Would you go to war?
- Thread starter placematt
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voyageur said:
I share your views voyageur.
My immediate answer to the question would be No: War is the most barbaric, despicable and vile act that humans can commit on each other, and must be shunned. There is also the thought that" if there is no one signing up for the army, there will be no one to fight the war ".
However, when considering the situation in Eastern Ukraine, the context and circumstances definitely play a part. If my children, family, household, and city were under attack by psychopathic neo-Nazi's just hell bent on killing for fun; and if neighbours i knew all my life were suddenly blown to bits by a deliberate artillery attack, and if there was a resistance to these psychopaths being organised locally led by a person like Zakharchenko (or Putin), my conscience would not allow me to walk away and do nothing....
I guess this question can also represent an inner battle; a battle for defining one's soul, and in joining a war in order to protect your family, friends and livelihood from murder by rampaging psychopaths, the inner battle and outer battle will coincide if the cause is just.
anothermagyar
Dagobah Resident
Niall said:
Yes.
I was always considered myself a pacific, always for peace and so on.
Maybe I was an idiot, like Gurdjieff said. :D
But now, if I would be in the shoes of Zakharchenko, who is defending his neighbors, innocent people, grandmas and children, I would do it.
But when you duped you go to a war because psychopaths made you believe, that's the right thing to do, some false pretense "patriotism" the cause,
hell NO!
This is interesting video from Adam Kokesh, regarding "American Sniper", from FB:
_http://www.mintpressnews.com/video-veteran-marine-served-iraq-discusses-american-sniper/201500/
Fifty years ago, the Australian Government was drawing numbers out of a barrel for conscripts to go to Vietnam to help the "all the way with LBJ" concept. The numbers had your birthdate on them, and if you were 20 years old, you got called up.
Conscientious Objectors were thrown into jail for the duration.
I was attending University of Adelaide at the time, and unfortunately failed my exams, so I was wondering what to do with my life, and with the call-up looming, I determined that I would not be called up into the Army.
I must point out that at the time there was a lot of protesting going on, and 'rent-a-crowd' were holding Moratoriums in the streets.
So I joined the Navy, aged 18. Now ships may only have a life of twenty minutes in a battle, but there is a lot of steel around you to protect you.
Anyway, I ended up going to Vietnam twice, on the HMAS Sydney, and I'm still here fifty years later to tell the tale.
Five hundred and one of those Australians who were called up, and went into the Army, didn't make it back alive.
Some positive aspects of this were that I learned a trade, this really set me up for the rest of my life. I saw the world, well, some of it, but I found that a lot of people in those other countries were a lot worse off than those in Australia. I learned to really appreciate that which I had, including my life.
I also learned to defend myself.
Sometimes in life, you find yourself at a crossroad. It's a good time to call on your higher self for advice.
One thing the Military does, and it does it well, is to indoctrinate you. They have three months to do this, and the lessons you learn in the three months of training they give you stay with you (programmed) for the rest of your life.
You think the people that come back from the war have Post-Traumatic Stress? No, they got it in the first three months of training. Before they went away. All of them.
All there is, is Lessons.
Conscientious Objectors were thrown into jail for the duration.
I was attending University of Adelaide at the time, and unfortunately failed my exams, so I was wondering what to do with my life, and with the call-up looming, I determined that I would not be called up into the Army.
I must point out that at the time there was a lot of protesting going on, and 'rent-a-crowd' were holding Moratoriums in the streets.
So I joined the Navy, aged 18. Now ships may only have a life of twenty minutes in a battle, but there is a lot of steel around you to protect you.
Anyway, I ended up going to Vietnam twice, on the HMAS Sydney, and I'm still here fifty years later to tell the tale.
Five hundred and one of those Australians who were called up, and went into the Army, didn't make it back alive.
Some positive aspects of this were that I learned a trade, this really set me up for the rest of my life. I saw the world, well, some of it, but I found that a lot of people in those other countries were a lot worse off than those in Australia. I learned to really appreciate that which I had, including my life.
I also learned to defend myself.
Sometimes in life, you find yourself at a crossroad. It's a good time to call on your higher self for advice.
