Why does it have to be this way?

[obyvatel]

In one short sentence, this whole thread was just about, my idea of struggle with, my idea of what it means to want something.

The question of "want" is tied to "aim". You may find the cassiopedia entry on aim helpful.

[quote author=luke wilson]
At the end of the day, this is a research forum, and eventhough I might provide an excellent specimen as to this is what happens when this and that centre steals that energy etc,
[/quote]
You are not a research specimen in a laboratory as far as the forum is concerned but an active member of a network of people who are trying to know themselves and the world around them.

[quote author=luke wilson]
for most of the part, there is noise on my part which is not considerate at all. I will try my best to put only 'useful' contributions. My apologies on my part.
[/quote]
You may not always know what is "useful" and what is not. So the idea is to share your thoughts in a way that shows consideration towards the readers. If a post is hard to understand and rambling then it takes much more energy on the part of the readers to read and respond. Imagine if 200 people are reading one post and each has to spend a disproportionate amount of time and energy to figure out what is going on. Many people here squeeze out time for the forum by cutting down on other activities including family time, sleep etc - so it is courteous to write in a way that conveys the core idea in a relatively concise manner.
It is also a very useful exercise for the person writing the post - it helps in organizing and clarifying thoughts. This also means that more time will be needed to write one post which, depending on the individual circumstances, may mean less number of posts overall - at least in the beginning. As time goes on, with practice, less time will be needed to write a concise post.

 

[ana]

Luke, something I find usefull is reading again carefully what I wrote and what others pointed to me. There is a new understanding when we are able to stop and pay attention. It is not the amount of reading that you do, it is the quality an amount of attention you are able to achieve what changes everything.

You will see it is a very different experience, with no urges, no hurry, just availability and openess where you are able to receive impressions in a more profound way.

 

[anart]

IMHO, this is a "useful" contribution here. I can relate to many of the frustrations Luke brought up here and I am certain there are many on the forum that can as well. coming into the realization that everything I "know" about life is based on lies and deciet and further to begin to see the fact that I really *know* nothing about myself or the world I currently live in is extremely disconcerting and frustrating, especially when I have to live my life surrounded by people that are so locked in their current individual dramas.

I think it might be important to understand that the vast, vast majority of us all live in that same state - surrounded by people we cannot talk to.

I'm locked into my own drama as well, but, I think I may see a way out through the work, and it is called work for a reason, is it not?

Yes.

Dosen't everyone hit plateaus through this where it just all seems so flippin futile you just want to go back to sleep, and then find that you've passed the point of no return and must forge on no matter who you must leave behind so as not to infringe upon their "free will"

Yes.

Everything about my whole life and being looks different than it did just a few years ago, even a few months ago. Trying to do any of the work, diet, detox, EE, just attempting to honestly look at myself, alone out here with no fellowship of like minded folk is painful and very very difficult.

I know - most of us are in the same boat. The point is that we continue because it has made a difference, hasn't it? Unlike anything else we've ever encountered. The shining of a light on the truth of our lives and this world makes a difference in one's quality of life - the struggles don't disappear, but they take on a different quality - one that can, if we utilize them, benefit us, instead of just tearing us down.

Sure, the forum is a great sounding board, but it is no substitute for the support of a physical community.
I am lonely for the company of a similar soul to talk to.

Most of us are - yet - here we are and we find ourselves where we fit, in one way or another. To lose ourselves in the pit of self-pity and lonliness is a very tempting thing, but what does that really get us? Nothing - all there is to be done, it seems to me, is a forging ahead with an eye on our aim, which is to Know, to Understand and to Do and Give and hopefully help others understand and Do and Give, until that time when we are all together in this realm or another. Things ARE moving - they are shifting and changing and I don't think any of us can predict where we'll be as a group this time next year - or how that will affect us in our own personal realities.

I have a high degree of empathy, I always have since I was a child and it is something I haven't learned to turn off, nor do I think I would want to, but it makes me sensitive to the emotional states of those around me.

That's a valuable thing.

I already spend hours reading here and my books but there I have to go make money, or live on the street. I choose to garden and keep livestock. I can't afford therapy I probably need even if I could find a decent one here.
Now I ramble on..... I just think there are many like Luke and I here

I think you might have misunderstood what was said to Luke and why, and that you might be applying it to yourself when it's not really applicable to you. That can happen when a person is empathetic, it's a bit like projection. Luke will understand what I'm about to write. Luke has a history of writing and writing and writing as a rather mechanical outlet, as opposed to writing for self-discovery or for helping others. There is a very real difference between the two. One of the things that Luke has been working on is how to learn to communicate in a way that is not just a release of energy for no purpose; that is not just noise or distraction or 'just because I felt better after'. The energy that drives him is being wasted and he will figure out why that is in time, with work - and he'll eventually learn to utilize the negative or restless internal energy in order to discover and transform himself - instead of using it to ramble on about whatever thought has crossed his mind of late.

