Why does it have to be this way?

[luke wilson]

I have just finally recognised 'one' of those deeply ingrained assumptions that has almost gone into 'unquestionable' territory because that is just how everything has been and is.

The thing is that most people, including me, live our lives on the 'paradigm' of 'wanting' things or maintaining what we already have. For those wanting things, it is either, material stuff, or immaterial stuff like to be happy, to be more open, etc and those wanting to maintain the status quo, it is because of the fear of them losing what they already have will lead them down into the abyss. I mean, life all of a sudden seems to be all about, 'acquiring' wants, whatever they may be.

I know, G. says that we are incapable of doing anything and anything that happens to us, just happens, but still all the little I's despite there constant changing nature, are always after something. One I wants, praise, another wants a better house, another a better car, another a better lover, another better health for the body etc. Then if we fuse all the I's together, do we just end up with one big I that is still a slave to 'want.' I want this, I want that, I am not satisfied, this is not right, it should be this way, it should be that way, I want it to be this or that way. Omg, our I's are little pre-madonnas.... I want people to be this way, I want people to be that way. I want the world to be this or that etc. I dont want this, I want that, I want to help other people, I want to help myself and it just continues forever. It seems to be the 1 constant that follows us through life. I even dare say it, I want to be master of my machine. Our endless stream of wants... Is there a difference between wanting something and knowing why you want it compared to just wanting something blindly e.g. because of external influences? Surely it all amounts to one thing? The logic I suppose, is accumulation of wants equals to gain and conscious accumulation of wants equals to conscious gain which then can be put to conscious use, but to me, it still seems like moving onto the world from the wrong perspective, the perspective of conquerors..

Look at how we live life, we live life as conquerors, we conquer everything, we conquer other people, we conquer the planet, we conquer our children, our loved ones etc, we even dare to try and conquer ourselves, whatever that means, like in some twisted logic, by overcoming ourselves, we will be better, we will be free. I mean, let us start from scratch, 'freedom' is an unknown thing, no one has ever seen it, no one knows what it is, 'freedom' for us is something defined within the limits of our environment, so by saying, I want to master myself so I can be free, what type of freedom is being talked about? Ok, freedom from programs and external influences, but if you gain that freedom what do you do? You already assume you'll know what to do, as if winning freedom will all of a sudden illuminate the whole path, in my opinion, you'll be free only to realise it counts for nothing, I suppose your new aim will be, now that I am free, I want to [add whatever you desire]. To me it appears, being 'free' of programs, traumas, illusion is equivalent of being 'free' of the universe. if everything reflects everything else, then the matrix is just a 'miniature' version of the universe. HOW DO YOU BECOME FREE OF THE UNIVERSE? Absolutely mind boggling... ok! How do you become free of the matrix? Those 3000 or so people that managed to achieve this rather mind boggling stuff, if I ever meet one of them, I will make sure to ask them how they first of all defined what the matrix is and how did they proceed to get out... What clever piece of trickery did they use. It is almost like trying to figure out how the clever bank robber done it... One theory I have, is the bank robber for one didnt walk into the bank and walk out the bank with the money... That is impossible, not with the kind of security employed. He must have done something else more devious.

On the subject of living life guided by 'our wants' is there another way apart from this? This is an insidious program IMHO. I mean thinking that acquiring a 'special' kind of 'want' the 'holy grail' of all wants will lead to victory, then uhmm, hmm. It seems this kind of victory will be the mother of all traps and from what i've heard of those 4D STS people or just 'STS' nature in itself, I wouldnt put this beyond them or the sheer force of 'STS' energy... If this is a 'game' then there is a trap in here somewhere and the fact that no one is talking about the trap is worrying. It is like, oh look, '4th way' walk that road and it'll lead you straight out. It might be abit rugged, abit narrow, it might be a tough walk but eventually you'll get out. :O :O :O Yah! Imagine I am 4D STS or just STS energy in general and I know there is supposedly a 'way' out of me.. What will I do? For one, I will invent another road that looks almost exactly like it and obscure the original road as much as I possibly can. That seems like a clever thing to do... I mean, all the talk about this road is 'hearsay' so it is a very high probability, that if it looks like it, feels like it, rings true with all our centres as much as possible, chances are it must be it and the little anomolies are just our 'imperfections' or distortions which are sure to be corrected in due time. Furthermore, without the 'right' questions, the Cs wont utter even a single word, that oh, by the way, we forgot to mention that, uhmm, you're doomed. Free will can be cruel like that sometimes... Think red indians.

