Why are you single?

[shijing]

Many of the books on my shelf were stepping stones. Concepts I have moved beyond and have outgrown. Many of the books are books I re-read every few years or that I refer back to for quotes or research or even just randomly, because they are full of so much great info. They are, strangely a comfort to me to have around. But if I had to pack one suitcase and run for it, I know exactly which books I would grab, and they are not necessarily the one's that someone else would look at and say, "Wow... she must be really smart and interesting."

This paragraph resonated with me in particular -- especially the part about the books being a comfort to have around. Kind of like stuffed animals with a purpose :) Maybe that explains why I like to work in bookstores so much...

 

[Lauranimal]

This paragraph resonated with me in particular -- especially the part about the books being a comfort to have around. Kind of like stuffed animals with a purpose Smiley Maybe that explains why I like to work in bookstores so much..

LOL! Not sure I could fall asleep without at least 2 or 3 books on my nightstand.

 

[Laura]

Hi Menna,

A bit of mirroring, raw, may you take it as it was intended.

eliansito, if you were qualified to deliver a "mirror" on this forum you would have been asked to be a moderator. Mirrors are given only after some discussion among moderators. It is not your place to do it. If you think you are qualified to teach, I'm sorry that I do not agree and it is, after all, my call in the end.

 

[eliansito]

RyanX and Bud,

About the pic by your reply I can see I didn't express myself properly. I am not requesting menna changes his pic out of external consideration nor suggesting it is inappropriate. What I am saying is that if he had understood the point, he himself would not feel the need to have that profile pic because it he wouldnt be identified with that program of his anymore.

I think you might be jumping to some conclusions here. The first jump is that Menna's avatar is evidence of identification. It is not. It may be indicative of such, but it is not evidence. The second jump is the idea that a deep understanding on his part of any identification with his body building would necessitate the removal of the avatar - that's not necessarily so, especially if the avatar then serves as a helpful reminder of identification.

Not a necessity of course, rather a probability and my jumps are not based on the pic alone but on his own words explaining its purpose.

It would be a shame that he removed it because anyone told him to, and I am certainly not telling him so. Once he has reached the understanding it really matters little whether he removes it or not, but before he reaches it, the pic shows just that fact.

This is a bit of an assumption, actually - and, again, 'leading' Menna by saying that if he only reached this understanding, then it would be obvious. That's not necessarily the case.

Not necessarily indeed and as I said, were he not identified with what the pic represents it would matter little if he removed it or not.

My intention was to clear the fog and make Menna face his program for what it is.

Why is it your place to 'make' anyone face any program?

It is not my place it seems and as Laura says I am not a moderator nor qualified to deliver a mirror, I thought any member could mirror other members to the best of his abilities and of course with the best of intentions in mind.
My apologies to Menna and to the others for doing something only moderators are supposed to do.

Whether that is triggered by my own programs it might well be the case, at this point I am not aware that it is so.

Perhaps it might be worth exploring?

Perhaps.

The requirement I had in mind is that Menna reached an instance of radical honesty instead of letting rationalizations reign.

Could that be applied to you with regards to your response to RyanX?

I don't see how, please clarify where my reply to RyanX lacks honesty.

Also, how are you to know whether or not Menna reached an 'instance of radical honesty'?

By reading his posts in this thread, the feedback he receives and his reactions to the feedback he has received in this thread.

I am also be interested to know more about how that would not be proper objective mirroring, and I for one would apologize if that was the case.

Thanks
R

See above - hopefully that helps.

It has, I shall refrain from attempting to mirror and work towards objectivity. Thank you.

R

 

[Buddy]

Fwiw, I think the concept of mirrors is commonly misunderstood and would like to offer my understanding for correction and in case it helps someone.

Objective mirrors are consciously and deliberately set up with a specific purpose in mind in the QFG and, in milder contexts, here on the forum by those qualified to do so. Reason being, if the mirror is effective, a part of the false personality is burned away and the receiver is relieved from having to deal with that again (I think). Here on the public forum, objective mirrors are milder because of the possibility of psychological damage in a person of unknown make-up and there are limited means of stabilizing an individual should something go wrong. Another reason for the mirroring person to be judged as qualified. (is this correct?)

