Would you go to war?

[placematt]

Hey Everyone,

A few weeks ago, my grand mother asked me if I would go to war if it happened. This has been stewing over in my mind for a while now as I told her No, unless we were being invaded I wouldn't. I guess because for me, in a physical sense. I don't believe the fight is in the physical. I believe the true war is consciousness, the war for ourselves. Reading the wave series has in some ways confirmed this deep belief that the true fight isn't what we think it is.

I'm just curious what others think. I'm in Australia so I'm so far removed from anything like this, I understand that I could have a very naive attitude. But I'm curious what others think. Would you go to war? And i mean join the army, fight for your country/ government.

My old boy was in the army so i think my attitude stems from seeing how conflict has ruined a great deal of his psyche. But I also see a courage in him that I perhaps I can't see in myself. I guess my stewing over this particular question comes back to the idea of courage. I feel this society promotes courage in the act of physical confrontation instead of ones mental/ soul capacity to do good and to stand up for truth.

Would appreciate what others have to say!

 

[Jono]

I've never seriously contemplated joining the army (I'm in the UK). I'd like to think that if a time came when we were drafted in, I could use my status as a member of the Fellowship to say 'it's against my religion'... but probably a fat chance they would have any of that. But hey, I've got a nice tent and know the woods really well in this area. :)

 

[Gawan]

I'm just curious what others think. I'm in Australia so I'm so far removed from anything like this, I understand that I could have a very naive attitude. But I'm curious what others think. Would you go to war?

To answer your question from my perspective: I would definitely not join the army. Because war is inspired and motivated by psychopaths who are the lucky ones when innocent people fight their wars. Soldiers are imo just the canon fodder from the psychos in the background and national pride, outside enemies (see war on terror) goes in the same direction.

There are somehow two quotes that come to mind:

From Bertold Brecht: "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" and "An intelligent person learns from their own mistakes, but a genius learns from the mistakes of others."

I feel this society promotes courage in the act of physical confrontation instead of ones mental/ soul capacity to do good and to stand up for truth.

Absolutely, beside they promise also much (physical) money for soldiers.

My two cents.

 

[Mikey]

This is a tough question, and I think the decision would depend on the details of the situation one is in. For example, in war time, desertion quite easily sees immediate death penality. Even in times of peace, desertion is illegal and has other penalties. A single person who is deserting in war times probably has to be very smart and strong to survive. A relative of mine fought in WWII. He came home for a short holiday, but he didn't want to return to the front, so he hid in the woods. He let himself caught by the Americans near the end of the war, and so he survived after imprisonment. He had a very long walk home, and was able to live to an old age because of his wits. I think there can't be a categorial "yes" or "no" as an answer. One just has to be very smart and have a great will to survive. A single and isolated person cannot change the outcome of a war, or reduce the lost lives for that matter. The powers against him are just too great. However, if everyone, or many people would not go to war, and would support themselves, form a network, the situation would be entirely different, OSIT.

More infos on Wikipedia: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertion

 

[placematt]

This is a tough question, and I think the decision would depend on the details of the situation one is in.


More infos on Wikipedia: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertion

Hey Data, thanks for your post man. perhaps I'm trying to decipher whether there ever is a morally just cause to go to war.

To answer your question from my perspective: I would definitely not join the army. Because war is inspired and motivated by psychopaths who are the lucky ones when innocent people fight their wars. Soldiers are imo just the canon fodder from the psychos in the background and national pride, outside enemies (see war on terror) goes in the same direction.

I completely agree Gawan!! and thats a huge part why i would never join the armed services because it seems service isn't about actual service. It seems to me its more of a trick. The psychopaths starts the wars and people go because their mates go. kinda like a catch 22.

I guess this question for me which is heavily dependant on the actual scenario, at what cost do we lose more fighting then if we didn't and let what needed to happen, happen. STS and STO ways are dependant on free will. Can the choosing of not acting in war, be an actual choice. Can it be a STO choice even if it leads to death?

Is there a cost to surviving that isn't justifiable? that isn't the fourth way

 

[Mikey]

Hey Data, thanks for your post man. perhaps I'm trying to decipher whether there ever is a morally just cause to go to war.

