Who's asking? (how to be an STO candidate)

[Ben]

I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread on a topic which I'm sure is a regular dilemma for anyone who has dedicated sufficient time, energy and objectivity to understand the vast amount of information available through Cassiopaea and SotT. This is, how to determine whether or not somebody you know is genuinely interested in finding out more and doing their own research when you introduce them to this information. That is to say, who is really asking for the truth?

Obviously most of us here feel that we have come across a resource which seems to be lead us to the best explanations available for the state of the world, THE paradigm in which the theory is formed by the facts, not the other way around. As we are in the minority, our lives are filled with those people who we are concerned for, wondering whether it would be possible for them to join us for mutual advancement of our understanding. My original perspective when I first came across this site and the Ra material was that I wanted to tell everyone I could, I saw it as the most important thing I could do. Now my perspective has matured, and I see that my priority should be work on myself and provide this information to those that want it, and celebrate free will and the diversity of creation by giving everything its due. The problem is, I have spent many hours with many people telling them everything I could about the answers I think I have, and I think I present a good case which prevents people from coming to conclusions such as: 'he's mad', 'I've heard this before', 'he is not thinking critically enough' etc. The vast majority of people have shown little interest in doing their own research and verifying what I have told them, though a few have been successfully 'converted' :D

The obvious answer to the dilemma is to present the information online or in books, freely available to those which choose to read it. I think somebody's already done a rather good job of that, though, and I see little point in dispersing our efforts as opposed to networking in the interests of colinearity. That leaves us with the difficult decision of who to approach with our 'world view', who is interested, who cares, who wants to do something about it? The main problem for the people in my life has not been adherence to some sort of doctrine or little interest in profound questions, but rather that the disinfo has got to them first and coloured their perspective against such concepts as 'conspiracy theories', 'extraterrestrials', 'psi phenomena' etc. I've come to the conclusion that it takes a certain kind of person to advance substantially with their own research into this, and that the nature of the material chooses who will show the objectivity required.

But still, the situation on Earth looks worse than we all thought (in one sense, for those of us who were complete materialists it now looks wonderful beyond our comprehension). We want to respect the free will of our friends and family but we feel an obligation to tell them the truth, to give them the choice and mostly we don't want them manipulated, confused and basically, food. So there's my thoughts on this, what about you?

 

[Guest]

A mind is like a parachute, it doesn't work if it's not open

I think this quote of yours is a good place to start. Different minds open at different altitudes and some don't open at all. Ideally, a mind that can open, opens when the time is right for it to do so. You cannot force-open minds resistant to it. It think that is one of the main things to understand from the discussion on Organic Portals.

So you can throw out the information and minds ready for it will catch it and/or seek those minds on an individual level, one or more at a time. You can throw playful hints and see if they strike a chord. If you don't know who you are dealing with (and even if you think you know) it may be best to supply them with your view in small doses until they encourage you for more. And then you have to watch out that 4D STS does not use them to against you if they are so prone.

I would expect that more people will accept the spirit of the truth far easier than the letter, so a more general approach can allow them to understand things on their terms and then they may even be open to understand it on yours.

Just a few thoughts here.

 

[Green_Manalishi]

I agree with you, i also found that the best way is to use the small hint technique, especially in more earth to earth matters because these are less subjective (and also I don’t think I have the sufficient knowledge to hint about matters that are not so earth to earth, that are more, let’s say, spiritual). Sometimes I don’t even expect that person to tag along with me, it could be just a starting point, and along the way if we encounter at some point, it’s an “extra”.
In a way this is probably the only way to do this, because change must always come from within, if a person really wants to dive head on into these “realms” it really cannot be imposed from an outside source, otherwise that person will lose it’s interest (that it never had in the first place).

These are little, tiny, surface skimming questions designed to get somebody to scratch their noggin and maybe trigger a tiny lightbulb that will launch them into a personal quest. Alas, the best I get is maybe a: "yeah, Oswald might not have done it alone, but so what? There's nothing I can do about it."

I had an experience somewhat similar to this a few days ago. I was reading the information posted here in the forum about what NASA wasn’t telling us about Mars. I showed a picture that really resembled a tree or a bush on Mars surface, and mentioned that the sky in Mars could actually be blue to a relative of mine (these facts could be wrong, but that’s not the point here). He said something like, “ok, so what I can’t go there”. It’s like if people can’t reach it materially, they don’t care about it. If that information is correct, the possibilities that open are huge, just to think about it is enough for this life (perhaps in the next I can go there :) )

 

[Saman]

Hi All,

I think the 'best' approach, or say perhaps the most practical approach, is to talk to the individual in question about the probable truths of this realm from likely smaller shocks and work you way up very gradually to likely bigger shocks. During this process, you can observe if the person is 'asking' or not with interest through their body language and various questions in order to better sense the 'flavor' of the situation. For example, you might start with "down to earth" subjects such as history, politics, earth changes, sciences, etc, before getting into the more 'shocking' hyperdimensional matters, and if the person does not seem interested at all with what is going on outside their everyday life, then perhaps they are not looking to find real Life but wish to remain in their own everyday 'bubble', and this is their own choice since determining what they need to know is a selfish intention, and not a STO course of action.