Luke can't get there without his network pointing out to him when he's 'doing it again'. That's what a network is for.

I think it would be fantastic to hear more from you about where you are and what you're struggling with - that's what your network is for, Laurelayn, and it's right here when you'd like to begin to utilize it. You're not as alone as you think - I only know this because I often think I'm alone, when I'm not.

 

[Leo40]

I am lonely for the company of a similar soul to talk to.

I understand where you are at. I am just picking your mention of loneliness and having nobody to talk to.
This is just a personal example; what I have experienced.
I used to think that there is nobody to talk to, but this was based on my "requirements".
I wanted intellectually stimulating conversation. me. my needs. You see?
Then I tried something different. Just a word of kindness. In other words, thinking about others.
I believe this does help.

 

[anart]

I am lonely for the company of a similar soul to talk to.

I understand where you are at. I am just picking your mention of loneliness and having nobody to talk to.
This is just a personal example; what I have experienced.
I used to think that there is nobody to talk to, but this was based on my "requirements".
I wanted intellectually stimulating conversation. me. my needs. You see?
Then I tried something different. Just a word of kindness. In other words, thinking about others.
I believe this does help.

I could be mistaken, but I think she might have meant having someone of a like mind to talk to, not people in general. I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong on that, though. With that said, your point is, generally, a valid one, I think.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

In one short sentence, this whole thread was just about, my idea of struggle with, my idea of what it means to want something.

I think this might be why anart characterized it as mental masturbation. This was about your struggle with some abstract concept. It's really easy to get caught up with theorizing, intellectualizing, etc. Gurdjieff called it wiseacring, and you do a lot of it. But the Work isn't about theorizing. Work concepts exist to serve a purpose: to help you get to know yourself. To make connections, see things in a new light, make things fit, etc. Yeah, reading about centers and theorizing about them can be fun, but has it helped you? If you're struggling with "what it means to want something", maybe it might be worth while to transfer that struggle over to what you actually want. In other words, apply it to yourself.

I will try my best to put only 'useful' contributions. My apologies on my part.

The most useful contributions will be those that are useful to yourself. If you have a question, ask, but keep it to the point. And before posting, ask yourself if it's really important TO YOU, or if it's just your intellectual 'curiosity' prompting you to philosophize. Remember, you probably won't be able to tell what is useful and what is not, so following anart's advice will be best.

 

[luke wilson]

I think you might have misunderstood what was said to Luke and why, and that you might be applying it to yourself when it's not really applicable to you. That can happen when a person is empathetic, it's a bit like projection. Luke will understand what I'm about to write. Luke has a history of writing and writing and writing as a rather mechanical outlet, as opposed to writing for self-discovery or for helping others. There is a very real difference between the two. One of the things that Luke has been working on is how to learn to communicate in a way that is not just a release of energy for no purpose; that is not just noise or distraction or 'just because I felt better after'. The energy that drives him is being wasted and he will figure out why that is in time, with work - and he'll eventually learn to utilize the negative or restless internal energy in order to discover and transform himself - instead of using it to ramble on about whatever thought has crossed his mind of late.

Luke can't get there without his network pointing out to him when he's 'doing it again'. That's what a network is for.

I think it would be fantastic to hear more from you about where you are and what you're struggling with - that's what your network is for, Laurelayn, and it's right here when you'd like to begin to utilize it. You're not as alone as you think - I only know this because I often think I'm alone, when I'm not.

Sometimes I drive myself into a wall knowingly and I am not sure why I dont stop. Maybe just a sort of mental laziness in that, stopping will require more energy than proceeding, or maybe the inner child thing, or just pure automation, but I am not sure from what external influence. I think it is possible that there might be elements of my inner child in some of my posts. I am not 100% sure but I am starting to think, every now and again, I let my inner child take control and just express himself and he does it in the most unrefined way possible(probably because he hasnt learnt the necessary skills). Other times, I find I am more cohesive, I think that is when the 'older' adult version of me is in control. He still does ramble so I think it runs across the whole spectrum. I have to work on this.