 

[axj]

I think that we need to distinguish between 'wanting something' and 'needing something'.

The most simple example: our physical bodies have needs in order to survive. Then we also have needs on other levels: emotional needs, mental needs and I think even our Higher Self has something that can be called needs. We can and need to fulfill these authentic needs - they are real and not programs.

What our Higher Self needs us to do can be sensed or 'felt' as your deepest desires, though it goes much deeper than the emotional. It is like a knowing on a different level than mental or emotional, the silent knowledge Don Juan talks about.

 

[luke wilson]

I think that we need to distinguish between 'wanting something' and 'needing something'.

The most simple example: our physical bodies have needs in order to survive. Then we also have needs on other levels: emotional needs, mental needs and I think even our Higher Self has something that can be called needs. We can and need to fulfill these authentic needs - they are real and not programs.

What our Higher Self needs us to do can be sensed or 'felt' as your deepest desires, though it goes much deeper than the emotional. It is like a knowing on a different level than mental or emotional, the silent knowledge Don Juan talks about.

Thanks for this:

Ok distinguishing between a 'want' and a 'need' is paramount.

Ok, lets say, through the random accidents that occur in life, I end up with a £15000 a year paying job, a bad car, in a not to fulfilling relationship etc. So, if I want a better house, a better car, a better relationship... what is this? Take that and apply to character.

I take it a need is the bear minimum to keep us 'alive.' For now, I am not taking emotions or mental needs into account because for the most part that is subjective and everyone is different - some people like to be loved for who they are, some people prefer a challenge, some people just want to be. Neither the higher self because I dont really know how it functions. But despite achieving the bear minimum to keep the physical body alive, dont you agree we are still driven by more wants, bigger wants, more refined wants, like I want to be a better person, a better parent, a better friend etc? My point is that life, is driven, at the bottom, by 'want.' I am asking if there is any other way?

Even if let us say, you are emotionally happy and intellectually satisfied and you are well off economically. You still might want, a better lamp shade, might want your partner to kiss you more, might want your child to eat less sugar, might want society to be fair, might want less immigrants, might want republicans in power campared to democrats.. or maybe a house with a better view from the office window. The point is, that regardless of where you are, in this life, you are still driven by these 'wants.'

EDIT: A need is just a special type of want. So you are saying that life should just be about fulfilling our needs? What happens when you fulfill them? Does life stop? Isnt these the problem faced by billionares or the super-rich? Taking there example, I suppose you buy a super-yacht or maybe build a seed bank, look into population control etc, maybe you are more benevolent, maybe look into getting rid of world poverty....

 

[axj]

I take it a need is the bear minimum to keep us 'alive.'

A need is more than survival. Fulfilling needs - mental, emotional, physical, spiritual - means a fulfilling life.

I think it might help to look at some of the specific examples you mentioned:

Even if let us say, you are emotionally happy and intellectually satisfied and you are well off economically. You still might want, a better lamp shade,

A new lamp shade may be a physical need (better light), emotional need (nice living space) or it can be a program of wanting bigger, better things.

might want your child to eat less sugar,

This is a need to keep your child healthy.

might want society to be fair, might want less immigrants, might want republicans in power campared to democrats..

This can be a 'a drive', a 'passion' or 'spiritual need' - if you feel that it is a deep desire for you to change those things or create something different and new.

Though quite often, there are programs involved in wanting society to be "the way i want".

 

[Leo40]

Even if let us say, you are emotionally happy and intellectually satisfied and you are well off economically. You still might want, a better lamp shade, might want your partner to kiss you more, might want your child to eat less sugar, might want society to be fair, might want less immigrants, might want republicans in power campared to democrats.. or maybe a house with a better view from the office window. The point is, that regardless of where you are, in this life, you are still driven by these 'wants.'

Hi, Luke:

Everything you have written is based on assumptions. May I suggest to ask yourself:
what do I know? If you are honest with yourself the answer will be: nothing.
This needs to be realized at the deepest level of your being; this is "the dark night of
the soul and the starting point.
This includes the realization that your personality is something you constructed yourself.
This exercise is not for the faint of heart. You need faith that in all this mess there is
your unique essence that wants to be found and liberated.
At any rate that is just my personal take of what the "work" is all about.