However, since the above is only a general guideline, I think sometimes the vice versa of the above suggestions is the appropriate course of action depending on the specific individual and their specific circumstances. For instance, if you already know that the individual is already into aliens and stuff, but they think that they are generally 'good' guys who have our best interest at heart and that they are going to come and save them from the darkness of this world, then perhaps starting the discussion from the hyperdimensional nature of the Universe is not such bad idea in regards to such individuals before gradually going down the list of information to more "down the earth" matters coinciding with the hyperdimensional reality, or so I think.

Regards,


Saman

 

[Ben]

Thanks for the replies, I generally agree with your practical approach to this. It is in fact the way I approach it, by starting small (usually with politics) and then offering more 'alternative' explanations. I think I need to be more patient with this approach, though, as I'm quite capable of attempting to recite all I have learned about a particular issue and risk alienating my 'audience'. I've always had a problem with being right, I'm one of those people who finds it very frustrating when I absolutely know I am right but cannot convince someone of this (to put it bluntly, 'I always have to be right'). Of course, what we are talking about here is far more complicated and we often cannot be sure that we are right. But what prompted me to start this topic in the first place is not so much the spiritual or 'cosmic' aspect of things but the things which are right in front of our faces and can be proven, if only people would look.

 

[Guest]

There is also another zone here that I encountered. There are some people who can goad you into metaphysical or otherwise controversial subjects in the hopes you will give them an easy and convenient anwser that will shut their mind for them so they don't have to think about that stuff any more. This can be true especially if people begin to respect your opinion in other matters.

A few years ago I had a friend and co-worker who helped me a lot, and we got along pretty well at work and in leisure time, with mutual respect. One night we were doing some late night drinking after everyone else in the group had gone home, and got to the subject of the Matrix movies (the second part was just coming out in theaters at the time).

He looked at me as if suddenly afraid and said that deep down he felt that we are manipulated and in a Matrix ourselves. Unfortunately, being a bit loose-lipped myself at the time I did not assess his state of mind correctly and also suffered from a need to express ideas on topics usually considered taboo among scientific researchers. So I said "OF COURSE WE'RE TRAPPED IN A MATRIX AND ITS WORSE THAN YOU THINK". He started shaking a bit, but quickly changed the subject.

From then on our relationship changed. He was defensive toward me, contradicted me at work where before he did not (even though I was technically higher up in the work ranks), was cold and in general looked at me as if I was some kind of an alien myself.

All in all there are things some people do not want to face even though they may bring up the subject themselves, so one has to be extra patient and extra careful in a territory that can be a veritable psychological mine-field.

 

[Ben]

Yes, this is also a good point. I can't really understand this fearful attitude, but it seems likely that matrix influences were counteracting this man's awakening, if only by reducing his receptivity to you. I have never met anyone who was genuinely scared by the ideas I was presenting, I try to avoid an approach that would provoke fear. As you said, you did not assess his state of mind correctly and so your approach may also have been a factor in his reaction.

 

[Guest]

Well, looking back with the wisdom of hindsight and all that followed, the only thing I should have said was that there was not matrix or that it was simply a projection of the psychological alienation of our times. His behaviour afterwards was to shut down all my beliefs because he knew they existed no matter how conventional and normal I was in life.

You see, in that environment there was nobody I could express even a hint of any esoteric beliefs, and when I did even once events spiralled into more than one person's reaction. That's what I was trying to say: sometimes you are baited to express yourself by a person used by other forces influencing them through their fears. When those forces identify you they keep prodding the person and others in proximity to consider you as a threat without there being an overt reason for it.

So you may find yourself in zones where there is nobody you can talk to, and other times the floodgates can open. It also depends on how "acceptable" your view is. Sometimes even "fringe" ideas are acceptable because they are circulated in mass culture enough to be at least familiar. I guess one has to be really aware of each and every situation, and to stay on the safe side to consider dissemination of the "truth" as secondary to living it. That is where things change around you without you even making a conscious effort in that direction.