All other mirrors are more naturally occurring and with less potential of permanently damaging the psyche.
Life is a mirror that reflects who we are.
People can offer direct mirrors: "I see you as retarded; I think you're an idiot", etc.

People can consciously and unconsciously offer indirect mirrors. Ex:

The first person mirror, where someone would mention some fault they have that's causing them some difficulties, and by the resonant effect, I would see the same fault in myself.

The 'talking to the wall so the door can hear' mirror, where man A talks to man B or to a general audience for the purpose of man C hearing it.

There's the most common mirrors from people where they are just sharing what they think or how something looks to them or pointing out an unrecognized fact and it winds up being a beneficial mirror.

Mirrors are everywhere. Each of us are capable of seeing our various reflections in so many ways, from so many sources, that it is unnecessary and inappropriate to call direct attention to it before-the-fact. If a person is really wanting to learn, mirrors will be unavoidable, just from having awareness of all the available feedback mechanisms.

fwiw.

 

[Windmill knight]

Fwiw, I think the concept of mirrors is commonly misunderstood and would like to offer my understanding for correction and in case it helps someone.

Objective mirrors are consciously and deliberately set up with a specific purpose in mind in the QFG and, in milder contexts, here on the forum by those qualified to do so. Reason being, if the mirror is effective, a part of the false personality is burned away and the receiver is relieved from having to deal with that again (I think). Here on the public forum, objective mirrors are milder because of the possibility of psychological damage in a person of unknown make-up and there are limited means of stabilizing an individual should something go wrong. Another reason for the mirroring person to be judged as qualified. (is this correct?)

All other mirrors are more naturally occurring and with less potential of permanently damaging the psyche.
Life is a mirror that reflects who we are.
People can offer direct mirrors: "I see you as retarded; I think you're an idiot", etc.

I don't think that last example is a mirror, but an attack. A mirror is done for the purpose of helping another, and as such is done with external consideration. External consideration, however, does not mean 'to be nice'. It means adapting yourself to what the other needs. It may be the case that someone needs a shock to wake up, so a mirror without sugar coating may apply. But it is still meant to help the other.

But in order to help someone, I think one should understand their situation as best as possible (who they are, what they are going through, what they feel and how they are likely to react; what they need at that moment, etc), and understand yourself too! You don't want to go attacking, showing off or projecting on people under the cover of a 'mirror'. Which is why in order to provide a mirror it helps a lot to have been under the receiving end of a serious one. As Father Sylvan (from Lost Christianity) says:

Everything, absolutely everything about the Teaching must be experienced in ourselves and assimilated in our own being before we attempt to guide others.

Networking is also essential, which is what moderators do a lot.

Also, I'm not sure that "permanently damaging the psyche" is the correct way of putting the risk of a mirror for someone who cannot take it. An objective mirror would only hurt the false personality or predator, which is based on illusions anyway. Perhaps the risk is that some people may have such a strong predator or so little of a seed of conscience that they will fully identify with the pain and will never see that something needs to change in themselves? So they will reject the Work and lose their chances of understanding some day. If they have nothing but a false personality, then perhaps in that sense it is true that their "psyche has been damaged".

That's how I see it at the moment, anyway.

 

[Buddy]

I don't think that last example is a mirror, but an attack.

I agree. Not a mirror in any objective, beneficial sense, rather the kind of thing mechanical man faces in life from other mechanical men. I was thinking of it as a kind of mirror (not objective) that is used as attack because it plays on the doubts, fears and insecurities of the one being attacked. Perhaps that should be limited to the attack context, though because I imagine that few, if any, people could actually allow themselves to benefit even from an attack.

Perhaps the risk is that some people may have such a strong predator or so little of a seed of conscience that they will fully identify with the pain and will never see that something needs to change in themselves? So they will reject the Work and lose their chances of understanding some day. If they have nothing but a false personality, then perhaps in that sense it is true that their "psyche has been damaged".

