me. I think the universe is trying to show me something. I had this discussion earlier on and it transpired that I might be guilty interms of judging others. Ok, so I am now working on not judging other people, this includes girls.

I am not going to lie, whenever I come within the proximity of a girl whose around my age, good looking etc, a million programs instantaneously switch on and I go into self destruct mode. Thing is, I have had more than enough time to practise this, try and get a handle on it.

I will tell you what happened. About this time last year, I decided enough was enough so I decided I was going to bring this under control. Ok, so I made a deliberate conscious effort to talk to girls. To try and know them. Lo and behold acouple of months down the line a girl actually wants to hang out with me. Ok, we become friends. We hang out, to some degree. Ok, however it is different, it is not the same as hanging out with one of my guy friends. I find I cannot be overly expressive or rather I cannot be myself. Ok, I try to be myself, but it is a constant battle. I try my best but my best is not good enough. So our friendship dies, naturally. A nice slow gradual death. Nothing sudden. I am sat there seeing this happen, knowing ok, somewhere something went wrong but it's to late now, the ship is sinking and is now beyond the point of no return.

Ok however, during this time I find I am more capable of talking to more girls. More easier. I learn to not anticipate, to not be so tense. To just relax. Ok good. Problem is the discussion is all superficial. Superficial stuff. It's almost not worth it! It is either they are way toooo superficial or way tooo serious! Where is the middle ground??? Anyways that is my take on it at this point in time. I know the problem clearly lies with me. Something I am doing, something about me is not right. I cant seem to get this talking to/befriending girls business right.

Ok, some people are saying, see them as souls. Ok, how? They are clearly girls... How can I ignore that and see the soul behind the body...

I cant blame this entirely on programs. There are a million guys out there who are fast asleep and under the mercy of a million programs yet they can perform these very simple tasks. The problem I fear for me is fundamental... Something somewhere didnt get wired right... I may have to live with the consequences for the rest of my life.

"What kind of women are you interested in? Are the women you're interested look a certain way? What qualities do you appreciate in women? Do you have those same qualities in yourself so that you can give as well as receive?"

I am going to be blantly honest. My criteria after years of failure is non-existant now. A non-pathological attractive[subjective as beauty is in the eye of the beholder] girl is more than any guy can ask for - for now I am not in the privledged position where I can exercise my right to choose. Ok, I'd like to think I am non-pathological myself... So yah in this respect I can give aswell as receive.

EDIT
: Ok on the subject of honesty. I am not really bothered about not having any girls who are just friends - infact I'd go as far as saying I dont really want a girl who is just a friend to the level that I am friends with some guys that I know, why? Because I could never view her like I view my guy friends. I have enough guy friends already to fill the friends quota! I am just worried that I am going to die alone - omg in the whole mighty universe of the animal kingdom I am in the lowest ranked box interms of experiences with the opposite sex, this is appalling to the highest degree! Why oh why, what did I ever do to the universe for it to be so merciless to me!!!!
 
luke wilson said:
I am just worried that I am going to die alone - omg in the whole mighty universe of the animal kingdom I am in the lowest ranked box interms of experiences with the opposite sex, this is appalling to the highest degree! Why oh why, what did I ever do to the universe for it to be so merciless to me!!!!

Why is it appalling? Why is it merciless? What is the actual reason for the worry?

Really, if you think - why, and how, does it matter? What in you - and outside of you - tells you that it is an issue? Is it Real?
 
The reason that to other do well, is that they work with compatible software. But, that you can see them, does not makes you a software more updated.

You can start try to see them and accept them as they are. You need not always be liked by the people. Understand that they are like want to be, not as you expect them to be, depending on your good behavior, conforming to them. Okay, you want to socialize, but, as you continue pressing things, without understanding yourself, just you'll get bad impressions, and will continue to fuel a bad vision. You start being yourself, for yourself.