My father for awhile now, has always been in my dreams and now I am having a different perspective on it because I have been wondering why because we dont have the kind of relationship that we do in the dreams. Maybe it is to do with the relationship I have with my inner child, or grown up part of me has with him. Just a thought.

Maybe it was my inner child questioning the adult part of myself, about it always wanting stuff? As a child, I remember most of the time, you just lived in the moment and experienced life and didnt care much about wants or needs etc. Those were more in the domain of the parent, and then at some point it turned into, I want that toy, I want that candy bar etc... So he might just have essentially asked, why does it have to be this way? Like you'd ask your parents, why do I have to eat the greens? Or why do I have to brush my teeth?

I apologise again. If it was my inner child, I have to find a way to let it take the reins but not in such a way that causes these kinds of disasters.

 

[anart]

Maybe it was my inner child questioning the adult part of myself, about it always wanting stuff? As a child, I remember most of the time, you just lived in the moment and experienced life and didnt care much about wants or needs etc. Those were more in the domain of the parent, and then at some point it turned into, I want that toy, I want that candy bar etc... So he might just have essentially asked, why does it have to be this way? Like you'd ask your parents, why do I have to eat the greens? Or why do I have to brush my teeth?

Okay, but that's not a question anyone else can definitively answer for you - you must answer it, eventually, for yourself. It IS a question you can use to examine your own motivations/definitions/perspective and understanding while using the tools provided here to help. In other words, you having a conversation with yourself (which is what you were essentially doing) isn't really very productive for yourself, or others.

I apologise again. If it was my inner child, I have to find a way to let it take the reins but not in such a way that causes these kinds of disasters.

No need for apologies and it's not a disaster - UNLESS you don't learn from it and apply it and therefore continue on as you have before - in that case, it is a disaster only for you. There is a point to all this, remember - unless and until you start to observe yourself and utilize that observation, you're just spinning your wheels. :)

Added: did you search the forum for 'abuse of sex' as Laura suggested? It will give you clue about the sex center and all that energy that's driving you around.

 

[Redrock12]

Luke, imo your last post is completely irrelevant to the-or should I say your-work. Like your first post, you're simply creating noise, again.
Please be more considerate about other forumites. I personally find it debilitating to have to wade through your word salad. It's a waste of time and energy. In fact, I feel as if you are feeding off of us, or me, anyway.
The Work is not a game or something to satisfy your curiosity. It is just that, Work.
Anyway, this is what I see. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[RyanX]

What you are doing, however is mental masturbation, (for your benefit alone), and introducing a certain level of noise onto this forum. Perhaps it would be worthwhile for you to work on not posting long wandering posts when you are moved to do so? As a first step, every time you write a post you could then remove 2/3 of the content and trim it down to the very core of the point you are trying to make. This might help you train your mind and your mode of expression a bit.

Luke, FWIW, I agree with anart's assessment.

You know, your posts remind me of the way I was writing shortly after I separated from my wife. I was journaling and at the same time writing documents to my attorney for the divorce. Even my attorney remarked on my writing style. I had basically sent him a novel, when all he needed were the bullet points. It made me realize that I was really using the writing as a form of emotional release, but it wasn't helping anybody other than myself - and even that was questionable.

Some of what you write, such as your initial post, seems to belong in a personal journal since it doesn't really contribute to helping others on the forum. I think what Anart suggested is good advise. Also, if you do feel the urge to write a wandering post - if the urge is too strong to resist - open up an empty word document and get it all out. By the end of writing, you might feel that you've actually answered your own questions, or at least organized your thoughts enough to formulate some pointed questions to research or ask other forum members.

FWIW.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Some of what you write, such as your initial post, seems to belong in a personal journal since it doesn't really contribute to helping others on the forum.

I've had the exact same thought, FWIW.

 

[cubbex]

Everything about my whole life and being looks different than it did just a few years ago, even a few months ago. Trying to do any of the work, diet, detox, EE, just attempting to honestly look at myself, alone out here with no fellowship of like minded folk is painful and very very difficult.

I know - most of us are in the same boat. The point is that we continue because it has made a difference, hasn't it? Unlike anything else we've ever encountered. The shining of a light on the truth of our lives and this world makes a difference in one's quality of life - the struggles don't disappear, but they take on a different quality - one that can, if we utilize them, benefit us, instead of just tearing us down.

Sure, the forum is a great sounding board, but it is no substitute for the support of a physical community.
I am lonely for the company of a similar soul to talk to.

