Would you send a 10 year old to Zimbabwe?

[Erna]

Hi Thiorborn, how are you doing? I must be honest, the influx of "new South African citizens" is worrying me. I do feel sorry for the majority helpless refugees that mean no-one harm, I'm worried about the thugs that are also crossing the border. We all know where they're heading - straight to Gauteng. I don't think we can handle more crime. I was quite surprised today when our deputy minister, Susan Shabangu, adressed the police today and ordered them to "shoot to kill, you were given guns, use them! Make every bullet count". Of cause directly in opposition to our constitution - police can only fire as a very last resort, when their own life is in danger. As much as this stinks of 'police state', we are all having a difficult time to experience this as negative.

We listen to Talk Radio 702 all day at the office, and today they interviewed Bright Matonga, Zanu-PF spokesperson & Deputy Information Minister of Zimbabwe and Trevor Gifford, President of the Commercial Farmers Union of Zimbabwe. Of course they weren't in the studio, the were both interviewed over the phone simultaneously. Listen to how Bright Matonga denies any farm invasions, while Trevor Gifford tells a different story. These Zanu-PF thugs don't usually agree to be interviewed, so it's quite surprising they got him on the line, but what he didn't expect was that they had Trevor Gifford on the other line.

Listen here: _www.pod702.co.za/podcast/bestofredi/20080410Redibest.mp3

I'm glad that Mbeki was forced out of his "turning a blind eye towards his mentor, Mugabe" yesterday when Jacob Zuma met with Morgan Tsvangirai behind closed doors. This thing is turning into a circus...

nemo, I hope your friend's sister make the right decision.

 

[Erna]

 

[Yossarian]

Just my opinion, but something doesn't add up, if it was dangerous enough to send the child out of the country to live in the first place---at some point in the past--and we know that the situation has deteriorated steadily--and it is so bad at present that one must baldly lie on the phone for fear of retaliation and say things like, "(Offtone Sarah): 'Everything is in divine and perfect order, right now and always.' (You know the spin!)." Reason tells us that things must be beyond belief bad!

Also, what about this, "bring the kid here then I'll leave" stuff? Again, it smells bad. I have an overactive imagination, but I suspect a possible hostage or blackmail or some other very dangerous situation may exist.

The point is: none of this adds up. All the evidence suggests that Zim has never been at a more dangerous point in time--so why would a caring parent that sent a child away to be safe now want the child back--instead of leaving to a safe place to visit the child?

 

[thorbiorn]

Hi Erna, thank you, I am alright.

I just listened to the podcast link that you gave, and then invited the lady originally from Zim to hear it also. When I came back, she had taken a piece of paper, written his Bright Matonga and added one word 'lying'. After cooling down she explained a few reasons why. She also said that many Zimbabweans would go back if Tswangerai wins and the situation improves. Not only is Zimbabwe their home country, Zimbabweans sometimes suffer at the hands of local people in SA. To illustrate her point she told me of two illegal immigrants, who had opened a small shop or stand in Pretoria to sell bread and food stuff, a tak shop she called it. Then last month some Black South Africans came and asked them, why they had opened a stand, that they had no right to stay in South Africa, no papers etc. Then they took the two people, tied their hands and feet with cables, covered them with plastic and burned them to death. She thinks people should not take the law in their own hands, illegal immigrants should be taken by police, sent to prison first, and then deported back later. Well, this is easier said than implemented, when local people see millions and millions of people coming into what they think is their country, then it is difficult, and some of them, as you said are thugs. These thugs of course easily give a bad name to those who are not.

I was quite surprised today when our deputy minister, Susan Shabangu, adressed the police today and ordered them to "shoot to kill, you were given guns, use them! Make every bullet count". Of cause directly in opposition to our constitution - police can only fire as a very last resort, when their own life is in danger.

The statement of Susan Shabangu could be a sign, that the Government is threatened by the amount of crime. That everything else has already been tried. Elections in SA are due next year, I heard, so the ANC can not afford the opposition party DA to say that if people vote for them, then they will take a harder stand on crime. The ANC need to come up with the initiative themselves and show they can do it. Also if the police have too many second thoughts about shooting those who do crime, then they end up being shot themselves which lead to less people in the force and less new wishing to join.

