Why are you single?

[Nathancat7]

Hi Menna--this is a redo as my session timed out so I'll keep it short. I don't think anyone mentioned but if so I'm sorry. I think you have a very strong mind, mental orientation. I think what is happening is that you are using your sexual energy in the proper way. I think that you have in the past sublimated (used it incorrectly) your sexual energy in your mental center because it is much easier to think when not having to think about sex. That is a crude way to put it but I notice a certain idealism in your sculpting. The root cause of this could be be in the mental center feeling alienated around more physical people and not wanting to get involved with them. I mean it would be convenient to say that in the past you may have been sublimating sexual energy in the physical center.
Please don't take offense at this post. I don't mean it that way. I sublimated sexual energy in the emotional center to the degree that it should be renamed the N for .... And at its root was and still is anger and its attendant fear rooted in childhood. Sorry I can't elaborate on this more and do it justice without sounding flippant but its time constraints-- and I hope it hasn't been mentioned before. At any rate, I can elaborate on this later.

 

[Nienna]

Is there also a book like ‘How to Spot a Dangerous Woman Before You Get Involved’? This would be also very helpfull for the cases, where it's the other way around :)

How to Spot a Dangerous Man can be used by men by just changing the gender of who is being talked about. It goes both ways, and Sandra Brown even states this in her book. :) So men can read this book and apply it to themselves just as women can.

 

[Faith]

...It goes both ways, and Sandra Brown even states this in her book. :) ...

That's even more interesting. I can't wait reading all this. If the phenomenon is basically kind of genderless, does this implies that the evil magician, who hypnotized his sheep, is genderless as well? However, I am just curious. I didn't mean to open a new can of worms here. That would be kind of hasty, wouldn't it? One step at a time :P I am going to broaden my mind first.

 

[Menna]

NathanCat7 - There is SOME truth to what you are saying and I can relate. I first started working out not because I was intimidated physically by bigger people but because I felt alienated from the normal social interaction, especially around girls - I wasn't confident in myself so because of that I started working out and tried to better myself physically. Through this process I have learned a lot about myself and grown. Ive been reading ISOM and can relate to the Fakir who endures physical pain and creates a struggle within him not giving into his wants or desires and because of this he is lead to a path of progress and immortality. I am by no means immortal but through physical exercise and the mental restricting (The Yogie) and not giving into the social norms I feel like I have grown myself. I felt that I wasn't "ready" socially when I was younger and So Yes my energy is targeted towards working out but I feel that it has lead me on a decent path spiritually. Also I enjoy knowing that I am changing/improving my body everyday - that not one day is wasted without improvement.

 

[anart]

I first started working out not because I was intimidated physically by bigger people but because I felt alienated from the normal social interaction, especially around girls - I wasn't confident in myself so because of that I started working out and tried to better myself physically.

Hi Menna, I'm wondering if you realize that the basic premise behind your thinking here is that the motivating factor of attracting girls is physicality. You focused on developing your physical appearance to be comfortable around girls. This means you believe, on some level, that girls are solely, or mostly, motivated by physical appearance. This, of course, leads to attracting girls who would be motivated by such. In my experience, people who are motivated by physical appearance do not make good partners. Basically, you bought into the idea that how you appear is the most important factor - NOT who you are - and I can only imagine how difficult it is to find a colinear partner by 'flying the flags' you've been flying - those of the focus on the physical.

Through this process I have learned a lot about myself and grown.

You keep repeating that which makes me wonder if you're saying it as justification, instead of because it is objectively true.

Ive been reading ISOM and can relate to the Fakir who endures physical pain and creates a struggle within him not giving into his wants or desires and because of this he is lead to a path of progress and immortality. I am by no means immortal but through physical exercise and the mental restricting (The Yogie) and not giving into the social norms I feel like I have grown myself.

You may have missed the point that the fakir only develops one center, thus, in that singular lifetime, he is unbalanced.