Yes, that is what I meant. Thanks for your input and clarification. :)

 

[Breton]

Perhaps this is an appropriate time to mention of a posting by Black Swan about the "Quaker process of a Clearness Committee" some time ago, which is basically about mirroring. The link referred to by Black Swan was at

http://www.couragerenewal.org/parker/writings/clearness-committee

When I read this, I just thought this was kind of a useful handbook on effective mirroring to help a "focus person" (the person seeking clearness) work out the answers themselves. Or so it seems.

 

[Lauranimal]

Quote from Breton

Perhaps this is an appropriate time to mention of a posting by Black Swan about the "Quaker process of a Clearness Committee" some time ago, which is basically about mirroring. The link referred to by Black Swan was at

http://www.couragerenewal.org/parker/writings/clearness-committee

When I read this, I just thought this was kind of a useful handbook on effective mirroring to help a "focus person" (the person seeking clearness) work out the answers themselves. Or so it seems.

Thank you so much for posting that. Brilliant. And clear.

 

[Buddy]

Perhaps this is an appropriate time to mention of a posting by Black Swan about the "Quaker process of a Clearness Committee" some time ago, which is basically about mirroring. The link referred to by Black Swan was at

http://www.couragerenewal.org/parker/writings/clearness-committee

When I read this, I just thought this was kind of a useful handbook on effective mirroring to help a "focus person" (the person seeking clearness) work out the answers themselves. Or so it seems.

Very interesting Breton. Thanks for posting this. :)

 

[eliansito]

In the light of the feedback received and specially the Quakers article I would like to reiterate my sincerest apologies to Menna for my attempt at mirroring in such a manner :(.

I have been reminded of a lesson that I have learn but so often forget, which is that everytime we try to give someone a lesson we end up receiving one, if we are willing to take it that is.

I am willing, don't give up on me!

Thanks all.

R

 

[RyanX]

Perhaps this is an appropriate time to mention of a posting by Black Swan about the "Quaker process of a Clearness Committee" some time ago, which is basically about mirroring. The link referred to by Black Swan was at

http://www.couragerenewal.org/parker/writings/clearness-committee

Thanks for posting this Breton. I remember reading back in the other thread by Black Swan. It was really helpful for me to see how the asking of questions and allowing the individual to ponder those in their own way, helping them reach for the answers within, is a valuable part of the mirroring process.

 

[anart]

In the light of the feedback received and specially the Quakers article I would like to reiterate my sincerest apologies to Menna for my attempt at mirroring in such a manner :(.

I have been reminded of a lesson that I have learn but so often forget, which is that everytime we try to give someone a lesson we end up receiving one, if we are willing to take it that is.

I am willing, don't give up on me!

Thanks all.

R

Until you give up on your Real self, we will not give up on you (and even then, we'll still hold out hope).

 

[mada85]

Perhaps this is an appropriate time to mention of a posting by Black Swan about the "Quaker process of a Clearness Committee" some time ago, which is basically about mirroring. The link referred to by Black Swan was at

http://www.couragerenewal.org/parker/writings/clearness-committee

When I read this, I just thought this was kind of a useful handbook on effective mirroring to help a "focus person" (the person seeking clearness) work out the answers themselves. Or so it seems.

Breton, thank you so much for posting this link. I had not read the article before, but reading it gives me a new perspective on work in this forum. The article clarifies a yearning for a process which has been somewhere in the back of my mind in a very undeveloped form, not to mention that I've never found the people (apart from here on the forum) with whom I would like to participate in such a process.

 

[durabone]

[quote author=Breton]Perhaps this is an appropriate time to mention of a posting by Black Swan about the "Quaker process of a Clearness Committee" some time ago, which is basically about mirroring. The link referred to by Black Swan was at

http://www.couragerenewal.org/parker/writings/clearness-committee

When I read this, I just thought this was kind of a useful handbook on effective mirroring to help a "focus person" (the person seeking clearness) work out the answers themselves. Or so it seems.[/quote]

I also offer my thanks Breton. That took awhile to sink in, an actual tool for use in non-hierarchical social structures! It might be a possible significant addition to the traditional 12-step process. I say this because the feeling I got of the Clearness Committee reminds me of Al-anon, an organization that deals with the family of the alcoholic, and therefore can be argued to involve more of a question/answer format than typical AA/NA meetings.