From a practical point of view, a 9 millimeter owning friend of mine here in SA was actually given the advice by an experienced police officer, that if he should ever come in a situation, where he needed to use it, he should 'shoot to kill', aim for the heart, because then the thug can not harm, which he might be able to if merely wounded. Also if the criminal would later go to court, he can not tell a story and make the victim go to jail. It is difficult to write this, but this is the situation in short. I do not have a gun and I am happy, I do not have one, but if I had to live here for years; would I go through the training and get a license? No, but I think I might move out, if it got hotter than my intuition and instincts could handle.

Bright Matonga did say something, I think is true; Zimbabwe is going alone without support, if other governments were not supported from outside, those countries would also be in difficulties. He of course did not enter into, why it is not supported, after all he is a deputy minister of information, he is used to lie and did a good job of it, Mugabe should keep him, if he continues as president.

 

[Erna]

The listened to that interview again, it cuts off near the end, I sent an email to the radio station today and they said they'll fix it. Should be fixed by now.

'lying'. After cooling down she explained a few reasons why.

Of course his lying. That's what's expected of him. After the interview the ol' man is going to give him a "brrêêênd nieu faaarrrrm for a prraasint", "plas eee brrêêênd nieu Marsêêdiess Bêênz with ama coating and bullat prroef windows".

tied their hands and feet with cables, covered them with plastic and burned them to death.

I hear those stories too from our domestic worker, of Zimbabweans as well as Mozambicans. They are very cruel.

illegal immigrants should be taken by police, sent to prison

Unfortunately Zimbabweans already occupy 70% of our prisons, there's no more place.

he should 'shoot to kill', aim for the heart,

When they're in your house, who wouldn't shoot to kill, knowing how they kill - not the quick 'n eeezy way...

if other governments were not supported from outside

if governments didn't slaughter all their commercial farmers, there would be food to eat.

 

[thorbiorn]

if governments didn't slaughter all their commercial farmers, there would be food to eat.

While you posted, I began to work on the question of farmers being evicted or killed.

Zimbabwean deputy minister of information Bright Matonga in the radio interview with Radio 702 mentioned as part of his defense against the land policies in Zimbabwe, that many white farmers have died in South Africa. He mentioned the numbers 1200-1500 and underlined that the land re-distributions in his own country have not been that violent. The interviewer did not accept this suggestion, saying these were just crimes.

After some time of looking I came across some Youtube with clips about the South African farm murders. Below you find the links followed by some clips from Zimbabwe so one can see the difference between the two. The titles are the ones given by the Youtube posters. My comments in brackets. I have added more clips than just about farmers, as I think one needs to see it from several sides including history.

Sky News report on racist farm murders in South Africa
_http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2E9oz4dfLs&feature=related

Farm murders in South Africa Part 1 of 2
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S71PbichSw&feature=related

Farm murders in South Africa Part 2 of 2 (some serious considerations of what considers a genocide; really sobering)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X38CW6l-em4&feature=related

New South Africa - Why the Exodus?
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAw3VHfHwe0&NR=1

New South Africa- A country ruled by criminals
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxDNPwbLvQE&NR=1

South Africa: The Poor Are Getting Richer
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpzeuevsNMM&feature=related

Poor Whites - South Africa
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFj0HdW2iDs&feature=related

South Africa: Black Economic Empowerment (The idea behind BEE)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhS8MJFXSPU&NR=1

Impressions of South African (some tourist impressions)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjTxVmQXAcw&feature=related


Moving to Zimbabwe

Zimbabwe's Ancient Ruins Part 1
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Kdhyj2kc6c&feature=related

Zimbabwe at it's best (A film for tourists (rich), nice nature pictures)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvfDJ2nQgDQ&feature=related

From Rhodesia to Zimbabwe (The history of the country in short)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJPsD41qnA4&feature=related

The Last Word In Rhodesian (One side of the history with song)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azqqfQc61c4&NR=1

Zimbabwe farm song - Robert Mugabe seizures of white land (Humour and song)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saHbs3mVbWw&feature=related