One thing the Military does, and it does it well, is to indoctrinate you. They have three months to do this, and the lessons you learn in the three months of training they give you stay with you (programmed) for the rest of your life.
You think the people that come back from the war have Post-Traumatic Stress? No, they got it in the first three months of training. Before they went away. All of them.
All there is, is Lessons.
Very good question! I don't think any of us can truly say with 100% certainty whether we would or would not if we take the law of three into consideration. And which war are we fighting? Lets say you were living in east Ukraine, there's no validity in saying these people are "evil" for fighting against Kiev forces. It's similar to what G pointed out, we cannot know - we can only speculate
Dylan
Jedi
I think if I were in the shoes of the population of Donetsk or Lugansk that I would probably do very much the same as they are. A situation like that would be one of the very few I would feel comfortable donning military gear and a rifle with the intent to kill. I really feel for those people and am very worries for their futures. The illegitimate, western backed junta is horrible.
Dylan said:
A few of you have said this.
Here's a question for you: should the Ukrainian and/or Russian members of our forum, some of whom are very close to this situation in eastern Ukraine - either geographically or because they have family ties there, and thus feel even more strongly than you about the injustice of what's happening there, join the war?
Are they 'answering their conscience' by fighting that battle... or can they 'walk away' yet still do something in terms of 'answering their conscience'/serving something higher than themselves?
Dylan
Jedi
I would think that would be something ony they could answer, I would not place judgement either way. I have said that the only way I would take up arms would be in defence of my family, yet I have the luxury of living in a fairly sparsely populated geographical location; my first move would be to head for the mountains and set up a base of operations there. I don't think the people of Novorussya have that option, they are fairly hemmed in.
As horrible as it is, and I would think it weighs heavily on the consciences of the resistance fighters, it seems like they have taken a final stand against a corrupt and tyrannical government hell bent on bending the 'sub humans' to their will. I don't know what choice they have, or if there could have been a peaceable settlement. But that is neither here nor there at this point; for the resistance in Novorussya, it seems it is fight or die.
Though there is an old quote:
Even the most unjust peace is better than the most just war.
-Philip R. Grant
Though personally, I don't know. I hope I never have to make that choice.
As horrible as it is, and I would think it weighs heavily on the consciences of the resistance fighters, it seems like they have taken a final stand against a corrupt and tyrannical government hell bent on bending the 'sub humans' to their will. I don't know what choice they have, or if there could have been a peaceable settlement. But that is neither here nor there at this point; for the resistance in Novorussya, it seems it is fight or die.
Though there is an old quote:
Even the most unjust peace is better than the most just war.
-Philip R. Grant
Though personally, I don't know. I hope I never have to make that choice.
Niall said:
That is a tough question. It can be applied to every member -in a non distant future, although I hope it takes longer, when the monster of war/genocide/unjustice, etc come at my door, do I "answer my conscience" or do I yet still do something in terms of "answering my conscience'/serving something higher than myself"? there was a thread --do not remember where, about using guns for defense, its somehow similar. I do not have an answer right now.
Some go to war, giving their lives thinking that they are fighting in the right side, for example when the Spanish Civil War. How many young people came to this country, idealistic, good people, young and valiant, giving their lives for something that again, I think, was a propaganda: freedom. They were manipulated. And worst, they killed in the name of freedom. Thousands of them were pawn in a chess game played by colonels and politicians. They died and gave their lives for nothing. War is simply slaughter. Is a big slaughterhouse where soldiers are the hand of the psychopaths.
When you are young you are easily manipulated by the idea that war is necessary, a good thing, a monster you have to fight like a good man, like a good knight. But war is a slaughter. It is ugly, have the visage and the belly of a demon.
But the question is not easy to answer. Maybe another question is: what would be our attitude during war? Or: is there a "good" war? But war is war, a huge and profound nightmare.
The only way to go to war, if necessary, if obliged, would be to help, as a nurse, an ambulance driver but again this image of a ambulance driver is an idealistic one, in my mind, as idealistic as the young man that came here to fight freedom. And again, I think, you are food for the war, war being a big mouth that needs food, is hungry, always.