Gurdjieff says that everything going against your aim is 'evil', and everything which contributes to your aim is 'good'. Confronted with such a war situation, one must formulate such an aim and act accordingly, as tough as it may be. The aim is the key and determines everything else. Try to imagine a couple of scenarios/aims where you would answer the question "Should I go to war?" with either "yes" or "no".

 

[Deleted member 4320]

When I was a child, one of my dreams was that to become a soldier. But it has changed. Today the army (at least as I see it in my country) is looking for people who know the orders and just obey them. Higher positions are hermetic and corrupted, only adequate connections are able to give something. In spite of all, military, even if we talk about killing human beings is a part of the reality and deserves attention. To some extent I am interested in military and security, personal and general safety. I think that in the event of crisis, war better to have the training and knowledge particularly with regard to response at the time of danger, because man without such training behave selfishly hiding behind the other just to survive.

 

[placematt]

Hey Data, thanks for your post man. perhaps I'm trying to decipher whether there ever is a morally just cause to go to war.

Gurdjieff says that everything going against your aim is 'evil', and everything which contributes to your aim is 'good'. Confronted with such a war situation, one must formulate such an aim and act accordingly, as tough as it may be. The aim is the key and determines everything else. Try to imagine a couple of scenarios/aims where you would answer the question "Should I go to war?" with either "yes" or "no".

For me, no scenario really justifies war though or for me to act in war. But thats possibly because i'm afraid. And i think thats why when my grand mother asked me and i said no i didn't think about it as i should. Its like back in school when your taught two wrongs don't make a right and yet in the global aspect thats what nearly every country does. A eye for an eye.

When I was a child, one of my dreams was that to become a soldier. But it has changed. Today the army (at least as I see it in my country) is looking for people who know the orders and just obey them. Higher positions are hermetic and corrupted, only adequate connections are able to give something. In spite of all, military, even if we talk about killing human beings is a part of the reality and deserves attention. To some extent I am interested in military and security, personal and general safety. I think that in the event of crisis, war better to have the training and knowledge particularly with regard to response at the time of danger, because man without such training behave selfishly hiding behind the other just to survive.

I was about to join the army. Had my interview and everything but i decided against it at the last second. One of the best things I have ever done.

When I was young, me and my old boy used to go roo shooting. And for a time there was a thrill in this but soon enough, i came to a very clear understanding which was there is nothing, no aspect of killing that is fun or thrilling. But the act of killing for survival, is necessary. I have no problems butchering animals, with gratitude and a blessed knowing that these animals give me life. In a context of war, I'm unsure if i see a necessity to survive if i lose that which i am. I consider myself someone who isn't violent, who can't comprehend confrontation in a physical manor. But perhaps that is just an obstacle.

Can there be an aspect of war that is separate from all else. Is perhaps to some degree this forum one side of a war in the battle for consciousness? Is the pursuit of knowledge the strategy we choose

Lux i agree that man without training behaves selfishly in disaster so as to survive. But i think that having awareness and knowledge in the aspect of esoteric principles. These enable us to act and respond in a different way than the person without training.

Is all we see in regards to the physical aspects of war, i am personally finding a mirror in what sott, and the cassiopaea forum is. I think that when it comes to Gurdjieffs aim. for me, the act of physical war is far removed as my aim. But I also consider defending myself separate from war.

 

[loreta]

What if war is coming to your country? What options do you have? I am against war, the army. But if I have to defend myself an my family? If the only solution to defend myself is taking arms and fight?


But.

I think about the Spanish Civil War where people like you and me took arms, to defend their country, their government. But myself I don't believe in governments. I don't have those ideals. So if I was in Spain in 1936 I surely choose to leave the country. The idea to kill to defend a government, a country, even words like democracy...is not possible in my mind. I will never kill to defend politicians. Because in fact wars are people or armies defending politics.

If your country goes to war you can choose to be a conscientious objector?

 

[casper]

The war does not solve anything. People get killed, some become disabled for life, psychological problems occur, homes are destroyed, families are separated.
Just look at the recent history who make war and why selfish goals.
I was in the war and never again would not want to pass. The war changed man from the root.
Such a life lesson I do not want anyone to pass.