Robert Mugabe Song
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXkBZBx7FH0&NR=1

Zimbabwe National Anthem (or so it goes)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sqH4t4Hl3A&feature=related

Our Zimbabwe (Song and some pictures)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXY6nsDP4i0&NR=1

Mubabe's Famine (Part 1 of 4) (Only saw parts of the first.)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c87YTNDaCs&feature=related

Inside a Failed State – Zimbabwe (well done documentary from October 2007, much taken in Bulawayo)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPKGZreusoQ&feature=related

Torture and Violence in Zimbabwe (has pictures of the opposition leader and others beaten really badly)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QMlt4Pc5iI

Africa you never see on tv (Has very beautiful pictures set to song.)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvC64lWeu-s&feature=related

Southern Africa is full of dramatic history, rises and falls of human dignity. In past and present one can find the traces of the influence of pathocrats. The summary http://www.sott.net/articles/show/153239-How-Societies-Regress-to-Become-Pathocracies explains it well.

Personally living in an environment of such contrasts, insecurities, hopelessness, and watching these clips, I began to ask myself: ‘What would Jesus have done if he had lived in Zimbabwe or South Africa in our time?’ On _http://www.cygnus-study.com/ under ''Extra Biblical'' there is ''Q: The Lost Sayings Source'' where one encounters some of the most radical expressions attributed to him.

In the light of this Q book, some problems could be solved; all those who have, would give to all those, who either ask or take, until the givers or victims depending on the circumstances, have no more left, or the takers stop taking. However Gurdjieff remarked some place, that there are few Christians in the world, because who can follow him? So this solution just mentioned is hypothetical. And although I said in a previous post, that I should not like to own or use a gun, it is quite possible that my safety so far, is because somebody with more guts than I have, use and used their guns. So in practice I have hardly any solution good enough to solve any problem; there is very little I can do except gathering a bit more knowledge every day. This night I got it partly from watching the clips I posted links to. A few of them were eye-opening others little better than entertaining, although these lighter ones helped to swallow the bitter pills. And while I watched and worked I had the alarm system switched on, the alarm remote nearby, and the cellphone too, just in case. And now it is morning. Another night passed.

In Southern Africa there is a lot of attention invested in individual or group survival. Does this pressed situation divert from giving attention to something that perhaps might be more important like http://www.sott.net/articles/show/151954-Meteorites-Asteroids-and-Comets-Damages-Disasters-Injuries-Deaths-and-Very-Close-Calls or the questions of the soul? Or is it that the situation of having death hanging around wakes more people up?

I shall end this post with something moderately uplifting, the five Reiki principles that were expressed by the Meiji Emperor in a poem, which then later Dr Usui used to give to his students.

Just for today, do not get angry, do not worry, be thankful, work hard, be kind to others.

 

[Erna]

The link to the radio interview I posted earlier in this thread has been restored in it's entirety.

 

[Erna]

Bloodshed torments Zim

Zim's bad neighbour

 

[thorbiorn]

I'm glad that Mbeki was forced out of his "turning a blind eye towards his mentor, Mugabe" yesterday when Jacob Zuma met with Morgan Tsvangirai behind closed doors. This thing is turning into a circus...

Erna, from this statement and your link to 'Zim's bad neighbour' I gather that you feel as if embarrassed that President Mbeki has not been more outspoken in his criticism against Mugabe. But if President Mbeki will have to mediate, is his best option not to remain as neutral as possible rather than to take sides?

Or perhaps President Mbeki has other reasons: perhaps he admires Mugabe for his courage with his landreform, or perhaps he knows that Zimbabwe is not going to be that different, if Morgan Tsvangirai wins, or perhaps he understands that the practice of politics is not so easy, as the idealism he once cherished and which the author of 'Zim's bad neighbour' Peter Tatchell decries, that he no longer is true to. Or maybe President Mbeki is so enshrouded in problems, that events across the border is not a reason for a sleepless night, or maybe he is aware, that what is happening in Zimbabwe could also happen in South Africa, if the prices on food and energy keep rising, and when the transfer of land from those who have to those who do not moves ahead in the coming years.