You have been speaking from experience of others, seeing the bad experiences of others, and when two bad experiences blindly join, just have bad things to say. You need your own experience, open your mind and read everything you've yourself written, and certainly, reading the books cited. To discern why people are always in the same circle, why you are always in the same situation.
 
Thanks alma and psalehesost.

psalehehost said:
Why is it appalling? Why is it merciless? What is the actual reason for the worry?

Really, if you think - why, and how, does it matter? What in you - and outside of you - tells you that it is an issue? Is it Real?

Ok I know where the worry comes from. It comes from the artificially planted programmes that society imprints in us that tell us we need to be this and that way and that if you dont conform to these images there is something wrong with you.

Ok so I dont conform to the image, so I go and complain to the universe and ask, why? why dont I conform? What did I do so as to not conform?

Ok the thing in me that tells me this is an issue is the predators mind. I have come to ignore it with regard to this matter. By that I mean I dont punish myself with this matter in like an emotional way anymore. I am past that! I am ok - a life of living in such a way is enough to drive anyone into the darkest reaches of his nightmares and force one to confront himself as I discovered with great pain and finally to come out having survived the horror. From reading the article on Love, I come to realize that the desire, the desire is a reflection of my own emptiness. A void in my Being and this void creates desires that I go and chase.

I think this applies to one extent or another.

"Most often, because they're sensing a conflict: they're feeling the depth of their need, not the heights of their love."

Now my aim is to work on understanding this void and what it tells me about me as alma suggests.

Truth seeker asked me why I feel powerless when it comes to girls. Well it is simple, I just figured out why. Because I cannot do anything. If I make a conscious move to befriend a girl, it is because I will be wanting something back in return. That is STS I can see now, weird that I naturally acted this way for a long time without having known the concepts of STS/STO. So I have to refrain, let life happen. Maybe at one point life will drive me, has driven me in a natural way to meet girls. To talk to them, to know them, to exchange ideas. However it hasnt driven me to anything more than this. Ok, so patience is the key. Patience, that word. I dont like it because it implies alot of time has to pass, like alot of time hasnt passed already!!!

I have mirrored this interms of my friendship with guys. They just happen, I dont go out and consciously look to befriend guys, instead it happens almost naturallly. Through the order of life. Ok so this tells me that me going out to consciously try and befriend girls will be acting abit prematurely. Will be passing a judgement on the universe that I disagree, this is how things are meant to be. I dont think the universe will be best pleased.
 
luke wilson said:
Ok, so patience is the key. Patience, that word. I dont like it because it implies alot of time has to pass, like alot of time hasnt passed already!!!

Look, If you see the pacience that way, with the desire to run. Obviously, you will feel that something is missing, in fact, you're missing a lot, perhaps everything. Do not you realize what you may be missing something, for jumping the road. Patience pays and bears to wait carefully, thoughtfully, discovering during that "time" your soul in the natural course of creation, so you can see the right time, what you should do, when you must do.

EDIT: An example of what you could lose, the understand the meaning of paciencia, que is more than words. Because in the books, that word appears in different forms and has been a great tool to read all this work. Not is wonder that you are missing little to finish reading the wave, and follow desperate. You are jumping. You are not enjoying the scenery offered by the way.
 
lw said:
Ok on the subject of honesty. I am not really bothered about not having any girls who are just friends - infact I'd go as far as saying I dont really want a girl who is just a friend to the level that I am friends with some guys that I know, why? Because I could never view her like I view my guy friends. I have enough guy friends already to fill the friends quota!

lw said:
If I make a conscious move to befriend a girl, it is because I will be wanting something back in return. That is STS I can see now, weird that I naturally acted this way for a long time without having known the concepts of STS/STO. So I have to refrain, let life happen.

So basically you don't want a friend that is a girl, you want a girlfriend. What's the main difference between the two? While there's much more to this, most people think sex first. So what you may want is sex and sex with no effort. Without having to really give anything back in return as you said. Unfortunately this stereotypes you. There are many people like this walking around. There is nothing special about it. Nothing that sets those people apart.