 

[michaelrc]

I'm just curious what others think. I'm in Australia so I'm so far removed from anything like this, I understand that I could have a very naive attitude. But I'm curious what others think. Would you go to war?

To answer your question from my perspective: I would definitely not join the army. Because war is inspired and motivated by psychopaths who are the lucky ones when innocent people fight their wars. Soldiers are imo just the canon fodder from the psychos in the background and national pride, outside enemies (see war on terror) goes in the same direction.

There are somehow two quotes that come to mind:

From Bertold Brecht: "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" and "An intelligent person learns from their own mistakes, but a genius learns from the mistakes of others."

I feel this society promotes courage in the act of physical confrontation instead of ones mental/ soul capacity to do good and to stand up for truth.

Absolutely, beside they promise also much (physical) money for soldiers.

My two cents.

Kudos, to Gawan's thoughts. I'm a former Marine that served in Vietnam and cannon fodder is the apt term to describe what your wrestling with here. Lessons..., you might never enjoy hindsight again. :(

 

[Konstantin]

On the Balkans i have seen many wars in the last 20 years. And my answer is that i`ll never join any army or go to war. I don't care if its call desertation.
Its very evil to go and kill another people. You don't know them and you have to kill them. I cant hurt somebody just like that.

On the other hand i will defend my children, my family and mu community if somebody attacks them. Maybe in that act of defensing, somebody will get hurt or killed but its not the same as all the wars that i have seen on the Balkan. It will be very hard and traumatizing for me but its the last thing that i can do. So , when you look at war from a wider perspective you can see that always nobody wins, there is no real winner even that one side is always declaring victory.
Its not a courage to join army and enslave and kill countries and people. That is all about how much mentally you can adopt to psychopaths and their way of thinking.
Courage is to mentally fight with other ideas. To try to learn and use that knowledge to help the nation to evolve on a higher level.For that you need to make a big efforts and a lot of work and a lot of sacrifices.That is a courage.
Courage in not to join psychopaths in their imperialistic slaughters and call yourself a soldier. That is not soldier , that is a slave, a vassal who serves their psychopathic masters.
Soldier or warrior fights ( not just physical) to help the nation or community to evolve on a higher level. He fights and helps others to defeat the evil.
You cant physically fight evil. It can be defeated only by knowing evil. Only when you have enough knowledge about evil, then you can prevent evil to spread. That is a soldier, a warrior.

If you attack and kill your so called enemy then you have started one never ending circle. The the other side want revenge and they will do it even many years after that. Then you will want revenge, and its a never ending cycle. That is why you cant defeat evil by war, or fighting it physically.

This is my thinking about joining army and about wars.

 

[WIN 52]

The bottom line is that war becomes a feeding frenzy for things we can't see or touch, whether you win or lose, the results are the same, all becomes a feast.

In cases of self preservation, a person who understands the nature of the struggle does have support. During such times, should one need supernatural ability it will become available when needed. This ability will manifest in the form of "G's" big I. It seems that a person will know exactly what to do, based on their intent or motivation. Self preservation seems to become secondary at that point.

 

[clerck de bonk]

But shouldn't people defend themselves if the situation is like in eastern Ukraine for example? One can not always move out.
Seems to me the discussion here mostly stems from the classical view of War, ie two (or more) aggressors terrorizing each other for whatever contrived reason. Should I join aggressor A or aggressor B? If that is the case the choice is easy, stay out of it, in total, if it's possible.
However, attack and defense are two different things.

 

[Seppo Ilmarinen]

I can think of hypothetical situations where I would and wouldn't take arms. If I'd live in west Ukraine, I would do everything to avoid taking any part in war (except spreading awareness against it). If I'd live in east Ukraine and some psychopaths would bomb the place where I live, there's a chance that I would probably join the rebels, if there wouldn't be other options. I'm living in Finland and if there would be war, it would be against Russia by US/Nato manipulations, so I'd never take any part in that.

Is war always bad? I think it's too black and white to say always yes, because it depends of the context where everything is happening. Julius Caesar tried to change and influence Roman Republic with normal political ways for over 20 years. Only after when he build and used his army, he was able to make changes that would have created a better world, if the psychopaths wouldn't have killed him.