Here are a couple of links to some of the issues President Mbeki faces:
Apartheid: Dead or alive? A POINT by Cosmas Desmond
_http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=337055&area=/insight/insight__comment_and_analysis/
this article has a COUNTERPOINT by Ferial Haffajee:
_http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=337054&area=/insight/insight__comment_and_analysis/

And then I found an article by a zionist and conservative writer, which for what it is worth does have a couple of interesting considerations:

At some point in the reams of repudiations and recommendations American writers issue authoritatively about Zimbabwe, they shift mysteriously to the passive voice. Allusions are made to a Zimbabwe where all was sweetness and light. One is told that once-upon-a-time, this helter skelter of a country used to export food. That not so long ago, life expectancy, now 33 years, was 60 years; that in that bygone era, unemployment, now over 80 percent, was extremely low; that Zimbabwe had the “best health care system in Africa,” and the highest literacy rates.



Mugabe reversed all this. That much we know. But who was the Prince among Men responsible for the good times? We are never told. The phantom was Ian Smith, prime minister of Rhodesia, RIP. Smith was ostracized by the international community which refused to recognize his minority rule, and treated him like it treated Saddam Hussein, with boycotts and sanctions. The British would not rest until Smith ceded power. When Mugabe was elected Leader for Life in 1980, he celebrated the West’s stupidity by committing his first major massacre in 1983. While Dr. Robert Mugabe was eliminating 20,000 innocent Ndebele in Matabeleland, his pals in the US were busy bestowing on him honorary doctorates. By the time the Queen of England knighted Sir Robert Mugabe in 1994, he had already done his “best” work.



Yes, Mugabe is plenty cruel. Always has been. At least as cruel as the Iraqi Shiite security forces we’re training and sponsoring, which double up as death squads in their spare time. The “humanitarian disaster” of their making—and ours—is everywhere apparent in Sunni neighborhoods.



The American Founders may have attempted to forestall democracy by devising a republic. Contemporary Americans, however, refused to rest until South Africa too became a democracy. It’s a funny thing, then, that President Thabo Mbeki hardly ever protests Mugabe’s undemocratic antics. But then Mbeki himself is extremely busy—busy implementing a slow-motion version of Mugabe’s program. As columnist Andrew Kenny has observed:



In South Africa, the main instrument of transformation is Black Economic Empowerment (BEE). This requires whites to hand over big chunks of the ownership of companies to blacks and to surrender top jobs to them. Almost all the blacks so enriched belong to a small elite connected to the ANC. BEE is already happening to mines, banks and factories. In other words, a peaceful Mugabe-like programme is already in progress in South Africa.



“Peaceful” is not the right word. The career criminals pillaging, raping and massacring their way across South Africa are certainly in the same league as the Iraqi Shiite death squads and the Zimbabwean state terrorists. My point? Mbeki (South Africa), Mugabe (Zimbabwe), Maliki (Iraq): they’re our boys. We put them there.



The US’s policy toward Rhodesia was slightly more nuanced, given that it equated African majority rule with Marxism. But once Jimmy Carter came to power, Marxism was no longer an impediment to mobocracy. The US joined the UN, Britain and the rest of the international community in a commitment to ensconce that sexy freedom fighter, Mugabe. The rest is history—as is post-colonial Africa.



The peanut gallery’s messiah du jour is Morgan Tsvangirai of the Zimbabwean Opposition Party. They delude themselves that if not for the megalomania of one man—Mugabe—freedom would have flourished in Zimbabwe, as it has in the rest of Africa.

Today I went to the local CNA and saw a book on the shelf called 'Exceutive Outcomes' by Eeben Barlow, who was the founder of this Private Military Company. The book depicts its history as he saw it. On the last half page in his 'Afterword', he explains that during the time while the company was operative, he realized that there were strong international forces interested in the chaos that Africa finds itself. When I researched the history of South Africa and the ANC while writing posts for the 'Travelogue thread' I also found evidence or better the signs of the shadow of this international influence on the political life of South Africa. Regarding the 'international influence' see also about the Super Class in http://www.sott.net/articles/show/153826-Shaping-Conventional-Wisdom

In the interview with Bright Matonga, to which you gave a link, he says in his defense of why the land reform has not yet brought a lot of food to the tables, that it took the white farmers a 100 years to get it up to speed, or to where it was, when they were driven off the land. Although I am not completely convinced by his time frame, the point he may like to make is, that within a 100 years, the descendants of the people who drove the farmers off will get it to where it was.