Most of us are - yet - here we are and we find ourselves where we fit, in one way or another. To lose ourselves in the pit of self-pity and lonliness is a very tempting thing, but what does that really get us? Nothing - all there is to be done, it seems to me, is a forging ahead with an eye on our aim, which is to Know, to Understand and to Do and Give and hopefully help others understand and Do and Give, until that time when we are all together in this realm or another. Things ARE moving - they are shifting and changing and I don't think any of us can predict where we'll be as a group this time next year - or how that will affect us in our own personal realities.

Damn!
Anart without offense I thought you were some bot from the forum that was in charge of looking for wishful thinking and correct others, but reading this post makes me know first that what you said is totally true, and then that you are not some robot. Whatever that’s your purpose, to moderate.

Luke don't know if you are assuming or not, what I say is that I kind of feel that you are desperate and want to force the forum to give you the answers and on silver platter if it’s possible.

But I think maybe the answers you want are inside you, because if its about the 4 way, I felt the same when I began to read about centers and organic portals and B influences and traumas, etc. I said go to hell all I want to know is about aliens and blasters or I don’t know, how, this material and this people without maybe be aware about me reading them, took me to learn a lot about me, and from others. And didn’t care if was hard or not, I did and I will. And I am living and lived some issues about sex and the needs and whatever, but that was not an excuse about for at least keep some path of learning looking for your limbs, you never know what you will know and learn and at some point, not to need something, just accept. And you will live a hell until you say, stop budy this is nonsense let’s change.

You know, what it could be more beautiful on this world than this at this moment??? This is the way it is and have to be in this way, and it is in this way because its the only way know. Tell me if there is other way because indeed, its not easy.

 

[Stevie Argyl]

I also thought that was a super reply that Anart wrote.

 

[truth seeker]

Damn!
Anart without offense I thought you were some bot from the forum that was in charge of looking for wishful thinking and correct others, but reading this post makes me know first that what you said is totally true, and then that you are not some robot. Whatever that’s your purpose, to moderate.

It's actually quite the contrary. Perhaps if you choose to view Anart as someone who cares so much about helping people see objective truth that she is willing to give what's needed in order to achieve that, it would help?

True love is not telling people what they want to hear - that's what the world around us would have us believe. True love is telling people what they need to hear when it is asked for.

Anyone that tells you what you want to hear, or more specifically, what you "like" to hear is doing you a grave disservice. In fact, they are harming you because they are helping you to uphold your illusions. They are helping you to live a lie. Hope that helps. :)

 

[Seamus]

What you are doing, however is mental masturbation, (for your benefit alone), and introducing a certain level of noise onto this forum. Perhaps it would be worthwhile for you to work on not posting long wandering posts when you are moved to do so? As a first step, every time you write a post you could then remove 2/3 of the content and trim it down to the very core of the point you are trying to make. This might help you train your mind and your mode of expression a bit.

Luke, FWIW, I agree with anart's assessment.

You know, your posts remind me of the way I was writing shortly after I separated from my wife. I was journaling and at the same time writing documents to my attorney for the divorce. Even my attorney remarked on my writing style. I had basically sent him a novel, when all he needed were the bullet points. It made me realize that I was really using the writing as a form of emotional release, but it wasn't helping anybody other than myself - and even that was questionable.

Some of what you write, such as your initial post, seems to belong in a personal journal since it doesn't really contribute to helping others on the forum. I think what Anart suggested is good advise. Also, if you do feel the urge to write a wandering post - if the urge is too strong to resist - open up an empty word document and get it all out. By the end of writing, you might feel that you've actually answered your own questions, or at least organized your thoughts enough to formulate some pointed questions to research or ask other forum members.

FWIW.

Hi Luke,

Maybe you could try reading back through your posts before you hit the "post" button? You could try to read it as if it were written by someone else. This might help you to focus your thinking a bit.

I found this thread quite helpful in that regard: Good writing style as defined by George Orwell

George Orwell is best known for his novels, but he was also an essayist. One such essay is about writing and it is called Politics and the English Language (follow the link for the raw text of the essay).

He connects poor writing to poor thought:

[It] is clear that the decline of a language must ultimately have political and economic causes: it is not due simply to the bad influence of this or that individual writer. But an effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely. [...] The point is that the process is reversible. Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble. If one gets rid of these habits one can think more clearly, and to think clearly is a necessary first step toward political regeneration: so that the fight against bad English is not frivolous and is not the exclusive concern of professional writers.

Then he gives some examples about bad writing style, analyzes them, and gives some recommendations for good writing style

You could think of developing a concise writing style as a way of both focusing your thinking and practicing external consideration. Thats how I am trying to approach it anyway, FWIW.