Perhaps you can try and view this from some girl's point of view. If the girl is used to being viewed as little more than an object to be used, don't you think that might make one wary of most people?

In order to get to true intimacy (if that's what you're seeking) is to start off as friends first and go from there. I think it would take huge amounts of pressure off you as well in terms of trying to act a certain way.

While I wouldn't suggest walking up to women in the street, I would say to take your time and practice when the situation presents itself. If you find yourself at a get together or something, just talk to people. By people, I mean many types, not just women who look attractive to you. Talk to guys that seem as if they don't "fit" into your circle. This is the only way to get to know people. Direct experience. If your friend comes up to you and starts complaining about a girl, find out for yourself.

Don't just look at your current friends in order to figure out who you are, decide for yourself first and then seek out those who match that. Yes, it takes time but all of us have and still do deal with this.
 
Luke,

I am going to quote two posts that Laura made in this thread for you.
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=11550.0
Perhaps you may like to consider them.


Laura said:
I have had a number of thoughts about love that I would like to share that are based on personal experience and observation, not to mention years of helping others with their relationship problems.

One thing that kept going around in my mind over the past couple of days was what Gurdjieff said about love:

Gurdjieff said:
"Conscious love evokes the same in response.
Emotional love evokes the opposite.
Physical love depends on type and polarity."

What, exactly, did he mean by these three statements?

When he said "physical love depends on type and polarity" he was probably talking about the type of individuals involved and whether or not there was a good "match" between the individuals' in terms of their type (man 1, 2, 3) and their traits (polarity) etc. In short, he seems to be suggesting that love that begins as a physical attraction MIGHT work in some cases depending on the variables involved. That's really like saying it is a crapshoot for most people, though obviously something could be made of it if the individuals (or someone) at least were able to see their type and polarity and make a "educated choice." In other words, for it to work, it almost has to move into the realm of "conscious love."

Emotional love, as his little aphorism depicts it, seems to be describing projection... we know that one pretty well. One person gets his emotions cranking, projects onto another an image of something that this other cannot (or probably cannot) ever be, and more or less makes emotional demands that cannot be met which then deteriorates into resentment and finally disunion or even hate. This can also describe “love” with a psychopath. The psychopath induces the emotions, generates the projection process, and bingo!

We've certainly had enough examples of that sort of thing to look at (not to mention, many of us experiencing it; it might be the most common type of relation that passes for "love.")

But what about conscious love that evokes the same in response? What exactly is this?

Well, I've been thinking a lot about it over the past few years, thinking about my own experiences, including my relationship with Ark, things the Cs have said, and here is what occurs to me to say:

When two individuals encounter one another there can be reactions from any one or combination, or all three, of the above "centers" - intellectual/consciousnes, emotional, moving/sex center/physical body.

If the first reaction is physical, the sex center energy can make the emotional center begin to move and this emotional and/or sex/moving cener energy can then be usurped by the intellect and the individual begins to dream and to manufacture reasons why what the body/sex center wants is good and "real love" or whatever.

As we know, this is a path full of traps and tricks and can lead to disaster. Yet it is the usual way in the world and the source of incredible misery and suffering. Most of us come from families where this was the mode of interaction between our parents, the reasons they got married. I don't think I need to give all the examples of how this works. We can see that this can create the "emotional love projection" and so on.

That's not to say that once in a while a relationship that starts this way can't work out. But if it does, it is a function of other centers taking over at the appropriate moment and the likelihood of that happening is pretty remote.