If it was not because I expect something big happening on the planet, I would say Bright Matonga might be very realistic. So maybe Mbeki knows what is in store when his/their land reform gets fully implemented, that farmers do not learn overnight, and therefore they can not do it better than Mugabe. On the other hand the ANC have to do it, they can not afford to have millions of unemployed people in the cities.

What I often find is that the more one goes into the details, the less easy it is to see an easy way out, and I can understand why some citizens like to move out of South Africa as some of the Youtube links I posted earlier also explained. However interestingly enough last weekend I chanced to meet some people, who had a different story. They said, that some psychics they were in contact with do not usually encourage people when asked about the prospects for moving out of South Africa. They think that South Africa will weather the Earth Changes well, that South Africa is the most spiritual place in Africa and Pretoria the most in SA. I do not know, if this is so of course, in any case it may not be wise to generalize, since everyone has a different mission.

Zimbabwe is in a bad shape or is it just leading the way? One of these psychics, my friends had been in contact with was of the opinion that by 2029, there would only be 1 billion left on the planet. So like in Zim it might be that the funeral business is going to hit an all time high.

 

[thorbiorn]

Tried a web (facade.com) based I Ching for Mbeki's best line of action for Zim:

The present is embodied in Hexagram 38 - K'uei (Opposition): Notwithstanding the presence of opposition, in small matters there will still be success.
There are no changing lines, and hence the situation is expected to remain the same in the immediate future.
The things most apparent, those above and in front, are embodied by the upper trigram Li (Fire), which represents brightness and warmth.
The things least apparent, those below and behind, are embodied by the lower trigram Tui (Lake), which represents joy, pleasure, and attraction.

Not always easy, eh.

 

[Erna]

Thorbiorn, we should probably be stating a new thread on this, since it's now about Zimbabwe and how things are evolving on a daily basis.

At 16:00 this afternoon (2 and a half hours ago) Morgan Tsvangirai held a live press conference here in Joburg. He's quite a funny man, considering the situation he finds himself in :) I like this man, he says the right things, but then again, so did Uncle Bob 20 years ago.

Listen or watch here

China has shipped tens of thousands of small arms to the Zimbabwe Defence Forces, probably in an attempt to crush any attempts to unseat Robert Mugabe from power.

The vessel was cleared today and the consignment is on it's way to Zimbabwe. The Chinese vessel is still in Durban harbour, it's called An Yue Juang.

It carries 3 million rounds of ammunition for AK47 rifles, 1 500 rocket propelled grenades and 3 500 mortar bombs.

China has always supplied the Zimbabwean government with arms, so that's nothing out of the ordinary. It's just the timing of this particular consignment that's raising a few eyebrows. There are unconfirmed reports of Chinese soldiers being deployed on the streets of Harare.

 

[thorbiorn]

Morgan Tsvangirai speaks as a President and by his short, moderate non-offensive speech invites people to support him. And in spite of new weapons, President Mugabe is in difficulties, yes he may have the support of the Chinese, but in view of the coming Olympics, is it realistic that they will go to extremes in their support? For them after all Zimbabwe is not as important as Tibet.

You are right about the lifted eyebrow, maybe Mugabe was withholding the results until his amu arrived :/

According to _http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/models/ka50.html one magazine holds 30 cartridges/rounds. So 3 million rounds is enough to fill up 30.000 magazines, sufficient to arm an army.

Fortunately what I have seen of Morgan Tsvangirai so far, does not lead me to conclude that he would fight with Mugabe, even if someone offered him weapons. But perhaps the weapons are partially for those, who have taken over the farms, so that even if Morgan Tsvangirai does come to power there will be some agreement that the farmers, even those evicted last can not come back. Did not Bright Matonga, Zanu-PF spokesperson & Deputy Information Minister of Zimbabwe in the 702 talk not issue a threat to anyone who would even contemplate this?