 

[Realmhiker]

You see, in that environment there was nobody I could express even a hint of any esoteric beliefs, and when I did even once events spiralled into more than one person's reaction. That's what I was trying to say: sometimes you are baited to express yourself by a person used by other forces influencing them through their fears. When those forces identify you they keep prodding the person and others in proximity to consider you as a threat without there being an overt reason for it.

You are so right about this. I think the danger always is to find oneself in the position of being alienated and shone away by people sometimes we really care about. Another is to also sometimes become judgemental of them. It's easy sometimes to do this when one thinks one has tapped into something higher, and people around you don't. I am glad you bring this up. It's thought for more reflexion.

 

[anart]

I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread on a topic which I'm sure is a regular dilemma for anyone who has dedicated sufficient time, energy and objectivity to understand the vast amount of information available through Cassiopaea and SotT. This is, how to determine whether or not somebody you know is genuinely interested in finding out more and doing their own research when you introduce them to this information. That is to say, who is really asking for the truth? [...]

I have spent many hours with many people telling them everything I could about the answers I think I have, and I think I present a good case which prevents people from coming to conclusions such as: 'he's mad', 'I've heard this before', 'he is not thinking critically enough' etc. The vast majority of people have shown little interest in doing their own research and verifying what I have told them, though a few have been successfully 'converted' :D

But still, the situation on Earth looks worse than we all thought (in one sense, for those of us who were complete materialists it now looks wonderful beyond our comprehension). We want to respect the free will of our friends and family but we feel an obligation to tell them the truth, to give them the choice and mostly we don't want them manipulated, confused and basically, food. So there's my thoughts on this, what about you?

I find myself a bit concerned here with why anyone would want to 'convert' anyone else with this or any information. I'm not suggesting that you're evangelical or anything, but, ultimately this material, this Way, cannot be introduced to anyone, it must be searched for and found, or so it seems to me.

Why in the world would we be discussing the best way to present this material to others when we really should be focusing on understanding it completely ourselves. I do understand the most human of needs to be understood by those people in your life, but when it comes to esoteric work, especially the esoteric Work of which we often speak, I think you might find that not one other person in your normal life will understand or be interested in it. This has been my experience, at least. If you are asked about it, then the above mentioned ideas for introducing it may apply, but I find myself very leery of the whole idea of 'introducing' people to it. I could be completely misinterpreting this thread, and if so, I apologize fully, but if I'm not, what purpose are we serving in interfering with one other person's free will and learning? Please don't hesitate on 'setting me straight' if I've bungled this one. =)

 

[Beau]

I do understand the most human of needs to be understood by those people in your life, but when it comes to esoteric work, especially the esoteric Work of which we often speak, I think you might find that not one other person in your normal life will understand or be interested in it. This has been my experience, at least. If you are asked about it, then the above mentioned ideas for introducing it may apply, but I find myself very leery of the whole idea of 'introducing' people to it. I could be completely misinterpreting this thread, and if so, I apologize fully, but if I'm not, what purpose are we serving in interfering with one other person's free will and learning? Please don't hesitate on 'setting me straight' if I've bungled this one. =)

I don't think you've bungled it. The C's have said as much about projecting our own ideas onto others. The quote below is taken somewhat out of context but I'm hoping it can be applied to the above. The words I have bolded are what I think applies to this situation.

Q: (L) Is choice as intimately connected with the path as I am
understanding it? Is it just simply part of how you are
configured in your soul essence?
A: Close.
Q: (L) And there are people for whom STS is simply their
choice. It is their path.
A: Close.
Q: (L) So, it is a judgment and a disservice to try to convert
someone to your path, even if you perceive the end result of
the path they are on, that it leads to dissolution? It is still their
path?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) And, if you send 'buckets of love and light' to such a
one, and that is their path, you are violating their free will?
A: You might as well send "buckets" of vomit as that is how
they will react.
Q: (MM) Why send anything? Just be neutral?
A: Judgment is STS.

 

[Saman]

If you are asked about it, then the above mentioned ideas for introducing it may apply, but I find myself very leery of the whole idea of 'introducing' people to it. I could be completely misinterpreting this thread, and if so, I apologize fully, but if I'm not, what purpose are we serving in interfering with one other person's free will and learning? Please don't hesitate on 'setting me straight' if I've bungled this one. =) [Saman: bold for emphasis]

Hi Anart, All,

I think this is the context of this thread, or if not, this is what I assumed it was and my current suggestions above are based on this context; hence, I would agree with you wholeheartedly if no one had 'asked' about what we 'know', and in the process of learning to Understand, and we started to go around and try to 'wake' people up when they haven't asked, like some sort of "Jehovah witnesses", just for one example. Has you most probably agree on the following point, I think such intentions of determining the needs of others when they have not 'asked' would lead into a Free Will violation, and in some cases, the 'blind' leading the 'blind', so to speak.