Of course, the chances of such an attraction working are greatly increased if the individuals encounter one another in particular situations. For example, if you go to a bar, you generally go to "meet people" and the people who go to bars to meet people are generally interested mainly in meeting them for sexual reasons, not intellectual or spiritual reasons (though they may lie to themselves about their reasons to make it “okay”.) The same can be true for about any venue: if you go to a chess club to meet people (rather than to play chess), you may meet a different kind of person, but you will still be going there for reasons other than chess and if you meet someone who is there to meet people too, then both of you have met for reasons other than chess and probably are lying to the self. If, on the other hand, you are going to play chess and others are going to play chess, and you meet someone and form a relationship based on your mutual interest in chess which then blossoms, there is more hope for such a relationship. That is, you are not being driven by the moving/sex center and/or emotional center which is hungry, to go to the chess club to "meet someone", even if this is veiled in excuses to the self that you are going because you like chess.

What I mean to say is if you go somewhere for a pure and true interest and you HAPPEN to meet someone else in that venue who is also there for similar honest reasons, that is, they have not come there for the express (even if hidden) purpose of "meeting someone", then at least you have the possibility of having something in common.

Hope that's clear.

Continuing...

Two people meet in a particular environment where they have arrived NOT for the purpose of "finding someone," but because they are there for deeper reasons. Already the odds are in their favor a LITTLE bit.

Now, suppose that in this encounter, rather quickly, the moving/sex center feels a physical attraction and kicks the emotional center and the sex and emotional energy suffuses the intellect. Well, that can really complicate things as we have observed, but still, there is a chance that once this sort of energy has burned off that there is something fundamental there to work with in terms of real love. It can take time and it can involve suffering – even a LOT of suffering - but there is that one factor that the two individuals at least encountered one another in a particular context that did NOT include being driven by the moving/sex center.

Of course, it is possible for the moving/sex center to drive a person to do certain things because that energy is being consumed by other centers. If a person joins a chess club because their sex center energy makes them fanatical about chess, a sort of chess revolutionary, then there can be problems. If a person joins a church because their sex center energy is driving them to religious fanaticism, same thing... Gurdjieff talks about this as "the abuse of sex." That really amounts to lying to the self about why you do things.

But anyway, getting back to our theoretical situations: two people meet in a particular context that gives some positive environmental factors to their meeting even if they have some problems with emotional center management. All kinds of pain and lessons can ensue from this even if there is good reason to think that the two individuals are good or right for each other! After all, they met NOT because they were out there "hunting for sex" or hunting to feed their false personality - but because they had a sincere interest in the context which brought them together.

It is also possible that two such people can do irreparable damage to each other even if they are right for each other (indicated by the context in which they met) because the sex center and emotional center energy starts flooding their systems and causing them to lie to each other and to themselves, or at least, to not be completely sincere and externally considerate of one another.

So, how to proceed?

Remember this from Gurdjieff:

"The chief means of happiness in this life is the ability to consider externally always, internally never."

And, generally, when one is considering relationships between people who are wounded, where the centers are not balanced, this is a very difficult objective to attain.

The Knightly ideal seems to be a good model: There are dragons imprisoning the princess in the tower and the knight must slay them, but he needs SOME help from the Princess who must give him certain information to help him. Then, once he has freed her from the tower, she must help him rest and recover or even heal wounds received in the battle with HER dragon.

That's the metaphor for dealing with emotional programs and discombobulated (that's a technical term) relationships of centers.

What does it mean in practical terms?

Well, it will be different for different relationships because of the individual differences in nature and polarities and so on. Here's where Gurdjieff's remark about physical love also comes into play.

In general, we have observed that MOST of the time, the man plays the knightly role (we are talking about people working on themselves, not people “out there” who have no knowledge of The Work) but it does happen that this can shift back and forth depending on the issue at hand. SOMEtimes, the woman can be the symbolic knight and slay a dragon plaguing the man - but that is not very common. Usually, the dynamic follows the metaphor pretty closely.

How does this "dragon slaying" play out in practical terms?

It involves knowledge and elimination of barriers to intimacy. After all, the knight and the princess in the tower actually represent the two soul essences that wish to unite and become one.

Because of our life experiences, our dragons are programs (buffers in Gudjieffspeak) that form in our natures - our false personality, so to say - as a means of dealing with what amounts to crazy-making environments usually created by parents who married for the wrong reasons and live out their lives in dysfunctional situations that turn them into narcissists and vampires in respect of each other, their children, everyone they know to one degree or another.