I felt that I wasn't "ready" socially when I was younger and So Yes my energy is targeted towards working out but I feel that it has lead me on a decent path spiritually. Also I enjoy knowing that I am changing/improving my body everyday - that not one day is wasted without improvement.

Improvement on your physical being, which will decay and rot when you die. Then, where will you be? You are quite identified with your body, Menna and your body is no more permanent than the wind.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Ive been reading ISOM and can relate to the Fakir who endures physical pain and creates a struggle within him not giving into his wants or desires and because of this he is lead to a path of progress and immortality. I am by no means immortal but through physical exercise and the mental restricting (The Yogie) and not giving into the social norms I feel like I have grown myself. I felt that I wasn't "ready" socially when I was younger and So Yes my energy is targeted towards working out but I feel that it has lead me on a decent path spiritually. Also I enjoy knowing that I am changing/improving my body everyday - that not one day is wasted without improvement.

I agree with Anart. Menna, you really are focused on your body. The biggest "change/improvement" you should be striving for is to follow the detox protocols (if you aren't doing it already). Even though you stated that you first began to work on your body to attract girls but it led you to a more spiritual path, do you think you may still be doing a bit of rationalization in that regard? I do think it's a shame that so much of society teaches us that our worth depends on our outside appearance.

Also, as Anart mentioned, the Fakir and Yogie (and the Fool) are all given as examples of how each path is somewhat lacking, only focused on one aspect/center (your body?). It is the "4th Way" that Gurdjieff is really emphasizing, a balance.

In the end, it all boils down to what's been said here before. You (or any of us) are not your body.

 

[bjorb]

- Hey Menna

I don’t know if this can help, you may think some of it is unrelated. But I hope it can add to the realization what the impact of physical appearance means and does, on this world and you:

Did you ever watched around you? The amount of advertisements which bombards you? – And the majority of those which are composed of ‘attractive’ people which are glorifying the product.

You may think it’s sad. But the most disturbing thing is: it actually works!

There is such an obsession with physical appearance. A wide arrange of judgment of assumptions how people are or even deserve to act, just because of the way how they look.

So why do those kind of advertisements works?

Because people identify themselves with the person on the advertisement. Those can be all kind of subjectivity.
But mainly – And at mine impression: It’s the belief that being ‘attractive’ gives some-kind of ‘freedom’. Telling people what they deserve how they may act, what they may do and not. What there worth is and what is in there reach.

And if they buy that product, promoted by advertisements composed of ‘attractive’ people – they may experience a bit of this ‘freedom’

I don’t know if you ever noticed - But the clear message marketers spread around the globe. This consumer system: is that we should never be happy on the way we look, with ourselves. That we must suffer. And our only reach of salvation is to grasp which they have set to glorify.

To show just another angle of this soulless and disturbing aspect:

- Ever wondered why for the most part only ‘attractive’ people broadcast the news?

Why do people experience a difference in there state of receiving messages just on the way people look?

If the message is the same? Why the difference?

Is it this ‘freedom’ on which we judge others and ourselves?

Do we by believing ‘attractive’ people think that we can possess that aspect of them?


[quote author=Anart]This means you believe, on some level, that girls are solely, or mostly, motivated by physical appearance. This, of course, leads to attracting girls who would be motivated by such. In my experience, people who are motivated by physical appearance do not make good partners.[/quote]

Those girls can smile at you. But in reality they only smile to there own Ego. Because they just added a piece of you which they can attribute to there own self-importance - to themselves. There smile has nothing to do with you.

 

[Aiming]

Those girls can smile at you. But in reality they only smile to there own Ego. Because they just added a piece of you which they can attribute to there own self-importance - to themselves. There smile has nothing to do with you.

Bjorn is spot-on here, Menna. Have you ever thought about that?

You might have all the right 'spiritual' explanations for your work on the body, but what lies behind those to you beautifully sounding words?