In regards to the above thoughts, and to add upon what Beau as already stated, the C's have also said the following:

September 19, 1998
[...]
Q: How does it come that you are taking
energy from someone by giving them love
when not asked?
A: Because an STS vehicle does not learn to
be an STO candidate by determining the needs
of another.
Q: I don't understand how that means you are
taking energy?
A: Because the act is then one of
self-gratification. If one "gives" where there is
no request, therefore no need, this is a free
will violation! And besides, what other
motivation could there possibly be in such a
scenario?!? Think carefully and objectively
about this.
Q: My thought would be that, in such a
scenario, that if one gives love to someone
who has not asked or requested that it seems
to be a desire to change the other, i.e. a desire
to control.
A: You got it!!
[...]

Regards,



Saman

 

[knowledge_of_self]

Hi All:

There is a pretty interesting recent thread on Cass-chat regarding the subject of 'asking', and 'giving' knowledge when not 'asked' directly. The original post is # 23868 and it is called, "Does Knowledge Left Behind Violate Free Will?" I think some very good exchanges have been done on this subject, and it is worth a look.

But basically, some concern comes from the fact that sometimes people are 'asking' indirectly for knowledge, because most of the time people do not know how to 'ask'. This subject was also perused on Cass-chat a while back, while discussing hypothetical situations that may or may not be considered as situations of 'asking'.
The posts are:

Post # 23415 titled, "STO Help"
And post # 23548 titled, "STO path and free will"

That's what I was trying to say: sometimes you are baited to express yourself by a person used by other forces influencing them through their fears.

EsoQuest, in the above quote, you have very briefly described the act that my mother does to me all the time. She "baits" me with subjects that are presented to her, that she sees as 'immoral' or 'unjust', and 'asks' me about it. When I tell her some of my ideas she sometimes embraces it at the moment… sort of like for the sake of conversation, and in the next moment she either 'forgets', or she completely misinterprets the given point to her own benefit. Sort of like, she knows what I tell her is 'right', but that would mean that many things in her life are 'wrong' like what she is being told by politicians for example. And that induces extreme fear.

I have to admit that I have often thought about what the C's say regarding OPs and the subject of 'waking them up', in regards to my mother.

Q: Based on what Mouravieff has said, it seems to be so that any efforts to try to raise the consciousness of such individuals is doomed to fail.
A: Pretty much. Most of them are very efficient machines. The ones that you have identified as psychopaths are "failures." The best ones cannot be discerned except by long and careful observation.

But, I KNOW that we are not supposed to point fingers and play "spot the OP". It is just that she being my mother, and in my path to interact with more than others, I have come cross these situations of her 'asking' many times and of course to no avail. It has just given me something to lean on that it 'could' possibly be that my interaction is with someone of this 'archetype' and not MY mother. What I am trying to say, is that thinking about introducing people to ideas of esotericism is VERY complicated, especially when you begin to consider the 50 % of the population being OPs.

Just some thoughts,
Nina

 

[Justin]

At this point I can't imagine trying to explain most of these ideas to someone, even if they asked, simply because I don't feel that I have a competent-enough understanding of the material to be able to communicate it in a way that would make much sense to people. I would have to refer them to certain reading materials instead. If they already understood some of the concepts and were asking about my thoughts on them, it would be no problem.

 

[Saman]

She "baits" me with subjects that are presented to her, that she sees as 'immoral' or 'unjust', and 'asks' me about it. When I tell her some of my ideas she sometimes embraces it at the moment… sort of like for the sake of conversation, and in the next moment she either 'forgets', or she completely misinterprets the given point to her own benefit. Sort of like, she knows what I tell her is 'right', but that would mean that many things in her life are 'wrong' like what she is being told by politicians for example. And that induces extreme fear.

It is just that she being my mother, and in my path to interact with more than others, I have come cross these situations of her 'asking' many times and of course to no avail.

Just some thoughts,
Nina

Hi Nina, All,

If you don't mind sharing the personal answers to the following questions, I have two questions I would like to ask you:

1) How often do you see your mother on average in a month?
2) How often do you talk with her on average in a month?

I'm just asking these questions because you have brought up the issue with your mother several times on Casschat, and we have talked about it as well 'long' ago in the 'past', and hence, perhaps I can share some thoughts that may be helpful to you, and others who might have a similar situation, that is, if you wish...




Saman