When, as children, our expectations or trust has been repeatedly damaged in small and not so small ways, we become tense and suspicious and defensive. When we are tense and suspicious and defensive, we stop communicating openly. Our communication becomes "formulaic" - what we believe we can safely say without getting hurt - and narrow, what we think the other person wants to hear. This is a major dragon that must be slain.

Why?

Because if there is no true and honest, essence to essence communication, there is NO intimacy.

The most important thing about a relationship is that the two people share CLEAR and HONEST information about each other. And this means not just what the false personality judges to be clear and honest according to the emotional energy that can start running the show, but objectively clear and honest.

If information is shared that is cloudy or mystifying or confusing, intimacy is not possible.

Our wounded emotions will tend to make us hear and see only what we want to see and hear. We cherry pick info from our environment as "evidence" of what we want to be true. And very often, what we want to be true is that we want to replicate the environment in which we grew up where we were trying so desperately to get real love and attention. We want to replicate this old and dysfunctional environment because we want to "fix it." This is generally a function of the physical attraction which seeks to replicate that old dynamic ...

When, in a relationship, a person is blocked by either their own programs, (buffers) or by the behavior of the other person (their programs/buffers), from giving clear information and having that information received and understood, it feels like an invasion of our sanity. That is "crazy-making." It can be as crazy-making as not getting clear information from the other person. And it is particularly bad when it concerns our emotions.

The fear of communicating directly and the fear of receiving direct and honest communication is equally bad... and can destroy a relationship even between two people who are "right" for each other.

The fear of saying what we feel can result in us shutting down our feelings altogether!!! We begin to censor not only externally, but internally. We get caught in a trap of denying to others AND TO OURSELVES, what we really feel.

We all have the right to our feelings. But, as children, the actions begin that shut those feelings down, stunt them, freeze them at an infantile state of development. When our parents try to impose THEIR views on us, to convince us that we do not feel the way we do, that we must feel the way THEY do, we also become angry. And the feeling of anger, not being acceptable, is also suppressed. We may get angry at our parent and they then switch into "victim" or "martyr" mode, and we feel guilty for our feelings of aggression, so we sacrifice our feelings for peace and goodwill.

All of these programs are dragons that must be slain so that the knight and princess can come together.

Good mental health and good physical health requires that we perceive the realities of our lives as clearly and accurately as possible.

A good relationship requires that we can share these perceptions honestly and openly and even find resonance in our partner.

When the other person constantly forces us (by subtle or not-so-subtle means) to constantly deny or suppress reality as we perceive it because THEY have some kind of program running, when we must deny what we see, hear and feel for the sake of "peace and goodwill," life and the relationship is deteriorating and out of control.

In the mind of the individual who is thinking with emotional energy or sexual/moving center energy, the person who is running false personality programs and so on, there is the conviction that what they are doing is being "right" and "good" and "doing their duty as they perceive it" and so on. But essentially, they are only trying to cope with their own lack of inner control (unable to resist the negative introject that runs their life also known as programs/buffers) by trying to control another.

Recognizing these dynamics is "seeing the dragon."

Okay, I'm not going to talk about this so much in terms of pathology in this post because that is not what we are dealing with right here. We are talking about people who at least "see the dragon" and know that they must deal with it.

So, we come back to honest communication, external considering ever and internal considering never.

Isn't that something of a contradiction?

Not really. If BOTH partners are equally sincere in their efforts to see that the dragons are slain, the external considering of one will act FOR the other. It will become a sort of objective internal considering. Get that? It's subtle and tricky, but important.

Okay, so the two people are embarked on engaging intellectually to really get to know one another. If they can go a certain distance and realize that they really want to become more intellectually intimate, this is what leads to emotional engagement and the desire and ability to help one another slay dragons, etc.