 

[luke wilson]

Fair points:

Let us take that the child example. Parents love there children and 'want' the best for there children.

Quote from: luke wilson on Today at 07:34:05 AM
might want your child to eat less sugar,

This is a need to keep your child healthy.

However, we know that despite this, parents probably do the biggest harm to there children. That is because they are the first line of indoctrination. For example, a parent might want his/her child to take more bread. Bread is healthy. He/she grew up in Italy and had bread most of the time. This is the justification the parent uses on himself, to justify imposing this on the child. After all the child doesnt know. It is my job to teach, to educate. However, my point is, regardless of whether it is right or wrong, mistakes can be made. It doesnt matter if the original intention was benevolent or malevolent. The parent has a deep want to safeguard there child. They are driven by this want. You might even call it a need. They do all in there power for this. But surprising we have a world full of wounded people. People wounded first of all by there parents. Parents who had nothing but the best of intentions.

You might argue that the parents didnt have 'perfect' information or knowledge or maybe werent 'open' enough to new research ideas. The counter-argument on my part, will be, what is enough information? What is 'open' enough to new ideas? The point being that, the world right now, is driven by people looking to fulfill there wants, or needs. This is a constant that everyone possesses, from the dictator to the most benevolent of all charity workers. He just wants a fairer, better, more just world, where the down-trodden have a voice and get there fair share.

HOWEVER, none of these is working because the world is way more close to hell than heaven. The beauty about needs or wants, is that you can never get enough!! There will always be more, more you can get, more better food you can have, more better light you can have, a more better relationship, a more better whatever you name it... It has no end to it. No matter where you are, whether you call it a need or a want, the super-yacht is more a need for the billionare the same way shelter is a need to a poor bangladeshy child living in the dumps... It is all a matter of perspective and point of view... The super yacht can provide the billionare with a better opportunity to travel and experience himself and the world, might call this a spiritual need, the same way that house might be a physical need to the poor child. I dont want to be righteous and say the child deserves that house more than the billionare deserves his yacht.

So I was asking if there was any other way? Because something is clearly very wrong here...

Even if let us say, you are emotionally happy and intellectually satisfied and you are well off economically. You still might want, a better lamp shade, might want your partner to kiss you more, might want your child to eat less sugar, might want society to be fair, might want less immigrants, might want republicans in power campared to democrats.. or maybe a house with a better view from the office window. The point is, that regardless of where you are, in this life, you are still driven by these 'wants.'

Hi, Luke:

Everything you have written is based on assumptions. May I suggest to ask yourself:
what do I know? If you are honest with yourself the answer will be: nothing.
This needs to be realized at the deepest level of your being; this is "the dark night of
the soul and the starting point.
This includes the realization that your personality is something you constructed yourself.
This exercise is not for the faint of heart. You need faith that in all this mess there is
your unique essence that wants to be found and liberated.
At any rate that is just my personal take of what the "work" is all about.

True, Leo40. I dont know anything. As you say. Does that mean that I shouldnt question then? Look all I am doing is struggling against a habit. That is my habit of always wanting something. I am sorry if this is a sin.

"The next object of self-observation must be habits in general. Every grown-up man consists wholly of habits, although he is often unaware of it and even denies having any habits at all. This can never be the case. All three centers are filled with habits and a man can never know himself until he has studied all his habits. The observation and the study of habits is particularly difficult because, in order to see and 'record' them, one must escape from them, free oneself from them, if only for a moment. So long as a man is governed by a particular habit, he does not observe it, but at the very first attempt, however feeble, to struggle against it, he feels it and notices it. Therefore in order to observe and study habits one must try to struggle against them. This opens up a practical method of self-observation. It has been said before that a man cannot change anything in himself, that he can only observe and 'record.' This is true. But it is also true that a man cannot observe and 'record' anything if he does not try to struggle with himself, that is, with his habits. This struggle cannot yield direct results, that is to say, it cannot lead to any change, especially to any permanent and lasting change. But it shows what is there. Without a struggle a man cannot see what he consists of.

 

[luke wilson]

Also, just to clarify

what do I know? If you are honest with yourself the answer will be: nothing.

I dont know nothing. Right now, I know I am typing this and saying this. Surely that is somethng. It might be that this is an assumption also? In that case, maybe your statement about me making assumptions, might also be an assumption? That is unless you know something as compared to nothing and one of this 'something' that you know, is that I, a completely different person from you, knows nothing and the best that I can do, if I am honest with myself, is admit this. That is quite something to know. To be able to see other people so clearly and so certainly is one hell of a thing.