When you bring to your mind again your initial motives of starting to work out at all:

I first started working out not because I was intimidated physically by bigger people but because I felt alienated from the normal social interaction, especially around girls - I wasn't confident in myself so because of that I started working out and tried to better myself physically.

Okay, we have a program there. It's probably a lack of self-worth. So you start working out. And you start feeling better. This way one could think one has tricked the program into non-existence. But in actuality, what one has done is overlaying the program with another program: I'm working out so I don't have to constantly feel the fear of being not worth/not lovable.
Because of overlaying the program of not feeling lovable, one is under the constant control of the overlaying program of working out. Now you must work out. Because you've found a method not to feel the hurtful messages of the introject. And maybe, in order not to feel slave of the new program, and when over time your interest in the spiritual began to show itself, you've created beautiful explanations for it: the spiritual, learning and growth. Thereby deluding yourself about what is actually going on.

Maybe food for thought, maybe totally off.

 

[Iron]

As another who threaded in this culture of bodybuilding, I saw other programs in me that limited my worldview.
Maybe you Menna carry on the same programs or similar.

They were - "Us versus Them" mentality. Like secretely whispering to yourself that you are somehow better off, or superior, that those people that dont workout as hard as you, or those "fatasses" .

- Obssessive-compulsiveness about minutia - spending inordinate amounts of the day, thinking, planning, worrying, about bodybuilding aspects like : "where I shall eat today?, have I ate enough protein for the day? , Gotta buy food, or I shall lose all my gains!, I think I should add/subtract another set/rep/exercise. " And worries of this sort. Unchecked, you can easily pass all day thinking by association of aspects of bodybuilding, and simply be "away of your mind".

I am in process of struggling against those thought patterns, but only after I stopped identifying with bodybuilding, that I got a fair chance of trying to.

You say to yourself, that you got presence of mind, discipline and willpower. But what use those caractheristics have if they can only be used in the gym context?

Also the points that other people made, especially Anart and Bjorn are very powerfull.
Ponder them with care.
No one is asking you to stop going to the gym, just to take a step back and assess if you are overly identified with the "I, bodybuilder".

My experience may or not , be usefull to you.
In either case, Be well !

 

[Buddy]

Those girls can smile at you. But in reality they only smile to there own Ego. Because they just added a piece of you which they can attribute to there own self-importance - to themselves. There smile has nothing to do with you.

Very well put. :)

 

[Faith]

I deleted this post. :P I tried to give an overview of the identification-issue, thought it might help, but it's not working. It's my old lecturing-routine. I am not ready to give an advise. But it was worth a try. I finally got more questions, Yippee!




EDIT: ...modified it -- for the better, I hope. :P

 

[Faith]

I seem to be stuck with the concept of Darwinism: The way how I understand it, it's the basic principle of an STS-enviroment. But there are two variations of it: The violent short-wave- or short-term-thinking Darwinism, that is more STS-oriented vs. the rather peacefull long-wave- or long-term-thinking Darwinism, that is more STO-oriented. But BOTH have to fight their way through the Third-Density-Jungle. That's why it seems hard to be external considering, because in an STS-enviroment you can't trust anyone, at least not intellectually considering. Even a person who is badly identified with being STO -- turns it to STS. The STO-Crusader (the word itself is absurd) would be a perfect Predator, even a small one. I watched one part in me, who seems to be pretty confident, who feels save here in the forum. The other one, I guess it's the intellectual one, is paranoid and full of doubts. It seems that the one feels for sure what the other one simply can't understand. When I try to combine these two I get a word salad, that sounds like bad poetry. That is quite a challenge, isn't it? :/

 

[anart]