So, the minds join (and this may be a function of the context of meeting assuming that both are equally sincere in their reason for being present in the context) and THEN the emotions begin to engage... and here is where the battles with dragons are fought.

The energy goes from the head to the heart, so to say.

It is after the period of engagement with the dragons and bringing the emotional natures together that one can then consider it appropriate to "commit/marry".

Keep in mind that sex is a bonding experience on many levels. It is not always true, but MOST often, problems arise because the proper order is not followed. If sex comes first, you end up bonding in a way that is not healthy. Or you bond with someone that you ought not to bond with, only you don't figure this out for a long time - when the "glue" of the bond wears off by the agitation of the unbonded (and unbondable) emotional and intellectual centers. I’ll have more to say about this in relation to psychopathy in another post.

So, to recap: one soul meets another, the two souls make themselves known to one another via true communication and this creates a REAL emotional bond, and from there, the energy spreads and the body can be properly set on fire for the fusion of true love where the two people grow together day by day until they are no longer two, but one.

Becoming one is not just self-integration... it can be the union of souls where the communication is the means of the completion - communication on ALL levels: intellectual, emotional, physical which then leads to the birth of the spiritual One.

As the Cs described it: "I am become One, Creator of Worlds."


Laura said:
Notice this in particular:

WWLP said:
After the attraction phase has begun, emotional and physical intimacy creates a love bond. In the early stages of intimacy building, verbal sharing of feelings and ideas lay the foundation of the love bond. Men high in psychopathic traits don’t have the normal spectrum of emotions so they compensate by being great talkers. A range of intense emotions generally makes normal men less talkative because they feel inhibited by these emotions. Men usually don’t cope with emotions by sharing them the way women do. Women then tend to read the psychopath’s sharing of “emotions” in a positive light. Psychopaths are known for their “gift of gab” from which their charm and charisma flow. Women often think they have hit the jackpot with the psychopath because they are used to inhibited normal men, who don’t talk much about their feelings. But along comes the loose-tongued psychopath who can charm her with the flowery language of love. Sharing of feelings, talking, and early eye-gazing are the beginning phases of creating the woman’s love bond. The more they talk, share feelings, spend time together, and make intense eye contact, the deeper she will attach.

This is the key to what I was writing about above: the intellectual center is engaged and the potential lovers come to know one another deeply via communication. The psychopath totally fakes this phase with lies and a mask.

That then fires up the emotional center.... which kicks the moving/sex center into gear and off they go.

It's actually worse than having a relationship with an ordinary person who is just physically attractive. In this latter case, when the physical attraction wears off, that's it, finis, over, sayonara. It hurts some, but it doesn't feel like your soul has been eaten.

With the psychopath, the woman has been engaged on all three levels IN THE CORRECT ORDER. But it is all based on fraud, lies, imitation, mimicry.

I think that there is something about this order of engagement that we need to pay attention to.

As for the "risk taking correlate," I'm not sure that this is exactly what it appears to be. In the case of the psychopath, they take risks not so much because they have high testosterone but because they have a LACK of fear of consequences, a lack of imagination of consequences and future. In the case of the women involved, it may relate more to having an imagination and also being generally courageous, keeping in mind that courage is not lack of fear, but rather doing things in spite of fear. I think that this aspect should have been broken down and examined more carefully, but that's really a minor issue.

What we see with the "normal guys" who are inhibited is that their fear controls them. A woman who is courageous and is not controlled by her fears (even if she has them) may find it difficult to respect a man who is controlled by emotional inhibitions. That is the problem of the intellect usurping the energy of the emotional center - men whose thinking is controlled by their damaged and/or undeveloped emotions.

Yes, indeed, normal men are at a very distinct disadvantage in comparison with the psychopath who creates the illusion of a guy whose mind is not entrapped by his neuroses.

But what if sincere guys, guys with heart and a lot to offer, could learn to get over their neuroses and perform this evolutionarily programmed courting process properly and with truth and honor?
 

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