Can war be a lesson?
My favorite book about war is the book by Martha Gellhorn, The Visage Of War.
http://www.amazon.es/The-Face-War-Martha-Gellhorn/dp/0871132117
Thanks for all the comments, it is really a subject that needs to be thought about.
When you are young you are easily manipulated by the idea that war is necessary, a good thing, a monster you have to fight like a good man, like a good knight. But war is a slaughter. It is ugly, have the visage and the belly of a demon.
But the question is not easy to answer. Maybe another question is: what would be our attitude during war? Or: is there a "good" war? But war is war, a huge and profound nightmare.
The only way to go to war, if necessary, if obliged, would be to help, as a nurse, an ambulance driver but again this image of a ambulance driver is an idealistic one, in my mind, as idealistic as the young man that came here to fight freedom. And again, I think, you are food for the war, war being a big mouth that needs food, is hungry, always.
Can war be a lesson?
My favorite book about war is the book by Martha Gellhorn, The Visage Of War.
http://www.amazon.es/The-Face-War-Martha-Gellhorn/dp/0871132117
Thanks for all the comments, it is really a subject that needs to be thought about.
Niall said:
Yes, I thought about this some more and I guess that in a situation like this, it's probably best to "walk away" - the sense of "patriotic heroism" associated with taking up arms may be a mere program, even if the cause seems noble. In his book "the art of urban survival", Stefan Verstappen says that the chief strategy of survival is "evasion". In other words, in order to survive, it's always best to walk away from trouble if this is possible. And that doesn't have to be selfish - after all, survival is a necessary condition for doing something useful, for helping others. This doesn't mean that it's not necessary sometimes to take risks in order to help others (even speaking the truth can be a great risk in times like these), but getting killed just doesn't help anyone. Osit.
Dylan said:
I think the Donbass resistance can be easily romanticised. I mean it's not very often in this day and age that a popular resistance is able to not only match but consistently defeat their oppressors. Obviously they have help from the east, but it is still a hopeful sight.
But you are right. I don't think anybody in the resistance wants to be killing their brainwashed countrymen, or any humans for that matter.
Once you realise the utter futility of what most people know as "war", that the real war is between spiritual entropy and creation, or psychopaths vs normals and that the bad guys always eventually win, it becomes very difficult to put your heart into a popular war the way most people do. Even if the war is "just", you can't help but see the pointless bloodshed for what is is.
loreta said:
Exactly. Still "food for the moon".
I've been thinking about this question and thread. It's really hard to answer. As was said, it all comes down to AIM in 4th Way Work terms. It's hard to know what one would do when war comes to you, like in Donbass and many other places. Chances are, I wouldn't be the best to take up arms and defend myself and my immediate surrounding people. So I would try to find the best way to serve truth and justice, while avoiding taking part directly in the military conflict.
However, when people are put in a position to either defend or die, it's hard to judge them for fighting, as someone has to do it if they are able, to defend the lives of those being brutally attacked. The other important thing is to know that everyone loses something intangible in war - innocence, we can call it. It's a really horrible world we live in, and life is war of one sort or another, no matter how you look at it. The final decision is how one "fights" entropy for the possibilities of creation to manifest. That is why it is very unlikely for one interested in the Work to find physical war as a way to do battle. Only as a last resort, with no other choice, can it be legitimate, and then the AIM should be the final standard of what one can do to not deviate from it. Support what is right, without participating in actual fighting, if at all possible. Or so I think.
However, when people are put in a position to either defend or die, it's hard to judge them for fighting, as someone has to do it if they are able, to defend the lives of those being brutally attacked. The other important thing is to know that everyone loses something intangible in war - innocence, we can call it. It's a really horrible world we live in, and life is war of one sort or another, no matter how you look at it. The final decision is how one "fights" entropy for the possibilities of creation to manifest. That is why it is very unlikely for one interested in the Work to find physical war as a way to do battle. Only as a last resort, with no other choice, can it be legitimate, and then the AIM should be the final standard of what one can do to not deviate from it. Support what is right, without participating in actual fighting, if at all possible. Or so I think.
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