On another note a lot of small arms in Zimbabwe, is that really good news for South Africa? I thought the Ak's from Mozambique were sufficient.

 

[Erna]

There are unconfirmed reports of Chinese soldiers being deployed on the streets of Harare.

Correction: There are unconfirmed reports of Chinese soldiers being deployed in Mutare.

Morgan Tsvangirai speaks as a President and by his short, moderate non-offensive speech invites people to support him.

I really enjoyed the interview, we were still at the office when it started, and usually everyone 'scoots' at 5, today they stayed to listen to the whole press conference. I feel like I'm witnessing history in the making, it gave me goose pimples, especially the part where he says "in Zimbabwe we don't have press freedom, so I'm using South Africa's press freedom to speak to my people".

Thorbiorn, the question isn't whether China is supporting Mugabe and Zanu-PF, the question is why? WHY-WHY-WHY-WHY-WHY?!?!?!?

What was their interest in 1980 when the helped Mugabe in the Rhodesian gorilla war for independance, and what is their interest 28 years later? There's no sticky black rivers flowing underneath Mugabe's feet? What is Mugabe giving them that Ian Smith wouldn't and Morgan Tsvangirai won't. Suddenly the enemy has a new face.

The US are tip-toeing around the situation, cause just now China sells all those US treasuries, or am I being too 'conspiratorial'.

If you ask me, Morgan Tsvangirai doesn't know what he's up against. His "as a matter of factly" approach to the whole China involvement surprises me. In fact, from the interview I got the impression the he was surprised by the journalist's 'China question' as well.

I don't know. Thoughts? I suck at connecting the dots...

 

[Erna]

Chinese ship with ‘arms for Z‘babwe‘ docks in SA

Chinese intervention fears

 

[Mr. Premise]

Hi Erna,

Here are some thoughts in response to your question.

Back in the late 1970s remember that Chinese imperialism was way underdeveloped compared to the U.S. and the Soviet Union's and their economy was also much weaker then. They basically would go offering aid (usually engineering expertise and labor) around Africa because they were looking for friends wherever they could find any. The Soviet Union basically did the same in Africa. It was understood to be in Europe's sphere of influence, but why not make some low-cost moves that might pay off big in the long run. China always thinks long-term.

Ian Smith was a white supremacist and in the late 1970s, hard as it may be to believe now, China was positioning itself as a left-wing, anti-imperialist, non-aligned nation. There would be no way they would ever consider supporting the white supremacist, Anglo regime of Ian Smith. Remember, they think long-term. Anyone could see that Rhodesia and apartheid South Africa were on the wrong side of history. Also in 1980, Mugabe was a hero in what was then called the Third World and also in left circles in the West. As a white South African you may have missed out on that ;)

Now China can directly challenge U.S. imperialism with their own. So the attraction of Mugabe is that he is an old client and he is opposed by the U.S. If he were supported by the U.S. we probably wouldn't have heard much about the atrocities there. Think of Mobutu. He was one of the worst, most vicious rulers ever, but he was a good friend of George Bush Sr. You never heard the U.S. white supremacists complaining about Mobutu like they have about Mugabe. Mobutu only hurt other blacks, he didn't take land from white farmers (weren't any in Zaire).

Starting in the 1990s the U.S. started taking a much more active role, or much more overt role, in Africa. Before they let the old European colonial powers have a role (France in North and West Africa, Britain in East and parts of West Africa, etc.) Since the 1990s the U.S. has elbowed aside the Europeans and made a grab. It is understandable for strategic reasons that China would work to counter those moves.

Thorbiorn, the question isn't whether China is supporting Mugabe and Zanu-PF, the question is why? WHY-WHY-WHY-WHY-WHY?!?!?!?

What was their interest in 1980 when the helped Mugabe in the Rhodesian gorilla war for independance, and what is their interest 28 years later? There's no sticky black rivers flowing underneath Mugabe's feet? What is Mugabe giving them that Ian Smith wouldn't and Morgan Tsvangirai won't. Suddenly the enemy has a new face.