I seem to be stuck with the concept of Darwinism: The way how I understand it, it's the basic principle of an STS-enviroment. But there are two variations of it: The violent short-wave- or short-term-thinking Darwinism, that is more STS-oriented vs. the rather peacefull long-wave- or long-term-thinking Darwinism, that is more STO-oriented. But BOTH have to fight their way through the Third-Density-Jungle. That's why it seems hard to be external considering, because in an STS-enviroment you can't trust anyone, at least not intellectually considering. Even a person who is badly identified with being STO -- turns it to STS. The STO-Crusader (the word itself is absurd) would be a perfect Predator, even a small one. I watched one part in me, who seems to be pretty confident, who feels save here in the forum. The other one, I guess it's the intellectual one, is paranoid and full of doubts. It seems that the one feels for sure what the other one simply can't understand. When I try to combine these two I get a word salad, that sounds like bad poetry. That is quite a challenge, isn't it? :/

It is quite a challenge. As Madam de Salzmann wrote:

"You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

So, 'combining these two' might not be the way to go. If you've not read the First Initiation in a while, I recommend it. In fact, I recommend that everyone read it on a regular basis to remind oneself of what they are up against - I re-read it regularly.

 

[Menna]

Just want to make two things clear...

1) When I said I didn't feel comfortable in groups of people - more so around girls and because of this I turned to the gym. I turned to the gym because I had low confidence in myself and didn’t feel adequate. My intent was to improve my confidence not to attract the opposite sex with my body as I know relationships based on the physical usually don't last.

2) I am well aware that the fakir is 1/3 of the path to immortality and that ISOTM the 4th way is the best path all I was saying is that I can relate to the fakir through depriving self and the inner struggle I know this isn't the way to go and that the 4th way is better then the other three ways.

Other than that I know I identify with my body and need to work on that - that’s part of the reason why im here to learn and this thread has been helpful.

 

[Pierre]

1) When I said I didn't feel comfortable in groups of people - more so around girls and because of this I turned to the gym. I turned to the gym because I had low confidence in myself and didn’t feel adequate. My intent was to improve my confidence not to attract the opposite sex with my body as I know relationships based on the physical usually don't last.

Hi Menna,

I can relate to your path in many aspects. Let me share my personal experience so, maybe, you will find some connexions.

During my twenties, I was pushing weight 3 or 4 times a weeks, it lasted about 10 years. Meanwhile, I was playing rugby intensively and I was telling myself I was pushing weights just to gain strength and be a better rugby player.

I was also owning sport cars, wearing fancy clothes and a Breitling watch (a replica actually since original ones were very expensive). I was using self tanning cream, shaving my back and my torso, studying engineerring in a prestigious school and even did a MBA overseas. Despite this external "positive" attributes I had developed a lying habit, if I got a A at school I would say I got a A+, if my car was 180HP I would say it was 200HP. As if whatever I would achieve was never enough.

So, I had pretty much all the external attribute of success. However during this whole time I didn't really feel good. There was a kind of emotional emptiness, unease, depression. It's like something was missing.

Like you, I didn't feel good around people, I felt uninteresting, unnatural, jealous (though I didn't really acknowledge those emotions at the time). As soon as a friendship or romantic relationship was becoming too intense, I felt like intruded, threatened. It was almost like a rape.

When I look back at those dynamics they seem quite clear and simple though at the time I would have sworn that all those later realizations were total nonsense.

So why did I follow this path and develop this kind of personae? There might be at least two factors involved. First I wanted desperately my father to love me. So I developed the attribute that he admired: physical performance, material success and intellectual achievement. Unfortunately, whatever success I would reach it would never be enough for him to look at me.

The second factor is that I was so unconfident, I felt so worthless, so empty inside that I hypercompensated by developing a positive external appearance. No internal objective being led to external subjective appearances. So I was no happy or successful but at least I looked like I was.

Few years later, I had a CEO position, was making a lot of money, lived in a villa on the seashore in the French riviera, was married to a beautiful woman, had an even bigger sport car, did even more extreme sport performance and I felt emptier and worse than ever. I had become really neurotic and antisocial and developed drug addiction.

So I had to go this far on this illusory path, suffer this much, to finally start considering that it might not be the better approach and asking myself how was my childhood in reality, who I really was, who I really wanted to be. :/