I am not being rude...

 

[anart]

Also, just to clarify

what do I know? If you are honest with yourself the answer will be: nothing.

I dont know nothing. Right now, I know I am typing this and saying this. Surely that is somethng. It might be that this is an assumption also? In that case, maybe your statement about me making assumptions, might also be an assumption? That is unless you know something as compared to nothing and one of this 'something' that you know, is that I, a completely different person from you, knows nothing and the best that I can do, if I am honest with myself, is admit this. That is quite something to know. To be able to see other people so clearly and so certainly is one hell of a thing.

I am not being rude...

Actually, yes you are - or at least dancing close enough to bring it to mind.

True, Leo40. I dont know anything. As you say. Does that mean that I shouldnt question then? Look all I am doing is struggling against a habit. That is my habit of always wanting something. I am sorry if this is a sin.

No one said you shouldn't question and no one said you were committing a sin.

What you are doing, however is mental masturbation, (for your benefit alone), and introducing a certain level of noise onto this forum. Perhaps it would be worthwhile for you to work on not posting long wandering posts when you are moved to do so? As a first step, every time you write a post you could then remove 2/3 of the content and trim it down to the very core of the point you are trying to make. This might help you train your mind and your mode of expression a bit.

 

[luke wilson]

Also, just to clarify

what do I know? If you are honest with yourself the answer will be: nothing.

I dont know nothing. Right now, I know I am typing this and saying this. Surely that is somethng. It might be that this is an assumption also? In that case, maybe your statement about me making assumptions, might also be an assumption? That is unless you know something as compared to nothing and one of this 'something' that you know, is that I, a completely different person from you, knows nothing and the best that I can do, if I am honest with myself, is admit this. That is quite something to know. To be able to see other people so clearly and so certainly is one hell of a thing.

I am not being rude...

Actually, yes you are - or at least dancing close enough to bring it to mind.

True, Leo40. I dont know anything. As you say. Does that mean that I shouldnt question then? Look all I am doing is struggling against a habit. That is my habit of always wanting something. I am sorry if this is a sin.

No one said you shouldn't question and no one said you were committing a sin.

What you are doing, however is mental masturbation, (for your benefit alone), and introducing a certain level of noise onto this forum. Perhaps it would be worthwhile for you to work on not posting long wandering posts when you are moved to do so? As a first step, every time you write a post you could then remove 2/3 of the content and trim it down to the very core of the point you are trying to make. This might help you train your mind and your mode of expression a bit.

Ok, my apologies Leo40.

I will try and implement your recommendations in future anart.

Also, I apologise for the noise.

 

[Laura]

Search the forum for "abuse of sex" and notice how similar the flavor of what you have written above is.

 

[obyvatel]

Luke,
To me, there seems to be a repeating pattern in some of the stuff you write. I could be wrong - so take my input fwiw.
There are parts of you (the false personality or predator's mind) which rebel against the idea of the Work - that it may actually lead somewhere. When these parts of you take command of your thinking, what you write has a flavor

[quote author=luke wilson]

I know, G. says that we are incapable of doing anything and anything that happens to us, just happens, but still all the little I's despite there constant changing nature, are always after something. One I wants, praise, another wants a better house, another a better car, another a better lover, another better health for the body etc. Then if we fuse all the I's together, do we just end up with one big I that is still a slave to 'want.'
................

I want to master myself so I can be free, what type of freedom is being talked about? Ok, freedom from programs and external influences, but if you gain that freedom what do you do? You already assume you'll know what to do, as if winning freedom will all of a sudden illuminate the whole path, in my opinion, you'll be free only to realise it counts for nothing, I suppose your new aim will be, now that I am free, I want to [add whatever you desire]. To me it appears, being 'free' of programs, traumas, illusion is equivalent of being 'free' of the universe. if everything reflects everything else, then the matrix is just a 'miniature' version of the universe. HOW DO YOU BECOME FREE OF THE UNIVERSE?
......................

I mean thinking that acquiring a 'special' kind of 'want' the 'holy grail' of all wants will lead to victory, then uhmm, hmm. It seems this kind of victory will be the mother of all traps and from what i've heard of those 4D STS people or just 'STS' nature in itself, I wouldnt put this beyond them or the sheer force of 'STS' energy... If this is a 'game' then there is a trap in here somewhere and the fact that no one is talking about the trap is worrying. It is like, oh look, '4th way' walk that road and it'll lead you straight out. It might be abit rugged, abit narrow, it might be a tough walk but eventually you'll get out.
........................
[/quote]

It seems that the false personality is using terms learned from the Work and then using faulty logic to convince that all this is of no use.
There are certain things that cannot be known until we are at a certain point in our journey - like what happens after we fuse our little I's into a Real I. You can take the words of people who are further along the road on faith and proceed.
There is also another thing you can do. Ask yourself where you were in terms of your views about this world and yourself before you encountered the Work. Then you compare with where you are right now. If you see progress of the kind that you like, then it would tell you something about this path and its methods.
It could also be useful to try and find out what kind of situations trigger the false personality within you to the extent that it completely dominates your thinking. Are there some trigger events - is there some relation with what you eat etc. This may help you to self-observe and put a brake on this type of thinking.

 

[luke wilson]

oh, yes, at the beginning I had problems with applying the work. I think I pinned this down to, a sort of stubornness. I also had problems with reading in general. I much preferred the medium of watching things like documentaries. That is how I found this forum, I was reading the reviews of a documentary after having watched it and there was a link which led to sott then to this forum. At that point I hadnt ever read a whole book. Unless harry potter counts? So I rebelled about the idea of reading but now I have read quite afew books on the recommended list, which for me, if that is the only thing I get, atleast is something.

This post wasnt a rebellion against the work. I am currently reading ISOTM and I am more convinced than ever about the validity of the work. In one short sentence, this whole thread was just about, my idea of struggle with, my idea of what it means to want something.

Ok, there is definately something not right about maybe the way my centres inter-relate to each other and every now and again things might come off wrong but believe me when I say, I dont know what the problem is. If I knew, then I would struggle with it and maybe gain freedom from it. I think anart is right about 'noise.' At the end of the day, this is a research forum, and eventhough I might provide an excellent specimen as to this is what happens when this and that centre steals that energy etc, for most of the part, there is noise on my part which is not considerate at all. I will try my best to put only 'useful' contributions. My apologies on my part.

 

[celtic]

Thinking about this, takes you back to what the Cassiopaeans have told Laura. We are in an third density STS environment. And the only way to completely become free of an animalistic perceptions of wants and needs is to go to fourth level. And they did say there are different ways for us to enlighten ourselves without completely becoming STO.

I think that we need to distinguish between 'wanting something' and 'needing something'.

But isn't needing something a subjective point of view? I mean nature does not owe us anything and needing something is just another form of want. You are desiring to eat to stay alive so you can continue to exist therefore you kill and feed off other animals and plant life.

 

[Laurelayn]

IMHO, this is a "useful" contribution here. I can relate to many of the frustrations Luke brought up here and I am certain there are many on the forum that can as well. coming into the realization that everything I "know" about life is based on lies and deciet and further to begin to see the fact that I really *know* nothing about myself or the world I currently live in is extremely disconcerting and frustrating, especially when I have to live my life surrounded by people that are so locked in their current individual dramas.
I'm locked into my own drama as well, but, I think I may see a way out through the work, and it is called work for a reason, is it not? Dosen't everyone hit plateaus through this where it just all seems so flippin futile you just want to go back to sleep, and then find that you've passed the point of no return and must forge on no matter who you must leave behind so as not to infringe upon their "free will"
Everything about my whole life and being looks different than it did just a few years ago, even a few months ago. Trying to do any of the work, diet, detox, EE, just attempting to honestly look at myself, alone out here with no fellowship of like minded folk is painful and very very difficult.
Sure, the forum is a great sounding board, but it is no substitute for the support of a physical community.
I am lonely for the company of a similar soul to talk to.
I have a high degree of empathy, I always have since I was a child and it is something I haven't learned to turn off, nor do I think I would want to, but it makes me sensitive to the emotional states of those around me. I already spend hours reading here and my books but there I have to go make money, or live on the street. I choose to garden and keep livestock. I can't afford therapy I probably need even if I could find a decent one here.
Now I ramble on..... I just think there are many like Luke and I here

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=Laurelayn]IMHO, this is a "useful" contribution here.[/quote]

No one has discouraged luke from contributing, there’s just been some help offered on how to do it better.